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Jodi Arias Murder Trial Day 4

Aired January 9, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet on a trip for work to Vegas and fall hard. But when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man.

Then 30-year-old Travis Alexander`s found slumped dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit.

Bombshell tonight. We learn just hours after Arias stabs her 30-year-old lover, Travis Alexander, to death in the shower, Arias has sexual contact with a brand-new boyfriend, egging the new boyfriend on sexually, even climbing on top of him as if nothing is wrong. And the whole time, Travis Alexander`s body is decomposing in a damp shower stall!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the key witness today is Ryan Burns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former friend of Jodi Arias who she had a romantic relationship with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He lived in Salt Lake City. She went up to see him...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 12 hours after Travis was murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did this kissing continue or did it just stop at one kiss?

RYAN BURNS, FORMER LOVER OF JODI ARIAS: Eventually, we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never mentioned a word about what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was her demeanor? Was she upset? Was she happy?

BURNS: She was fine. She was laughing at simple little things. I never once felt there was anything wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the door was opened...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My heart just sank. And I did end up seeing a pool of blood.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I`ve heard all kinds of rumors. They said there was a lot of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body was found in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you notice (INAUDIBLE) actually had any injuries or cuts on one of hands?

BURNS: She told me she worked at Margaritaville and she had cut her finger. She broke a glass.

ARIAS: ... hurt Travis. I would never hurt Travis. I would never harm him physically.

BURNS: Complimented her on being very feisty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis`s family and friends say Jodi was stalking him in the months before the murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody had mentioned that Jodi might quite possibly be involved, and then I started connecting the dots.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Just hours after Arias stabs her 30-year-old lover, Travis Alexander, to death in the shower, Arias actually has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, egging him on sexually, even climbing up on top of him to get him to keep going, as if nothing is wrong. The whole time that she`s making out with this guy, Travis Alexander`s body is decomposing in a damp shower stall, and she is carrying on normally as if nothing has happened!

A positive ID of a palm print, Arias`s bloody palm print, Alexander`s blood, her palm print in Travis Alexander`s home. Now, how did that happen?

This as she goes so far -- as I`m talking to you, we are digesting police recordings of Arias. When they first questioned her, she refers to Travis Alexander as commitment-phobic. Hello! You`re the axe murderer. No wonder he doesn`t want to commit to you!

Straight out to Christina Estes, anchor with KTAR. Christina, thank you for being with us. What happened today? It`s like a bombshell every couple of minutes in the courtroom!

CHRISTINA ESTES, KTAR RADIO (via telephone): Bombshell is certainly an appropriate word today, Nancy. People who haven`t even been following this case closely, just regular folks here in the Phoenix area, heard about this testimony today and really are speechless.

Ryan Burns, pivotal, pivotal witness for the prosecution because people, again, who haven`t been following this word by word, say, How do you say that you -- this is in self-defense, and then 24 hours later, you`re making out with some guy?

GRACE: Joining me right now, straight off the witness stand, the former lover of Jodi Arias who underwent direct and cross-examination under oath today. Ryan Burns is with us. This is, repeat, the former lover of Jodi Arias. He was kept on the witness stand for hours today.

Take a listen to some of what came out under oath.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first episode of sexual interaction that you`d ever had with her?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t -- did you have any sexual interaction in Oklahoma City?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the kissing -- about what time of the day was it?

BURNS: Probably 3:00, 4:00 PM.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she arrived at what time?

BURNS: 10:00 or 11:00 -- 10:00 or 11:00.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So within five hours of arriving, and you`d never seen her before, this interaction is taking place?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said, Well, we talked about cuddling. Do you remember that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does cuddling include her moving you around and getting on top of you and grinding on your pelvis?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that what you mean?

BURNS: We never talked about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is that what cuddling means?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Asked and answered (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled. He may answer.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is cuddling?

BURNS: I mean, just snuggling up to a movie.


GRACE: This is just hours after Travis Alexander is stabbed to death, stabbed in the heart, his skull nicked with a knife, shot in the face. They had to dig the bullet out of his face. And then she drives hours on end to have a sex encounter, sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend. Whoa!

