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Nancy Grace

Jodi Arias`s Police Interrogation Tapes

Aired January 15, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet up on a work trip in Vegas, and they fall hard. But when the flame burns out and they break up, she then moves 300 miles to get back together, to pursue him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man. But then 30-year- old Travis Alexander found slumped over dead in the shower of his five- bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times, violence so brutal, it resembles a mob hit.

And just hours after Arias stabs Travis to death in the shower, she has sex contact with a brand-new boyfriend, the whole time Alexander`s body decomposing in a damp shower stall. Testimony reveals 27-year-old Arias has wild sex all day with Travis, even photographing the sex. But then within minutes after, she slashes his throat!

Bombshell tonight. Jodi Arias caught in an elaborate web of lies, and it`s all caught on tape. We have the video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I think because I`m a photographer, I tend to communicate more through pictures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I have pictures of you in Travis`s bedroom with Travis. It`s obvious you guys are having sex, date and time stamped on the day he died.

ARIAS: Are you sure it`s me? I mean, because I was not there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you took pictures of him in the shower just before he died.

ARIAS: I don`t think he would allow that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the camera actually took a couple of photos by accident around the time he was being killed.

ARIAS: Really? I wasn`t there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be honest with me, Jodi.

ARIAS: I was not at Travis`s house. I was not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You left palm print at the scene in blood. What`s going on there?

ARIAS: Could my palm print have already been there, and then it touched it?

I`m not a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that, I would wear gloves, or you know, something. I`m not guilty. I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Jodi Arias caught in an elaborate web of lies, and it`s all caught on tape. We have the video.

What a day in that Mesa, Arizona, courtroom! Out to Jean Casarez joining us. Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, it was Verizon telephone was front and center today. And we know from those photos that it was 5:30 PM that Travis Alexander was killed.

Well, a little after 11:30 at night, there is a phone call made to Travis Alexander`s cell phone. It is Jodi telling him she will see him soon, take care. And then five minutes later, there`s a 16-minute phone call to Travis Alexander`s phone from Jodi`s phone. It can`t be voicemail. You can`t talk in voicemail for 16 minutes.

So the Verizon representative said he believed Jodi Arias was checking the voicemails on Travis Alexander`s cell phone.

GRACE: OK, that`s just downright freaky. We already know she stabs a guy to death. By all three of her stories, she`s there on the scene at her murder. Her last one is that she slashed his throat from ear to ear in self-defense. So we know she did it. But now we`ve got her calling back to check his messages? OK, that`s crazy.

Jodi Arias is caught on tape. Liz, please cue up some of her statement to -- oh, you got it ready? Let`s hear it. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) camera. That camera was damaged. Someone put it in the washing machine, ran it through a wash cycle with some clothes of Travis`s. But the card is intact. Remember I told you that card was destroyed?

ARIAS: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t want to tell you the truth because I wanted to make sure those photos were accurate (INAUDIBLE) I don`t care if you delete them six months ago, we can pull every photo that was ever on there, pull the little pixels together, get the timestamps on them. Not all of them, but most of them have timestamps on them. And we can verify those timestamps.

ARIAS: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can keep playing these games over and over again. I am not going to believe you. When you start telling me the truth, then I can believe you. But I can`t deny this evidence. I can`t.

The trip you took doesn`t make sense. The opportunity was there. Your pictures on that date with him, your blood is in the house mixed with his -- mixed, not alongside, but mixed. Your hair is there with blood. And your palm print is there in blood. It`s over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: All right, when she is confronted with all of this evidence -- she`s got the police officer, the detective, who`s a seasoned detective -- Liz, pull me that picture of the bloody palm print. He`s telling her about the photographic evidence that they have. He`s got this photo. He says, This is your palm print. It`s your blood mixed with the victim`s blood. You`re in the home. I`ve got you dead in the water.

Matt Zarrell, she`s not the least bit intimidated. She has a comeback. What is it?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy. She, in fact, alleges that the blood that is in the home that is her blood is from her cutting herself months earlier in April when she was visiting Travis Alexander when she broke a glass in his home. Now, remember, Nancy, she also gave a similar story about breaking a glass working at Margaritaville to Ryan Burns when he asked about cuts on her hands just hours after the murder.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Bonnie Druker, that later on, when he asks about her hand, she says, Well, I don`t have a cut on that hand. And he goes, What about the other hand? And she says, Oh, my cat scratched me.

