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Jane Velez-Mitchell
More Police Interrogation Tapes Played in Jodi Arias Trial
Aired January 16, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Brand-new police interrogation tapes revealed in court in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Will listening to Jodi`s litany of lies sway the jury? They had some astounding questions they asked today. We`re going to analyze them.
And I`m going to talk to a close friend of Travis Alexander`s who spent a lot of time with Jodi at the memorial for Travis and actually drove her to a police interview. What he has to say about Jodi`s behavior will curl your hair.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, jurors see more diabolical behavior from defendant Jodi Arias, as cops grill her on camera. After denying she killed Travis, she then claims two ninjas slaughtered Travis as she watched.
But as she tells that ridiculous story to a skeptical detective, is she weaving in the real details of how she actually shot and stabbed Travis?
Jurors ask a slew of questions. What`s this jury thinking now about Jodi`s self-defense claims?
And we`ll talk to a man who spent a lot of time with Jodi after she killed Travis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis is telling me that you did this to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nine-one-one emergency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: So I`m as good as done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.
ARIAS: Pigtails?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ARIAS: If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people lie, there`s an effort to throw a little truth in there to make the lie more believable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Jodi Arias comes face to face with more of her lies inside an Arizona courtroom. Will a jury convict Jodi of murder after watching these chilling, astounding police interview tapes, or will they still believe her claim of self-defense?
Good evening. Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live with the very latest.
The stunning 32-year-old photographer admits she stabbed her ex- boyfriend 29 times, slitting Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear, shooting him in the face.
In the interrogation room, Jodi denies killing Travis, but she says, well, if she did kill him, she would have done it in a nicer way. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I would never stab him. If -- if I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was make it as humane as possible. Quick or something. You know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course now, we know Jodi has admitted she did, in fact, kill Travis, claiming self-defense. But do these autopsy photos look like a humane way to kill someone, slicing and dicing them?
And when she was finally forced to admit, "Yes, I was at Travis`s house," in front of overwhelming evidence, Jodi then also is forced to admit, "Yes, I did have a kinky sexual rendezvous, including triple-X photos that we took, after having sex." Jodi and Travis took photos like this one of Jodi laying naked on a bed wearing pigtails in a possible role- playing sexual game. And this one of Travis lounging around naked on the bed after sex.
Jodi told cops that they had sex all afternoon. And then two ninjas with facemasks slaughtered Travis and barely let her escape with her life. Well, investigators obviously did not buy that absurd story. And they pushed Jodi to come clean, tell them the truth, and give them the motive for why she killed Travis Alexander. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: What`s my motive?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jealousy? Anger? Fear? Fear of being alone? Angry at him for not keeping you in his life? I don`t know. That`s why I`m trying to figure it out. There are so many motives with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think about these interrogation tapes and her demeanor? Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
In a little while, couple of minutes, we`re going to talk to somebody who spent a lot of time with Jodi. First, straight out to "Inside Edition" correspondent Beth Karas.
You were in court today. We were waiting for Travis`s other girlfriend to take the stand, and the prosecution in a late afternoon switcheroo said, "Oh, we better not." Tell us about it.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes, Juan Martinez says, "We better not," because he said, "We never called Jodi Arias a stalker. The defense called her a stalker, and we`re calling Lisa Andrews" -- she`s married now. She has a different last name -- "and she`s going to say things that now I`m afraid, if there`s a conviction, an appellate court will say, `Oh, that was so inflammatory,` and throw the case out and send it back for a new trial."
It`s because Lisa Andrews was dating Travis Alexander at least at some point at the same time Jodi Arias was. So they`re overlapping. And when Travis was out with her once at her house, Lisa`s house, there`s a knock at the door. They go to the door. They open it. And Travis`s tires were slashed. Nobody`s there, but the tires are slashed. And it happened again, I think the next night.
And then Lisa Andrews`s tires were slashed, and she asked Travis to stay overnight because she was afraid. She said they didn`t have sex. She just wanted protection.
