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Dr. Drew
Jodi Arias: Slaying Timeline
Aired January 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, I`ll bring you the latest evidence in the Jodi Arias murder trial, including a timeline that shows Travis was alive during most of the attack and slaughter.
And pictures Jodi thought she had erased from her camera. What does this all mean? I will discuss with an expert.
DETECTIVE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.
PINSKY: Also, new allegations in the teen rape case in Steubenville, Ohio. Did social media influence the boys accused of rape? Has technology made teenagers more prone to sex and violence?
I have some thoughts on this. I suspect you do, too.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And welcome to the program. My co-host this week, Jillian Barberie Reynolds.
Jillian, thanks for joining us.
JILLIAN BARBARIE REYNOLDS, TV HOST: Of course.
PINKSY: It will be interesting tonight.
We have some more gruesome evidence in the Jodi Arias murder trial, including some x-rated pictures. You got a little load of them just before we came to the studio here.
Joining me discuss: criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com; attorney and radio host, Lisa Wexler; Dr. Michelle Golland, clinical psychologist, and Dr. Bill Lloyd, who has performed over 500 autopsies.
And joining me from Arizona, "In Session`s" Beth Karas.
Beth, a lot of stuff going down in court today. Can you bring us up- to-date?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Well, Dr. Drew, this was a big day for the state. The photos you just talked about, and not just the sexually explicit photos that placed Jodi Arias with Travis Alexander just hours before she killed him, and then the series of photos she took of him in the shower just minutes before she killed him, and then three photos the state said were taken inadvertently, accidentally, during the course of the killing.
So the jury saw all these photos, as well as the sexually explicit ones, and then they heard from Jodi Arias her interrogation tape, which was videotaped the day she was arrested. There is more to come tomorrow because she talked again the day after she was arrested with a different story.
But on this tape, the detective is saying, Jodi, it`s over, it`s over, as she continued to deny hurting Travis Alexander. He said, we have your blood mixed with his blood. It`s your palm print on the wall. It`s your hair with a root attachment, his blood on it on the floor.
It`s you in these photos on the day he was killed. Now, we know the time he was killed. We just want to know why.
She said, I didn`t hurt Travis. If I did, I would beg for the death penalty, which, of course, is what the state is asking here.
So at the point when court broke for the day, she was continuing to deny having anything to do with this.
PINSKY: We are actually going to take a look at that videotape a little bit later, and she may get the opportunity to beg for the death penalty, because she, Jillian, has admitted to killing him.
REYNOLDS: So, basically, she may get what she wants.
PINSKY: She may get what she wants. That`s a good point.
Thank you, Beth. We`ll check in with you tomorrow. I appreciate that.
What I want to do now is get into a timeline that HLN has put together of how Jodi Arias may have been killed -- excuse me, how she may have killed Travis Alexander. Now, the photos alongside of this timeline can get rather graphic, so a warning here.
So, let`s do this. Here we go. I`m going to bring Dr. Lloyd in to discuss this with me.
Dr. Lloyd, are you there?
DR. BILL LLOYD, HAS PERFORMED OVER 500 AUTOPSIES: Loud and clear. How are you, Drew?
PINSKY: Good. Nice to talk to you again. Let`s get back -- thank you. Oh, there you are, you`ve got a dummy and you have kitchen knives, as I understand, too.
REYNOLDS: Oh my.
LLOYD: Certainly do. We`re ready to rock.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Let us go first to that timeline, that animation we were starting to show you here. Let me talk you guys through it, and, Doctor, you help me out.
Here he is alive -- go ahead.
LLOYD: Clearly, he`s alive in the shower. That`s probably where the back stabs were, the defensive injuries to the hands and the big blow to the heart.
So, now, he`s been stabbed in the heart. He`s bleeding like crazy. He leaves the shower, trying to get help. He makes it on his own probably almost all the way to the bedroom.
It`s sometime along there when he collapsed and fell into an unconscious state.
PINSKY: Stop right there. Let`s show that again, the animation. That`s the first move from the bathroom.
Show it again now. You were saying she stabbed him in the back and the chest, got one of the main arteries. Here we go. Stabbed in the chest. He`s probably --
LLOYD: He lacerated his vena cava in the chest.
PINSKY: He`s probably right in the way.
LLOYD: Out of the shower, out of the bathroom, heading for the bedroom. Massive blood loss. Collapses, falls on his back and makes himself pray for that fatal wound that went to the neck.
PINSKY: OK. Stop there.
LLOYD: At this point, he`s still outside the bathroom.
PINSKY: Stop there. So, the slash in the neck, let`s talk about that. Bring your knives out for me. What kind of knife do you think hit him in the neck?
LLOYD: The structures that were hit, the vocal cords and the two major vessels in the neck had to have been deep enough. Now, this is more important than the length of the knife, Drew. You have very strong neck muscles, as you know, the strap muscles that protect these vital structures. You do not voluntarily let somebody sever your jugular vein or your carotid artery.
So he had to have been already unconscious or near death at the time when she extended his neck in order to deliver that fatal wound to the neck underneath the jawbone.
PINSKY: Jillian?
REYNOLDS: You can only hope he was unconscious at that point because it`s so disgusting to think about what he may have been, you know, consciously aware of. And my other question is, she went through this whole diatribe about, you know, this was -- you know, he was the guy that kind of attacked me.
