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Jodi Arias Caught in Escape Attempt?
Aired January 22, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet on a work trip in Vegas and fall hard, but when the flame burns out and they break up, she moves 300 miles to chase him, even converting to Mormonism.
But then 30-year-old Travis Alexander found slumped over dead in the shower of his five-bedroom home, shot, stabbed 29 times. And just hours after she stabs him to death, she`s literally humping on top of a new boyfriend while Travis`s body decomposing in a damp shower stall.
Twenty-seven-year-old Arias has wild sex with Travis all day, even photographing the sex. But then just minutes after the sex, slashes his throat ear to ear.
Bombshell tonight. Just revealed, Arias busted, set to run, go on the lam just before cops slap on the cuffs. We learn Arias`s grandparents` house under secret police surveillance, cops watching Arias pack and load boxes to flee. Packed, two knives and a secret .9-millimeter gun, hidden so well only found when her rental car was finally serviced.
And another Mormon man falls under Arias`s spell, vowing to leave his wife and children. Oh, and Arias`s so-called artwork brings in the big bucks on eBay. You know what? That`s not right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t trust each other.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My job is to speak for Travis right now. And everything Travis is telling me is that, Jodi did this to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One day he showed up and was telling us that he had broken up with Jodi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travis didn`t want their relationship to be public. And the next day, he got in his car and noticed that all four tires were slashed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way anybody else...
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: He never raped me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How is she going to get you? Does she have a weapon?
ARIAS: She had a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said she had a gun before.
ARIAS: I don`t know if she had a gun.
OK, let`s say for a second that I did and I say I did it. I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) jealous rage?
ARIAS: I wouldn`t -- I wouldn`t even say I was jealous. I mean, there may have been some jealousy there, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then what caused this?
ARIAS: I think it`s -- maybe Travis was jealous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Tonight we can reveal Arias busted, set to run, go on the lam just before cops slap on the handcuffs.
Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session. Jean, you`re the one that broke the story. What happened?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION" (via telephone): Nancy, we`re learning some absolutely amazing things from a police incident report that we have just gotten hold of. On July 14th, when Mesa police detectives went to Yreka to arrest Jodi Arias, they found her at her grandparents` house.
They visually surveilled her from outside, and they could see inside that she was packing boxes and packing suitcases. They believed she was going to flee. They stayed there watching her. In time (ph) of that night, of July 14th, a car pulled up. She came outside to talk to a female person in the driver`s seat. They believe that was her mother. It was a lengthy conversation. It ended with Jodi going back into her grandparents` house, her mother driving off.
The next day, they found a brand-new shiny rental car outside of the grandparents` house. They subsequently arrested Jodi, executed a search warrant, and found in that rental car boxes of books of Jodi Arias`s. Intermingled amongst the books were two knives. In her suitcase was a box of .9-millimeter bullets, no gun.
Less than a month later, her mother was inquiring where the gun was that Jodi had hidden in the rental car. They traced the rental car at that point to San Francisco, California, and they found hidden in that car a .9- millimeter gun.
GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, this is blockbuster, bombshell evidence, and I am just wondering why the prosecution didn`t put it to the jury in their case in chief. To me, this is clear evidence of flight, and you don`t run unless you think somebody`s chasing you. Jean...
CASAREZ: That`s right. They did not...
GRACE: ... when a police car pulls up beside you on the interstate, do you hit the gas and take off at 90 miles an hour? No, you do not, Jean Casarez, because they`re not chasing you. But she was set to leave. In fact, she`s on secret police surveillance.
Unleash the lawyers, Ken Padowitz, Miami, Holly Hughes, Darryl Cohen, Atlanta. What about it, Ken Padowitz?
KEN PADOWITZ, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, I think you`re absolutely correct. This is a very strong circumstantial case, and with all the evidence that they have, surely, the prosecution should put forth in front of that jury right off the bat the fact that she was attempting to leave the jurisdiction, the fact that she was attempting to flee. And I think they`ve made a major misstep, the prosecution, by not bringing this evidence up right in the beginning.