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Oh, yes, it`s unbelievable, lie after lie after lie. She said, Look, my cat, here`s what she did over here. Here`s what she did over here. Here`s what she did over here -- just one of many lies today, Nancy, that we`ve seen right on videotape, right up there on the jumbo screen.

GRACE: OK, what`s the jury reaction, Bonnie, when she`s sitting there listening to all of her lies? What is the jury doing?

DRUKER: Everyone is just looking mesmerized at the jumbo screen. Of course, the jury, they`re trying not to show any reaction. Some are looking over to Jodi, but most of them are just mesmerized, looking at the evidence right there on the wall.

GRACE: OK, Jean Casarez, Liz, everybody, I want to warn you you`re about to see some very disturbing photos. They are naked photos, number one -- not sexy. Don`t worry about that. They`re photos taken just before the murder.

Jean Casarez, when she was told about these photos, what was her comeback to the detective?

CASAREZ: Well, originally, she denies it. But then when he shows a picture of her without any clothes on, and he covered up that part so just her head showed, she said, You know, that does look like me. So she was surprised.

And then she said, You know what? Maybe it comes from my camera in the storage unit because I had a memory card, and maybe that got in that camera, so they were old pictures from a long time ago. She thinks fast, and it`s excuse after excuse.

GRACE: OK. Out to Ben Levitan, communications expert. Everybody, we are live and taking your calls. We`re at the courthouse in Mesa, Arizona.

Bill Levitan, what is she talking about? Maybe -- well, first of all, she sees herself -- and her vagina, I might add -- on a digicam photo, timestamped right before the murder takes place. And she says -- looks at it for a while. She seems to think for a moment. She goes, You know, that does look like me.

All right, now, Ben, what is she talking about that maybe that`s the memory stick out of my camera and it somehow got into his camera?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Nancy, these are just really bad lies. You know, a memory stick, you know that it`s a small chip. It`s a memory that you put in your digital camera. And it`ll hold, like, 500 pictures or something like that. And you can move that from camera to camera.

But this is such a bad lie, Nancy, because the pictures -- whenever you take a picture, the camera embeds the date and the time and the camera that the picture -- the actual serial number of the camera that took the picture. This is not a good lie.

GRACE: OK, wa-wait. What did you see about a serial number?

LEVITAN: When you take a picture -- you know, any computer document embedded where you can`t see it -- there`s something called metadata. Metadata is information about the file. And when you take a picture, the camera embeds something called metadata, which will tell you the exact time that the picture was taken...

GRACE: OK, hold on. When you`re talking about, like, a memory card, it could be, like, a tiny chip, correct?

LEVITAN: Right.

GRACE: A tiny little -- as small even as a SIM card that goes in a BlackBerry.

LEVITAN: Exactly.

GRACE: So she`s saying that -- is that even possible, for a -- like a SIM card or a memory chip to be taken out of one camera and put in another? Don`t they have to be the same exact kind of camera?

LEVITAN: These are standard, Nancy. They can be moved from camera to camera. You know, you can go to the electronics store and buy standard -- it`s like a little disk. It`s like a little USB. It can -- it can...

GRACE: I got it. I got it. So the theory -- the theory that she`s talking about is possible. It`s just that, Jean Casarez, she`s saying that somehow, the memory chip in her camera, that it was in storage, somehow got into his brand-new camera that they talked about and discussed and he bought after they discussed it?

CASAREZ: Correct. And so it was just sort of a mishap.

GRACE: OK.

CASAREZ: How could this happen? It`s the only thing I can think about.

GRACE: OK, Matt Zarrell, she has an excuse for everything they bring up to her. What are her -- I mean, she doesn`t miss a beat with this guy. And this is a seasoned detective. Arias is just -- she goes down with the ship. What are some of her excuses, Matt?

ZARRELL: Well, first of all, she says as far as the .25-caliber handgun, stole it from her grandparents` home -- she says she`s never seen the gun, never touched it, doesn`t know what a .25-caliber handgun looks like. And yet we already know that she admitted to shooting him with a .25-caliber handgun.

She also, as we talked about, says, referring to the photos, Oh, it looks like me, but she questions whether the photos were actually taken that day or taken a different day. She questions whether there are more -- there`s information that is not being revealed, whether the timestamps have been changed on the photographs and they`ve been tampered with. She also alleges that.