Three different sets of tires slashed three different nights, and then she got a nasty e-mail, purportedly from Jodi Arias.
So Juan Martinez said, "That may be so inflammatory to the jury."
and the defense said, "You know what? We`re going to call her."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. And I want to bring in our attorneys. We`ve got Jordan Rose. We`ve got Aaron Dewey. We`ve got Nishay Sanan.
Jordan, why doesn`t the prosecution figure this out a long time ago? I mean, they suddenly -- well, you know, maybe not. I mean, we all know about prejudicial evidence, that it could be used to appeal if you`re convicted. Why build up all this anticipation for the girlfriend and then say, "Eh, never mind"?
JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: You just -- you don`t know what`s going on in the mind of the prosecutor, but they may be looking at the jury, reading the situation, and understanding that, you know, maybe we can get there without this testimony that may actually allow the defense some sort of appeal basis if she is convicted. If it`s extremely prejudicial, it could be a negative for the prosecution, and I have to believe that`s what the prosecutor has determined.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course, if it happened, if in fact she did run around slashing everybody`s tires, what better evidence could there be? But the jurors don`t hear that.
And that`s why I say never predict what a jury is going to do, because they don`t hear everything we`re hearing. The jurors have this very narrow, narrow information that they`re allowed to hear, and they`ve been paying very close attention.
And guess what? I thought this was the most shocking thing today. They had a lot of questions for the investigator. You`re allowed to do that in Arizona. The jury is allowed to ask questions.
Listen carefully to the questions they asked, because I think it doesn`t portend well for the prosecution. It`s not an open-and-dunk -- open-and-shut case. It`s not a slam dunk. Listen to these juror questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jurors have some questions for you. Were there any sets of knives that appeared to be missing a knife? What were the alibis given by those roommates? Was the gun that was used to kill Mr. Alexander found in Ms. Arias` possession?
STEVE FLORES, LEAD DETECTIVE: No, it was not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Roommate alibis. Have they forgotten that Jodi has admitted she`s the one who inflicted these awful wounds to her boyfriend?
Nishay Sanan, criminal defense attorney, when I heard this, I thought Casey Anthony all over again. The whole world is screaming how guilty she is. And they`re asking, "Well, where were the roommates? Do they have an alibi?"
NISHAY SANAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think one of the biggest problems is one of the reasons the prosecutor decided not to call this witness, is this jury is paying close attention to what`s going on, and I think the prosecution is concerned that this ex-girlfriend or girlfriend at the same time that Jodi was dating Travis Alexander would say something to even make it worse for the prosecution.
I think the defense is setting up their arguments. And I think they`re doing a great job, and the jury is sitting there listening.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, I was shocked when the jurors asked oh, what about the roommates? Do they have an alibi? Who cares? She`s admitted she sliced and diced him.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well -- well, maybe the jury is thinking what I`m thinking. I don`t think her word is too good today. And I mean, you can`t take Jodi Arias`s word for anything, only because now you want to?
I mean, first she gave one story. They don`t get there until a month later to arrest her. Then she gives another story about the ninja robbers that are there. Then she finally comes up with self-defense, which also has no corroboration for.
I mean, this girl maybe is going to say that she was bullied into that. Maybe she`s going to say that the interrogators -- that she felt she had to say it. You know, you never know what she`s going to say next. So you can`t rely on her word.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She did say -- she never said that "I killed him in self-defense." This was something that came up two years later in paperwork, when -- when they had time to study all the evidence and they realized, "Oh, we can`t say we weren`t there. Well, we can`t do this silly ninja story. Well, let`s go with self-defense."
WEINTRAUB: Well, that`s what...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talked about lies. During interrogation, cops confront Jodi about the naked photos taken right before Travis was killed, even pointing out her pigtails. Listen to this woman talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.