GRACE: Padowitz, I agree completely. As a matter of fact, Ken, when I was still prosecuting for 10 straight years, my theory was give the jury everything you`ve got up front. Don`t hide anything. Give it all to them because you never know if you`re going to get a chance on rebuttal.
And also, Holly Hughes, once they start reaching a decision in their own mind, it`s hard to change that decision with rebuttal evidence.
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It absolutely is. And again, it looks like they`re grasping at straws, like, Oh, no, the defense put up such great stuff, we`re scared. So now let`s go back and mention stuff we didn`t in the first place.
But let me point this out, Nancy. She wasn`t on the run because she wasn`t in custody. You`re using the word "escape," but until she is in custody, she is perfectly free...
HUGHES: ... to move about the country just like you and I.
HUGHES: Until she`s arrested, she has every right to pack up some books and drive herself anywhere she wants to go.
GRACE: Darryl Cohen, when somebody robs a bank and guns down three or four people and they take off and they cross state lines driving 90 miles an hour, wouldn`t you, in the vernacular sense, describe that as on the run?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I feel like I`ve been set up, but of course, that`s on the run. But she waited 10 days. She wasn`t fleeing. She had her books. She didn`t have her clothing. She was waiting. She had a rental car. She was leaving. That`s not the same.
GRACE: I`m so glad she remembered to pack her knives and her .9- millimeter, along with her books. Good point!
COHEN: Spontaneous combustion.
GRACE: ... remember to change her hair color, get a rental car, turn the tag upside-down, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what? You can say whatever you want, but Padowitz, you know the deal.
Jean, for those people just joining us -- everybody, Jean Casarez breaking the story tonight on our show that Jodi Arias busted trying to escape.
Jean, when they looked through what she had, they found two knives hidden amongst all those books. And you`re telling me the .9-millimeter weapon was not -- it was hidden so well that it was only discovered when the rental car, a Chevy Cobalt, was serviced about a month later?
CASAREZ: In San Francisco, California, that`s right. And the jury at this point has not heard this information. But Nancy, the defense is self- defense. So there`s going to be a rebuttal case from the prosecution.
CASAREZ: And if the jury learns this in a rebuttal case, that will be blockbuster.
GRACE: You know, that`s always a tough decision, whether you want to give it to the jury on a silver platter in your case in chief or hold back for rebuttal. Now, the problem -- everybody, Jean, Beth both with us tonight, both of them lawyers, as well as correspondents. They know the ins and outs of the courtroom.
You know, Jean, a lot of jurisdictions only let you put up rebuttal evidence that directly controverts something that was put up by the defense. So you`ve got to wait and see what the defense is going to do before the judge can rule whether this will ever come before the jury.
And it`s just not right that all of us know all of these details that the jury will never know. I`m just curious, Jean, when she bought that .9- millimeter. Why was she taking it with her? What was she planning to do on the run?
Another thing, Jean Casarez. Did cops, as they were secretly watching the grandparents` home -- did they see her having a conversation with her mother out in the car?
CASAREZ: Yes, they did, a woman they believed was her mother. Another thing from these police incident reports, they later executed a search warrant on her mother`s home, her parents` home. They found a box of .25- millimeter bullets in that home.
GRACE: Man, was that brought into the jury in the state`s case in chief?
CASAREZ: Not that I know of, no.
GRACE: I`m just very surprised and concerned all of this has not gone in front of the jury. But again, maybe the state`s holding it back for rebuttal.
Here`s another twist on that, Jean Casarez. Can the mother be called to testify as to what her daughter told her in that car? Would she tell the truth, or would she lie to save her daughter`s skin, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Well, an interesting point is, it was the mother that was inquiring, and the reports do not say who she was inquiring to, but she was asking about the gun her daughter had hidden in the car. So Jodi`s mother knows information.
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, breaking tonight, we learn Jodi Arias busted trying to escape just before cops slap on the handcuffs, her grandparents` home under secret surveillance by police as they watch her pack and load boxes.
Jean Casarez, give it to me one more time with the timeline.