OK, Ryan Burns, thank you for being with us. You know, how -- you were this close to undergoing this yourself. There is this woman really egging you on. You`re the one that stopped with the sexual activity. You`re the one that stopped and went, Whoa, whoa, let`s just wait a minute.

She had come straight from stabbing Travis Alexander to death. I want to hear the whole thing. How did you people meet?

BURNS: We met a few months prior to that at an Oklahoma convention, at the Cox Convention Center. There was 10,000, maybe 15,000 legal shield (ph) associates that we all work with. I`m from Salt Lake City. Jodi`s from California, was at the time. I didn`t know her. We met at that convention. Obviously, there`s tens -- over 10,000 people there.

But we have very close circles of trainers, the people that got us started. And so we had a breakout session. That`s where maybe about 50 to 100 of us got together at some point. And after that event, I had received, like, a rising star award. And some time after that, Jodi approached me.

We started chatting with each other. I`m not sure if she`s the one that engaged in the conversation or if I was, but the end of it, basically, was that if I ever had anybody out in California that I need assistance with, that she was out there. She`d be willing to help me out. and I said, Great, and likewise, and I asked for her number. And that`s how we met is for those three or four minutes at that Oklahoma convention in April.

GRACE: Everyone, with me is Ryan Burns, joining us exclusively tonight. And he is not afraid of the harsh glare of the lights. He is actually taking your calls, along with me, Ryan just off the witness stand.

Ryan, I now understand how you guys met. What was your impression of Jodi Arias when you first met her?

BURNS: My impression was -- you know, I thought she was a beautiful girl. We didn`t get a lot of time to get to know her there. Like I said, only talked for three or four minutes. But she was a businesswoman at a national convention. She seemed to have the same entrepreneur spirit that I had, and so interested in that light, and so, you know, got her number. And we actually didn`t really start talking until maybe three or four weeks after that.

GRACE: I want to fast-forward to the day she came to your home. She drove many, many hours to get there. And this is all literally about 17 hours or so after she stabbed Travis Alexander, whom you also knew, stabbed him to death.

I know she was very late in getting to you. What was her explanation as to why she was almost 24 hours late getting to your place?

BURNS: Yes, she told me she was leaving -- she lived in northern California. She was going to go visit a friend in southern California that had a baby or something like that. The plan was that she told me a week prior to this, she was planning to come see me. And when the day arrived, you know, she called me from southern California around 9:00 PM on Tuesday. She was supposed to get to my house -- it`s a 12-hour drive from LA to Salt Lake City. She was going to get to my house at 9:00 PM. Obviously, you know, I was concerned about her driving in the middle of the night, so I told her to pull over. She had called me. She wanted me to help her stay awake. And so I maybe really expected her maybe around 12:00 or 1:00 PM.

but I called her at 9:00 the next day, on Wednesday. It went straight to voicemail. I wasn`t too concerned at that point. I figured she might have pulled over just to take a nap. At 12:00, 1:00, when it didn`t still go through, now I was starting to get concerned. And then I even tried maybe two other times after that, even contacted another friend that she had in Salt Lake City...

GRACE: So what was her explanation, Ryan?

BURNS: ... to see if she had heard from her...

GRACE: What did she say?

BURNS: Her reason was -- was -- and I think they did an objection in court. They didn`t want me to speculate on this, but I guess I can talk here. She said she got lost. She got on the wrong freeway and she was kind of air-headed like that. That`s what she said.

And she drove for hours upon hours in the middle of the night until it was dark. She didn`t realize where she was going. At that point, she, you know, was so tired, she fell asleep, and she couldn`t believe how many hours she fell asleep, and then she had tried to get back...

GRACE: Did it sound...

BURNS: ... on the right path to come back.

GRACE: ... truthful to you? Did it sound truthful to you?

BURNS: Not at all. And that`s what the -- that`s what the prosecutor was trying to get me to say is that, you know, I -- while she was telling me this -- you know, and the defense tried to make it sound like we were a couple. I was definitely interested in her, and that`s why we were talking four or five times a week for over a month, you know, but we weren`t together. And so I didn`t really -- I knew that she was somewhere...