She alleges maybe someone is framing her. She also makes sure to note that she`s all for the 10 Commandments and thou shalt not kill.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have something to tell me, but you`re just so resistant. I know you`re afraid. But you`re already going through it right now. There`s no backing up. There`s no backing up to yesterday. There`s no backing up to that day. It`s already happened. And unfortunately, you`re going to have to face the consequences.

ARIAS: You know, if I did that, I would -- I`d be fully ready to face the consequences. I`m not really for things like -- you know, I`m all for the 10 Commandments, thou shalt not kill, OK? But...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no evidence to show anybody else did it. None.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler, Atlanta, John Manuelian, LA.

Kessler, I really get skeeved out when you`ve got a killer -- a heartless killer, I might add -- who leaves a decaying body in a damp shower stall to start spouting off the bible. Do not even start that because that`s where she`s headed.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it really doesn`t matter what she says. I mean, if there`s a crime, it`s the murder. The spouting off lies, that`s really not what we`re worried about. That`s why we...

GRACE: I said spouting off the bible.

KESSLER: Well, what does it matter what she`s spouting off? If she killed somebody, she`s guilty. If she didn`t...

GRACE: You know, Kessler...

KESSLER: She`s not being tried for spouting off the bible.

GRACE: Why did I even think that a defense attorney would get it? What I`m saying is -- OK, you know what? Forget you two.

To Caryn Stark, psychologist. Caryn, help me out here.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy...

GRACE: It`s all offensive, but to then try to hide behind the bible or to hide behind God when you`re trying to talk your way out of a murder? I don`t expect the defense attorneys to get why that is just so distasteful. But it is.

STARK: It`s distasteful and not surprising because she is really good at what she does. She`s a pathological liar. She`s a narcissist, and she has antisocial personality. She will come up with anything, just as you saw, very, very quickly to cover her tracks.

So now she`s God-fearing. But we know that she killed him. So it makes absolutely no sense, and it is really disgusting.

GRACE: And I`m all about forgiveness and starting over. She can start a whole new life and be forgiven behind bars. That`s the way I`m looking at it!

Out to the lines. Linda in Texas. Hi, Linda. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you and your twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is such a horrible thing. I really do think, Nancy, that she staged the photography. I think she set that camera on a timer. I think she staged the photos the way she wanted and held a gun on him.

And after she killed him, she threw the camera away because the pictures meant nothing more to her after that. That`s the way narcissists are. And I just think she loves -- well, she loved taking pictures of herself. We all know that.

GRACE: What I really liked, Linda in Texas, is when they show a picture of her laying there buck naked, she goes, You know, that does look like me.

And the thing is -- Jean Casarez, you saw it all unfold in court. Did she have any change of inflection when they showed her the photo on -- when they discussed the photo or showed it to her in the interrogation room?

CASAREZ: No, not really. No, not at all. But you know what`s interesting, what Linda in Texas just said, these inadvertent photos -- that`s what the prosecutors say they are. But as I study them and I look at them, I wonder if Linda`s not right, that there was a timer set and she wanted to diagram (ph) and keep taking pictures as she was killing him.

GRACE: OK, you know, Jean? That is sick. That`s sick. That is a thought -- I hadn`t let my mind go there. I have gone as far as saying she`s made -- took her own crime scene photos, but that theory actually is plausible.

Liz, let`s hear some more Jodi Arias caught on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The record shows you reported a gun stolen, a .25 auto. This happens to be the same caliber as the weapon used to kill him.

ARIAS: A .25 auto was used to kill Travis?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, along with multiple stab wounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way...

ARIAS: My hair would have been all over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no other hair.

ARIAS: Can you take -- can you take a hair sample, and like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have your DNA.

ARIAS: No, no, no but I mean, like, you know how they can do drug tests and find out when things were done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can`t do that.

ARIAS: Can`t you measure the time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have DNA matching that hair.

ARIAS: OK, I know, but...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that hair had a follicle on it, and that means that that hair wasn`t there very long. Follicles usually dissipate and go away after a certain time. They`ll fall off the hair itself.

ARIAS: Well, then I would brush my hair there...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi...

ARIAS: I mean...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: She remains nonplused throughout the whole interrogation.

We are taking your calls. With me right now is a very special guest. This is a close friend, even father figure to Travis Alexander. Dr. Karl Hiatt is with us from Mesa.

Dr. Hiatt, thank you for being with us. It`s my understanding that Travis actually told you he feared for his own life. Is that true?

DR. KARL HIATT, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Yes, he did.

GRACE: What happened, Doctor?

