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Giffords and Kelly Launch PAC; Interview with Rep. Ron Barber; Interview with Piers Morgan; James Holmes' Trial Day Two; Debt Ceiling Looms

Aired January 08, 2013 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": I'm Carol Costello.

"CNN Newsroom" continues right now with Ashleigh Banfield.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": Thank you, Carol. Hi, everybody. It's good to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

Gabby Giffords says enough. That is her response to the slaughter of 26 people in Newtown, Connecticut, in an interview with ABC News.

And that's why Giffords, alongside her astronaut husband, Mark Kelly, are launching this, a political action committee and website today and it is aimed at curbing gun violence.

It's called Americans for Responsible for Solutions and, on the website, they say that they're going to try to raise money -- enough money necessarily to, quote, "balance the influence of the gun lobby," end quote.

You might remember it was two years ago today that a gunman shot at Gabby Giffords. And shot her in the head. This was during a Tucson political event where six people were killed. Twelve others were wounded.

And one of the people wounded was Ron Barber. Ron Barber's Gifford's aide. He was elected to fill her seat on Capitol Hill and is kind enough to join us by telephone now.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us today. I really appreciate this. Could you lay out a little bit more for me about this new initiative?

REPRESENTATIVE RON BARBER (D), ARIZONA (via telephone): Good morning. I'm sorry. I wasn't able to hear you very well. Could you say that question again?

BANFIELD: Sure, Congressman Barber, just, if you could, give me a few more fuller details about Gabrielle Giffords and her husband's new initiative that they are laying out today?

BARBER (via telephone): Well, from what I understand and I've talked with Mark, of course, about this, Gabby, their goal is to engage the country in a reasonable and rational conversation about gun violence and how it might be prevented in the future, particularly mass shootings such as we've here in Tucson that both the congresswoman and I were involved in and also to do what they can do raise public awareness about the issue.

So, I really welcome what they're doing and I think it's important that we have more and more people involved. I've seen a groundswell, actually, of interest in this issue, particularly since the shootings in Connecticut.

It affected all of us deeply. It certainly affected me as a grandparent to see those children's faces in the paper and seeing behind them my grandchildren's faces.

So, to me it's important that we finally move from talking about the issue to actually taking some appropriate action and I'm going to be involved with that in Congress as a member of a task force that seeks to end or prevent gun violence.

BANFIELD: So, apart from the task force and the politics involved, there's money. There's a lot of money involved and critics say the NRA is almost too powerful to go up against.

So, those who are lobbying for gun control feel that they're somewhat powerless against that big of a lobby group.

It seems to me that this is really where the target for Gabrielle Giffords and Mark Kelly might lie, is to try to raise enough money to go head to head, but is that really possible?

BARBER : Well, I think it is possible and you're right. Money does make a difference in communicating information and getting a message out.

For my part, as a member of the congressional task force, I'm planning on introducing, reintroducing, actually, a piece of legislation that I introduced last session, specifically having to do with mental health issues, which I think is a huge part of the concern that we are dealing with here. I formed a mental health task force back here at Tucson.

At every level, I believe, local state and federal officials, elected officials must engage the people that they serve. As a Second Amendment supporter, I really believe that there is a right to bear arms and it's been confirmed by the Supreme Court, but I also believe that there have to be some limits.

And the assault weapon that was used to shoot 19 of us in Tucson within 45 seconds, killing six, really good people, my colleague Gabe Zimmerman, among them, and Christina Taylor Green, we have to act.

We have to act on the mental health side and we have to do what we can to limit or eliminate access to these high-powered assault weapons and the high-capacity magazines that allowed so many people to be shot in such a short period of time.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. Look, as powerful as the NRA is, it is not easy to fight Gabby Giffords. She has an enormous amount of support not only among her former congressmen, but across the country as well and she does elicit a lot of sympathy.

Is that something that Miss Giffords and her husband think really could work to their advantage because how do you go up against Gabby Giffords and fight what she's doing?

