Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Jodi Arias Murder Trial
Aired January 15, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILLIAN BARBERIE REYNOLDS, CO-HOST: Tonight on DR. DREW ON CALL.
Is she guilty of murder? Jodi Arias` story has changed multiple times, a tangled web of lies that even she couldn`t keep up with.
Tonight, the pathology of liars. How liars do it, how they get good at it, and how they get caught.
And later, a night of underage drinking leads to an alleged rape of a 16-year-old girl of two teenage boys in Steubenville, Ohio. Tonight, a shocking documentary exposes the world of binge drinking by taking us into the lives of four young women devastated by it.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: And welcome to the program. My co-host for the week, Jillian Barberie Reynolds.
And, Jillian, before we go out to Beth Karas, I want to play a sound bite from last night`s show. Remember we had -- well, somebody call in claiming she knew Jodi Arias?
REYNOLDS: Yes, of course.
PINSKY: OK. It was Veronica. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VERONICA, CALLER: Hey, I knew Jodi personally in Rancho Mirage, California. We worked together. She would be out in the parking lot refusing to go into work because she couldn`t get him on the phone. And I said, come on, Jodi, let`s go to work. She said, I can`t, Veronica. He`s the only man I want to with, he`s the only man I want to marry and have children with.
I had coworkers at the restaurant who said, Veronica, stay away from her. What are you talking? The pretty little girl, the young thing. Oh, no, Veronica, stay away from her. There`s something wrong with her!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, we haven`t been able to confirm this work relationship, but what Veronica said about Jodi was consistent with what others have said.
Jillian, it was kind of interesting, wasn`t it -- I find it fascinating that people around her, Travis` friends, her coworkers, all recoil, like they have a sense that there`s something not right.
REYNOLDS: Something is off. That`s what everyone seems to say about her. Although she was very good-looking and she engaged you with her looks at first, there was something a little strange when you went a little deeper.
PINSKY: And Veronica mentioned that she -- from her perspective, she was flat and didn`t seem to have access to emotions. We even see that in the video we`re looking in the courtroom. And not only is she flat, but then she adopts the attitudes and movements and sort of almost the appearances and the rhythmic activities, motor activities of people around her. You see that in the courtroom, which suggests really -- I`m not saying just emotionally. Like the self is not fully formed. She -- those kinds of people can be prone to rages or sort of disassociations where they don`t really remember where they are and act out in rages.
So, let`s hear about what happened in court today. I`ve got "In Session`s" Beth Karas.
Beth, what did happen today in court?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Well, the big story today, Dr. Drew, was her statement to the police, the day she was arrested and the day after. She finished the interrogation on July 15. We started hearing it yesterday, we finished it today.
And then the day after, she wanted to continue the discussion, and that`s when she came up with a different version of what happened. It was no longer, "I wasn`t there, I would never hurt Travis." It was, "I was there, I heard him get killed, I didn`t see it." She said there were two intruders, a man and a woman.
She never gives a motive for why they would want to do this to Travis who was a very clean individual who didn`t deal in drugs and didn`t seem to have any reason for people to want to kill him this way. She says the woman wanted to kill her, the man didn`t. They gave her a chance -- Jodi could escape. But they said, don`t you ever, ever report this. We know where you live. Your family will be in danger.
And she went through a very detailed story of the killing of Travis, which to me sounded like she was actually talking about being there and doing it herself at times because she said he was bleeding a lot, he was still conscious, he was stabbed all over, he was shot in the head first, he was holding his head. And so, she may have been describing things that she did and saw.
PINSKY: It`s just so bizarre. When you hear these people lying -- Casey Anthony, for instance, used to lie like that, you hear these poor investigators trying to get something -- something -- of the truth from these women, and they just continue to fabricate. I don`t know, Beth, was there sort of a feeling in the courtroom about the stories she was telling, what they were watching?
KARAS: Well, here`s the problem. Everybody is sitting there listening to this, knowing that she`s admitting it, right? Right from the beginning, on the first day of the trial, her lawyer stood up and said she killed Travis, but she had to, they gave her no choice, it was in self- defense.
So here she is now incarcerated, now charged with first-degree murder and she`s making up a second version of what happened. First denial, now I was there.
This was her opportunity to say you guys got it all wrong. I shouldn`t be charged with first-degree murder. This guy was coming at me. I was defending myself.
And she doesn`t. She makes up another story.
So the jury is listening to this and they`ve got to be wondering, what`s going on here?
REYNOLDS: Well, and also to use that as a defense, you know, self- defense, at what point do you say, okay, this person is not threatening me anymore, is that after stab 18, after stab 25? I mean --
PINSKY: That`s what`s bizarre about it. Yes, that`s what`s so bizarre.
Listen, thank you, Beth, for that report.
But lying is the issue here, and that`s the thing I always try to get my head around, is what -- how could somebody lie so incredibly well?
So, joining us to discuss, Marcia Clark, former prosecutor and author of "Guilt By Degrees." Steve Kardian, former police detective. I also have criminal defense attorney Monica Lindstrom.
Monica, how hard is it to get the jury to make the leap from liar, which is what Beth was just telling us, everybody in the courtroom knew she was today, like a wild liar, from liar to murderer?