GRACE: Are you Mormon, too?

BURNS: ... that she didn`t want to tell me, and I just -- I grew up in the LDS church. At that time, I hadn`t attended an LDS, you know, church for over a year. You know, I turned (ph) Christian (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: So then -- OK, so at that time, you were still a Mormon, although you were not regularly attending. It`s my understanding that at the time, you believed Jodi that Arias was actually pulling you closer to God?

BURNS: I mean, some of the talks were, you know, why I was not attending the LDS church at the time, you know. And she would -- she was, you know, from my perspective, you know, somebody who felt like she wanted to, you know, tell me to read my scriptures more, pray more, you know? And it wasn`t like she was trying to, you know, really push me, but we`d have conversations more like she was trying to, you know, get me back on that right path...

GRACE: Ryan? Ryan? Let -- let...

BURNS: Yes, that`s what that was about.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that Jodi Arias, now on trial for stabbing her lover after a full day of -- it was a sex marathon -- stabbing him 29 times, she`s telling you that you should read the scriptures more.

BURNS: Yes. I mean, that`s -- that conversation (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: I just want to make sure I understood that correctly.

BURNS: ... she went out there.

GRACE: Ryan Burns is joining us and taking your calls. Take a listen to what just occurred on the witness stand.


BURNS: We were talking and we kissed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did this kissing continue, or did it just stop at one kiss?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eventually, we kissed probably many times. Every time we started kissing, it got a little more escalated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with regard to the physical contact beyond the kissing, was there any of that?

BURNS: Clothes never came off. You know, at some point, she was kissing my neck. I was kissing hers. But clothes never came off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about your hands?

BURNS: Yes, my hands were -- I never touched her breasts or anything like that. At one point, I had my hands on her thighs. She was -- you know, things were -- she was definitely seemed to be into the moment. And you know, eventually, we stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before you stopped, did your hands ever go near her vaginal area?




BURNS: I complimented her on being very feisty, and I was kind of referring she`s -- she`s a lot stronger than she looks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During this encounter, when -- after you wake up, did she ever -- and the phrase may have been -- adjust you in any way while this encounter is going on?

BURNS: Well, that`s what I mean. When we woke up, we were kissing. And then she eventually kind of grabbed me and adjusted me a little bit, and that`s when she got on top of me and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did that -- were you able to feel her strength at that point?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you form an opinion, again, throughout the day and as part of that, as to her strength?

BURNS: Yes, she`s strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At any point, did you ever kiss her stomach?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were you able to see her stomach in terms of whether or not she was in shape?

BURNS: Yes, close to a six-pack, yes.


GRACE: With me right now, straight off the witness stand, is Ryan Burns, the former lover of Jodi Arias, who has just come off the witness stand, testifying under oath.

Ryan, thank you for being with us. What was it like in court and the last couple of hours sitting there, with her looking at you and taking notes, and you`re talking about this sex encounter you had, knowing now in hindsight it`s just a couple of hours after she stabbed Travis Alexander to death, then she hops up on top of you?

BURNS: Right. I mean, obviously very awkward, extremely awkward. I mean, it`s hard to believe you`re this close to something that`s so dramatic. I just -- I really didn`t think she could have possibly done. And for a month after she was there at my house, she explained that she was never there at Travis`s, and you know, that the truth would eventually came out of who really hurt him. And that was the whole story that she fed everybody until up to the point she was arrested.

GRACE: So Ryan, did you ask her about it? Did you ask her, Were you involved? And if so, what propelled you to do that?

BURNS: You know, we talked quite a few times even after, you know, it came out. But again, we didn`t really know -- she told me -- she called me at 4:00 AM four or five days after she was at my house. I didn`t answer the phone. She called me three or four times.

I actually called her in the morning and asked her if everything`s OK. Normally, she didn`t call me at 4:00 AM in the morning. She said, No. She was in tears, it sounded like. And she said that Travis had died. I said, Travis who? She said, Travis Alexander. And I said, Your ex-boyfriend? I mean, Travis just died? And she confirmed.