CASAREZ: This is July 14th, the day before she`s arrested. Mesa police arrived in Yreka, California. They are able to locate Jodi inside her grandparents` home. Visually, they can stand outside, surveil her and see that she is packing boxes.
They were concerned she was going to flee, so they stayed outside the home. The next day, a rental car was loaded with boxes and at least one suitcase of Jodi Arias. They arrest Jodi. They immediately execute search warrants at the grandparents` home, the parents` home, and that car.
Inside the car, in her boxes were many books, and amongst the books, two knives. In her suitcase, a .9-millimeter box of bullets.
And one more thing, Nancy. When they executed the search warrant in her bedroom of her grandparents` house, they found evidence that she had purchased a .9-millimeter gun.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Idaho. Hi, Sandy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was just calling -- I just don`t understand the justice system anymore. There is so much evidence that shows us obviously she`s guilty. There`s no other suspect. There`s all this surveillance. They have all this evidence they`ve found.
I don`t understand what the holdup is. She needs to be prosecuted because people like this, like in the O.J. Simpson case, so much evidence, and he got away with it. I mean, is this going to happen again? I don`t understand. I mean...
GRACE: Well, I`m very concerned, Sandy in Idaho. I`m very concerned. I don`t know if you heard the questions from the jury last week.
Out to you, Bonnie Druker. The questions from the jury very disturbing. In that jurisdiction, the jury is allowed to ask questions, as when I practiced law, they could ask questions. And the questions they were asking seemed to suggest that they believe his roommates could have been part of the murder, not Jodi Arias -- asking about their alibis, were they questioned? A lot of questions about the roommates.
Rita Cosby, is this going to play out just like tot mom and O.J. Simpson?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: You know what? Sadly, it could. And as you point out, the questions from the jury are, Where were the roommates? Didn`t they hear anything? Didn`t they see anything?
And what`s so bizarre, Nancy, in this case, as we know, she had said from the opening statements from her defense -- and we`re going to hear a lot more in a week -- her defense attorney said she did it, but it was self- defense. But for some reason, the jury is having a hard time believing this small woman, this pretty woman, could have done this horrendous crime. It`s shocking, Nancy!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was around April that you last saw him, right?
ARIAS: Early April.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You haven`t been back in town since then?
ARIAS: No, I haven`t at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you have physically been here since you left.
ARIAS: Since I moved, no, I haven`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi now admits that was a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On that horrible day, Jodi believed that Travis was going to kill her. He threatened to kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it because of self-defense? There`s no way in hell it was. And not one person that knows Travis has come out and said, yes, he was that person.
GRACE: She is claiming that he was verbally abusive. The first time we hear of any physical abuse claim by her is the incident where she slashes him, a smiley faced slash from ear to ear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you here in town or were you...
ARIAS: I was in Yreka, California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 12 hours after Travis was murdered, she was up here in Utah and out to eat with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Bombshell. We can now reveal what we had suspected. We have evidence that Jodi Arias busted trying to escape just before cops slap on the handcuffs. She is under secret police surveillance as she loads and packs box after box to flee the jurisdiction, to go on the lam. The jury not privy to this information. What did she pack? Bullets, knives, books and a secret .9-millimeter weapon.
We are taking your calls. Out to Dana in Mississippi. Hi, Dana. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I watch you every night.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. In one of the interrogation videos, it shows Jodi stating that if she would have killed Travis, she would have done it humanely. And I was curious what she knew at that moment when she was being interrogated. Did she know how he had been murdered?
GRACE: I know, I believe, Dana in Mississippi, that she had seen some of the death photos, where he was slashed from ear to ear. And once you see that, you don`t forget it. It`s like -- you know when you see a dead body if there`s been a gunshot or a stabbing. You don`t need a medical examiner to spell it out to you.
Let`s go to the source, Beth Karas, at the time she says -- I`m going to pull this up -- Liz, please find the spot in the interrogation tapes where she`s caught on tape saying, If I had done it, I wouldn`t have stabbed him this way. I would have shot him. Well, hello? She was shot. That`s the part you have to look for, Liz.