ARIAS: Pigtails?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I`ve got pictures of you that I`ve blown up, and you`ve got the little mole right there. It`s the same one. It`s you; it`s obvious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Pigtails? Me? Me?" Yes. This photograph right there of you in pigtails.
Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect." You`re writing a book on this case. I thought that those juror questions prove what I always say, there is no way to predict what`s going on in the mind of a jury. And I wouldn`t be surprised. Jayne Weintraub could be right. She could come up with a totally different story if she takes the stand.
SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR: Well, it sure did make me nervous, too, when I heard those jury questions. I mean, why would it matter if the roommates had an alibi or not? I totally agree with you, Jane.
You know, I think that it might just be a product of the jury being curious. I know a lot of people have asked the question, why -- how could roommates live in the house and not smell or not notice that their roommate was gone for five days? It might have just been some sort of jury curiosity.
I cannot think that the jury in Arizona will not convict her. I mean, it`s so clear; the prosecution`s case has been so strong. I would have a really hard time thinking that they`re thinking anything other than first or maybe second-degree murder.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I would agree with you, except that I sat through so many cases: O.J. Simpson case; the Robert Blake case, where he was accused of murdering his wife, Bonnie Bakely; the Michael Jackson molestation case; the Casey Anthony case. All open-and-shut slam-dunk cases. And in each case, the defendant walked.
Let`s go to the phone lines. Dee, Florida, your question or thought. Dee, Florida.
CALLER: Yes, hi.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
CALLER: I have two quick questions. One, will she get offered any bail? And two, it`s been said that she`s so persuasive with men, then why would the state allow so many men to be on the jury and take that chance?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question! Beth Karas...
CALLER: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... wow, what a great question.
KARAS: Yes. Her bail is so high, Jane, that she`s never been able to make it. But if she were to make it, there were conditions that she had to fall in. She was going to be on home confinement with an ankle bracelet, a GPS device, something like that, but she was never able to. A couple million dollars, I think. I don`t know the family was going to be...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the men aspect?
KARAS: ... able to make that. You know what? There are a lot of men on the jury, and maybe that`s what the defense wanted. We don`t know what the final jury makeup will be. Eleven men, seven women. Six will get bounced just before deliberations.
But there`s no question that she`s very seductive, and men respond to her. And you only need one man to hang them up and maybe get a lesser charge for her or even a retrial, a do-over.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. Remember, people, 90 percent of communication is nonverbal.
In just minutes, we`re going to talk to a close friend of Travis Alexander`s. He spent time with Jodi, an hour and a half, on the very night of Travis`s memorial. What he has to say about what this woman was talking and thinking will blow your mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I was not at Travis`s house. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When Jodi changed her story the second time and told police, "Oh, you know, I was there, but I didn`t do it. Two ninjas burst into the house and killed Travis." Then she describes how they killed him. Was she actually describing what she did to Travis and kind of -- you know, they say every liar puts in the truth.
Listen to her lies and see if you can recognize maybe what she did to Travis and is pretending that it`s the ninjas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I ran. And he stopped me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stopped you?
ARIAS: And Travis, he was -- he was still conscious and still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just left him there?
ARIAS: No, I ran into the closet, because there`s two doors and there was a hallway. And he stopped me and he didn`t touch me. He just held the gun to my head, and he was like, "You don`t go anywhere." And he told the other girl, "Finish it."
He was still, like, able to move. He was all -- I guess he was all conscious up here sort of. He wasn`t, like on his leg or on his knees or on his feet. He wasn`t walking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist, you watch this. She`s talking about the ninja -- but he didn`t die right away. And he`s kind of like wobbling around. He can`t really walk. Is she talking about what she did to him?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s very possible that she is weaving elements of what she did. We can`t say for sure. But it is pretty obvious that this woman will apparently say just about anything if she thinks it`s going to be expedient.
And some of the things that are the most psychopathic looking to me about Jodi Arias is the complete and utter absence of shame and guilt, unflappability when she`s caught in things and caught in lies.