BARBER: Well, the congresswoman, as you point out, is not only a national inspiration to all of us, but actually has a worldwide image that's very positive and certainly her engaging as with Mark engaging, it's going to help a lot.

But let me just say something about the issue of going up against, as you point, the NRA. You know, there are a lot of NRA members in this country and we have significant evidence to suggest that they're not all opposed.

In fact, there may well be a majority that are in favor of some limitations on the assault weapon availability. And let me just give you a story from a visit I had in Wilcox, Arizona, which is a very small community, a rural community down to the south of Tucson near the border.

I was down there for a meeting on the day the children were killed in Connecticut. And as I was leaving the meeting, an 80-year-old farmer who's been generations in the business of farming chili down there said to me, Ron, I'm a lifelong member of the NRA. I've had a gun since I was a boy and I just love to hunt.

But Ron, you've got to go back to Congress and do something about these assault weapons.

So, I take that as an example of perhaps many, many more NRA members who feel differently.

This is not about taking away people's guns. It's about preventing mass shootings and doing so through mental health services and reducing access to these assault weapons and the high-capacity magazines that shot us in Tucson.

BANFIELD: Congressman Barber, I hope you're doing well. How is your health since that horrible shooting and your injuries?

BARBER: Well, I'm doing well. You know, my leg below the knee on the left side is without nerves these days. It has been since the shooting and that's not likely to change.

But I feel very invigorated to be a member of Congress, honored to be serving my community. And, now that this is a new issue, an important new issue that I'm engaged in and will look forward to having some success with my colleagues in Congress.

BANFIELD: Congressman, thanks for being with us and the best to you.

BARBER: My pleasure. Take good care. Bye-bye.

BANFIELD: Ron Barber, joining us live on the telephone on this issue. You know, lately it has become pretty clear that a fair number of people who passionately defend the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms, defend that amendment with very little regard for the First Amendment. That's the right to free speech.

And I want to be very specific here. More than a hundred thousand people signed this petition on the White House website to deport a friend of mine, a guy I work with here at CNN, Piers Morgan, and they're taking aim because he's a British citizen and because he has very strong views on gun control.

Piers wants background checks. He wants more money for mental health treatment and he wants more control over assault weapon sales. Since Newtown, especially, he has been making that position clear, again and again.

And, last night, Piers tried to have a conversation, a conversation with a talk show host who spearhead that had position to kick him out of this country. And I want to show you how that conversation went.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIERS MORGAN, HOST, "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT": Why do you want to deport me?

ALEX JONES, GUN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, we did it as a way to bring attention to the fact that we have all of these foreigners and the Russian government, the official Chinese government -- Mao said political power goes out of the barrel of a gun. He killed about 80 million people because he's the only guy that had the guns.

So, we did it to point out that this is globalism and the megabanks that control the planet and brag that they've taken over in Bloomberg, AP, Reuters, you name it, brag that they're going to get or guns, as well.

They've taken everybody's guns, but the Swiss and the American people. And when they get out guns, they can have their world tyranny. While the government buys 1.6 billion bullets, armored vehicles, tanks, helicopters, Predator drones, armed, now in U.S. skies being used to arrest people in North Dakota, the Second Amendment isn't there for duck hunting. It's there to protect us from tyrannical government and street thugs.

Take the women in India. Your piece earlier on CNN, I was watching during Anderson Cooper's show. Didn't tell you that the women of India have signed giant petitions to get firearms because the police can't and won't protect them.

The answer is -- hey, wait a minute. I have FBI crime statistics that come out a year late, 2011, 20-plus percent crime drop in the last nine years, real violent crime, because more guns means less crime.

Britain took the guns, 15, 16 years ago, tripling of your overall violent crime. True, we have a higher gun violence level, but overall muggings, stabbings, deaths, you -- those women raped that woman to death with an iron rod four feet long. You can't ban the iron rods. The guns, the iron rods, Piers, didn't do it.

The tyrants did it. Hitler took the guns. Stalin took the guns. Mao took the guns. Fidel Castro took the guns. Hugo Chavez took the guns and I'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms.