Beth, at the time she said that, didn`t she know or did she know? Had she -- of course, she knew because she did it. But had she been told that he was stabbed?
BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Right. She was still denying it at that point. Yes, she knew he had been stabbed and she knew there was a lot of blood because word was spreading among their circle of friends, starting with the roommate who found him. And then some of Travis`s friends were outside, so word was spreading about what the scene was like. So she knew there was a lot of blood and he had been stabbed.
And when she said, If I had it in me to kill him, I would have done it humanely and quickly, it`s almost as though she`s conceding it wasn`t humane and that it was cruel. And cruelty is the aggravator the state is seeking to prove that would get her death, if the jury agrees.
GRACE: Well put, Beth Karas. Let`s take a listen to Arias saying exactly that, caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: If I had planned to hurt him in any way, I -- you know, I`m not the brightest person, but I don`t think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him continuously until he was dead, if that were my intention.
And again, I bring up the gloves again, that I would have to wear gloves because -- I mean, I`m not too worried about prints. I guess they`re all over anyway. But I would never stab him. If -- if -- if I had it in me anywhere to kill him, the least I could have done was to make it as humane as possible, or quick or something, you know? Not that killing is humane, so to speak. I don`t mean it that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know what you mean.
ARIAS: He was still alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He was very well liked and loved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact, Travis was one of the nicest and kindest men I`ve ever met.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travis left Jodi no other option (INAUDIBLE) Travis`s continual abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just days after killing him, Arias allegedly posts the following message on his obituary page, with sentiments in stark contrast to those claims.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I am so grateful for the endless hours of conversation and the amazing experiences we`ve shared."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said bad things about him, really, I mean, besides that when she said the trust issue. Besides that, everything was - - he was a great guy, he inspired her, he was great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re using the whole violence thing because that`s - - what else can she say? She`s already changed her story two or three times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I love you, my friend, and always will."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, remember, all of these postings she made after she stabbed him to death in the shower.
We are taking your calls. Out to you, Matt Zarrell. Why is phone sex taking center stage in the courtroom?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, the defense plans to present a recorded phone call between Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias just a couple weeks before the murder. In it, they claim that Travis Alexander, who portrays himself to be a good Mormon person, has very verbally, sexually explicit phone sex with Jodi Arias, including suggesting that he is going to tie Arias to a tree and perform anal sex on her.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Ken Padowitz, Miami, Holly Hughes, Atlanta. Also joining me, veteran defense attorney Darryl Cohen from Atlanta.
All right. Where are the lawyers? Darryl Cohen, let me just start with you, friend. They`re claiming self-defense, but here she is 300 miles away from Travis Alexander, and she`s calling him for phone sex. Nobody`s forcing her to do anything.
And I don`t know if you`ve seen the photos, the digi-cam photos of the sex marathon they had before the stabbing death. Nobody`s forcing her to do anything. There`s no evidence of physical abuse. So how are they going to get to the battered women`s syndrome at the defense?
COHEN: I think it`s very easy, Nancy. We`ve got a battered women`s syndrome. Emotional battering is what obviously took place. She drove 1,000 miles to see her ex-boyfriend. They had sex, which means she thought they were having a current affair. And then he drops the bomb, I`m going to Cancun with another girl. What do you think she would do? She snapped.
GRACE: That`s not battering! That`s jealousy! That`s plain old jealousy!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we woke up, we were kissing. And she eventually kind of grabbed me and she got on top of me.
ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE) confidential for now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was one of the things that kind of made me stop, you know, when things were kind of getting a little heated, her expressing her religious beliefs and almost trying to bring me closer to God.
ARIAS: I`ve done many things that are shameful. But this is not one of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. A bombshell. Not only did we learn Jodi Arias planning to escape, set to flee just before she is brought in on murder, cops have her grandparents` home under secret surveillance as she loads and packs boxes, but we also learn yet another Mormon man smitten by Jodi Arias, set to leave his wife and children to be with Arias.
What did we learn, Matt Zarrell? Another Mormon man said to be her victim?
