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Nancy Grace
Phone Sex Tape in Jodi Arias Murder Trial
Aired January 31, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Mesa, Arizona. They meet on a work trip in Vegas and fall hard. But when the flame burns out, they break up. But it`s then she moved 300 miles to chase him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man.
But then 30-year-old Travis Alexander is found slumped over dead in the shower of his home, shot, stabbed 29 times. And just hours after she admittedly stabs him to death, she`s literally hopping on top of a brand- new boyfriend. Twenty-seven-year-old Arias has wild sex with Travis all day, even photographing the sex, but just minutes after sex, slashes his throat from ear to ear.
We are live here at the Phoenix courthouse, day three of the Jodi Arias defense.
After murder victim Travis Alexander`s much younger girlfriend torpedoes the defense by swearing Travis never abused her, or even had sex with her, bombshell tonight. A phone sex tape scandal rocks the Jodi Arias murder one trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have any reason to believe Mr. Alexander was not living up to the principles of your church?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: Through my faith and through the knowledge of my own innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... know that the defendant was having oral sex with Mr. Alexander at the time that -- of her baptism?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not know that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would agree that that wouldn`t be a sincere, if you will, baptism under your definition, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree that they would not be ready to be baptized.
ARIAS: ... for the 10 Commandments, Thou shalt not kill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no evidence to show anybody else did that. None.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first time I heard that he had beat her, I thought, Are you kidding me? That`s -- that`s not possible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see Travis hit Jodi or be in any way abusive to her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever hear Travis call Jodi names?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi had to make a choice. She would either live or she would die.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With 29 stab wounds?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she confide to you at that time that she killed Travis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you that she killed Travis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. We are live here at the Phoenix courthouse, day three of the Arias defense.
Today, center stage, a phone sex tape scandal rocks the Jodi Arias murder one trial. The judge clears the courtroom, sending everybody out, reporters, court watchers, personnel, you name it, so she could listen to audiotape evidence.
Now, we heard in the defense opening statement that they were intending to bring on audiotapes of phone sex between Arias and the deceased, Travis Alexander. What does it prove? Obviously, the defense thinks it`s something very, very important. Many would argue that it disproves the battered women defense, that she stabbed him because she thought he was going to harm her.
To Jean Casarez, the star of courtroom, legal correspondent, "In Session," who`s also been in the courtroom all day long. Jean, it seems to me -- isn`t it correct that when these phone sex tapes were made, Arias was living either 300 or 1,000 miles away from Travis Alexander?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": That`s right. She had moved back to Yreka. They were broken up. And I think one of the things about this tape is that if the jury hears it, the jury will hear the voice of Travis Alexander in that courtroom.
But he`s going to be saying things that I don`t think the prosecution or the family believes should be in that courtroom at all, talking about that he is going to Mexico, talking about with another woman, talking about that they have no future together.
But then it gets very sexual and he begins to have phone sex with Jodi on the phone, saying he wants to tie her up and she has sexual screams, and he says it`s like a 12-year-old girl.
GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. Is this where he says he wants to tie her to a tree and have sex with her?
CASAREZ: Yes, as the conversation keeps going, yes. So she saved this on her phone...
GRACE: OK.
CASAREZ: ... Nancy.
GRACE: So she was the one recording it?
CASAREZ: As far as I know, that`s right. And so the big question is, you know, how will it come into the trial if she doesn`t take the stand?
GRACE: Well, another issue is, Jean, yes, it paints Travis Alexander as a guy who`s using a woman for phone sex. I don`t think that`s a crime. I`m not thrilled with it. But what about the damage it does to her...
CASAREZ: And he also seems to be...
GRACE: When he says that, what does she do? When he says all that...
CASAREZ: Well, she agrees with it.
GRACE: ... does she hang up the phone on him?
CASAREZ: She plays along.
(CROSSTALK)
CASAREZ: He`s also seemingly very honest in the beginning of the phone call. They`re trying to show him to be a sexual deviant.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. Well, the thing is, Jean...
CASAREZ: And you know, Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... going to hurt Travis Alexander -- I think the defense thinks this is going to hurt Travis Alexander, but doesn`t it hurt her, too, because she`s taking part in it and surreptitiously recording it?
CASAREZ: That`s right, and she`s an able participant. It is a consensual situation. And he furthermore starts off the conversation by saying, We don`t have a future together. We`re going to get married to different people. I`m going to Mexico, and you`re not coming. So she knows where he stands.
GRACE: So he`s not lying about it. With me outside the courthouse, just coming out of the courtroom, Jean Casarez.
We`re all camped right here outside the Phoenix courtroom. And yet another blockbuster day in the Jodi Arias murder one trial. It`s another day of the defense -- it seems to me that every time they put somebody up on the stand, it seems to backfire.