It doesn't matter how many lemmings you get out there on the street, begging for them to have their guns taken. We will not relinquish them. Do you understand? That's why you're going to fail and the establishment knows, no matter how much propaganda, the republic will rise again when you attempt to take our guns.

My family in the Texas revolution against Santa Ana, my family was at the core on both sides starting that because Santa Ana came to take the guns at Gonzales, Texas.

Piers, don't try what your ancestors did before? Why don't you come to America, I'll take you out shooting, you can become an American and join the republic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That was a very long answer to one question, which is, why do you want to deport me? I'm still not sure that why we entirely got the answers to that question.

But the man he wants to deport is on the telephone with me now. Hi, Piers.

MORGAN (via telephone): Hey, how are you?

BANFIELD: Well, I'm OK. I guess I want to ask how are you? That was quite an interview last night and I'm curious as to what you think the take-away is for everyone who was watching?

MORGAN: Well, honestly, I mean, he's now trending worldwide on Twitter and has been for pretty much since the show went out and I can't think of a better advertisement for gun control than Alex Jones' interview last night.

It was startling. It was terrifying in parts. It was completely deluded. It was based on a premise of making Americans so fearful that they all rush out to buy even more guns.

It showed no compassion whatsoever to the victims of gun shootings and, you know, the kind of twisted way that he turned everything into this assault on the Second Amendment is exactly what the gun rights lobby people do.

And it's a lie. It cannot be allowed to continue. They have to be confronted and challenged, occasionally, as with last night, I think silence was the best weapon against him because he just dug himself an ever bigger hole.

And the general reaction, I think, has been one of real horror that somebody with such a voice, a platform as Alex Jones -- he has millions of Americans listen to his show every week and he spouts this kind of dangerous nonsense.

BANFIELD: So, at the same time, there are a lot of people, as you mentioned, who do listen to him and do agree with him and are fearful that someone is going to take their guns away.

I know you really couldn't get a word in edgewise. I watched the interview live last night. I wanted to hear your point that you were making.

What is your point? Do you think -- and supporters of yours -- think that all guns should be taken away from Americans?

MORGAN: No. Look, I mean, I honestly believe the only way to ever ruler any gun murder is to remove all guns, but that's not a practical solution to America's problem. There are 300 million guns in circulation. They're never going to get those out of circulation, so you have to be realistic in the goals and in what you're trying to achieve.

What I've noticed since I've been on air at CNN, nearly two years now -- it will be two years next week -- is there's been a proliferation in the scale of mass shootings, a sort of horribly familiar pattern of deranged young men, in particular, getting their hands on these AR-15 military-style assault weapons and committing these terrible, outrageous -- I mean, the Aurora movie theater shooting was the biggest single shooting by a single shooter in the history of the United States.

And within a few months, we had the biggest shooting at a school in the history of the United States. And, yet, the reaction is a week or two of mourning, a bit of chatter about gun control, and then America goes back to normal.

Meantime ...

BANFIELD: Actually, Piers, there's one more reaction. There's more reaction. A lot of people go out and they actually purchase assault weapons, fearing that there's going to be an outright ban on them.

MORGAN: This is my real problem with the way the debate is framed by the gun right people.

I have absolute respect for any American who wants to exercise their rights under the Second Amendment to have a firearm at home, a pistol or a gun, a handgun, to protect themselves and their families.

There are numerous incidents you can point to where that has potentially has saved a life and I respect. I believe that is what the Founding Fathers probably intended with the wording of the Second Amendment.

However, I see no reason and I come from a military family -- many of my relatives have served in the British army. They are as aghast as I am that, in America, I can go to Walmart, for example, and I'm not allowed to buy six packets of Sudafed or a Kinder egg or various types of French cheese because they're all considered too harmful to my health, potentially, but I can buy an AR-15 assault weapon.

I can get on the Internet, buy 6,000 rounds of ammunition. I can buy a magazine that can hold 100 bullets and I can then go to a church or a school or a movie theater or a shopping mall and I can kill as many Americans ...