If someone is primarily narcissistic, they are very vulnerable to shame. This is not the case in this situation. She can be caught red- handed with something and is completely cool as a cucumber and unflappable and generates another story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, not even unflappable. Look at this stretch. Of all the images in this trial, this stretching during the interrogation to me says everything.
People, I don`t want to be -- too much information, but people often pee on themselves during interrogations. They shake. They cry. They throw up. They`re nauseous. They`re terrified. And this woman is doing yoga stretches. That -- I mean, of all the things. I just want to get your analysis, Cheryl, on this yoga stretch.
ARUTT: She`s performing. She is -- she may even be thinking, "Oh, that went pretty well. I was -- I was -- really gave it to them there," but the stretching and the -- it`s like for round two.
This is what I mean by the unflappability. When people do pee on themselves and throw up and all of that, that`s because their conscience is going, "Oh, my God. They`re going to know it`s me. I`m in trouble."
And this is, "Oh, I`m just -- I`m preparing for the next round." I mean, it really is as if they weren`t talking about her at all. There is a total disconnect between her conscience and what she`s doing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And at one time, the detective says, you know, you want to see? We`ve got photos of you, we -- do you want to see them? "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I`d love to see those."
She`s very interested in seeing herself.
More on the other side and your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I have an alibi. I`m not guilty. I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You could hear Jodi`s continued obsession with Travis and his entire family. She has the nerve to ask Detective Flores, who`s grilling her, begging her to come clean -- "Oh, I want to send a letter to Travis`s family." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I`d still like to say something to his family. I don`t think I have anything that could bring them (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Maybe I could write them a letter. Would they receive it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
ARIAS: I don`t mean would they accept it. I mean, if I made it to them, would they get it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She wants to contact Travis`s family, and she`s the one who killed their loved one.
Selin Darkalstanian, senior producer for our show, they are in courtroom, the family of Travis Alexander is there. I can just imagine their heads rolling eyes back in their heads as they heard that.
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: They were stone cold, staring at her as that part was shown in court. I don`t think they knew that that was coming up. I don`t think they`ve ever heard that, because you have to remember, it`s their first time hearing these interrogation tapes and hearing Jodi make up these lies and make up these excuses, and say that I want to reach out to the family, and I`m just thinking about how his brothers and sisters would be feeling.
And here we are in court. His brother, his two sisters, his aunt, they`re all sitting in the front row, staring right at her, and the jury can see them. So it`s unbelievable that she mentions the family even in the interrogation tapes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I really feel it`s part of her obsession. These stalkers, well, if you can`t stalk the person because, well, you killed that person, then let`s start sending letters and stalking the family. Even from behind bars. It`s unbelievable.
Let`s go to the phone lines. Pam, Ohio. Your question or thought. Pam, Ohio.
CALLER: Yes, I`d like to know is it possible that she has a split personality? And also, what happened to the bloody pants that they keep showing in the video of her with the blue and the white stripe?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect." You heard both of those questions?
HOGAN: Well, as for the pants, she has admitted that she has a striped pant like that. And they have not been able to find it. She said she had two pairs of pants like that, and they have not been able to find that.
And then, what`s the first question again?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Split personality. Could she have a split personality? You`re not a doctor, but you`ve studied her.
HOGAN: She has -- no, she has not been diagnosed with any sort of mental disorders. I`ve heard more of a narcissistic personality, a histrionic personality disorder. She hasn`t really been the type that switches on from one to the other.
But I found her to be almost like a mirror personality, where she mirrors the person that she spends the most time with. She definitely has something going on, but it hasn`t been diagnosed as anything with multiple personalities.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely. I said -- actually, it was Dr. Robi Ludwig who said borderline personality disorder, and I agree.
Basically those are people who they see somebody who has stuff that they want, and they want that person and they want their stuff and they want their lives. And they insert themselves in their lives.