ZARRELL: Well, we spoke to a friend of both Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias who says there was this one guy after spending several hours with Arias at a convention said that when he gets home he`s going to divorce his wife to be with Arias.
The guy was also a father of children. He was a devout Mormon. Said when he got home he was going to talk to his bishop. He also allegedly said, quote, "Jodi is what I need. She is gorgeous. She laughed at my jokes. She gets me. We connect." And the man was completely serious.
GRACE: OK. I don`t know what mesmerizing effect Arias has on men.
Joining me right now, two special guests, Jamie Simko, friend of Travis Alexander, the murder victim in this case, and Jodi Arias on trial for his murder. Also with me, Christopher Bigelow, co-author of "Mormonism for Dummies."
We`re going to get to the bottom of all of this.
First out to you, Jamie Simko, thank you for being with us.
JAMIE SIMKO, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER AND JODI ARIAS: Thanks for having me.
GRACE: How did you meet Jodi Arias, and what was your first impression of her?
SIMKO: Well, I was also at that convention with Travis, and, yes, I just met him -- Travis and Jodi were hanging out in the food court at the MGM Grand and, yes, I just -- the first thing I saw her, I was just like, man, this girl is gorgeous. And, oh, looks like Travis is going for it, so, you know, good for him.
GRACE: Could you tell me about the time that Travis, Jodi Arias, and others were hanging out in a Jacuzzi? What happened?
SIMKO: Yes. We were hanging out after a business event, just kind of casually kicking back and --
GRACE: You know, I`m very jealous, Jamie Simko, because when I go out of town for work, I never get to boil in a Jacuzzi. It kind of sounds a little fun, you know, minus all the deadly STD germs floating around in it, but it does sound kind of fun. But back to you in the Jacuzzi. Let me just get that mental picture back in my head. Go ahead. Tell me about Arias in the Jacuzzi. I want to hear this.
SIMKO: Yes, so me, and a friend named Chris Hughes and Travis, and a few other people were hanging out in the Jacuzzi. And this was in Marietta, California, and Jodi had come driving in from the desert area that she`d been living in at the time. And it had only been a few months that I think her and Travis were talking or dating at this point.
Anyway, she comes rolling in and she pretty much just out of nowhere jumps in the Jacuzzi, she`s got her bathing suit ready and immediately sitting on Travis` lap and they`re just kind of hanging out, you know, being cute. And, yes, there was this kind of conversation that we all had and it was in reference to some other woman that Travis was talking to.
And Travis and Chris were talking about her, and then Travis kind of looks over towards Jodi and he`s like, yes, but, you know what, she ain`t no Jodi. You know, so many words that he said. And, you know, he was, you know, letting Jodi know that she was extremely gorgeous, but, you know, from a relation ship standpoint, this was very early so it was before he knew that Jodi wasn`t the one for him but that was the type of seed that he had planted in her mind that maybe she was the one.
GRACE: Well, maybe that time he thought she was the one. Maybe that was before she slashed his tires twice, hacked into his e-mail account and his bank account. Just thinking out loud.
Tell me about the Facebook chat you had with Alexander just -- not long before he was murdered.
SIMKO: Yes, I think it was just a few weeks, maybe a month before he was murdered and he had sent me a link through Facebook chat, and he said, hey, you know, check out my new blog post. I`m getting this -- my new blog going. And I read it and it was just an awesome story that he talked about his childhood. And anybody can read those now.
Anyway, and then through the conversations I was like, hey, how is it going with you and Jodi? Because under my impression I thought they were still together. And the words he said to me was, oh, it`s good, but it`s just a struggle. And my interpretation of that was, coming from him, I knew he was a devout Mormon.
And when he said it`s just a struggle, I mean, putting the two and two together, I knew they`d been spending personal time together a lot, traveling all over the place, and immediately went in my mind he is having sex with her and he feels guilty about it. And I feel you, bro. But I didn`t say anything. I just said, you know, I understand.
GRACE: Wow. That`s interesting that he said that not long before his death.