And I was shocked, you know, because he was -- you know, he was such a young guy, happy, everybody loved him, motivational speaker, totally turned my business around when I was ready to quit in the beginning. First three months, he was kind of the guy that came into town. And I showed up to that training not even knowing if I was going to do the business anymore three months in. And I laughed, I cried, and he was an incredible speaker. It just seemed like not the type of guy that would commit a suicide or something like that.

I even asked her, Is he suicidal? And she said, No, no, she didn`t think he was. And I said, How did he die so young? And she said, They`re looking at it like a suspicious death. And I said, Like somebody killed him? And she said, yes, that might have been what happened. I don`t know yet. And so, you know, that`s -- that`s how that, you know, all came out.

GRACE: Then she went on to say she didn`t have anything to do with it. When was the last time -- the last time you spoke with her, what was her story that time? Because she`s changed it quite often.

BURNS: The entire time -- in fact, for two or three weeks after Travis had died, I didn`t think she could have possibly done it. People are saying that she, you know, was gone and missing for those 24 hours, and I kind of reminded people that we didn`t know when Travis died. I mean, I didn`t know if he died the night that she called me, the day before she called me.

People were coming to the conclusion that he died four days prior, which happened to fit the story of her being missing. And I thought that was a lot to come to a conclusion because we didn`t have any information. At least, I didn`t know of any information from the detective or anybody else.

And so I didn`t believe she had killed him, yes.

GRACE: Well, when was the last time you actually spoke to her?

BURNS: Probably the night before she was arrested.


GRACE: Straight back to Ryan Burns, Ryan Burns straight off the witness stand. He has been under oath for hours. Ryan was the new boyfriend in Jodi Arias`s life. As a matter of fact, she drives hours and hours to go to him, egging him on sexually. This was within hours after stabbing Travis Alexander to death.

Ryan, again, thank you for being with us. I`m going to open it up to the callers in just a moment. But Ryan, I`m extremely curious if you could tell me -- you spoke to her the night before she was arrested. In that conversation, what did she say?

BURNS: It was never -- most of our -- 90 percent -- 95 percent of our conversations were nothing about Travis. It was more -- she did talk about -- I`m not sure if you got that, that she wanted me to come out and see her. She wanted me to spend a few days out there. She told my expenses would be covered.

GRACE: Was she upset Alexander had another girlfriend?

BURNS: No because my impression was -- obviously, she was upset. But my impression was that they were done. They`d moved on. She -- I mean, the picture she painted -- you got to remember I talked to her April for five, six weeks.


BURNS: The only Jodi I knew was the person I talked to on the phone. And the picture she painted, they were a long history. Apparently, Travis and Jodi hid that pretty well. I mean, even me -- I was shocked that they were still even in contact. I didn`t know that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Shannon in Pennsylvania. Hi, Shannon. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you. I have a lot of respect for what you do.

GRACE: Likewise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, she seems at her young age and just with her physical appearance and her ability to obviously attract males -- has there been a history ever with her with a breakup that, you know, she stalks the man? Or it seems to me like she just really does not handle the possibility of losing somebody well, when she could very easily find somebody else.

GRACE: Let`s find out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has there been a history of this?

GRACE: Ryan Burns, I assume that the two of you discussed your past love lives. Had she had very many boyfriends? How did she describe breakups, or did she?

BURNS: It`s strange because I know nothing about Jodi`s family. She`d never talk about that, so I don`t know if there was -- but as far as boyfriend, I think she lived with somebody for years, maybe three or four years. She never said anything bad about that. It`s just I`m finding out now she broke up with him later.



BURNS: Yes, it seemed like the reason they broke up was because they didn`t trust each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her going into his cell phone snooping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was there jealousy?

JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING TRAVIS ALEXANDER: On my end not so much jealousy, maybe a sense of insecurity.

RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "QUIET HERO": Now her story is she killed Travis in self-defense.

ARIAS: He works out really, really hard. He`s so strong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis was one of the nicest and kindest men I`ve ever met. He was the type of guy that you just wanted to be around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man.

BURNS: It`s hard to say no to a woman who sneaks into your house, crawls in your bed and tries to, you know, seduce you. When we woke up we were kissing and then she eventually kind of grabbed me and she got on top of me.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are straight out of the courtroom. We are live in Arizona.