HIATT: Well, Travis would come for Sunday meals. And one day, he showed up and was telling us that he had broken up with Jodi. And the next day, he got in his car and noticed that all four tires were slashed, or went to his car and all four tires had been slashed. That story`s been told.

And then he showed up on Sunday and told us about it, and we realized that she was very angry. You know, obviously, we were a little bit shaken and thought, Wow, she`s vengeful.

And then he said, Don`t be surprised. If I don`t show up one of these Sundays, you find me dead somewhere. And we just thought, Oh, wow, you know, she really is vengeful, but didn`t think past that. And then he said, I`m serious. And we kind of laughed it off again. But you know, he was predicting and prophesying his own death by Jodi.

GRACE: When his tires were slashed, Dr. Hiatt, what were his thoughts on that?

HIATT: Well, I don`t really know. I just know he knew she was serious and that she was extremely upset. And you know, he was with her for about five months, just trying to figure out, you know, who she was and was dating her and seriously was pursuing her, you know?

But as he got to know her more and more, he realized that she wasn`t the one for him. And this really -- the tire slashing solidified that decision, that it was a good one to break up with her.

And he wanted to change his life and move on and be more positive, and I think she was kind of dragging him down. So he knew he`d made the right decision, especially after the tires were slashed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: Can I see the pictures?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have your blood at the scene, your hair with blood at the scene, your left palm print at the scene in blood. What`s going on there?

ARIAS: Well, I can explain the blood and the hair, I don`t know about my left palm print.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can you explain the blood?

ARIAS: Well, because I used to bathe Napoleon all the time. And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You haven`t been there since April, right?

ARIAS: Mm-hmm. Well --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s had the house cleaned several times since then. And this hair was not just a hair, you know, in the shower or something. This hair was stuck with blood, and obviously had blood on it at the time it got stuck, where it -- where it ended up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are back and taking your calls. And we`re very pleased and proud to have with us a father figure to Travis Alexander, Dr. Karl Hiatt, a very close, close friend to Travis.

Dr. Hiatt, how did you and Travis meet?

DR. KARL HIATT, M.D., CLOSE FRIEND AND FATHER FIGURE TO TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, I met Travis through my two boys. They actually lived with Travis. They wanted to be in a bachelor pad and leave home. And so they lived with him, rented out a room. The next Sunday they came for an evening meal. On Sundays, we`d gather around and have a meal. They left Travis behind. And they felt so guilty about it. They just said dad, we can`t -- we can`t come back next Sunday without bringing Travis. They became really good friends. So he came for Sunday meal and it just stuck.

His parents, not too long after that, his mom passed away. And so then he came back to Arizona and said OK, you`re my family.

GRACE: Wow.

HIATT: And we felt fortunate to have him consider us that.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Hiatt, I always tend to just ask so many questions. Just out of curiosity, it may not have any impact whatsoever on guilt or innocence, but I`m just imagining all of you sitting around the Sunday lunch table and getting closer and closer and closer. And now this.

I`m still stunned by the fact that Travis actually prophesied, had an inkling. You know, many a true word is spoken in jest when he said, don`t be surprised if you find me dead one day.

As well as you know Travis and from what you know about Arias, what is your reaction to what she and her defense lawyers are saying about him in court? That he abused her. She was afraid of him. That he beat her. She killed him in self-defense and that he`s a sexual deviant.

HIATT: Well, you know, it`s unfortunate, obviously, to hear that. There`s -- none of that is true. Travis -- I have four daughters, and they were his younger sisters. And they had no fear whatsoever of being with him at any time, alone, driving anywhere, going out to eat, being at a show.

We took him fishing with us. We had no -- we had no reservations about Travis. He was never violent. He never raised his temper -- raised his voice, I mean. He never showed any kind of temperament that was -- that was vicious or violent in any way. I`ve never seen that of Travis. He was positive.

GRACE: I just wish there was a way, Doctor Hiatt, that the prosecution could portray the real Travis in court? You know, this is the deal, Doctor. You`re a medical doctor. You know, you`re so much more schooled than all of us lawyers here on the panel, but it`s impossible to get the nature of the victim before the jury. That`s inadmissible.

That jury will never know that Travis Alexander is like my older brother or somebody`s son, just a good guy that got tangled up with the wrong woman.

Let me ask you, what did you think of Arias -- and I know that`s a hard question for you to contemplate now, you know, now that you know. But when you first met her, when you had first been around him, what did you think of her?