Question. What can you tell me about another Mormon gentleman that meets Arias and falls hopelessly for her and immediately decides he`s going to leave his wife and children to be with Jodi Arias? What happened?
SIMKO: Well, before I say this story, I`m going to state something. I`m going to set something apart here.
SIMKO: A lot of the men you`ve been interviewing on your show are also Mormons, and a lot of them are married. And, you know, a lot of them, they`re saying it but they`re not really saying it how they`d like to say it or how it really should be said. They`re saying, you know, she`s -- she was attractive or she was a cute girl.
Let`s get something straight. When I first laid eyes on her, I said, wow, this girl is smoking hot. And then, once I got to know her a little bit, I`m like, not only is she smoking hot, she`s one of the nicest people I ever met in my entire life. OK?
GRACE: I take it you are not Mormon?
SIMKO: I`m not Mormon.
GRACE: All right. That`s -- I`m just putting the pieces together. OK. Now that we have established Jodi Arias is, quote, "smoking hot," I disagree because when I see her, I see blood running down her wrists, OK? That kind of detracts from any physical attractiveness one may perceive, the whole blood, the whole murder thing.
Now, thank you for establishing on the record, Mr. Simko, that she`s smoking hot. Can we get to --
SIMKO: When I first met her, that was my first impression. I`m with you eye to eye hindsight.
GRACE: And, you know, a lot of people, and I know you didn`t -- you don`t feel this way, but a lot of people have said when they first met her they got a creepy vibe, but you know, she was all about Wicca and witchcraft on her Web site, but that`s all a whole another can of worms. I`m going to steer us back on to the road about this man I thought happily married that meets Jodi Arias and he walks away and says, I`m leaving my wife for her, after being with her for, like, two hours. What happened?
SIMKO: Yes, he had spent some personal time with her. And --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, what`s personal time? What`s that? Is it --
SIMKO: You know I don`t --
GRACE: Personal time in the Holiday Inn or is it personal time having a latte in the food court? What do you mean by personal time?
SIMKO: It was -- I don`t want to say too much about the story for this man`s sake because I believe he`s still married, but it was in a car for a few hours, so --
GRACE: What is a married man doing in a car with a single woman for a couple of hours? Unless they`re out doing a surveillance with police.
GRACE: All right. Right there I have a problem. But so after two hours with her, what does this guy say?
SIMKO: Well, he texts, you know, other friend in the business, Chris Hughes aside, and right out, you know, goes into a private room with him and he says, Chris, when I get home from this trip, I`m going to divorce my wife. I want to be with Jodi.
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. And now a look inside, behind the facade Jodi Arias has painted, not only do we learn that she was busted trying to escape, trying to pack and leave just before cops arrest her on murder one, her grandparents` home under secret surveillance by police, and catch her loading boxes full of books, knives, even later a gun, a newly purchased .9 millimeter.
I want to go to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, joining me out of Madison Heights.
What do the injuries say to you, Doctor Morrone?
DR. WILLIAM R. MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST (via telephone): I can`t see anything other than this is a very dark alpha dominant, evil woman. This is not smoking hot.
Four major points, tremendous amount of medium velocity blood splatter at the scene. Number two, chest wounds making all this splatter in the beginning, the first wound. Number three, the neck wound, ear to ear, cutting the windpipe, can only be done after he`s weakened or unconscious because he could fight back, and the absolute frosting on the cake, a gunshot wound to the head. It did not bleed and the shell casing found on top of concealed blood, that confirms the order of the fatal event.
GRACE: But now we learn yet another Mormon gentleman after being with Arias alone for just two hours decides to leave his wife. And, I might add, children.
Let me go back to a friend of Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias. Also joining us co-author of "Mormonism for Dummies," Christopher Bigelow. Also taking your calls.
Jamie Simko, you`ve just established that you believe Jodi Arias is, quote, "smoking hot," but what I`m more --
GRACE: More interested in is the relationship as it evolved with Travis Alexander and also this guy. Why did yet another man marry and, you know - - Jamie Simko, are you married, may I ask?
SIMKO: No, I`m happily single.