Out to you, Jean. Who was on the stand today? What happened before the sex tape scandal?
CASAREZ: Daniel -- Daniel Freeman. Now, this is an important witness because he knew Jodi. He knew Travis. They went on some day trips together. So that is somebody that could be a rich witness, right?
Well, he never -- he said that he saw them get in arguments. He saw that she didn`t join in with -- when he had associations with other people. So she was sort of a dirty little secret, you could say.
But then the jury had questions. Did you see him abuse her? Did you see that he hit her? Did you see any threats that he made to her. And his answer across the board was no.
GRACE: So what`s the worst thing he had to say about Travis Alexander, the murder victim, and the best thing he had to say about Jodi Arias, on trial?
CASAREZ: The worst thing that he had to say, I would say, that favored the defense was at a restaurant at dinner that Jodi and Travis are there as they`re coming back to Phoenix. And he`s flirting with the waitress, saying, you know, She might look like my girlfriend, but we`re not dating at all. And they had such a strong physical relationship. So that was humiliating to her.
And the defense is trying to show that is what was in her head. That`s where her state of mind was beginning to form. But that does not equal domestic violence.
GRACE: OK. So that`s the worst thing he has to say about Travis Alexander. And the best about her is that he humiliated her in front of a waitress?
CASAREZ: Yes. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And it seemed to me that the jury`s questions kind of nipped that in the bud.
We are taking your calls. Out to Mary in South Carolina. Hi, Mary. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I want to thank you for all you do, for your fairness...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and for presenting yourself as the type of mother that every woman should be.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I do have a question for you. I`m a little razzled (ph) at this. They`re trying the victim, it seems, instead of Jodi. Why are they not asking was Jodi abusive? We know that she cut his tires. Did she hit at him? Did she scream at him? Did she call him names? What was her demeanor in all this? They seem to have forgot she`s the one on trial.
GRACE: You know, Mary in South Carolina, I could not agree with you more. And when they brought up the battered women`s defense, that really struck me to the core because I worked many, many years representing on a battered women`s hotline, trying to help battered women. I would do that at night as a volunteer.
And to me, this does a huge disservice to all the women that really are battered out there, that really do need help, that really can`t find a way out of their situation, don`t know how to get out, don`t know that there is another life that they could be living. So it disturbs me what I see happening in the courtroom.
Let`s get an answer to that. Out to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. Alexis, what about it? What`s the evidence of her being aggressive?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: I think the evidence of her being aggressive is the fact that he was stabbed 29 times, he was shot in the face, and his throat was slit from ear to ear.
Regardless of what happened in the past, the prosecution has laid out a very clear case showing that she brutally murdered this guy, and I think that`s what they believe they need. They don`t need something from six months ago or a year ago. They need the day that she was there and that she murdered him and then covering it up, lying about it twice, and even laughing at his funeral. I think that`s what they`re going for here.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest, Janelle Salmon, former girlfriend of Travis Alexander. Janelle, thank you for being with us.
JANELLE SALMON, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FORMER GIRLFRIEND (via telephone): Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Janelle, you were with Travis Alexander for a period of time. How do you react to how they`re trying to portray him in court?
SALMON: Well, I think for anyone that knew Travis or had dated him or been a close friend, it`s just. It`s tragic to see the kind of person they`re painting him to be. I did not know him to be that kind of person at all.
GRACE: Tell me something, Janelle. Everyone, with me and taking your calls is Janelle Salmon, former girlfriend of Travis Alexander.
Tell me about your first date with Travis.
SALMON: Well, Travis took me out for my first date the day after I turned 16. He brought me flowers. We went out to a movie with some friends and went for ice cream afterward. It was a good time. It was a lot of fun.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe Jodi loved Travis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that she did love him but that she was trying to figure out where they stood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did Travis treat Jodi?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy to be with each other, like, very cuddly and very much a couple.
ARIAS: If I was ever going to try to kill somebody, I would use gloves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So if somebody was having oral sex at the time of their baptism, you would agree that that wouldn`t be a sincere baptism under your definition, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree that they would not be ready to be baptized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No caffeine, no beer, no premarital sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi had told me that she was saving herself for her husband.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are camped out in front of the Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the latest. Today another bombshell in the defense of Jodi Arias in her murder one trial. A phone sex tape scandal rocks the Arias trial.
To Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story, also covering every move in the courtroom. Matt, what else happened in court?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, some of the big bombshells from Daniel Freeman particularly were very interesting, Nancy. On cross- examination, he revealed the conversation he had with Jodi Arias when Freeman told Arias that Travis was found murdered.