HIATT: Well, you know, I try not to pass judgment because as I said, I really trusted Travis. In the end, obviously Travis was right in leaving her. And so I didn`t want to mettle or pry. And I reserved my own judgment. I didn`t want to say anything. And she was very appropriate, you know, when she came over to eat with her family. You know, we told Travis, bring whoever you want. We -- you know, if you want to bring over somebody you`re dating or whatever, she`s welcome.

And so when Jodi came, we felt the same. We didn`t want to be anything but welcoming to any friend of Travis`s. So I didn`t really have any suspicions or anything. I do know when he did tell us things like the tire event, and that she obviously knew that he was doing the right thing in leaving her. He told us a lot more about his desires to change and, you know, go see his bishop and get things right. And we just cheered him on. And --

GRACE: But why did he say he was breaking up with her? What did -- what was his issue with her?

HIATT: You know, I don`t remember. My two boys, who lived with him, they might --

GRACE: Yes.

HIATT: They might have been a little bit more intimate with those kind of conversations.

GRACE: What was she like at the memorial service, Dr. Hiatt?

HIATT: We had a memorial services here in East Mesa and then of course the funeral in California. But yes, she sat there without any emotion. It was just straight. The rest of us that all loved Travis, we cried, we laughed, we -- you know, at some of the memories, the things that he did. We just had every emotion in the memory of the memorial service just like you normally would.

I don`t -- I -- she had nothing. I don`t -- she didn`t cry, she didn`t laugh, she didn`t break a smile. She didn`t -- she didn`t shed a tear. It was -- it was very -- her affect was very aloof, very distant.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls. Out to Michelle in Florida. Hi, Michelle. What`s your question?

MICHELLE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to know, what was her demeanor like in court?

GRACE: You know what? I`ve been -- you know, a lot of times, Michelle in Florida, when I look at her, again, I just can`t draw the analogy enough, she looks like Cousin It, because she pulls her hair down over the front of her face and hide from the jury.

Jean Casarez, what am I missing? What`s her demeanor when she pulls that hair back?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes. Let me tell you something that the camera doesn`t see. Her chair is much lower than her attorney`s chairs are, so she is a little waive in court. You basically see her but she is down, crouched down, the same thing that Casey Anthony was like in court. And that`s something the camera doesn`t catch, but the jury sees it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Also in court today, she dropped the facade in front of the jury and broke down sobbing, sobbing when she saw herself caught on tape during the ninja attack. I believe that`s what -- when she started crying, Matt Zarrell, when she saw herself talking about the man and woman dressed in solid black that came in and murdered Travis in front of her.

I wonder what it was about that story that made her break down and start crying.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, what she told police is that she heard this loud noise. She`s taking photographs of Travis Alexander in the shower. She hears this loud noise. Something hits her. She thinks she became unconscious, she realizes Travis is hurt. She talks about this man and this woman, they were dressed in all black. All she could see was their eyes. They couldn`t get any more details about them. She says it appeared the man and the woman were surprised that Arias was there. She -- and Travis kept telling Arias to go to the neighbors for help.

Arias gives this whole story, says these intruders kill Travis, leaves the house but never calls 911.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Randy Kessler, Atlanta, John Manuelian, L.A.

All right, Manuelian, she starts crying in court when she sees herself in her second version. Now how is that going to strike the jury?

JOHN MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, she could be crying because she feels remorseful for what she did. She could still have a self-defense argument but still regret the fact that her boyfriend is dead. So it all depends on, you know, the -- at the totality of the evidence and how it plays when she`s crying, obviously, and how she`s crying and how long she`s crying. So the jurors are definitely watching that.

GRACE: OK, Kessler, what do you make of Jean`s observation? She`s figured out that Jodi Arias has her chair screwed down so she`s much smaller than everybody else at the table so she looks tiny and petite, sitting all crouched down over there in the corner of the defense table. What about that?

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think we`re making much ado about nothing. Maybe that`s the way the chair came and she doesn`t know how to adjust the chair. I mean, she`s not going to be convicted because the chair is too high or too low. We`ve got to focus --

GRACE: OK. You know what, I --

KESSLER: That is the truth.

GRACE: There was a time I would have hired you if I ever needed a criminal defense attorney.

KESSLER: OK.

GRACE: But to tell me that a death penalty lawyer sitting right beside her can`t figure out how to screw a chair to go up? All right. Yes -- no, I`m not hiring you.