Straight out to Bonnie Druker who is on our team there watching every word that comes from the witness stand.

Bonnie, what happened in court?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, obviously, Ryan Burns took the stand today and that was incredibly dramatic. You know yesterday was gore. Today was sex and everyone was listening to every word that he said. We also heard about a palm print and we heard about carpet with blood on it, Nancy. But again, Ryan Burns, he took the stand and everyone was watching incredibly close. He was the man today.

GRACE: Explain to me -- right now we`re showing you the carpet that was ripped up out of Travis Alexander`s home there in his bedroom and bathroom. What`s the significance of that carpet, Bonnie?

DRUKER: Well, the significance is that he bled obviously on the carpet and then he was dragged into the bathroom, and that`s where Jodi Arias left his body so that blood shows on the carpet that he was dragged from that carpet into the shower.

GRACE: And in retrospect as we`re looking back and putting all the pieces together, Bonnie, let`s analyze what Ryan Burns is telling us tonight. Give me the timeline.

DRUKER: Well, the timeline is Jodi Arias admitted that she killed Travis Alexander. Twelve hours later she is with Ryan Burns, kissing him and dry humping him, and getting on top of him. So, you know, we`ve obviously talked about this before as crime victims.

GRACE: You know, joining me right now, Matt Zarrell, also tracking the trail.

Give me the timeline, Matt.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: OK, Nancy. Now what we know is that Jodi Arias showed up to Travis Alexander`s home at about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Travis was on YouTube. Apparently they immediately went to sleep, got up around -- later in the day around 1:00 p.m., started having sex.

They took naked photos of each other. Then more naked poses in the shower that you see around 5:30 p.m. Some of the photos were shown to the jury. Some haven`t been yet. And 5:30 is the last photo taken of Travis Alexander alive in the shower. Within 44 seconds of that last photo, that`s when prosecutors say Arias stabbed him in the heart and began killing him.

GRACE: Matt, I want you to back it up and go through it with me with a fine-toothed comb. The murder of Travis Alexander and when we find her within hours climbing on top of Ryan Burns egging him on sexually.

ZARRELL: Yes, it was -- it was less than 24 hours. Now Arias initially planned to arrive at Burns` home on June 4th, which was the day of the murder. He was -- she was supposed to arrive, Arias, around noon or 1:00 p.m., but the day of the murder Burns was trying to reach Jodi Arias all day at 9:00 a.m., noon, 1:00 p.m. The calls all went straight to voicemail. The next day, June 5th, is when Arias does show up and that`s when she gives this story about how she got lost and she fell asleep in the car and she lost her car charger and all of that.

Now one thing that`s interesting, Nancy, is after she arrived, she was actually pulled over by a law enforcement officer within hours of arriving because of an upside-down license plate which she also had a crazy story for.

GRACE: OK, I want to hear the crazy story about why the car tag on the front was missing and the car tag on the back was upside-down.

ZARRELL: Yes, this is actually very interesting. From what Ryan Burns said, Arias actually claimed it was, quote, "a funny story." Arias says the cop pulled her over because her back license plate was upside-down. When Ryan Burns asked how that could have happened, Jodi Arias said she was coming out of a restaurant sometime on her trip to Burns` house and there were these, quote, "kids" goofing off around her car and screwing around with the front license plate and dropped it on the floor when they saw her and left.

Arias claims that she thought that`s all they did so she put the front license plate in the car but Arias said she didn`t realize that they also turned the back license plate upside-down. Why they would do that, I have no idea.

GRACE: Taking your calls, out to Suzanne. Hi, Suzanne, what`s your question?

SUZANNE, CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling in.

SUZANNE: Thank you. I`m wondering if anybody has looked at Jodi Arias` history to see if she`s had a problem with her temper because, I mean, this was really out there. About as severe as she could get. And I don`t think this would be a one-time thing.

GRACE: You know, out to Christina Estes, anchor with KTAR, joining me tonight from Phoenix.

Christina, what do we really know about her?