MONICA LINDSTROM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not hard to make that leap at all because they`ve basically been presented with the evidence and the statements that she did kill him and she was lying. So there`s not really even a leap there, it`s a given. Everybody knows that she lied and she did kill him.
So the jury -- they`re looking at this and they`ve got to know that she`s got big problems about lying and telling the truth and making things up, and they`re probably just wondering, you know, like Bev said, what the heck is going on with her that forces her or makes her believe that it`s OK to lie and to do these things?
If she was my client, I know that I can`t get rid of those lies. I can`t wipe those out of the jury`s mind, so now I have to start thinking about what can I do to try to explain this? And that`s when I would start looking at people like you, Dr. Drew, and seeing, you know, is there an expert that can come on and do something here.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I could do -- I`m used to drug addicts lying. I could easily defend a drug addict lying because they lie and don`t even know they`re doing it. But in this situation where she has her faculties about her -- I`m going to Steve Kardian.
Steve, your profession is one that comes up against this all the time. I shake my head every time I read one of these investigations or see these video clips of someone being investigated and just crazy lying, you guys know when someone is lying? What`s going through an investigator`s head?
STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, we go through every investigation/interrogation with the presumption that we know we`re going to be lied to. We know that, we take that as a fact.
And there`s three things we start out in the investigation. We know what we believe. We think we know what she wants us to believe. And then there lies the truth somewhere beyond that.
So it`s an interesting -- it`s like a chess game with the mind. What we have to do is keep them talking. We know that they`re going to be partial truths. We`ve got to dig deep and obtain those partial truths and turn them in to something that we can use to extract a confession.
Now, when we`re interviewing this individual, if we use common-sense tactics and we play our game really well, we`re going to extract, we`re going to break down and we`re going to get the truth.
If we throw a curveball, say we tell them something they know is not correct, then they`re going to go into denial.
So, our good investigative tactics will bring truth, the bad investigative tactics will bring more lies.
REYNOLDS: I have a question, and I`m just wondering, out of all of this. I mean, we already know she`s capable of shooting a human being, of slicing -- butchering a human being. The lying -- I feel like we`re hanging on to -- of course, she`s capable of telling a bunch of lies. So what is this -- what is this really about? Is this about, you know, the next level -- does it really matter?
PINSKY: I don`t think -- Marcia Clark, that`s why I want to go to you. I think that`s a great question to you. Which is, you`re a prosecutor, you`ve seen all these lies. There`s an admission of participation in the slaughter.
Does lying matter to someone like you?
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTED O.J. SIMPSON: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Oh, yes.
CLARK: Oh, yes. I love those lies.
PINSKY: OK.
CLARK: I love those lies because you`re talking about this is proof that the person is unrepentant, is not contrite. A true abused victim who kills in the act of self-defense, even if it`s unreasonable belief in self defense will generally say, I did it, I`m sorry. I didn`t know what came over me. I mean, I was scared, I was this or that, whatever it was.
REYNOLDS: Or they`ll call the cops, Marcia. They`ll usually the cops.
CLARK: Yes, they`ll call the cops and turn themselves in.
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: Because they didn`t do anything wrong.
CLARK: That`s right.
So these lies tell me self-defense? Horsepuckey. There`s no self- defense.
And, by the way, Jillian made a great point. You know, after the 17th time, the 18th time, how many times do you stab him and when do you finally get out of danger to the point you can stop stabbing him -- ridiculous.
REYNOLDS: Yes.
CLARK: So I love the lies and I love the ability to be able to say to the jury, this is no abuse victim. That`s not what they do. So, it does matter.
PINSKY: So, Steve, do you have a theory about what this woman is? I mean, I know you`ve seen people sort of black out when they become violent and you`ve dealt with all kinds of character and character problems. What`s your theory on this woman?
KARDIAN: It`s aligned with sociopathic behavior. That`s the only thing that comes to mind. She has no empathy. She has no guilt for what she did.
PINSKY: Yes.
KARDIAN: And she`s using the self-defense theory. And we know every state in the United States has a primary aggressor law.
PINSKY: Yes.
I want to thank Beth Karas.
Next, we will talk to one of Travis` friends.
And later, more bizarre video from late testimony in court today.
I`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS: My phone died so I wasn`t getting back to anybody. I drove 100 miles in the wrong direction, over 100 miles, thank you very much. So, yes. Remember New Mexico? It was a lot like that, only you weren`t here to prevent me from going into the three digits. So fun, fun. Tell you all about that later.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was part of a voicemail left by Jodi on Travis` cell after she had killed him. Monica, I want to get your reaction to that.
LINDSTROM: You know, this really didn`t surprise me that she actually called and left a voicemail after the fact, because it goes with all of her lying so far. She was creating an alibi. She drove up to Utah to see another boyfriend.
So that in and of itself did not surprise me. But what we`ve noticed is her behavior with these lies. And in this voicemail, her voice sounds very high pitched, she`s talking a little quicker and she clears her throat twice.
When we compare that to her other interviews where she`s kind of calm. She talks quickly but she`s more calm.
I guess I would ask you, Dr. Drew, looking at this and looking at her behavior between the voicemail and the interviews, do you think that there is -- if I put you on the stand, there is anything there that you could maybe explain to the jury --
PINSKY: Yes.