KESSLER: Well, she`s going to be convicted based on her -- OK. She`s going to be convicted because her chair is too low? Come on.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you that.

KESSLER: OK.

GRACE: I asked you what do you make of the ploy? It is a ploy. Now you can either be straight with me and give me the answer, or you can jerk me around, which is what you`re trying to do, but you know what, I don`t care because I know what`s happening in court. No, no, no. You had your chance.

KESSLER: OK.

GRACE: All right. Because, Jean, let`s just tell the defense attorneys again the ploy they`re using in court to make her look pitiful, frail and pathetic, all hunched down over there in the corner of the courtroom.

CASAREZ: These are adjustable chairs, and this one is lower. It`s much lower. And so the perception is someone who is frail and little and small. And even though she admitted doing it, it`s someone that you can have more empathy for, because she`s a little person in that courtroom compared to the others around her.

GRACE: To CW Jensen, retired police captain, also joining me out of Arizona.

CW, have you ever known a woman to kill a man? It`s not unheard of. It happens every day.

CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, and I arrested a bunch of women for killing abusive husbands or boyfriends. But let me tell you, Nancy, of those, let`s say, dozen cases that I did, they did not mutilate and then run away from the scene. What they did was they called the police and said this what`s happened and they stood there, and we arrived, they were ready to tell the truth.

And the biggest problem this woman has done is she did this in Arizona and not Florida because Arizonans aren`t going to buy this.

GRACE: Why do you say that? Why do you say Arizona is not going to buy this?

JENSEN: You know, Nancy, I`ve been doing your show for two years, and it just seems the goofiest cases are always in Florida. And I think that people in Arizona are more pragmatic, first. Second of all, this case is so ridiculous. And I have talked to a lot of liars, when I worked homicide. This is absolutely ridiculous.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Becky in Kentucky. Hi, Becky. What`s your question?

BECKY, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes, ma`am. Thank you for taking my call, Nancy.

GRACE: Thank you for calling me, dear.

BECKY: Ma`am, my question is this. I`ve been watching this whole trial via your show since the beginning. And my question is this. It struck me last night when I was watching all the pictures that were taken in the shower and in the bedroom of her and Travis.

Do they not think that these pictures were taken in premeditation of what she was about to do? I mean, it just seems to me that she tried to lay out this big stage and she -- you know, tried to lay things out so that it would be found in her favor later on in trial. And make him look bad.

GRACE: Good question. To Bonnie Druker, what do you make of that theory?

BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I am not sure about that theory, but I can say that she loved her camera. Even the friends that we`ve had come on the show, they`ve said how much she loved her camera. And she wouldn`t talk, but she would take pictures. So I`m not sure about it. It is a possibility.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Everything else has been premeditated. And why would she take all the photos? The only thing, Becky in Kentucky, that belies that theory is, what discredit it is she did try to destroy the photos, she tried to delete a lot of them, and she tried to put it through the wash cycle which didn`t work.

To Angela in Ohio. Hi, Angela. What`s your question?

ANGELA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call. I`m a huge fan of the show, never miss it.

GRACE: Thank you.

ANGELA: I`ve been watching this trial -- you know, been watching the trial, been up on the case since it began, and I`m curious as to what prosecution attorney basically stated were the reasons for deciding upon the death penalty? Obviously, I think it was the right choice. She`s obviously -- something seriously wrong with her. But I`m curious as to what they stated? Were there reasons going for deciding upon that -- or going for that punishment?

GRACE: Matt Zarrell, aren`t they citing as the aggravating circumstance, heinous -- cruel and heinous?

ZARRELL: Yes. Yes, cruel, and depraves and heinous, especially particularly the gunshot after the 29 stab wounds is the biggest point of emphasis they`re making with that.

GRACE: And, Jean, you`re saying felony murder using burglary as the underlying felony?

CASAREZ: Yes, yes, that is a second theory, felony murder, and its cruelty is that aggravator that they`re going to be allowed to use at the end of this proceeding, if it goes forward to the death penalty phase.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want, I can show you some pictures of him. Do you want to see pictures of him?

ARIAS: Part of me does and part of me doesn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why, because you don`t want to remember?

ARIAS: No --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi.

ARIAS: There`s a morbid curiosity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi.

ARIAS: I wanted to know how he died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you at Travis` house on Wednesday?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. I was -- I was nowhere near Mesa. I was nowhere near Phoenix. I wasn`t even close to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if I could show you proof you were there? Tell me if you change your mind.