ESTES: Well, we might actually learn a little bit more about her relationships once the defense gets its chance and calls its witnesses because during the opening statements, the defense brought up, hey, this is all with about self-defense and they implied that they were going to bring a domestic violence expert in who was going to talk about that.

Not necessarily about physical abuse but about emotional mental abuse so that may be a factor that we will hear about. We do know that based on some messages between Ryan and Jodi that she does have some trust issues with Travis. And, also, that she had a prior relationship where she said she had been cheated on before.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified, sex crimes prosecutor. Also with me tonight defense attorney Peter Odom from the Atlanta jurisdiction.

Eleanor Odom, weigh in on the whole battered women`s syndrome defense because, as of this hour, this day in court, there is no allegation there was physical abuse before Travis Alexander attacked her and she murdered him.

I find that very hard to believe and also, Eleanor, what kind of attack could it be? Because, let`s just say at 5:30 she is taking sexy shots of him in the shower. At 5:32 he`s dead.

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: I don`t think this defense is going to go very far, Nancy. Because you know with battered women`s syndrome or battered person`s syndrome that person is claiming they have been so abused physically and also mentally, verbally, by this person that it drove them to an act of violence themselves or that they, you know, have suffered posttraumatic stress disorder from it.

But you know what`s funny, Nancy, is we`ve never seen any scintilla of evidence that she suffered any battered person syndrome whatsoever. So I think this defense is going to fail and fail big. I mean this woman can`t even lie straight.

GRACE: Well, you know, if you analyze this, Peter Odom, the reality is that the -- oh, let me just old traditional self-defense law is going to kick in which is basically sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

Words alone, verbal abuse alone is not going to create a battered women`s syndrome defense.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She has to believe that she was in immediate fear for -- and reasonably believed that she was in immediate fear.

GRACE: Well, that`s all self-defense. That`s all self-defense.

P. ODOM: Exactly. So, I mean, the self-defense claim -- I would agree with Eleanor that the self-defense claim is a hard one and there`s no evidence of it yet. But you know what, she has --

GRACE: Put him up, please.

P. ODOM: She has to go with that. She has to go with that.

GRACE: Yes, she does, Peter. The lawyer is between a rock and a hard spot because first she said, I wasn`t there.

P. ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Then it`s the strange people dressed like ninjas come in and killed the guy --

P. ODOM: She then claimed --

GRACE: -- as she watches.

P. ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Now she says self-defense. I mean, they absolutely cannot now revert to insanity, it just -- it would be laughed out of court.

P. ODOM: Right. So she`s placed at the scene because there`s a palm print so she`s got to have a defense consistent with that palm print so it`s got to be self-defense but it doesn`t take much. Don`t forget, Nancy, she doesn`t have to prove her innocence. The state has to prove her guilt and they`re just starting to plant these seeds.

Now the real question is going to be, does she take the witness stand to sell this defense?

GRACE: Yes, you`re right.

Eleanor, will she take the witness stand?

E. ODOM: I think she`s going to have to, Nancy. And I know as a prosecutor I don`t usually put in defendant`s self-serving statements because I want to force them on the stand so I can have my turn at them under cross-examination.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing I would hear a lot of is by the ladies, am I single? And that`s right. I am. Ladies, come get me.

BURNS: She got on top of me. Pretty aggressively and we were kissing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you form an opinion, again, throughout the day and as part of that as to her strength?

BURNS: Yes, she`s strong. Close to six pack, yes.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is the carpet leading from the master bedroom right at the entryway to the hallway that leads to the master bath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this blood just outside the hallway on the carpet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the piece of carpet. I can see some of the staining on the interior fold.


GRACE: In the last hours, carpet ripped up out of Travis Alexander`s bedroom and bathroom where you can see bloody drag marks as Arias dragged him and positioned his body have come into court. We already know about a cut found where she would fill it up with warm water and basically bathe Travis Alexander`s dead body slumped over in the shower.

Also, in the last hours there on the witness stand we learned about a bloody palm print. It`s Travis Alexander`s blood. It`s her palm print. The evidence is mounting.

I want to go to Leslie Seppinni, clinical psychologist and author.

Leslie, weigh in on your analysis of Jodi Arias.