LINDSTROM: -- this is why she acts this way?
PINSKY: I don`t know about this is why. I have two theories flying around in my head. But, yes, you`re so right about how she sounds. She sounds hurried, and sort of like she has somewhere to go --
REYNOLDS: Fun, fun.
PINSKY: She`s very intentional on what she`s doing. Not the way somebody would leave a message about, hey, sorry I drove 100 miles. You`d be sort of --
REYNOLDS: She was laying out her alibi.
PINSKY: She was laying it very clearly -- in a clear way. It was very interesting.
I would say, I was like Steve, I think psychopathy, sociopathy is a very distinct possibility here. We`ve heard over and over again that he doesn`t have feelings, that people recoil from her.
When people don`t have normal feelings, it`s a strange thing to be around. You feel like they can`t relate to you, you feel like their mind content isn`t what it should be, and it can recoil some people versus she is someone who disassociates and in those dissociative moments has severe rages. That`s someone who had severe abuse in childhood.
While the psychopath or sociopath, particularly with sociopath, is something that you`re actually born with. There`s a certain part of the brain that doesn`t work.
REYNOLDS: Why do people that have traumatic child experiences go on to do something like this and some do nothing at all? Is that a gene?
PINSKY: They do research on that? We`ll be able to stop them if we`ve got to know.
Yes, their resiliency factors, their genetic factors, and then how it`s perceived, what kind of resiliency and recovery that was from it. Plenty of people have these conditions and are amongst us and do just fine.
You were abused.
REYNOLDS: Sure. But I would never -- I have a question --
PINSKY: Yes, from Twitter.
REYNOLDS: Yes, from Twitter, which is a good one. It says, do you think -- this is from Pamela. Do you think that Jodi will get the death penalty or life because of her good looks?
It sounds like a trivial question, but I pointed this out last night. We have said beauty kills victims. I have an issue with that. Yes, she`s an attractive woman, but I hate -- why is that moniker on there?
PINSKY: And not only that, is it going to affect the jury in terms of their probably of going to the death penalty.
Marcia Clark, I`ll go to you with that. You also had something else to say. Go ahead.
CLARK: I do. I had a question for you, Drew. But, first of all, to answer your question, yes, it does affect juries. It really does. When a defendant doesn`t look like a killer, when a defendant looks more innocent, especially a woman, it`s more likely a jury is going to find a way to show mercy.
I remind you all Lizzie Borden who was proven, I think, seven ways from Sunday, to have murdered both of her parents, was acquitted by the jury. So, people don`t -- you know, there is this kind of lesser desire by the jury to either punish a woman or certainly send her the death penalty.
PINSKY: Well, and, Marcia, I will say that there`s actually research that shows the more baby-like, the more estrogenized a woman`s face is, the more inclement a jury tends to be.
REYNOLDS: That girl from Italy.
PINSKY: That`s right.
You had a question, Marcia? Go ahead.
CLARK: I had a question to you, Drew. I wanted to ask you this. You know, I think that the defense is clearly going to push for exactly what you`re talking about, the dissociative state, and that would be their best defense. To say I suffered trauma as a child. By the way, Casey Anthony, right, daddy molested me --
PINSKY: Yes.
CLARK: -- and therefore I have this problem.
They`re going to go for that, I`m sure they will, and they`ll call someone like you.
PINSKY: I can`t wait.
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: After you said that, let`s say, doctor, you`re on the stand. I`m the defense attorney. You`re my favorite witness of all time. And dissociative state, rage-induced, she doesn`t know what she did, she can`t remember.
But after -- but, you know, at some point she wakes up and sees what she`s done. Then she splits and goes to bed with his buddy.
PINSKY: Yes, I would say --
CLARK: How do you square those?
PINSKY: If I were trying to help you with the case, and I did not have any direct information about the individual, I would postulate that perhaps she disassociates into multiple sort of personalities and really sort of -- not that she has multiple personalities necessarily but then she goes into a compartmentalized state where she literally doesn`t remember what she did, she remembers that she`s angry, she compartmentalizes her life with him over here, and goes about her business.
It`s disgusting, it`s not OK, and we can talk about whether someone has volitional control over that kind of thing and whether they`re aware of that kind of thing, but it`s something -- I agree with you. I think it would be very wise for the defense to go there, and I can`t wait to see if they do it.
Quickly, I want to introduce Dave Hall. He`s one of Travis` friends. He joins us.
Dave, what did you know about, Judy? Did you have that sort of recoil feeling that so many reported about her?
DAVE HALL, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: You know, not too many of us knew much about Jodi. She wasn`t very talkative. She didn`t give us a whole lot of background on her life, her childhood, her hobbies other than a little bit about photography. And so, we really didn`t know too much about her while she was dating Travis.
PINSKY: Did she seem -- people on Twitter often complain that we step on our guests. There is a delay and we kind of always step on each other. It`s nothing we can do anything about, I apologize to our viewers.
But let me say, is there any sense she wasn`t having feelings. That`s something that`s been reported, that something about her feelings, her ability to feel anxious or identify feelings in others was somehow impaired.