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: This is a defensive thing that I`m doing --
PINSKY: Is it possible that she`s going to say that he chased me into the bedroom and I just slashed at him and I happened to get his neck?
REYNOLDS: But even if she did, and as a woman, I will say this. If you`ve been angry at a man, that is not -- that is premeditated. Twenty- nine times to stab somebody? That`s not defensive.
PINSKY: Right.
REYNOLDS: That`s overboard, that`s gruesome. That`s a complete -- you know, premeditated.
LLOYD: I also had that same theory though. I share that same theory that she was -- understanding that I just killed this guy, I`ve got to create a scenario that looks like three other people killed him as well, so I`m going to kill him here, I`m going to kill him here and then I`m going to shoot him in the head as well.
REYNOLDS: Wait --
LLOYD: I think that`s a good possibility.
REYNOLDS: That story came up -- that was one of the stories.
PINSKY: One of the stories, yes.
REYNOLDS: If I`m attacked, I`m calling the police right away. As soon as it happens, I`m calling the cops. That didn`t happen. You know, all of her stories are a joke.
PINSKY: Let`s go back to the animation. We get the neck wound when he`s down in the bedroom. Can we show that animation? OK, there he is.
LLOYD: He`s probably already unconscious, he`s probably very close to death, massive blood loss. Now, he`s stuck in the bedroom ready to die and she wants to deliver his body back into the bathroom, and that`s where the dragging takes place.
The coroner confirmed the presence of --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: She takes him in, drags him in and shoots him in the head.
LLOYD: Gets him inside the bathroom and shoots him. And shots him -- the shot itself was not lethal. There was not much bleeding. Further indicating he was probably already dead, a central rule. If you`re bleeding, you`re still alive. He wasn`t bleeding at that point, and the autopsy showed very little hemorrhage in the head.
The bullet entered right above the brow, crossed into the frontal lobe of the brain, and then exited out through the maxillary sinus on the left side, but not much bleeding. I`ll tell you, Drew, if that was the only injury he sustained, he would have been able to escape. But the combination of the lethal stab wound to the chest and of course that incredible wound to the neck ended the story right there.
PINSKY: And now, she drags him further into the shower, sort of stuffs him in there and that`s that. So, we have the animation to show -- the end of the little, here we go, so here she is, she shoots him in the head --
LLOYD: That`s right. She delivers --
PINSKY: Then delivers him into the shower; is that right?
LLOYD: Delivers his remains all the way to the shower. And you notice in some of those shower photos, his right arm is above his head and it`s an open door. If someone is already dead, then their limbs are down, and when you`re dragging them, their limbs are down and they`re just tossed in.
The fact his arms were above his head suggests he may have had one last breath in him trying to protect himself before she walked out of that shower.
REYNOLDS: I know a lot of people on the defense as well were saying how a woman could do this to a man. But let me say, if you have the element of surprise, a butcher`s knife, a gun, this guy is in the shower. You`re at your most vulnerable when you`re naked.
He`s not expecting this. I mean, he probably knew she was a little on the cuckoo for cocoa puffs side but not to this extent. So, you know, is it possible she can continue killing a body that`s not fighting back?
LLOYD: A couple of points, don`t forget, she photographed before she stabbed him. During the charge in the commission of this murder, your adrenaline is running. Drew, you can talk about that. People in these crazy situations, they have superhuman strength.
REYNOLDS: She had sex before she killed him, so there`s a whole other aspect. That`s completely sick.
PINSKY: Which is bizarre, but people can lift small cars when they`re really charged up.
REYNOLDS: What about the photos?
PINSKY: We`re going to get into the photos, and we have both Jodi and Travis nude, so pay attention. And be careful --
REYNOLDS: I`m interested in the photos she mistakenly took while she murdered him. Forget the nude ones. The murder.
PINSKY: Absolutely. There`s stuff that`s on the timeline there. Plus, a videotape of Jodi saying she should get the death penalty, she would beg for it.
And later, a guest who says he has new information about the Steubenville teen rape case that no one else has. He`s going to share that with us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Jillian Barberie Reynolds is my co-host this week.
Jurors saw a video today of Jodi Arias being interrogated by police just after Travis` death. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE: I know you took pictures of him in the shower just before he died.
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED MURDERER: I don`t think he would allow that.
DETECTIVE: And the camera actually took a couple of photos by accident during the time he was being killed.
ARIAS: Really?
DETECTIVE: Yes, Jodi, really.
ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life. I`m not guilty, I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re going to show you some of those photos in just a minute, but --
REYNOLDS: Interesting.
PINSKY: It is interesting.
REYNOLDS: Back and forth. If I killed him but I didn`t hurt him. But if I did, I deserve the death penalty.
PINSKY: I wonder if she`s really dissociative. I`d love to hear her voices in different situations.
REYNOLDS: Is that a sociopath?
PINSKY: It can be or somebody that`s so severely empty on the inside that they sort of adopt and adapt to whomever they`re around and sort of take on personalities.
REYNOLDS: Which could explain her obsession with him if he was interested in somebody else.
PINSKY: People that are of that empty can have what we call borderline rages. It could be really rough.
Mark Eiglarsh, what do you do if you`re defending a woman who says that on the tape that a jury hears?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Take a plea.
PINSKY: Right away.
EIGLARSH: Seriously.