And they`re very good at it. And they can be very persuasive and very seductive. And then, once they get themselves in there, you can`t get them out. And if you try to get them out, they turn into your enemy. That`s why it`s important for us to take a good hard look at this case because there are other examples in our lives that are not this extreme, that luckily don`t end in death, but these dynamics are at play in our daily lives.
We`re just getting started. We have more on the other side, specifically somebody who spent hours talking to Jodi and even driving her to the police station. You don`t want to miss our next guest. He drove Jodi Arias to her first interrogation with cops.
And then at 8, Nancy Grace talks to a close friend of Travis Alexander who knew Jodi. Nancy at the top hour.
And stay tuned, we`ve got more right on the other side, an exclusive guest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I was not at Travis`s house. If I`m found guilty -- I have an alibi. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me. My cat scratches me. These are all her work. She is a feral cat.
If I was going to ever kill somebody, I would use gloves. I have plenty of them.
The 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill. (inaudible) Maybe there`s something that`s wrong with me psychologically. I think of the butterfly effect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, oh, my God, more sex and lies on video at the Jodi Arias murder trial. She is forced to watch more of her interrogation tape where she lies through her teeth. Police confront her with indisputable evidence, including blood and DNA, along with naked photos taken right before Jodi`s ex-boyfriend Travis Alexander is killed by her.
Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: This is absolutely some of the best evidence I`ve ever had in a case. And I`ve convicted a few people on less than this.
ARIAS: Well, so I`m as good as done?
FLORES: That`s not for me to say. But eventually those photos will come out.
Jodi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, she cries and cries and cries, but she does not ever admit the truth, as hard as Detective Flores, who does an incredible job, tries to get her to come clean. Jean Casarez, correspondent, "In Session", you`ve been at the courthouse monitoring this case. We heard some bombshell evidence from the rental car guy about what she did with her rental car.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. This is someone that was in Reading, California. In opening statements, we heard she drove two hours to this rental car agency, had never been there before. He testified that she said it was going to be a local drive. She wasn`t driving too many miles at all. We now know that`s a lie. She had pre- planned this trip, at least to go to Salt Lake City, Utah.
And then she said that she didn`t want a bright car. He wanted to give her a red car. She said no, I don`t want a bright car. I want a softer colored car. And he said that when she brought the car back, number one, all the floor mats were gone from the car, and number two, there was a stain in the front passenger seat and in the back center seat. He thought it was Kool-Aid maybe, but he cleaned it all up and then re-rented the car.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. We showed you a map. She didn`t actually drive from Los Angeles to New York, but that`s the distance she drove. In other words, the crazy road trip that she went on where she killed Travis Alexander and then left Arizona, went up to Utah to canoodle with his work colleague, she drove the equivalent of driving from California to New York -- this is unbelievable -- 2,834 miles. The rent-a- car guy was like I thought you were going to stay in town, is what you told me.
All right. Today we saw and heard Detective Flores try his darnedest to get Jodi Arias to admit she killed Travis Alexander. But what he got was tears and lies and backstretches but basically more lies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLORES: I gave you an opportunity. This was the only opportunity. Ok. And you just gave me the information that you were there. But I knew you were there. Then you throw some story in that`s not plausible. It just doesn`t make any sense with the evidence that was there at the house. That evidence tells a story. And nowhere in that evidence does that story that you told me match. It doesn`t match. Is that how you want to leave it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you`re looking at her in July of 2008 after she`s already wearing jailhouse orange. She`s been arrested. But I want to bring in my very special guest, Aaron Dewey, Travis Alexander`s former roommate who spent a lot of time with Jodi and Travis. And even a month before that tape you just saw, in June of 2008, drove Jodi to Phoenix, so police could fingerprint her -- Detective Flores, the same guy who was grilling her.
Thank you for joining us, Aaron. We are astounded at the marathon of lies we are hearing. It`s extraordinary to me -- so you`re driving her to get fingerprinted, and she`s sitting right next to you. Is she a cool cucumber, doing backstretches like she was doing during the interrogation? What was her behavior?