HALL: You know, she might have had feelings, I just never saw highs and lows. I never saw deep despair and I never saw a joyous reaction from her. It was more melancholy. She spent an entire week at my house when her and Travis came up to visit, and the entire week, I might have gotten three or four sentences out of her. So, there just wasn`t a whole lot to go on.
PINSKY: That didn`t strike you as bizarre?
I mean, three sentences in a week with somebody? Did you have any sense of who she was?
HALL: You know, I chalked it up to her being shy. I thought, you know, maybe she`s the type of girl that until she gets to know you she doesn`t start to open up, and I didn`t want to overwhelm her with a ton of conversation and maybe, you know, drive her away.
So I just thought, you know what, we`ll be nice to her and just wait until she feels comfortable opening up.
PINSKY: Well, Dave, I appreciate that you overwhelmed her beyond three sentences. That`s -- wow.
REYNOLDS: I was sorry for you loss. And I was going to ask, did you ever say to Travis red flag? Because I know a couple of his other friends did, and he said, it`s all good.
PINSKY: OK, hold that thought.
I will go to you Dave when we get back from commercial break.
And also, I want to take your calls about Jodi, 855-DRDREW5.
And later binge drinking. There`s -- there you are -- a tape about that.
Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: She planned it, she photographed it, she sexed him up and then she knocked him off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, from our show last night.
Steve, I`m going to ask you about that in just a second, but first, I want Dave to answer Jillian`s question about red flags.
Did any -- you or any of your friends that week pull Travis aside and say, hey, we`re seeing something here?
HALL: You know, there was nothing in his behavior or her behavior that made us feel like we needed to warn him, hey, look, you need to be aware of this. He was a strong guy, very physically fit, very tough guy. We figured, hey, if something goes south, Travis can handle himself. In retrospect, we were wrong.
PINSKY: Yes, but why were you thinking that -- when I`m around my couple friend, I don`t think -- well, if she becomes violent, I guess my friends can manage it. That`s not how I think about my couple friends at all.
REYNOLDS: Or you`re doing it in retrospect now because of what happened, are you thinking that?
HALL: Yes.
PINSKY: In retrospect.
All right. Steve, I`m going to go back to you now and talk about Dr. Lloyd`s note about sexing him up and doing him in. Again, we`re all shaking our head like what kind of animal does that? You know, literally, we can`t believe it. Have you seen cases like this?
KARDIAN: Yes. We see the level of jealousy that was exhibited here. The stalking behavior, as a matter of fact, January is National Stalking Awareness Month. She was a true stalker, from what we can gather.
PINSKY: Yes.
KARDIAN: And we understand there may have been another love interest in his life. And quite possibly she had relations with him, and maybe she posed the question to him with regard to their future, and it may have set her off. She went there prepared to take care of business.
PINSKY: Is there anything about a woman -- really, we`re talking about the fatal attraction thing. People see that film and that happens.
I always think of those people as having severe character problems, heavy trauma survivorship in their own childhood. Is that what you`ve seen, Steve, in cases you`ve seen like this?
KARDIAN: Well, you know, we don`t get so much into the psychological aspect of it, Dr. Drew. Of course, we see that no normal person could commit an act like this.
PINSKY: Right.
KARDIAN: But yes, we see a lot of mental illness, a lot of emotional abuse, a lot of history, past history, that causes something like this. So, to answer your question, yes.
REYNOLDS: Do you think women more so are the passionate ones to end up doing these crimes?
PINSKY: Stalking usually grows out of what can be conceived of as love addiction. People out there in mental health may cringe when I say that, but it`s a way of helping the public understand what this is. Or you become obsessed with somebody, you can`t imagine living without them.
It`s an obsession, and when they`re gone -- men don`t -- aren`t as apt to develop that level.
REYNOLDS: When women do have that and they`re obsessed, when does it cross the line to rage and to murder? I mean --
PINSKY: That`s the individual case. It`s usually not the case. Not every stalker. Not every --
REYNOLDS: Right.
PINSKY: We`re going to do more on this the next time. I`ve got to take a quick break.
Also, if you are an alcoholic, if you binge drink. We`re going to discuss that later on in the show and what that -- the implication of that, those sorts of behavior is for young people.
REYNOLDS: How much is binge drinking? For women, I was shock.
PINSKY: When is it a problem, what are kids up to today, and also more on Jodi Arias. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I don`t really remember except Travis was screaming. I think I got knocked out but I don`t think I was out long. I know I got knocked in the head and I`d gotten knocked in the head once by my dad when he was just really mad and it wasn`t like -- actually, he didn`t knock me in the head, he just pushed me against the wall and I hit my head and I fell.
But anyway, he in this case, I think it was similar because he was screaming, and I was by the bathtub and he was holding his head and there were people there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In this case, I think it was similar because he was screaming, and I was by the bathtub, and he was holding his head, and there were two people there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was just so much in that interrogation shape where Jodi claims intruders came in and killed Travis. I mean, she certainly wasn`t screaming after he cut -- she cut his throat. And the business about me hit by (ph) dad very revealing and interesting.
Now, Jillian, I want to be clear that people don`t get the thought that, somehow, we are in any way casting a wide net and saying that people that had abuse or had emotional issues or had behavioral (ph) disorders become violent. You had a history. You had a trauma history.