BANFIELD: Hey, Piers.

MORGAN: ... as I want to in the space of a few minutes.

This madness has got to stop.

BANFIELD: As you continue ...

MORGAN: And, you know, if it makes me unpopular with a section of the American gun rights lobbyists, well, it's about time somebody was unpopular with them.

American's politicians have been cowed into a shameful silence.

BANFIELD: That's where I want to go next.

MORGAN: ... got to be the tipping point.

BANFIELD: I literally am out of time, but I have to go there next.

The White House actually responded to this petition. There's, I think, over 100,000 petitions to have you kicked out. They have to respond to this. This isn't a joke. What did they say?

MORGAN: Well, it's very interesting, I though. Jay Carney, the White House spokesman, said two things, one, that they would be making a formal response, so President Obama will decide whether I'm going to be deported or not, but I thought there was a clue to that decision- making process in the second part of the statement, which said that they wanted to remind people that they respect the right of freedom of expression, which is of course a constitutional right under the First Amendment.

And there is an irony here, Ashleigh, about people who want to deport me for supposedly attacking the Second Amendment and, yet, that would, in itself, be a flagrant breach of the First Amendment, the freedom of speech expression, particularly with the press. It's noted there.

And I think that this debate has to be had. It has to continue. It cannot be allowed to do die just because a story fades out after a couple weeks.

There will be another mass shooting in America in the next few months and we all know this. And the answer to Sandy Hook is not to do nothing. That is a moral and ethical --

BANFIELD: I am -- I'm flat out time.

MORGAN : ... any kind of responsibility.

BANFIELD: I'm flat out of time, but I cannot wait for tonight's program because I know you've got more coming up.

Piers, thanks for doing this. And thanks for talking to me.

MORGAN : Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And I said it. Tune in tonight because Piers has the fallout from the interview you just saw with Alex Jones and it starts at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We are learning new details about the horror that was in that Colorado movie theater after July's mass shooting there, the haunting echoes of cell phones, cell phones of the dead, that were ringing over and over again. And cell phones that would never be answered.

And blood that was just quite simply everywhere. Further descriptions that I really can't even give you on television.

The second day of hearings for the alleged gunman, James Holmes, is about to start in less than 30 minutes. I want to get straight to Casey Wian, outside the courthouse.

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, day two of the preliminary hearing for James Holmes, the alleged Colorado movie theater shooting suspect, will begin with continued testimony from a detective who has been detailing the injuries to many of the dozens of victims from that shooting last July.

Other testimony on day one was very, very graphic. Police officers testified about the bloody scene that they encountered, one officer saying that some of the victims he carried out of the theater were so badly injured he could not determine either their race or their gender.

Also talked about the number of victims he took to the hospital, trips back and forth from the movie theater to the hospital and, by the time he was through, he could hear blood sloshing in the back of his patrol car.

Very, very graphic testimony, very difficult for members of the victims' family to hear, despite the fact that they were warned about this graphic testimony by prosecutors in advance of the hearing.

Also, the first officer who encountered James Holmes behind the movie theater who placed him under arrest said that, about his emotional state after the shooting, quote, "He was very relaxed. There were not normal emotional responses to anything. He seemed very detached from all of it."

That kind of information is obviously going to be capitalized on by the defense to show that he had some sort of diminished or impaired mental capacity.

Family members of some of the victims, though, are not buying it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM TEVES, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Yeah, I never stopped watching him in the courtroom. As soon as he saw different things happening, he smiled a couple of times and very quickly because he caught himself. Because he's really pretending to be crazy.

That guy's evil, but there's no way that guy's crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIAN: Other evidence that emerged during day one, surveillance video that showed James Holmes entering the theater, using his cell phone to gain admission.

It was learned at the hearing that he purchased his tickets 12 days in advance of the showing, which the prosecution can clearly use to show evidence of premeditation.

Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: Casey, thank you.

The preliminary hearing is expected to continue right throughout the week and we do have a team of reporters inside the courtroom and we'll bring you the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So what are you doing on February 15th? My advice get a helmet, stop-drop-and-roll because we're running out of money on that today. It's possible it could be as early as that day. We, as a government, will no longer be able to pay our bills.