LESLIE SEPPINNI, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, you know, the fact that she keeps talking shows that true mental illness of a sociopath, that she think that she has gotten away with the perfect crime. But it also shows the statements that Ryan made today were so incredible because it really shows how seductive she is. And that`s part of the pathology. She already had slaughtered one man and she already had another man in the bull pen ready to go to seduce him and using religion to do that. It`s fascinating.

GRACE: And it`s also interesting, back to you, Matt Zarrell, that she had her sights on Travis Alexander. She even converted to Mormonism. He baptized her into Mormonism. But they keep referring to Jodi Arias as his dirty little secret, I guess, because, what, the church thought he was marrying or courting another Mormon woman while he was having sex with Arias? Is that what`s happening?

ZARRELL: Well, the whole idea is what the defense is saying. The defense is the one that`s saying that she`s the dirty little secret. That Alexander would be able to carry on relationships publicly with women that may have been viewed better in the Mormon Church as opposed to Jodi Arias whom he was having a sexual relationship with which was against the church.

GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Marnita in New Jersey. Hi, Marnita, what`s your question?

MARNITA, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. My question is for Mr. Ryan Burns. I was wondering how long he knew her and if she seemed calm or strange when she was around him?

GRACE: Yes, I`m curious, too, Ryan. What`s the answer to that?

BURNS: I knew her for about two months. We talked on the phone for five or six weeks, four or five times a week for -- she would call almost every time at 11:00 p.m. when our days were wrapping up. I was very busy in the business working. She always seemed calm. She had never seemed like there was a problem when she was with me.

When the timeframe came out to think that she called me and I talked to her for maybe an hour, 30 minutes to an hour, when I was at the Cheesecake Factory, which was only three or four hours after he was killed is what I`m hearing now. And so for that whole hour we talked about simple things, giggling about just little jokes, just normal conversation, you would think. Obviously they`re abnormal when you -- in retrospect.

But she was always seemed just like the Jodi that I had been talking to for five or six weeks, the entire 14-hour she was with me the day after Travis died.

GRACE: OK. Ryan Burns, this is so incredible to all of us listening and, listen, I claimed to have seen it all having prosecuted felonies for, you know, a decade. But hearing you talk about this is just riveting to me that she is giggling like a schoolgirl and having a regular conversation with you -- you know, right after stabbing him to death.

I`m hearing in my ear, I`m getting Beth Karas with me. Beth has been in the courtroom all day long.

Beth, debrief me. What happened?

BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Good evening, Nancy. Oh, wow, the jury heard so many recordings of Jodi Arias. Detective Flores back on the stand, and he`s talking about a second conversation with her on June 25th, 2008, where he`s asking her very pointed questions about her relationship with Travis, the last time she saw him and about her trip from northern California to Utah.

Well, she admits that she went to pasadena to see friends, which the police were able to track and corroborate. But she said she then drove nine hours straight to Utah to see Ryan Burns. Well, we know that`s not true, obviously, she detoured to Mesa, Arizona, for a day. So no mention about whatsoever. She talked about her relationship with him and the breakup and how they continued to see each other but they didn`t really trust each other, and she knew he was going to Cancun on June 10th.

Key facts, Detective Flores got out from her like she knew he wasn`t going to Cancun and the state will probably argue, she intended for him ever to make it that trip to Cancun. She said she was fearful of guns and that she was fearful of being in public, that she was shaking when she had to sing the national anthem one time.

And I`m thinking to myself, boy, she didn`t seem fearful when she was singing in that "American Idol" contest in jail. But she said that she did fear guns.

GRACE: So wait, so she`s afraid of guns and she`s afraid to sing in public?

KARAS: Those are two things she said on her list of fears she needed to overcome. She had a list and Travis was helping her work on that list. Of course she is distancing herself from a gun, right, the weapon in the case which ultimately she admits to using but at that time she is saying -- she -- she didn`t know --

GRACE: OK. Beth Karas --

KARAS: -- what they had on her and said she was afraid of guns.

Beth Karas, don`t move a hair.

Everybody, Beth is joining us straight out of the courthouse. She is taking your calls. She has just told us that Jodi Arias tells the cops she is mortally afraid of guns and singing. Take a listen to this.