What happened was is that Freeman calls her at 11:00 o`clock at night -- this is the night Travis`s body was found -- tells Arias that Travis was gone. Freeman says there was a moment of silence and Arias began to mumble, Oh, my goodness.
GRACE: What else did Freeman have to say, Matt?
ZARRELL: One of the things he also talked about was is that Freeman went on a number of trips with Arias and Travis Alexander. And on direct, they talked about some of the verbal tiffs that they got -- Travis and Arias got into. But on cross, it was revealed that a big reason that Freeman went along on these trips was Travis preferred not to be alone with Arias and wanted Freeman to go with him.
GRACE: Now, that`s very unusual. Let`s take a listen to the testimony of Daniel Freeman. This was just hours ago in the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You told her that Travis was gone or words to that effect, right?
DANIEL FREEMAN, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said there was a moment of silence, right?
FREEMAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then that she began to what, cry?
FREEMAN: To -- I don`t know if you would call it babble, but to mumble, Oh, my goodness. I mean, she sounded disbelieving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she confide to you at that time that she killed Travis?
FREEMAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she tell that you she killed Travis?
FREEMAN: No, she did not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were the arguments between Travis and Jodi any different than arguments between other couples you have observed?
FREEMAN: I didn`t think so. No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were these normal arguments between a couple with respect to the severity and way they fought from your personal experience?
FREEMAN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. I want to go out to Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." You know, I want to go back to something that Mary in South Carolina said. She said, Why is he being painted as the aggressor, when all the evidence shows she`s the aggressor?
And what do you make of this phone sex tape scandal that has rocked the courtroom today, apparently with Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias -- she`s 1,000 miles away. I believe she calls him. I`m trying to find that out. She does tape record the whole thing, which I think is weird. I think that`s even weirder than luring him into phone sex is taping the whole thing and playing it back to yourself.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, she was setting him up, wasn`t she. And she was using sex as a form of power to hook him in. Remember, he was about to go on a vacation with another woman, and she couldn`t stand it.
So what does she do? She rented a car. She got gas cans. She drove over 1,000 miles. She already had the weapon. She took the weapons with her.
I think in answer to Mary`s very intelligent question, we have to ask ourself, If Jodi Arias were a man who went to kill his girlfriend, would we be asking if the man was the victim of domestic violence? No.
We would not be asking that question. The defense would not have even brought forth that case. There would be no domestic violence experts on the witness stand. The fact is, women can abuse and men can be victims. And Alexander was the perfect victim because he opened the door to the perpetrator and let her in, and that`s what victims do.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see Travis hit Jodi or be in any way abusive to her?
FREEMAN: No, none whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever hear Travis call Jodi names?
FREEMAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see Travis physically harm Jodi?
FREEMAN: No.
ARIAS: I would never hurt Travis.
FREEMAN: We stopped in Sedona to eat that evening...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
FREEMAN: ... on our way back to Phoenix. We went to a small restaurant there that Travis had heard about that was good. And while there, he made a joking comment to the waitress about him and Jodi not dating, and in kind of a flirtatious manner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a flirtatious manner towards the waitress, right?
FREEMAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And do you -- was Jodi sitting at the table at the time?
FREEMAN: Yes. I couldn`t tell that she was upset, but she seemed to feel uncomfortable or unsure how to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was Daniel Freeman on the stand, and he was quite the witness. But I don`t know that he was quite the witness for the defense. And remember, we are in the defense phase of this trial. It has moved off the state. Now it`s on the defense. The state`s put up a pretty good case. What`s the defense going to do about it?
This in the shadow of a phone sex tape scandal that rocked the courtroom today. Let`s talk about what those phone sex tapes really show. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, John Manuelian, defense attorney, LA, Daniel Cevallos, defense attorney out of New York.
All right, Manuelian, give me your best shot.
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, why don`t we wait to see what the defense has? This could be a defense shocker. There could be something here that we just haven`t seen. Remember something. It`s the defense`s turn in the game, and we don`t know what`s going to happen. Remember what happened with Casey Anthony. All of us pundits thought there`s no way that she`s going to be found not guilty, and it happened. So let`s wait and see until all the evidence in, and then we`ll see what the closing is...
GRACE: Put him up, please!
MANUELIAN: ... and assess it at that point.
GRACE: So Manuelian, we`ve told you what`s on the sex tape. We already know what`s on the sex tape. And your answer is, Let`s wait and see?
All right, let me try you, Cevallos. What`s your thought?
DANIEL CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What`s my thought. You know, first of all, everyone`s always tripping over themselves to talk about how domestic violence can seethe under the surface and you may never see it, except today in this case. It`s impossible that there was any kind of domestic violence underlying this case. No one believes it`s even remotely possible based on these facts.