Christine Romans, what do we do about this?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, you have to raise the debt ceiling.

By law, Congress can only spend so much money and rack up so much debt before they have to raise the debt ceiling again. We hit that ceiling according to the Bipartisan Policy Center on February 15th -- as soon as February 15th.

On that day, the inflow into the Treasury coffers, $9 billion. So, imagine this like your own checkbook. You've got $9 billion coming in. On that day, you've got $52 billion in bills due. $52 billion in bills due; $9 billion coming in.

BANFIELD: I'm not going to do the math that quickly, but it's around $30 billion difference, so we've got a big problem.

ROMANS: $43 billion.

BANFIELD: $43 billion? You know what? I am really dumb.

So, OK, break that down for me. In that $52 billion set of bills, what's due that day?

ROMANS: Well, the most -- the biggest part of that committed spending is $30 billion interest on our debt. We have to pay the interest on our debt or we are in default of our obligations.

We borrow money every day just to keep our standard of living, just to run the country as it is.

BANFIELD: So, if this were your mortgage, just take a look at that top picture up there. $30 billion would be your mortgage payment for the month and then all of those other littler numbers would be your expenses.

ROMANS: Right.

BANFIELD: And that's kind of what we're looking at.

ROMANS: And these are things that people rely on. This is a Friday, February 15th. It's payday, so you've got federal salaries and benefits. Military active pay, Medicare and Medicaid, defense vendors get paid on the 15th of the month.

Food, HUD, welfare, unemployment, $1.1 billion there. That's food stamps, apartment housing aid. That's unemployment checks. These are things that, in theory, if you don't raise the debt ceiling, the government could have to give you an IOU instead of giving you money.

BANFIELD: So, obviously, this is a serious problem because if they just stop paying these people, it's not just these people who are affected. It's all of us. Explain the domino effect works.

ROMANS: So, imagine if suddenly you've got $43 billion that used to be in the economy that day that it isn't, right? So, that's retailers. It's hotels. It's food-and-drink establishments. It's bills being paid. It's cars being bought.

It's all these things that don't happen in the economy while people wait for the money that they're used to. The baseline is that you're spending that much more every day than you earn.

BANFIELD: Could we get downgraded? Our debt, would that immediately happen or would it take a while?

ROMANS: It could. Oh, I mean, they've warned that it could happen quickly. I mean, you could have a stock market decline, a very quick stock market decline. It could hurt your 401(k).

This is something, if this happens, you're not paying these bills, I mean, it sends a signal to the world that our Congress is absolutely dysfunctional, that we're going to make promises that our government can't keep and that's a real problem.

BANFIELD: So, a lot of people heard, hey, I thought we hit that debt ceiling and ran out of our money on December 31st, and then there were extraordinary measures. I wish I had those in my house, extraordinary measures. ROMANS: You do. You move things between accounts. You maybe don't pay a bill right on time.

BANFIELD: Why can't I have extraordinary measures to keep me from having to default on all of that?

ROMANS: We've been doing it. We've been doing it to the tune of $200 billion and the Bipartisan Policy Center says time's running out. You can't keep moving the money around in the accounts after February 15th.

BANFIELD: It's a big fat ending.

ROMANS: That's right.

BANFIELD: All right. Well, that tells you why it's as serious as it is. We'll obviously be talking about this more as the politicians try to figure it out.

Christine Romans, thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: For the first time ever, a film crew has captured a monster, the stuff of legends, I swear. It's the giant squid.

And, if you don't think that's a big deal, it is. It truly is legendary.

This picture captured in its natural habitat more than a half mile under the ocean's surface and, pardon the pun here, is making some serious ripples.

Joining me now to talk about how important this discovery is, is Jack Hanna because he's the greatest guy to do it. He's the director emeritus from the Columbus Zoo and host of "Jack Hanna's Into the Wild Countdown."

Jack, this is such a cool discovery.