AARON DEWEY, FORMER ROOMMATE OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Her behavior was completely normal. There was no signs of emotions from her. There was no conversation that was too far out of the ordinary, considering that here I am driving her to the police station to be investigated, or interrogated for a case where she`s the prime suspect. It was as if nothing out of the ordinary was going on for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you actually spent time with her at Travis`s memorial. A lot of people are shocked that she even showed up given the fact that she now admits yes, I sliced him and I killed him in a horrific fashion, claiming self-defense. But you`re there and she ends up talking to you, and wants to have a whole big heart to heart with you.
And you`re a nice guy, you oblige, and you listen to her. At this point, nobody knew that she was going to be arrested or anything. And what was her concern? And the night of Travis`s memorial, what was she most interested in?
DEWEY: She had told me -- admitted that she and Travis had a sexual relationship, and as we know, they kept that pretty quiet from everybody. And she was concerned that that was going to be discovered somehow through the course of the investigation. And she was concerned that she would be excommunicated from the church when they found out that she had been having premarital sex. This was all about her.
And so she actually asked me to arrange a meeting with Travis`s bishop so that she could go and confess her sins. Not the sin of taking somebody`s life, but the sin of taking somebody`s virginity. It`s ridiculous.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, just when you think you`ve heard everything in this case you hear something like this. This is the night of Travis`s memorial. She secretly knows she`s the one who did it. Nobody else knows that at this point, although people may have had their suspicions. And she`s not concerned about well -- she`s concerned about getting excommunicated from the Mormon Church?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She is totally disconnected from what she has done. She is in another body and another space. That`s my take on it. She is now facing the investigators. She wants a bishop. I don`t care what she says she wants him for. Maybe she did want to confess, Jane. I don`t know.
But I think that nobody -- nobody does a self-defense move, stab somebody 27 or 29 times. It`s self-defense, you stab somebody once, or even twice, or a gunshot once.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok.
WEINTRAUB: Do you know how long that took? This woman is not in her right mind or she was on drugs or crazy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s interesting. I don`t know if a drug test was ever done on her because the drugs could have passed by the time that they were talking to her, a long time after.
WEINTRAUB: Months later.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nishay, you heard Jayne Weintraub say no way this is self-defense.
NISHAY SANAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I disagree. I think that the defense is putting on their self-defense. I think it will continue when they start to put their case on. It goes back to just because there`s 27 stab wounds and a gunshot doesn`t mean it`s self-defense.
Self-defense, she stopped the perpetrator then we don`t know what happened in her mind. In her mind, she could have felt like she was still being attacked. The evidence has already shown before that he didn`t go down that fast. So I don`t think you can just look at the number of stab wounds, the gunshot or the slice to the throat. I think you have to look at the big picture.
I think the prosecution is concerned that evidence is going to start coming out to show that this was self-defense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. We`re going to continue this debate on the other side and take your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: The evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder.
MARIE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: He had dated someone earlier that year. She had slashed her tires. She had followed us on the first date that we went on. She had broken into his e-mail accounts, his bank accounts. She would sneak into his house through the doggie door.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am a sugar addict. I cannot eat regular sugar because I eat too much of it so I`m always trying to come up with these healthy alternatives.
This is what I do with a blender, you can do it too. I take dates, right? Then I put in some strawberries. Then I put in a banana. Then I put in some shredded coconut. Then I put in some soy milk. Or you can also do coconut milk, whatever. And I add some Stevia which is natural, 50 times sweeter than sugar and has no calories and does not affect your glycemic index. And I put it all in the blender. Look at that. It`s fabulous -- totally healthy, totally wonderful and delicious sweet but it`s not bad for you.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`ve got to say that this is one of the most extraordinary days in an extraordinary case, and this is -- I think captures it all. Look at her doing her stretches when she`s being interrogated. How do you react like that? What`s going through her mind? Yoga?