PINSKY: So why is this being played out?
EIGLRASH: I mean, try to -- try to work this out, because winning is defined by doing everything you can to get her the best possible outcome, which in this case means, at a minimum, saving her life. When you`re running with this defense in an atrocious, heinous, cruel set of facts, what you`re doing is you are increasing the chances of actually getting the death penalty, because you`re trashing the victim.
I just don`t think it`s the strongest choice.
REYNOLDS: Also, you know, we`re saying why is this playing out? Isn`t this a case of shouldn`t -- the taxpayer dollars and why can`t we see a matter of --
PINSKY: Plea bargaining.
REYNOLDS: Plea bargaining, like you said, and it`s the lesser of all evils.
EIGLARSH: Well, she has to want to. She has to want to.
I have clients who don`t want to take anything. Listen, the state of mind of this girl is in question. Fortunately, no one has to prove motive or why she did this because there would be reasonable doubt all over the place. No one knows why.
But with that kind of mentality, I have a difficult job as a defense lawyer, assuming I`m representing her, because she doesn`t want to act reasonably, she doesn`t want necessarily take any offers, she probably loves the limelight, she loves this. It`s part of her, you know, whole 15 minutes, and I think it would be very difficult to defend someone like her.
PINSKY: Mark, I thought you were talking about Casey Anthony for a second there. I like the theory -- we used to call it social identity disorder. These are things that are sort of -- there is a lot of controversy in the mental health field whether that thing really exists.
I`ve seen cases like this where something like social identity disorder has played out. And they`re capable -- I mean, somebody with severe rages and provoked situations.
Lisa Wexler, I`m going to go to you.
LISA WEXLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, WFAS-AM: Yes.
PINSKY: Why do you think there are so many mistrial attempts by the defense?
WEXLER: Well, I don`t know about the mistrial attempts, but I will tell you, Dr. Drew, as I`m watching this, I`m thinking of the Alfred Hitchcock movie "Psycho." I mean, really, except there is a man in the shower instead of a woman in the shower. It`s the most graphic depiction of a murder that I`ve seen in popular culture in a long time.
I agree with the defense counsel. The only thing to do here would be to beg her to take a plea, because the more we see of this case, the more we know that she should not stop go, she should be directly to jail, if not worse.
I can`t really think of something more dramatic in front of a jury that would justify a death penalty. I mean, after all, he was at his most vulnerable in the shower. What kind of self-defense? There is no evidence of self-defense whatsoever. None.
PINSKY: Let`s look at some of those photos that were in court today, and I warn you these things are explicit, so here we go. Let`s go these -- while we look at these photos, Michelle, I want to go to you.
DR. MICHELLE GOLLAND, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
PINSKY: Do you believe -- Dr. Michelle Golland -- do you believe any of the theories I`m beginning to formulate here, that somebody who is capable of being sexually provocative flips on somebody else in that rage state when she thinks about being a jilted lover.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. Clearly, there is borderline features here. And the other thing that I want to point out is that she -- the thing that is important to look at, and this is not at all blaming the victim, but is also understanding what is it about people who also stay with and engage with someone who even their friends were not happy about and people -- you know, Drew, we know when we feel a personality disorder walk in the room, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
GOLLAND: And when I hear his friends talk about her and what they had been warning him about and not comfortable, that`s what it reminds me of. It reminds me of that moment where I`m like, OK, I can feel energetically the difference of where someone wants to fuse, where they just want to engulf you. And I think it`s a very dangerous endeavor.
We`ve seen this with other men that women have killed that were affairs and things of that nature, and I always say you have to be really careful who you bring in the bedroom.
PINSKY: Well, Dr. Golland, I want to break that down a little bit, Jillian, because you`re really talking about fatal attraction.
REYNOLDS: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And the public -- and people and this guy had his own trauma history. He was homeless and he had addictive parents, as I understand it. And so he sort of felt responsible. He probably took care of broken parents his whole life, or addicted trauma survivors himself.
REYNOLDS: Right.
PINSKY: And so, this woman comes into his life and takes advantage and does successfully fuse with him, that she can`t distinguish him and her anymore, they`re together.
REYNOLDS: Right.
PINSKY: I think we all kind of relate to that feeling. That she really gets in and when she tries to break away, she`s shattered. She can`t tolerate it.
REYNOLDS: And he puts up with more because he came from a broken past, so you`re probably willing to put up with more than -- as you were mentioning, his friends had seen, they were really uncomfortable with her.
PINSKY: That`s right. We`ll take a call here.
Amanda in Louisiana. Amanda, do you got a comment?
AMANDA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Yes. I think the writing is on the wall literally. She had adopted his habit. She changed religions, her identity. In self-defense, why would she use two different weapons if it was self-defense?
PINSKY: Right. I mean, this whole idea -- yes, the gun --
REYNOLDS: The grandparents` gun, the knife, and the infliction of the wounds itself. That is not self-defense. That is absolute brutalizing somebody. That is torture and --
GOLLAND: It`s the classic case of, you know, if I can`t have you, nobody will have you.
PINSKY: Doctor, do you agree with all these theories?
EIGLARSH: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Mark, hang on a second. Dr. Lloyd, do you have any addition?
LLOYD: Yes, I certainly do. I wanted to go back to the point about the size of the weapons that you mentioned. You know, any sharp knife can puncture, but in order to kill this man, the weapon not only had to puncture but continue the task of severing vital structures like that vena cava, like the jugular vein, like the internal carotid.