JILLIAN BARBERIE REYNOLDS, TV HOST: Sure. Yes.
PINSKY: And nothing like this ever developed.
REYNOLDS: My goodness. I mean, you know, of course not. And like many people had issues growing up of molestation but got through it and worked through it. And, I think, probably, it was related to our next segment, binge drinking. That may, you know, -- I could do some correlations there. But as far as this out, no --
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: That`s an obsession. I`ve never been that kind of girl. I think if the guy is not into me, I`m not -- I don`t want to be chasing up - - you know what I mean? Why waste your time?
PINSKY: And there`s biology and psychology --
REYNOLDS: Sure.
PINSKY: -- someone crosses over that zone where there`s no boundaries between self and other.
REYNOLDS: And there`s no turning back.
PINSKY: And when the other disappears, they are shattered. They fall apart. They can`t handle it. They become enraged. Let`s go to a phone call. Wanda in New Hampshire -- Wanda.
WANDA, NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I feel like you`re talking about my daughter, and I was just wondering what I can do to help her.
PINSKY: What`s her story? Does she have abused? Or was she somebody more in the psychopathic spectrum or she doesn`t -- she tortured animals, doesn`t appreciate other people have feelings?
WANDA: She was adopted and she had some trauma from that.
PINSKY: How old was she when she was adopted?
WANDA: She was five, but prior to that --
PINSKY: Well, there`s a whole population out there of sort of (INAUDIBLE) kind of reaction attachment -- reactive attachment disorder. Does she have that?
WANDA: Definitely. Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. And so, literally --
WANDA: And she has bipolar.
PINSKY: OK. Please get her treatment. This is what people don`t understand. Attachment and connection to other people is where we come up with our theory of minds, where we come up with empathy. It`s where we learn to have feeling and axis feelings and understand that feelings exist in ourselves and other people.
And when kids don`t have any available adult, when they`re abandoned like so many kids in other countries who got adopted back to this country suffered, they go through critical windows of development and they no longer can develop that in themselves. So, please work on treatment for her.
REYNOLDS: It can be a happy ending, too, because I was adopted and things turned out great, even though Dr. Drew begs to differ. Paulissa in Canada.
PINSKY: Again, people have to listen very carefully when I talk. I`m not saying all adopted kids are going to have -- I`m just saying a kid that`s adopted at age five --
REYNOLDS: Of course.
PINSKY: -- that may have had minimal adult contact to first five years of life who never attached to any human, that`s a significant problem. Paulissa in Canada.
PAULISSA, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Paulissa.
PAULISSA: I just want to say I`ve been abused in past relationships and not once have I ever thought of killing somebody in any shape, form or whatever. I think Jodi Arias, every movement that she does have been calculated, all her lies, her soft demeanor voice. She`s a sociopath. And this is what sociopaths do. She`s a manipulator. Everything she`s done has been calculated from the get-go.
PINSKY: And Marcia, I think that`s -- would be your point of view is you went in to interrogate this woman, no?
MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTED O.J. SIMPSON: Yes, exactly right, Drew. Exactly right. She, to me, is really pretty classic. It`s true that maybe some sociopaths were abused as children and some were not, but they`re still sociopaths, regardless. And she is a classic case. The kind of lies, the glibness with which she lies, the actions that she took to try and cover her tracks would show, really, a total lack of emotion.
And I`m sure there was some anger. I`m sure there was some rage when she was stabbing him 29 times and everything else that she horrifically did. But that doesn`t mean, because she was angry when she did it, that she was dissociative. And, that would be my attack as a prosecutor.
Yes, I`m sure she was angry. Did that mean that she has a mental illness that qualifies legally in any way, shape, or form? And my answer to the jury would be absolutely not. No. She`s a socio path and she was angry. You can be both.
PINSKY: Does she deserve the death penalty?
CLARK: See, that`s a different story. In California, at least, in Los Angeles, we would look at the history of this person in addition to the presenting crime. And generally speaking, we don`t even seek the death penalty, unless, there is some kind of criminal history in the background, that this is not the only -- I`m not minimizing it, please understand, but that there -- this presenting crime is not the only thing in their background.
We usually look for something more. Now, does that mean they couldn`t -- we wouldn`t seek it? No, but it`s less likely. Will the jury go for it? As a prosecutor, does it offend me to go for it? If you have a death penalty in your state, it doesn`t offend me under these circumstances to seek the death penalty. I sincerely doubt the jury will give it, though.
PINSKY: And Monica, I`m going to go to you to talk about a defense here real quick. Here`s a Twitter comment, "One hand washes the other regarding Jodi. If she`s really a sick as she seems to be," this is from Mike Keating (ph), "then he knew it and used her viciously." Would that be a kind of a defense strategy?
MONICA LINDSTROM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it`s a good point because, you know, there`s -- the prosecution is saying that she was obsessed with him, but they`re kind of glossing over the fact that he called her, he sent her text messages, and even though they broke up, they continued this sexual relationship.
So, it is kind of tit for tat. He could have made her go away. He could have not invited her into his home. He could have not continued this relationship with her, but he did. Now, does that mean he deserves what he got? Absolutely not. But I think it`s something that the jury needs to know because they need to know the full picture, and that`s part of the story. That`s part of the picture.