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FLORES: We used a chemical to enhance this. That right there is blood. A mixture of yours and his and that`s your palm print of your left palm.
ARIAS: I don`t have any cuts on my left palm.
FLORES: You left palm print at the scene in blood. What`s going on there?
ARIAS: Well, I can explain the blood and the hair. I don`t know about my left palm print. Can you take a hair sample?
FLORES: We have your DNA.
ARIAS: No, no, no. But I mean -- you know how they can do drug tests and find out when things were done? Can`t you measure the time?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s extraordinary is how she navigates this interrogation as she`s confronted with hard evidence that she was there. And she just massages it.
And Aaron Dewey, our wonderful guest tonight, Travis Alexander`s former roommate who was a gentleman, and therefore was courteous to Jodi in the wake of his dear friend`s death, not knowing at the time that she was responsible. You have said that she kept her whole life a secret. In other words, when you were hanging out with Jodi and Travis, she would never talk about herself. She would never talk about her past. Tell us about that.
DEWEY: The only thing that I ever knew about Jodi`s past was I had heard Jodi and Travis talk very briefly about the boyfriend that we know she had for four years before she met Travis and broke up with shortly after they met. Other than that, nobody knew anything about her childhood, about her family. She didn`t talk about her parents or her grandparents that she went home to live with after she left Arizona. Her entire past was a complete secret to everybody.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Cheryl Arutt, forensic psychologist, why do you think she did that?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that she would have revealed too much of herself if she had disclosed too much about her life. And this unflappability that we keep coming back to, this sort of interrogation -- yoga pose during the interrogation, this being confronted with things that are hard facts about the evidence that was left, and wanting to find out oh, can you time stamp that. She`s still looking for an avenue or a way to make the story morph.
I think one of the difficulties that we have when we deal with people who are pathological liars is that most people expect that in the social contract that other people are going to behave the way they would behave. So if they couldn`t imagine looking someone in the eye and making something up completely, or doing something that is outside of their code, it`s very easy to want to believe someone else who says oh no, I didn`t do that.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s the thing about pathological liars. First of all, they use huge chunks of the truth. And they take all the truth that they can and they put in some big lies. So when you try to catch them, you say no, look at that truth. Look at that truth, look at that truth even though they`ve got these two chunks of lies or three chunks of lies. So they`re very clever.
And one of the reasons they`re able to do that is the truth is a dead issue to them. The truth means nothing. It has no value, no meaning. And the truth for them is anything, anything that comes into their mind that works for them. The truth is whatever works for them.
That`s why I say you can learn a lot about life watching this case. Because we`ve all dealt with pathological liars in our lives and they are very tricky and they are very dangerous. They`re slippery. You can`t catch them. They always have an answer. You know what I`m talking about. We`ve all dealt with them.
Quickly, Susan, Illinois -- your question or thought. Susan.
SUSAN, ILLINOIS (via telephone): Hi, Jane. First of all, I just want to say that Travis does not look at all like he is having fun in these photos. And could this be a last-ditch effort on her part to keep him, or did he just finally say he was done and wanted to end it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I find that to be a very good question. And we will answer it with our experts on the other side.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Items that were deleted, were there some that involved Mr. Alexander in the shower?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were there also some nudes that appeared people were involved in some sort of sexual activity?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi Alexander claimed that she -- Jodi Arias, my apologies -- claimed that she and Travis were going through this book, "1,000 Places to See before You Die". On the other side of the break, we`re going to talk about the significance to the case.
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JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man. She knocked the blessings out of him by putting a bullet in his head.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot has been made of Cancun and the fact that Travis Alexander was set to leave for Cancun on a vacation he`d won not with Jodi. He did not want to take Jodi. He wanted to take another woman.
Shanna Hogan, journalist and author of "Picture Perfect" What`s the significance of -- and we`re looking at video of gorgeous Cancun -- the Cancun trip?