GRACE: Yes, well, I was, too, at one time for many, many years until I became a happily married mother of two and, let me tell you, since you didn`t ask, once you have children, it`s a game changer, dear. Everything changes. In fact, I don`t want to even think about another man. I don`t even want to think about it. I don`t want to think about anything at all that would jeopardize my twins` lives.
I don`t care what it is. It could be anything, it could be a beer before I drive. It could be -- I don`t know what it could be. No. If it would jeopardize their life or their happiness in any way, then I`m not interested.
And what I`m extremely interested in is whatever, let me just say, magic that she seems to work over men that within just knowing her for two hours, sitting in a car, for Pete`s sake, unless they were sitting in the backseat, he wants to leave his wife and children.
You know, after, you know, you`re married, you have arguments, you disagree, blah, blah, blah, none of it amounts to a hill of beans. But I can see you getting fed up with your spouse just over daily living. Don`t even have to really do anything wrong but ready to leave and walk out on your children to be with Arias? What was he thinking?
SIMKO: You know, and that`s the thing. I can speak from experience of being in her presence. When I was around her and, I mean, I was smitten. I mean I liked her personally. I was like, OK, she`s really hot, she`s nice, and we just really connected conversationally. And one of the things that this gentleman said was --
GRACE: In other words she asked you a lot of questions about you.
SIMKO: About -- sort of, I guess. I don`t know. We just -- we just hit it off, I don`t know. But what I wanted to say about this guy was that, you know, one of the things you referenced is that, you know, she laughs at my jokes, she gets me, this is what I`m missing. And what our friend Chris had said to him when he took him aside was, like, listen, dude, this is a marriage, you know. Tell me if you get with Jodi a few years down the road that you`re not going to be feeling the same exact way as you feel with your wife right now?
GRACE: Yes, you know, I think it`s like cars, you just trade them in and after three years you`re ready for a new one. I mean, you feel that way some days, but then why would you risk everything, everything?
You know, Caryn Stark, please tell me there`s more to men than that. This is of course not about murder. But all you have to do is laugh at their jokes and look good? That`s it?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it depends on the man, Nancy, but it`s very, very powerful aphrodisiac when somebody comes across. Don`t forget. This is somebody who`s a sociopath, right? She can do anything as a chameleon to manipulate the situation. She`s capable of even saying, you know, if I did it, kind of like if O.J. had written that book. Clearly psychopathic.
GRACE: Yes. But there`s something about her that is mesmerizing to men. And the reason I`m interested is because I wonder how it`s going to affect this jury, 11 men, seven women.
Beth Karas joining us on the case from the get-go.
Beth, another fact that`s happening is that Mormonism is coming into the trial. It`s beginning to be a star of the trial itself. The fact that he was with Jodi but he was looking for the perfect Mormon wife. How is Mormonism, which is a mystery to a lot of us -- that`s why I`m about to go to Christopher Bigelow, but Beth, why is Mormonism becoming such a key factor in the trial?
KARAS: Well, the defense started grilling the very first witness called by the state, Mimi Hall, Marie Hall. She was the one who was supposed to go to Cancun with Travis Alexander. They were scheduled to leave the day after the body was found, June 10th, 2008.
They were questioning her about it because I believe they`re going to try to show that Travis Alexander was conflicted, and that maybe he was into -- yes, he was self-hating and that he couldn`t resist the temptation of being with Jodi and he took it out on her by being abusive to her. So it`s important to understand the tenets of Mormonism and how you`re not supposed to engage in premarital sex and he really was on the road to redemption at the time he was killed, I`m told.
GRACE: With me, Christopher Bigelow, co-author of "Mormonism for Dummies."
Mr. Bigelow, thank you so much for being with us. Now why would Travis Alexander have been so torn up that he was having sex with Arias while dating other women? All of them, I might add, were in the Mormon Church with him.