REYNOLDS: It is, but I think, you know, just as adults we get into situations in life, and, you know, we`ve all been scorned or someone -- you just -- you move on.
PINSKY: Yes. You don`t allow that to be a motivation for something disgusting and heinous. Oh, Monica, don`t check your Twitter. People get very upset about those sorts of things. Blaming the victim really gets people upset.
OK. Thank you to Monica Lindstrom, Steve Cardin, Dave Hall.
Next up, is it binge drinking or is it alcoholism? We`ll explain and break down those differences. As we go to break, I want you to watch this from "Faded Girls and Binge Drinking." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 13 when I had my first drink.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirteen, actually.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d say binge drinking is more the norm than it is a rarity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And welcome back. My co-host, Jillian Barberie Reynolds, is with me all week and we`re going to leap into the topic of binge drinking, a documentary film called "Faded Girls and Binge Drinking." Sharon is one of the young women featured, and we`re going to talk to her in just a minute, but first, I want you to watch this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON, BEGAN BINGE DRINKING AT AGE 13: I turned 14 and 14 is kind of, you know, where everything kind of peaked for me. I got buzzed and it felt good so I kept drinking. And I got drunk and that was it. Every other weekend or every weekend, then it was every other day, then it was every day.
This is where I would come and just find a corner that was empty and pass out. I would usually stay pretty close to the ground, like, you know, the first or second floor, just in case anyone showed up, I could leave really quick and easy. We slept on rooftops or, you know, the blocks (ph). You know, I felt like I was on top of the world or whatever. I was in control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me is Sharon herself as well as the documentary`s director, Janet McIntire. So, Sharon, we heard a little clip there of some of the consequences you suffered from binge drinking. It sounds to me like your binge drinking, which we`ll talk about in a minute, progressed all the way to alcoholism rather quickly. Is that accurate?
SHARON: Yes. Fairly quickly.
PINSKY: Were you treated?
SHARON: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: And how are things going now?
SHARON: How are things going now?
PINSKY: Yes.
SHARON: Oh, sorry, I couldn`t hear you. Great. I mean, I`ve been sober for eight years, almost nine years now.
PINSKY: OK. Good.
REYNOLDS: Congratulations.
PINSKY: All right. We --
SHARON: Thank you.
PINSKY: OK. So, help us -- give us sort of a look through the prism here of what it looks like for young people. We`re all very aware that young people are abusing alcohol. Are parents endorsing it in some way? How do the kids get away with it?
SHARON: Where I grew up is very different than how kids are brought up in this state, so, I mean, where I grew up it was very easy for me to get alcohol. I don`t know -- I mean, kids are just very good at hiding it. Some parents are endorsing it. I don`t know. It`s a little bit different in the states than what I`m used to.
(LAUGHTER)
REYNOLDS: So, were you just doing it out of, like, boredom and just why not and just have a couple drinks and see where it takes you? When -- did you -- when did you that know there was an issue or did you? Did someone else step in?
SHARON: You know, I didn`t. My parents stepped in. It wasn`t out of boredom. I had a lot of -- I don`t know. I was a young teenager. I had a lot of problems, you know, disagreements with the family, things like that, and just a lot of heavy influences.
REYNOLDS: Bad influences.
PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about binge drinking versus alcoholism. Alcoholism is a brain disease. It`s a disorder where people lose control over their relationship with alcohol. It`s a genetic disorder with the biological basis, and the hallmark is use in the face of consequence. Health, relationships, school, work, legal status.
Things happen there, and if you have family history, a great way to differentiate whether a kid has early alcoholism versus binge abuse is, is there alcoholism in the family? If there`s alcoholism in the family and a kid has some momentum with alcohol, that is incipient alcoholism.
REYNOLDS: But I don`t know one family that doesn`t have an alcoholic. I certainly don`t.
(CROSSTALK)
REYNOLDS: But let me ask you this, Dr. Drew. So, what is the difference between being an average teenager and experimenting with cocktails and, you know, going out and having a few, and then the CDC saying, you know, four drinks constitutes binge drinking. Well, then, I`m a binge drinker or was, you know? I had four drinks.
PINSKY: Binging is very common, and a single binge will affect -- this is why I tell young people -- will affect their grade performance for a week by a full grade. That`s been documented in research. Four drinks of alcohol, you`re studying for an exam, you want to get that a, you`re not. You`re going to get the B.
But binging is more common in adolescence because the brain isn`t developed up here yet. So, they`re operating from the part of the brain called (INAUDIBLE) which is response to arousal, and fear, and drama and all this kind of stuff, and they can`t regulate it, and so, alcohol is part of that thrill seeking and also part of the attempts of regulation.
SHARON: Right.
PINSKY: Now in your case, Sharon, you actually had some severe consequences when you were younger. Tell us about that.
SHARON: It was my first and last time I ever blacked out. I just put myself in a really terrible situation and ended up being raped.
PINSKY: OK.
SHARON: That`s what happened.
REYNOLDS: I have to say that it being your first and last, that`s very fortunate.
SHARON: It was the first and last time -- yes.