SHANNA HOGAN, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR, "PICTURE PERFECT": This is a really interesting dynamic of the whole relationship. So Travis gets hold of this book, "1,000 Places to See before You Die". And he and Jodi start checking off these places one by one. They go to Sedona, the Grand Canyon. They go to Niagara Falls and they take all these really elaborate weekend trips to cross off these places.
One of those places on that list of "1,000 Places to See before You Die" is Cancun, the Mayan ruins. And Travis had planned to go on an LDS tour of those Mayan ruins when he was in Cancun. Only this time he was not taking Jodi on one of their weekend trips. He was going to take another woman. So that might have to play into her motive for doing this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Watch as Jodi changes her story from "I wasn`t there, I didn`t kill Travis" to, "Yes, I was there but two ninjas did it."
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FLORES: Were they going after Travis? For what reason? You tell me this but you give me no reason.
ARIAS: They didn`t discuss much. They just argued.
FLORES: About what?
ARIAS: About whether or not to kill me.
FLORES: For what reason?
ARIAS: Because I`m a witness.
FLORES: A witness of what?
ARIAS: Of him, of Travis.
FLORES: Of Travis` murder?
ARIAS: Yes, but I didn`t really witness it or see much.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course that`s all nonsense. Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, why is it so important for this detective to get a confession?
WEINTRAUB: That`s what all detectives do, Jane. They will do anything to get a confession. That`s part of the problem, also. The witness interrogation goes -- it`s almost as if she`s not -- he`s not playing good guy/bad guy. He`s just trying to play good guy and go along with it and he`s making it up as he goes which is ok under the law. He`s desperate to get her to confess. All cops are desperate for a confession.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what I wonder is where is the lawyer? There`s usually at a certain point a lawyer intervenes and says you can`t talk -- my client is not going to talk anymore. And that`s something we can discuss on the other side is that this is a little bit unusual.
I think Detective Flores did an excellent job trying to get the truth out of her but good luck with this person. More on the other side.
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ARIAS: I would be shaking in my boots right now if I had to answer to God for such a heinous crime. But I`m very grateful that this is something I will never have to answer to when I stand or sit -- when I`m before the judgment seat some day.
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FLORES: The camera actually took a couple of photos by accident during the time he was being killed.
ARIAS: Really?
FLORES: Yes, Jodi, really. You were there. Quit playing this game. It`s time for you to just come out and tell me.
ARIAS: I did not -- I did not hurt Travis.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, you did by your own admission. Let`s go out to the phone lines, Marcia, Illinois. Your question or thought, Marcia? Hey, Marcia?
MARCIA, ILLINOIS: Hello, Jane. Thank you for taking my call. Hello?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead, Marcia. Go ahead, my dear.
MARCIA: Thank you for taking my call.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You know what it is -- you have your TV on so it`s hard for us to hear you because there`s a delay. But, you know, a little birdie told me you were going to ask about the stretching, one of my favorite pieces of video on this.
Jordan Rose, attorney, you`ve been very patient. We have watched this interrogation go on and on. You heard Jayne Weintraub suggest that perhaps Detective Flores didn`t do quite as good a job as we`ve all been giving him credit for because he didn`t get the confession. Should they have played good cop/bad cop and have one come in and get real mean and the other real nice?
JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: I think Detective Flores took control of the situation and looks like a leader in this -- in all of these instances. He`s not having any of it. She is an egomaniac and it`s creepy, almost haunting how her posture changes, her demeanor changes. She gets this little bitty girlie voice when she talks to him in certain topics and it`s almost as if she is trying -- she is stretching, she is trying to flirt, flirt with the detective. That`s kind of her MO. She`s watched one too many Lifetime movies and that`s just not how it works.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re right.
ROSE: It shows her as a sexual aggressor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re right. I thought it was kooky behavior but now that you mentioned it, I think it is part of her using sex to try to get her way. It didn`t work in that case. The detective was not buying it.
Nancy is up next.
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