It happened because she planned it. She photographed it. She sexed him up and then she knocked him off.
PINSKY: Next up, tape of Jodi Arias` friend who said that Jodi was always brightened up the room when she came in. What does she think about this woman that we`re just not seeing here?
And later on, has social media caused us to wrongly judge two high school teens accused of rape? We have someone who says he knows more than anybody, and it`s been reported wrong. We`re interviewing him later.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Jillian Barberie Reynolds joins us today as a co-host.
You were saying something kind of interesting.
REYNOLDS: Well, first of all, it`s interesting that women -- women are capable of pain of crimes, obviously, but what I`m interested in is some of the chyron, and we`re guilty here as well, that said beauty Jodi Arias. How about alleged butcher or not even alleged murderer Jodi Arias?
PINSKY: So, the fact that --
REYNOLDS: Yes, she`s OK looking, she`s lovely, you know? But is that even a factor that we should even be talking about?
PINSKY: It should be. But there`s something in there that people don`t -- somehow if you look a certain way, they don`t expect you to behave a certain way, something weird --
REYNOLDS: It is, but I know women are capable. I`m very good friends with Debra Tate whose sister is Sharon Tate, and I`ve been to those hearings with her as family support and to see these women now well into this --
PINSKY: The murderers.
REYNOLDS: The murderers. I`ve been to their hearings.
They were women not only were capable of murder, but a butchering of pregnant woman who was almost ready to give birth. So, women are definitely capable --
PINSKY: What Jillian is --
REYNOLDS: It`s just always bizarre that it`s a woman.
PINSKY: What Jillian is saying is women are evil. I think that`s what we`re agreeing upon here. Is that what you`re saying?
REYNOLDS: Most, a lot of them are. A lot of them are. Especially women in television, but that`s a whole other story.
PINSKY: Let`s go to -- let`s go to a quick call.
This is Veronica in Hawaii. Veronica, what have you got for me?
VERONICA, CALLER FROM HAWAII: Hey, I knew Jodi personally in Rancho Mirage, California. We worked together. She would be in the packing lot refusing to go to work because she couldn`t get him on the phone.
I said, Jodi, leave the boy alone. She goes, I can`t, Veronica. He`s the only man I want to marry. He`s the only man I want to have children with.
PINSKY: Veronica, when was this?
VERONICA: This was back in 2008. She worked at the restaurant for four or five months.
PINSKY: Did you notice anything peculiar about her? Is there anything you can tell us --
VERONICA: Every night. She had a flat affect. She was horrible at the job, but she got it because she was pretty.
And she -- and owners of the restaurant would say, I never want her at my table again. I would say, Jodi, what happened? And she`d say, nothing.
REYNOLDS: What restaurant was this because she lied and said she worked at a place called Margaritaville. There was no such place.
VERONICA: Bull. She worked at Bing Crosby`s in Rancho Mirage.
PINSKY: In Rancho Mirage, in the desert.
VERONICA: And she was living in a house, at Palm Desert Country Club. And she was trying to get me to buy this house for $300,000.
PINSKY: OK. Was she -- does she create chaos? Were she -- did you see any aggression? Was there anything about her that was --
VERONICA: No, Jodi does not show outwardly anything. Jodi stays at a flat affect. Jodi -- she would be telling me, I`ve got to drive to Arizona, Veronica. I`m going tonight after work. And I`d say --
PINSKY: Veronica, when you heard, were you shocked she was capable of something like this?
VERONICA: No, because she abused an animal, I know.
REYNOLDS: Oh, gosh. Well, a lot of Jeffrey Dahmers start with animals.
PINSKY: Tell me about. Again, we cannot confirm or deny what Veronica is telling us, but go ahead. Please tell us what you know.
VERONICA: OK. We had an employee there. He was getting there. His wife was allergic to the cat. He asked her to take the cat. But two weeks while they went on honeymoon, she told me where it`s at. She said, Veronica, I`m going to do it. So, she took the cat in.
After two weeks when the guy got back from his honeymoon, she came up to me and said, Veronica, when I went back to get the cat after two weeks - - I said, two weeks, what do you mean? She said, I left it in a dark room with enough food and water. A lot at her and I was about to strangle her right there. And I had a whole (INAUDIBLE).
And she said the cat was shaking horribly, Veronica. I guess I kind of felt bad. Oh!
REYNOLDS: Showing she`s obviously heartless. Are you watching the trial at all, Veronica?
VERONICA: Yes, ma`am.
REYNOLDS: And so, your thoughts are?
VERONICA: That`s Jodi. She won`t show you what`s going on in her. She won`t show you.
PINSKY: Did she ever sort of flip into different characters where you were sort of surprised by the sort of range where she almost seemed like somebody else?
VERONICA: No, because Jodi has flat affect.
PINSKY: She was flat.
VERONICA: She doesn`t show happiness or sadness or nervousness. She -- oh. My grandmother had a saying. Butter wouldn`t melt in her mouth.
PINSKY: I`m going to say, Dr. Golland, you know, one of the things about sociopaths is they don`t experience much anxiety. So --
GOLLAND: Exactly. That`s exactly what I was thinking.