ARIAS: I wasn`t there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can be honest with me, Jodi.

ARIAS: I was not at Travis` house. I was not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I have pictures of you in Travis` bedroom with Travis, pictures of him, and it`s obvious you guys are having sex. Taking photos of each other. And they`re dated and time stamped on the day he died.

ARIAS: Are you sure it`s me? I mean -- because I was not there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi, it`s you. And you know it`s you. I know all the details of this case. The only thing I don`t know is why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Liz, let`s see the naked photo that the investigator was -- to which he was referring to. Not that one, the other naked photo. No, no, no, no. Not that one. No, not that one. Liz. Yes, OK, yes, Jodi, I`m sure that`s you. I couldn`t really tell from your rear end, but I could definitely tell from your face, that that would be you.

To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia tonight.

Dr. Manion, Arias tried to tell police that she could explain her blood and hair at the scene because she had been in the home many, many times. But why would she have a bloody palm print mixed with his blood shortly after the dead body is found, they find that. And also her claim that she had cut herself again in his home. It wouldn`t explain Travis Alexander`s blood intermingles on her palm.

DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, somebody you might buy the story that she had cut her leg shaving there because she had visited him. She may try to claim that he had raped her, that he had hurt her and bloodied her during a forceful rape. That might be part of the defense coming up.

But you`re absolutely right, the fact that their blood is mixed on that palm print, there`s no way I can account for that even with the most creative forensic thinking. There is no way I can come up with an alibi for that.

GRACE: Marlene in New York. What`s your question, dear?

MARLENE, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi. Thanks for taking my call, Nancy. If the jury, god help us, believe that this is self-defense, what kind of punishment is she looking at? What kind of sentence?

GRACE: Well, Marlene in New York, I hate to be the harbinger of bad news, but self-defense is a complete defense. That would be an acquittal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Sergeant Joshua Desforges, 23, Ludlow, Massachusetts. Second tour, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon. Parents Arlene and David, sister Janelle.

Joshua Desforges, American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re going through your house right now. So are they going to find anything there that could make you bad for this?

ARIAS: I don`t think they would. I mean, there is nothing that could make me there. I mean that`s pretty --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So, Matt Zarrell, a lot of bombshells in court today, but specifically this tape played in front of the jury. What else did Arias say caught on tape?

ZARRELL: Well, one thing that`s very interesting is that Arias says that she`s not a person who knows much about self-defense, citing that she took a self-defense class eight years ago. Another thing to note, Nancy, is there are two interviews. One interview was July 15, the day she was arrested, one was July 16, the day after she was arrested.

July 15, she says, I wasn`t there, I had nothing to do with it, I don`t know what`s going on. July 16 after a night in jail, suddenly she has this story about a man and a woman breaking in and killing Travis and then she runs away.

GRACE: When did the self-defense story emerge, Matt?

ZARRELL: It didn`t emerge until much later, Nancy. And in fact, Arias has not spoken publicly in self-defense, it`s only in defense motions that we discovered that not only is Arias claiming self-defense, but she is planning and may in fact testify.

GRACE: To Kessler and Manuelian. Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler, how badly would it damage them if they changed their defense yet again at this point, midstream, and said, you know what? It wasn`t self-defense, it was blind anger. It was heat of passion. I had been having sex with him all day long, literally. Here are the photos to prove it. And then he tells me he`s going to go to Cancun with another woman, and I just snapped.

KESSLER: Well, I think she`s desperate. I think she`s going to say whatever it takes. You know, her lawyer, I`m sure, has for a long time been saying don`t talk, don`t talk. And he`s got a client that likes to talk, and now at this point, that may be their only option. If she can convince, persuade the jury that she`s somehow likeable or more likeable than she`s being portrayed, that may be her only hope. This person is going to testify and, god help her, she`s got to --

GRACE: Manuelian?

KESSLER: She`s got to hope the jury loves her.

GRACE: Do you agree?

MANUELIAN: I -- I do agree. I think the -- I think the defense is trying to deflect the capital charge and more deflect it towards the second-degree murder charge. If they could show something similar to an imperfect self-defense or something that she snapped and the 27 stabs were because it was 27 times that she was abused physically, or something for the jury to, you know, sink their teeth into, I think they may --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Right.

KESSLER: Say no to the capital punishment and go straight to the second murder.

GRACE: Everyone, "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END