CHRISTOPHER BIGELOW, CO-AUTHOR, "MORMONISM FOR DUMMIES": Yes, that`s a real mess. And I`m sure he was under tremendous pressure living a probably double or triple life with it. And if he wanted to get himself right with Mormonism, he would have had to confess and begin the repentance process. Premarital sexual activity would need to be confessed to his local bishop if he wanted to get himself right with Mormonism again.
GRACE: Welcome back. The trail hot and heavy on Jodi Arias for the stabbing and slashing death of her lover, Travis Alexander. Mormonism playing a major role in the trial, and with me an expert on it, co-author of "Mormonism for Dummies," Christopher Bigelow.
Christopher Bigelow, there has been some talk that Travis Alexander convinced Jodi Arias that oral and anal sex is not a sin in Mormonism, but vaginal sex before marriage is a sin. Is that true?
BIGELOW: That sounds like a real rationalization to me. I think most Mormons would count all of those as serious enough sins you need to clear it with a bishop.
GRACE: She was baptized in the Mormon faith, so wouldn`t she know the truth of the Mormon beliefs?
BIGELOW: You would think she would. Some people internalize it better than others. You have to wonder what her thoughts were about all of this irrational behavior.
GRACE: Where do Mormons believe are going to -- is going to happen to them in the after life? Where do they think they go?
BIGELOW: Mormonism has a really interesting concept of heaven. We believe it`s actually split into at least three different levels, so everyone doesn`t just go to heaven or hell, but it`s almost more of a graded system. The highest kingdom, we call it, of heaven is for those who are baptized Mormon and live the gospel and live a good life.
Then the middle kingdom is for those that are a little iffy, and then the lowest kingdom is for those who sin and don`t repent of that. And that`s the whole point of the Mormon Church, is helping people identify their sins and repent their sins.
GRACE: Right. So they don`t believe that heaven equals having your own planet?
BIGELOW: Well, you`re getting into some pretty deep doctrine there, and there are those who teach that our goal in life is to become more like Heavenly Father. As his children, we want to become like our parent. And if God --
GRACE: Do you have your own planet, I guess is my question?
BIGELOW: Well, you know, I`m going to go ahead and say that that`s within the possibility, realm of possibility. It`s not -- not something we love to hear stated because it sounds wacky.
GRACE: Yes, a little.
BIGELOW: But you know, to become --
If you become like God --
GRACE: You get your own planet.
BIGELOW: He gives you more and more responsibility, and maybe that includes a planet.
GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Specialist Wade Slack, 21, Waterville, Maine. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service medal. Parents Alan and Mary. Stepmother Rose, four brothers, four sisters.
Wade Slack, American hero.
Out to Bonnie Drucker on our team.
Bonnie, what can you tell me about artwork of Jodi Arias` popping up on eBay?
BONNIE DRUKER, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Oh, Nancy, this one takes the cake. Her artwork that is on cardboard in colored pencils is popping up on eBay. People are actually buying some of it. She has a couple of different collections, Nancy. One of them is a `50s collection with Lucille Ball and Grace Kelly and Frank Sinatra. And, you know, that`s what she`s selling. We understand that the money is so she could use -- so she could use the money to get better food in jail and to help --
GRACE: Hold on, just a moment. Hold on.
Andy Kahan, victim advocate, city of Houston, coined the term murderabilia.
Andy, people are going to pay a thousand bucks for her sketches on cardboard so she can get better food behind bars?
ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S CRIME VICTIMS` OFFICE, MONITORING MURDERABILIA SALES (via telephone): Well, I don`t know what she`s going to do, what are you going to buy, better junk food? It`s not like outside vendors are going to be parked outside waiting for her to pick up healthier foods. But I`d tell you the looming legal issue right now, the reality is that she hasn`t been convicted of anything, so anybody can sell her artwork, her paintings, her drawings or whatever they want to do.
But people who collect macabre artwork from high-profile killers are looking at her artwork right now as an investment. They`re banking on her being convicted and the theory being that she won`t be allowed to produce any so-called artwork. Arias basically, when you look at it, the old adage pops up. When you go to jail, you turn into Rembrandt and you get -- get reborn, and that`s what Jodi Arias is doing right now.
GRACE: Everyone, "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.