PINSKY: If Veronica is telling us something accurate, that would sort of fit with the sociopath/psychopath spectrum.
All right. Veronica, I hope you`ll hold for me because I have no doubt I`ll have more questions for you.
Next up, I promise to show you a tape of Jodi`s friend who alleges a different side to Jodi. I`m going to have Veronica maybe ring in on what this other friend is saying.
Then, I`ve got a guest who knows more about the Steubenville rape than anyone else apparently. He`s an insider and he says he`s going to tell us a different story. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are back talking about the Jodi Arias trial with my co- host, Jillian Barberie Reynolds and our guests. Now, as I said, she`s got some supporters. I want to show you part of an in-session interview with her friend, Donavan Bering, talking about the Jodi she claims to know.
And I have Veronica -- as by the way, I`ve said before, I can`t confirm nor deny the veracity of what Veronica is telling us, but I want her to respond to this tape. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONAVAN BERING, JODI ARIAS FAMILY FRIEND: I know Jodi well enough to know that if the situation could be taken back, it would be taken back. Jodi -- Jodi -- would not be in the situation she`s in if she could have helped it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Veronica, there`s someone that claims she knows -- I`m going to have the whole team listen to the Veronica respond to this knows Jodi. What do you say to that little tape?
VOICE OF VERONICA, SAYS SHE KNEW JODI ARIAS: Well --
(LAUGHTER)
VERONICA: Well, anyone who feels bad about something, Dr. Drew, is going to fess up. OK? This little girl --
(LAUGHTER)
VERONICA: Boy, she`s going to try the best she can to get out of it. I don`t understand the mentality of it, doctor, but boy, I sure worked with her and I knew her. And what I see in her trial and that flat affect and her just holding it all in and just acting like nothing is wrong.
PINSKY: And Veronica, was anyone ever concerned about her? Did anybody get the willies? Did anybody --
VERONICA: Oh, yes. I had co-workers at the restaurant who said, Veronica, stay away from her. What are you talking about? She`s a pretty little girl -- oh no, Veronica, stay away from her. There`s nothing wrong with her. She doesn`t show emotion. She doesn`t get upset. She doesn`t cry. We are wait staff. We are emotional, we are passionate, and she had nothing.
JILLIAN BARBERIE REYNOLDS, TV HOST: I have a question here, Dr. Drew. You know, we`ve all had that friend that goes a little too far, calling the acts and you`re like easy. This looks a little obsessive --
PINSKY: Stalking behaviors.
REYNOLDS: Yes. And it`s just desperate behavior.
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: Are you born with that? Is that something that, you know - -
PINSKY: No, you`re not. That`s sort of more has to do with your ruptured relationships in childhood and think psychopathy can be something you are born with --
MICHELLE GOLLAND, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Which also a big --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Go ahead, Dr. Golland.
GOLLAND: Which also brings up the idea of what was her childhood like? Clearly, and not that there`s any justification for this, but we know, you don`t just come into the world and do this, OK? So, it`s important to understand how these personality disorders develop and how someone could become so flat and so lacking empathy and consciousness that they would do what it seems she did.
PINSKY: Although my understanding is if it`s a psychopath as a opposed to a severe borderline or other kinds of trauma personalities, that does tend to be a brain issue that is more genetic. And otherwise, Mark, you were trying to say something. Let me ask you before -- you`ve made your comment, but I also ask would you put -- where is the mom?
Why isn`t she on the stand? Why aren`t some of these supporters up there, you know, defending her, given her sort of a character profile that makes her look a little better?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Well, first of all, the court of public opinion doesn`t render a verdict, so that`s something that I try not to address as much as the courtroom. Now, in the courtroom, the defense is in a classic catch-22. They can`t prove this self-defense probably ever, but without evidence of self-defense, and as Jillian said, her view kind of reflects every opinion I`ve received on Twitter and Facebook.
That is, the evidence is inconsistent with self-defense. So, the only way you have a chance is if somebody testifies to it. That means you have to put her up on the stand, and I never like putting defendants on the stand because I can`t control how they`re going to do. I got to say one more thing, by the way.
July 15th, 2008 was the day that Caylee went missing. July 15th, 2008 is when Arias was arrested. Ironically, both Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias spent July 15th, that same day, lying to law enforcement.
PINSKY: That is the one thing we know about both these women. They lie, lie, lie. Yes. It`s bizarre to think -- Lisa Wexler, I`m going to go to you. I mean, these investigators, these women look them straight in the eye and just cold-blooded lying in a way that`s hard even to understand, and then --
REYNOLDS: Think about what they`ve just done. Think about what they`ve just done. They just butchered somebody, of course they can lie.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead, Lisa.
REYNOLDS: That`s so secondary compared to what they`ve just done. That`s nothing compared to butchering a human being.
PINSKY: You`re right. Lisa?
LISA WEXLER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I agree --
(CROSSTALK)
DR. BILL LLOYD, HAS PERFORMED OVER 500 AUTOPSIES: Let`s get past the lying. We`re not talking about the lying as much as the compartmentalization.
PINSKY: Yes.
LLOYD: That`s what amazes me, Drew. She`s able to take a story, put it in a package, put the package over here, and then go kill somebody.
PINSKY: That`s right.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let me just say, though, that severe compartmentalization is really disassociation where people literally are not aware of what they`re doing and those -- they gray out or black out --
LLOYD: She`s like a living Lego. She snaps off a piece, she kills somebody. Snaps a piece on, drives to Utah and finds a new boyfriend. It`s amazing.