JANET MCINTYRE, DIRECTOR, FADED: GIRLS & BINGE DRINKING: And she was 14.
PINSKY: Yes. And blacking out is awful. And it sort of harkens back to the Steubenville, Ohio situation. Janet, I want to go to you. And that is why this is -- that whole story is so disturbing to me.
Kids that are using alcohol and acting out sexually have a mental illness problem and they need to be protected, not disdained and acted out upon and looked at as scads. What`s going on from your position, Janet?
MCINTYRE: Well, it was interesting, a comment that I gathered when I was out doing research when it comes to the difference between a binge drinker and an alcoholic was a young girl told me, if you`re going to develop into having a true alcohol problem, you go behind the garage with your girlfriend and you sneak the bottle of vodka and you have a contest doing shots, right?
You go home and the next day, you`re thinking, when can I do it again? Your girlfriend goes home, throws up and says, oh, my God. That was the worst. And so, there`s, you know, an innate physical reaction that happens when you have a propensity to alcoholism. But, as far as your first question, there`s a lot of lying.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. Parents are aware of -- if parents are actually aware of what`s going on, things are a lot worse than they imagine or than the kid tells them it is, right? Right, Sharon?
SHARON: Right. And I also saw that parents would rather believe the lies than investigate a little deeper, because they don`t really, oftentimes, want to know the truth about what`s going on.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re right. I think there`s some of that. But again, my basic note to parents is if you`re aware that a kid is using substances, they go to great lengths to hide it from you. So, if it`s actually come to the surface and you`ve seen it or you have evidence of it, get help now.
REYNOLDS: I would want to talk to my kids. You bring something up -- you`re saying the girl has a mental illness. So, where`s the line between just experimentation, being young, passing out or blacking out --
PINSKY: Blacking out is not a normal relationship. On a single episode, I can`t say it`s definitely alcohol. But blacking out with a family history, that is definitely early alcoholism and that`s not normal. Thank you, Sharon and Janet. Find out more about the documentary at FadedTheMovie.com.
Next up, I`m going to go -- we`re going to go phone calls, 855- 3737395. I want calls about Jodi Arias. I want calls about alcohol and binging. I want you and I just to sit down and talk about these things. I want you to share a little more about your story, too.
REYNOLDS: Yes.
PINSKY: So, people understand the difference between --
REYNOLDS: About the alcohol stuff?
PINSKY: So, we can get --
REYNOLDS: I`m a loaded book, Drew. You ask a question if I have verbal diarrhea, I`ll just tell you everything. Sadly.
PINSKY: I think we can get into that a little bit. It will be important for the Jodi Arias --
REYNOLDS: Yes, I think so, too.
PINSKY: All right. Be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: All right. Welcome back to the show. Jillian Barberie is my guest all this week. And I really wanted to dig into your history a little bit --
REYNOLDS: How much time do we got? This is only an hour show here.
PINSKY: Well, tell them just briefly, because I think we come of as being insensitive when we talk about people who have criminal behaviors as having a mental illness. It`s really a dicey thing to say that because then it further stigmatizes people with emotional issues or trauma while I`m deeply, deeply sympathetic to people --
REYNOLDS: Well, my motto was own your crazy. I`ve owned my for years, and as you know, you and I go back 20 years. I`ve been pretty honest about everything in my life. But, I -- it`s interesting, because before the segment tonight, I was reading about CDC and four drinks constitute --
PINSKY: A binge. Yes.
REYNOLDS: Yes. And I`m thinking I know for women, and I know going out with the girlfriends, and I haven`t had a drink since last year, but, because of -- you know, I`m the type of person I go out and I can have a glass of wine or I can have a bottle of wine, and I never know how it`s going to play out.
PINSKY: But you probably don`t have the gene for addiction that would have progressed, but what you had was --
REYNOLDS: Oh yes, I do.
PINSKY: I`m not sure.
REYNOLDS: Wait, I have alcoholics in my family.
PINSKY: I know, but you still don`t have to get the genes. It`s about -- probably even inheriting it is 50 percent per child, even when both parents have the disease. It`s kind of interesting. It`s roughly the way it goes.
REYNOLDS: OK.
PINSKY: And genes don`t mean destiny, but you had the -- talk about the abuse a little bit, because the abuse makes people unregulated emotionally and so substances help us feel better and regulate.
REYNOLDS: When you say unregulated, what does that mean? Just out of --
PINSKY: That feelings -- thank you for asking. Feelings are either disconnected and sort of operating out here and you can`t really feel, you feel just anxious.
REYNOLDS: OK.
PINSKY: And it causes you to act out, or they`re too prolonged, too intense, and too negative. Sound familiar?
REYNOLDS: Well, yes. I mean, my situation is very -- simply put, I was adopted by an incredible family, and I ended up, probably from six to about 10, being molested and -- not by my immediate family at all, they were incredible, but, certainly, long-term effects were, and I didn`t realize it but I was very outgoing and certainly the first one to try anything, whether it be booze, underage.
I remember going -- I mean, growing up in Canada, we`d go to the liquor store and pay somebody, you know, five bucks they took, and we would drink, and literally, I can`t remember passing -- I remember blacking out in a snowbank. I mean, that`s frightening.
PINSKY: Yes.