BURNS: Maybe I did ask her. And yes, I found out that they -- that they had had sex together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that include like a sexual relationship with him?

ARIAS: Yes, it does.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This relationship was about sex.

ARIAS: It eventually became sex.


GRACE: That is Jodi Arias on CBS "48 Hours."

We are taking your calls. Back to you, Beth Karas. Go ahead. I want to - - I don`t want to miss a thing. What happened?

KARAS: Well, there were more of these little recordings from June 25th, 2008. This is before her arrest but it`s about two weeks after Travis was found dead in the shower. She said that at the time, after they broke up she continued to see him. She admitted it was a sexual relationship. But she said Travis used to text her late at night and say hey, I`m getting sleepy, and it became kind of the code word for her to sneak over there.

She said it was a sexual relationship but she just needed to move away, so she moved away, but they still continued to see each other. She said he was actually going to come to northern California to see her. I think she said it was after the Cancun trip. We don`t know if that`s true.

GRACE: Right.

KARAS: Obviously, she was never going to let him go to Cancun.

GRACE: With me right now, Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist.

Dr. Morrone, you have studied the injuries to the body. What do you make of it?

DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: There`s no way any of this was defensive. A textbook of medical legal studies say there are three fatal stab wounds above the waist -- the neck, the heart, and under the chin. She got two out of three. And you don`t do that in defense. And the veracity with which the number of wounds are directly to the body, that doesn`t happen in defense. This was planned and it was extensive. He has no wounds on his knuckles. He wasn`t attacking anybody. It`s terrible.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Air Force Senior Airman Benjamin White, 24, Irwin, Tennessee, killed Afghanistan. Purple Heart, Air Force Achievement medal, Air Force Combat medal. Loved weightlifting. Leaves behind parents, Anthony and Brenda, stepmother Jennifer, brothers Mark, Luke, and Evan. Sister Laura.

Benjamin White, American hero.

With me right now, Marc Harrold, former officer, attorney, and author.

Marc, what is your takeaway from Arias` testimony? What Ryan is saying about Arias on the stand.

MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": Yes, I think the self-defense isn`t going to really work here. They want to paint her out as being the aggressor. They want to paint her out as somebody who`s physically strong. And I think he did that. Also they`re going to have to show that she could drag the body. I think he was a very dramatic witness. He didn`t have any ax to grind it didn`t seem. He`s very truthful.

Self-defense works a lot better as a first defense, an affirmative defense. But as your third or fourth story it`s going to be rarely successful.

GRACE: Amanda, Louisiana. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

AMANDA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: I`d like to ask Mr. Burns if she started exhibiting that obsessive behavior like she did with Travis Alexander and her identity being tied up like she did with Travis Alexander.

GRACE: Ryan, she was making very long drives, you know, the long drive to see you. And I take it that she was calling you every night at 11:00?

BURNS: No. We called each other. I mean, a lot of times it was her. Sometimes it was me. You know, when she came out to see me, we had talked about it a few times. But you know, she never really seemed anything that we`re seeing today.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom joining me. Also Peter Odom out of Atlanta.

OK, Peter, where do they go now?

P. ODOM: Where does the trial go now? Well, I hope --

GRACE: The defense.

P. ODOM: The defense has laid out a story. They`re going to have a very difficult time unless they have evidence of that story. I think that there`s going to be a lot of pressure for Jodi Arias to testify.

GRACE: Eleanor, will she take the stand?

E. ODOM: I think she`s going to have to, Nancy, and I think she`s going to try to paint herself as this innocent victim to the jury. And I hope the jury doesn`t buy it. We`ve got to keep focused on the fact, on those 29 stab wounds, the shooting and the dragging of the body to the bathroom.

GRACE: Beth Karas, will she take the stand?

KARAS: She has said publicly in interviews to the media that she will testify. Her lawyers didn`t say that. And these are different lawyers from a couple years ago when she made the public statement, "I will testify." So we`ll see. I mean, she probably wants to. In self-defense cases you usually see the defendant taking the stand.

GRACE: Everyone, "DR. DREW" up next.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then good night, friend.