PINSKY: Lisa, I`m giving you the floor. Go ahead, Lisa.
WEXLER: Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say the irony of this is that the reason the mistrial motions have been made is that the defense is accusing the prosecutor, the detective, of making a mistake, the detective of lying, if you will, or making negligent mistakes about the order of the weaponry was used which is, frankly, to my mind, completely irrelevant.
The judge threw it out its bogus which is why the mistrial motions were denied. So, the irony here is that they`re putting it on the other foot, which is, you know, ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: I agree with you that it`s irrelevant, but it does come to play that if she did stab him first, that`s torture, and then shot him, then that`s more, I guess, energy for the death penalty. It`s more evidence for the -- if she shot him first, it`s less painful than stabbing. Listen, I agree with you.
(LAUGHTER)
REYNOLDS: It`s all --
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I think you`re splitting hairs, Jillian. I think you`re totally splitting hairs. I think the jury is going to see a pattern of such gross cruelty.
PINSKY: OK, guys, cruelty is the word. Disgust is what I`m feeling. Thank you to my panel. Thank you, Dr. Billy Lloyd, for your insight to this case. And also to Veronica for calling in. I bet some reaction on Twitter. People sort of substantiating some of the things she was saying about rancho mirage and palm dessert. We will cover the Jodi Arias trial again tomorrow.
Next up, is social media to blame for the way teenagers look at sex and violence? A Steubenville insider says he has shocking new information about what is really going on there. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Jillian Barberie. She is our co-host this week, and we`re about to go at some social media controversy, and I checked my Twitter during the show. We`re live so we can get some feedback. In fact, we`ve got interesting --
REYNOLDS: You`re obsessed with Twitter, so am I.
PINSKY: I`m not obsessed. Debbie Niemyer (ph) says "Why are you always commenting so much in Casey Anthony and Jodi Arias lying so much? Many perps lie." Point well-taken.
REYNOLDS: Yes. And it`s absolutely true.
PINSKY: I`m just -- I`m used to my patients lie. I`m used to people with disorder lying. I`m just not used to this kind of a bold --
REYNOLDS: You`re used to people in the television business lying to you. It`s just -- yes. There`s a whole other thing.
PINSKY: This bold-faced lying.
REYNOLDS: You know, you`re lucky because you have kids. I have two kids, but they`re pretty young. Yours have gone through life not being so exposed to Twitter and Facebook and how craziness that it is.
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: And I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old, and they don`t even use pens. They go to school. They`re on this with their finger.
PINSKY: That`s right. We don`t even know the impact of all this yet and that`s why the Steubenville case caught my attention. Now, we heard a lot about the rape case in Ohio. Two teen football players in that town are charged with rape. It`s played out on social media.
John Zeigler lived in Steubenville for almost a year. He wrote a book about that particular high school football team called "The Dynasty at the Crossroads," and he has some information. So, John, I`m going to let you lay it out. What has the media gotten wrong?
(LAUGHTER)
JOHN ZEIGLER, AUTHOR, "DYNASTY AT THE CROSSROADS": I`m not sure you have even time for that, Dr. Drew. basically, what has happened here, and just for the record, I was a former TV sportscaster at the NC (ph) affiliate in Steubenville, then spent an entire year with this team and with this coach, wrote a book about it.
And I`ve also been working on a documentary film and a filmmaker now about what I believed to be the false narrative that happened in the Penn State Jerry Sandusky case. So, I`m watching this really recreate itself in the media fixation on an alleged football cover-up in Steubenville.
I know the coach very well. I called him up. And for about a month, I`ve been in constant contact with him trying to advise him on how to handle the media here and also to find out what happened. So, last week, I went to Steubenville for three and a half days, and I actually spoke to people. And I found a lot.
And there are three basic things here people need to understand. Number one, guilt in this case is far from certain. Number two, there was no cover-up. In fact, the basic facts, much like the Penn State case, don`t even come close to allowing someone to conclude that there was a cover-up. And number three, all of this information on social media that has come from this Anonymous internet hacking group has been bogus, fraudulent, slanderous, libelous.
They have committed at least nine felonies according to one Ohio prosecutor. They`re hiding behind masks. They`re not saying who they are. They are frauds. Almost everything they have said have been false.
They have ginned up an enormous amount of false media coverage and a false narrative has been created to destroy a town, and there are many innocent victims here, Dr. Drew, and the truth is one of those innocent victims in my view.
REYNOLDS: How about the girl, John? Is she a victim in your eyes --
ZEIGLER: Very possibly the girl is a victim, and whatever happened there was horrible, but let`s let the criminal justice system work its way out. We will find out what happened here. And by the way, if you read the probable cause transcript, Jillian, then you will find out that this case is far from open and shut.
REYNOLDS: Listen, you lost me when you said you were sympathetic towards Jerry Sandusky, but I will entertain you. I will entertain you for one second.
ZEIGLER: Thank you.
REYNOLDS: Do you think you`re a little too close to these guys and that`s what -- you know, you got close -- you`re a sports guy. You want to be an athlete. You got to got that, you know -- so you live vicariously (ph) through them, and you`ve gotten to know them, and now, you`re writing nice things?