REYNOLDS: A guy who lives up the street from us did that and they had to amputate his legs.
PINSKY: Oh my God!
REYNOLDS: The point is I was very lucky.
PINSKY: I think the main reason kids binge today is not trauma, though, that`s in there. That`s certainly if you had trauma, you`re prone to it, but it`s the social pressures they`re under. The whole hook-up culture is so unnatural and so intense.
REYNOLDS: And then this (ph) culture.
PINSKY: And that. They`re so disconnected. There`s so much sexual anxiety that they`re using substances to sort of medicate themselves.
REYNOLDS: Do you see younger and younger patients coming in? And I mean, I`m interested, do you see more girls?
PINSKY: I can`t say that necessarily, but I see girls pushing away their feelings more and being unwilling to sort of be intuitively connected to things that are naturally there. So, I`m going to quick call. This is Val in Connecticut -- Val.
VAL IN CONNECTICUT: Hi, guys. Thank you.
PINSKY: Hi, Val.
VAL: Really quickly, binge drinking at 12 years old. That was me. I`m now 35. I`m a professional in Connecticut. I run a preschool with 100 children. I have learned the thing about binge drinking is, for me, it`s more a matter of time management, and I know that sounds horrible, but when you drink --
PINSKY: Again, this is another topic which may be the periodic alcoholic. See, there`s alcoholic --
REYNOLDS: -- time management, I`m sorry.
PINSKY: I think she`s saying she binges so much that she has to not be at work the next day.
VAL: No, no, no. I`m saying I work so much that I have to -- I`ll drink on the weekend. Then I don`t do anything for five days.
PINSKY: That`s what I`m saying. That`s periodic alcoholic. You make sure you drink -- it`s a period binger. That means you make sure you compartmentalize and put it over here because I can skip working and it`s OK because I can keep working. Therefore, I`m not an alcoholic, when the fact is you have an abnormal relationship with alcohol.
REYNOLDS: With alcohol.
PINSKY: I`m going to go to Tami in Nebraska. I`m running out of time. Jillian, I`m sorry. Tami, go ahead.
TAMI, NEBRASKA: Thank you for taking my call, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to touch briefly on -- I`m a single mother with a 15-year-old daughter, and I think we keep wanting to blame the media on over -- giving our kids too much information. I think we`re giving them good information.
There`s bad information. There`s bad things out there in the media, too, but I talk to my kids a lot --
PINSKY: Tami, stop there. Tami, that`s the key ingredient. There`s no bad information if you`re consuming it with the kids.
TAMI: Exactly, and that`s what they need.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree with you.
TAMI: And you have to be honest. You have to be honest with yourself and you have to be honest with your children, and they will learn to be honest back with you. But I believe that all this internet and all that has exposed our children to so much, and I used to be against it, but now, I actually think it`s a good thing.
I don`t think my children will be binge drinkers. I think that they see the effects through the media that this has on children and family (ph), and they don`t want to be a part of it.
PINSKY: I`ve got my fingers crossed for you, my dear. I got to take a break. When I get back, I want to report on the influenza, the flu epidemic. I`m going to tell you, the way the media is reporting the flu is -- they`re doing it accurately, but you have to listen very carefully to what they`re saying. I`m going to try to break it down. It is not what you think. I`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: The Centers for Disease Control, the CDC, says flu cases appear to be on the wane, that they may be peaking in some states. So, here`s what I want people to understand. When you listen to the media, you would think the sky is falling. You would think we`re all going to die of the flu tomorrow, but this is not a record-breaking flu season.
The number of cases, as I said, appear to be peaking, and some illnesses -- this is the really important thing I want you to know. A lot of things are being called "the flu," particularly here in Southern California, are either a viral upper respiratory infection, so nasal congestion, sore throat. That is not the flu. Flu can have that, but it`s fever, chills, frustration, or it is the whooping cough, which is pertussis.
Get your vaccine for that. It is on the -- there is a mini epidemic of that going on right now. Here`s what has happened with the flu this year.
It started rapidly. It`s peaking -- it`s coming on more early than it usually does, and the rate of increase was sort of, hmm, this could be something, we better watch out for it, everyone get their flu vaccines, but it`s not, oh, my God, the worst epidemic we`ve ever seen. Listen to the media, you would think it`s a horrible epidemic. It is not.
REYNOLDS: I was in the media here in L.A. You know that`s like it`s raining and it`s drizzle watch. 2013. But you know what, I didn`t get my flu shot and I ended up in the hospital, and so did my son, but we had the -- we had the front end and the back end.
PINSKY: The flu is nothing -- the flu is nothing to fake (ph) casually. Get the vaccine. And again, you can`t get the flu from vaccine. There`s a live attenuated virus that kids are given, the nasal pray.
REYNOLDS: Right.
PINSKY: We should be getting -- adults should be getting the shot. They`re just protein particles. You don`t feel normally afterwards because your immune system is charging up in response to it to be able to fight it off when it sees those same proteins on the flu virus. Thank you for watching --
REYNOLDS: Look at you getting fired up.
PINSKY: I will be here tomorrow same time. And a reminder -- and thank to my guests and also thank you, guys, for watching. Of course, and "Nancy Grace" begins right now.
END