ZEIGLER: No, actually, I`ll tell you something. This coach and I have the (INAUDIBLE) on numerous occasions. This coach, we know (INAUDIBLE) one of the most successful coaches in all high school football. He has made my life miserable on numerous occasions, but I know him and I know this town and I know this program, and I can assure you the facts do not back up a cover-up.
He has been incredibly straightforward and honest with me from day in this whole thing. The media has gotten it wrong in Steubenville, and innocent people are having their lives and reputations destroyed for no reason.
PINSKY: Well, here`s my concern. I want everyone to watch the video of a teen boy who appears to be mocking the rape. This video is really what got my attention. I was really -- I`m not -- we are not the criminal justice system, so I have carefully navigated away from the case, itself. The fact that a girl who is acting out sexually, who may have been using substances was not protected by that community, and is mocked in this video.
That`s what got to me, and that the young people didn`t understand what was going on in this video, you see it in the room. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They peed on her. That`s how you know she`s dead because someone pissed on her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a scale of 1-10 how dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s at least a 14 dead. She`s deader than a doormail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is, she is, she is deader than Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s deader than Harvey Dent after Batman tackled him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lisa, I want to go to you. I don`t care if that guy was nowhere near Steubenville when he made the statement, but never heard of Steubenville, just a young male and his peers talking about a girl that way who may not be well and should be protected. I`m stunned.
WEXLER: It`s stunning, but you know, it has to be said that there is a lack of respect. There is a culture that allows young men and some young women to believe that the victim is responsible for it because after all, she had taken whatever she had taken. She even, quote/unquote "deserved" it. And we see this a lot.
You know, at the University of Vermont last year, there was a fraternity that was punished because were -- they had circulated among themselves a survey of who would you like to rape, Dr. Drew. And so, the fraternity got its wrists slapped by University of Vermont for a while, but I was stunned with that.
There is a culture out there that is desensitized to women. Frankly, I think they need to roll play. I think they ought to be though as part of health class what it`s like to feel like a woman on a day to day.
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I think that our culture -- I wanted to say one other thing, Jillian. I think our culture has failed our boys and girls significant --
PINSKY: Oh yes.
WEXLER: What are they doing at these parties, on Xanax and alcohol without any adult supervision passing out or not? What is going on with our youth? We have failed them. We have not given them any rituals that set themselves up to behave morally.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Jillian, final comment, then I got to take a break.
REYNOLDS: Quickly. You know, boys have always acted in a certain way, and so, girls now at social media ups (ph) things up. They`re on tape. They put it out there. It`s on Facebook. It`s on Twitter. They want --
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: Exactly. There`s like that whole competition, but at the end of the day, I don`t think putting teenage boys in some class to respect girls is going to -- you either have it instilled in you as a child by your parents or you don`t.
WEXLER: No, I don`t agree with that.
PINSKY: Everybody hold --
WEXLER: -- can be taught sensitivity all the time. I don`t know -- people can be taught sensitivity in many different ways, shapes and forms. That`s why we have therapists. That`s why we have --
PINSKY: But hey, here`s the deal. We don`t teach. That`s the whole point. It`s not a cognitive process.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`ve got to take a break. Next up, social media violence, teenager, sex, we`ve got it all, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. We`re talking about empathic failure and how we have failed young people. Just a reminder, when I was saying at the end of the last segment, we don`t teach in treatment. You build a close relationship, and it`s in the context of a closed, intimate contact with another human that our brains develop the capacity for empathy.
And without empathy, how can we expect these young boys to respond anything we`re trying to teach? John, you say that the boy on the tape was not -- which just showed a few minutes ago, was not at the party in question, did not even see the intoxicated girl. My question is, so what? I don`t care if he`s sorry or not. What do you say?
ZEIGLER: Well, first of all, I have empathy for the victim here, and I also have empathy for those who are disgusted by that video. That boy`s own attorney was disgusted by that video, but it`s important that we understand what that video is. That video is apparently a drunken-induced, bizarre fantasy bragging that has nothing to do with what actually transpired.
News media have taken that tape and try to pretend that we can use that for evidentiary value to determine what transpired here. It`s irrelevant from an evidentiary standpoint.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m going to ask my guests to please not speak on each other for our viewers home. We have -- excuse me, Michelle, Dr. Golland, we have delays in these various videos. There are many of us here and you`ll see us seem to be interrupting each other so we can kind of get a rhythm and hear each other. I apologize to viewers at home. Mark, go, and then Dr. Golland.
GOLLAND: Thank you.
EIGLARSH: I got to defend John. John is making some very valid points. No question that the conduct on that videotape is abhorrent, it`s irresponsible, but what`s happened is that has grossly prejudiced those defendants in the criminal case who had nothing to do with that video.
And it`s very difficult for people to keep that separate, particularly, because the media, who I love, is showing it over and over in the context of discussions about the criminal case. It`s fundamentally unfair.
PINSKY: Dr. Golland.
GOLLAND: First thing that I want to say is to Mr. Ziegler, and I have to say, you better be very careful and not let your ego guide your sense of belief that you would have some sort of special power for them to be truthful to you.
(CROSSTALK)
ZEIGLER: I`ve actually spoken to the people involved in the case.
GOLLAND: Wait, can I actually speak? And, I find it very funny that you think that the most successful coach and the book that you have titled "The Dynasty" would not have something to lose. I think you need to wake up.
ZEIGLER: Why don`t you look at the facts. You don`t know the facts. You haven`t talked to any of the people in this case. I`ve been there. I`ve lived there. I`ve spoken to the people involved.
PINSKY: Everybody, we got to play nice. Play nice, guys.
GOLLAND: OK. I have to say, but there`s a special prosecutor. They`re going to trial. Do you think that you -- you must be like a superhero.
ZEIGLER: Which is why we know there`s no cover-up. Which is why --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: OK. Guys, hold on. I want to go a caller. Gina, Wisconsin. Gina, what do you got?
GINA, WISCONSIN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Gina.
GINA: The more I listen to this, the more I watch this, it just infuriates me. Girls these days are so over sexualized by the social media.
PINSKY: Yes.
GINA: I have an 11-year-old daughter. And to think that I have to look at this kind of stuff and have her be a possible victim, you know, you`ve got all these kids that are on facebook, and you have to be 18 years old to even have an account on Facebook. And for me to be an uncool mom and not allow my daughter to have a Facebook account is so --
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: Gina, I`m so with you. the over sexualization, and the -- I get it.
PINSKY: During the break you were saying how anxious you were --
REYNOLDS: I`m so nervous. I turned to Dr. Drew and I said, how did you do it? You have three, you have a girl.
PINSKY: No, I have one girl, two boys.
REYNOLDS: I know, but you have three kids, one girl, and it`s a little different with girls. You want to be protective. But like Gina said, you`re the uncool mom. And you know what if I am, I don`t care if I can protect them a little bit.
PINSKY: Dr. Golland.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLLAND: I`d like to point something out first, please.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOLLAND: The issue that we`re talking about, and we talk a lot about this, Drew, in bullying, right? And what we`re talking about, the most disturbing part of this case is the social media as well as the bystander effect. What did not happen is that people did not intervene.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOLLAND: People did not stop this. And that`s --
PINSKY: Dr. Golland, I`m running out of time, but yes, we saw that. And when somebody was pushed onto the subway recently, we`re seeing more of that kind of thing. Lisa, I`ve got 20 seconds. You want to make a final remark (ph), please go.
WEXLER: I have a question for you.
PINSKY: Yes.
WEXLER: It`s a question for you, Dr. Drew. Why is it that this generation thinks that unless they videotape themselves doing something, it didn`t really happen?
REYNOLDS: Right. They`re not alive if they haven`t videotaped.
PINSKY: How about after the break, I`ll quickly answer that. Thank you to Dr. Bill Lloyd, Dr. Michelle Golland, Mark Eiglarsh, Lisa Wexler, and John Ziegler, thank all of you. Check out John`s book "Dynasty at the Crossroads." Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. We got a very lively conversation tonight, and before the break, Lisa Wexler asked me why kids seem not to think that something has even happened or didn`t exist or isn`t worthwhile unless it exists out in the internet space. And the reality is I don`t know if I have a good answer for that because this is the first generation that has that.
I think, Lisa, you make a great point that it is a fact that kids seem to not really -- things aren`t really important or they aren`t elevated to a status of sort of social relevance.
REYNOLDS: Yes, social relevance.
PINSKY: And we`ve been worried for a long time that there`s sort of a narcissistic trend in our culture. And so, you know, things that are based on real relationships, things that are based on our emotions are devalued or minimized or distanced, and so, these things out there that exist out there are just one further step away from our own bodies, our own ability to regulate and our ability to be in relationships with people.
REYNOLDS: So, has that affected your job at all? In other words, when you see people coming to you with different abuse of substances, sex, whatever it is, it`s amplified, yes?
PINSKY: Well, its -- these are pseudo-relationships online, even though, you may go to the Twitter --
REYNOLDS: Well, I thought, at first, you were doing it for headline, but I looked and it was all personal accounts.
PINSKY: No, no.
REYNOLDS: I`m kidding.
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: You talk to a lot of woman followers on Twitter, let me tell you.
PINSKY: No, I`m just saying.
REYNOLDS: But you know, it doesn`t make -- like I`m on TV everyday, so are you --
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: Does that validate you to have a certain amount of Twitter followers, because how many do you have, by the way?
PINSKY: I have like 2,800,000.
REYNOLDS: Two million?
PINSKY: Really it`s only because, only because I was -- Twitter adaptors (ph). That`s really the reason I have all this Twitter page.
REYNOLDS: It doesn`t but you know, for people that have them, it does to them.
PINSKY: It`s very strange. I`m not a huge --
REYNOLDS: That`s still a lot of people.
PINSKY: That`s a lot of people. I feel indebted. I feel like I`m responsible to have to communicate with them.
REYNOLDS: And do you respond to every single one of them?
PINSKY: That`s impossible. That`s impossible. Listen, so Lisa --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We have we don`t have a great answer for this. It`s probably a very complicated topic as yet to be studied. Thank you, Jillian, for joining us this evening.
REYNOLDS: Of course, I`ll be back again tomorrow.
PINSKY: You`ll be back with us again tomorrow.
REYNOLDS: Thank you.
PINSKY: I want to thank all my great guests that joined us here tonight because really interesting conversation. Again, I apologize for some of the talk -- crosstalk because that`s a function of our delays and things here. So, appreciate the patience with that. And a reminder, "Nancy Grace" begins right now.
END