Yet the truth is, it can seethe under the surface and most people can`t see it. Now, ultimately, if Jodi Arias can`t muster up enough facts to show it, well, that`s a credibility issue. But I think we shouldn`t be so quick to say it`s impossible that there was any kind of violence or domestic abuse in this case.
GRACE: Yes, you know, Cevallos, you`re right. It`s always a possibility, and bringing on a parade of ex-girlfriends that he did not abuse doesn`t mean he didn`t abuse her. But what`s interesting to me is the defense itself says he never physically abused her, except that day just before she murders him, she thinks he`s going to kill her.
Jean Casarez, isn`t it true the defense says up until that day, he had never once laid a hand on her?
CASAREZ: Here`s what I heard in the opening statements. I heard the defense say he threatened to kill her. They didn`t say when. But the fact is, all these people that were so close to them have not testified that they saw ever a mark on her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi definitely knew how to manipulate men, how to use men and to get into their life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was he affectionate with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was she affectionate with him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would be all over him and hugging on him and have her arms around him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was obsessed with Travis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re saying that you were kind of obsessive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you obsessed with him? Those are the allegations they make.
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING TRAVIS ALEXANDER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you characterize him as flirtatious with other girls?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made a joke and comment about him and Jodi not dating and kind of a flirtatious manner.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Defense say this was self-defense.
ARIAS: I don`t see how anyone could overpower him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me it`s ridiculous that he would -- just the thought of him abusing somebody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was not a novice with a knife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are here outside the Phoenix courthouse and taking your calls.
What another blockbuster day in the courtroom today as the Jodi Arias defense kicks off, sputtering, yes, but kicked off nonetheless. Taking center stage a phone sex tape scandal we believe the audio that the judge was listening to after she kicked everybody out in the courtroom is audio tapes between Arias and Travis Alexander. Phone sex tapes that she surreptitiously recorded.
I`m very interested into as in who called who for that phone sex. And remember this was happening when Arias lived 1,000 miles away from Travis Alexander. Difficult to swallow the theory that he still controlled her 1,000 miles away.
I want to go out to a special guest, Zion Lovinger. close friend of Travis Alexander`s.
Zion, thank you for being with us.
ZION LOVINGER, CLOSE FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Hey, thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Zion, what do you make of this? What`s the point of bringing in a phone sex tape between Alexander and Jodi Arias? I mean, apparently she`s the one that called him and she`s the one that was taping the whole thing.
LOVINGER: You`re asking me what I think the defense`s intent on bringing that in is?
GRACE: Yes, I guess.
LOVINGER: Well, I think they`re just trying to put Travis on trial like you talked about before. They`re trying to make him into a sexual deviant and I don`t think that does it. But they`re going to do everything they can to discredit him and to make him look like a -- like a big jerk. They`re going do everything they can to make him look like a really slimy guy. And I guess somehow, that`s supposed to warrant stabbing him 27 times and slitting his throat.
GRACE: You know, Zion, when you state it that way, you capsulized so many thoughts I`ve got on the case into one bullet, so to speak. To drag Travis through the mud to, pull out everything they can possibly think would repulse a jury or a juror to make him look bad when really, it should be serving to make her look bad. She was the one apparently that called him. She was the one that was taping him. Secretly on this phone conversation. Now, why would she be doing that?
Tell me something, you spent a day with Jodi Arias in Mexico once. How did that come about, and what were your -- what are your reflections on that?
LOVINGER: And at the time I lived in Southern California and me and my buddies used to surf all the time.
GRACE: Yes.
LOVINGER: And we were hanging out and Jodi was at my sister`s house and me and my buddies were planning on going surfing down in La Joya the next day and she invited herself and so we didn`t want her to go. And back then, I was nice and a little nicer than I am now. So we got the idea that we would tell her, well, we`re going to go to Mexico and wake up at 4:00 a.m. and our idea was that if we could somehow make it a little more difficult that she wouldn`t want to come but our plan backfired and she ended up still inviting herself and we had to end up spending the whole day with her. I probably should have left her in Mexico, though.
GRACE: What was she like? What were your thoughts? How did she act?
LOVINGER: You know, I don`t recall the details. I mean, there was nothing memorable about it. She brought her camera. She always had her camera, she was taking pictures. You know, there was nothing particularly memorable about it. She didn`t cast any spells on us, how about that?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: OK. Question, you said that you did not want her to join you guys. Why?
LOVINGER: It was a guys` trip. You know, we really didn`t want her to come. And if it were to happen today, I`d say hey, we don`t want you to come. But like I said before, back then, I was a little more nice.
GRACE: You know, Travis` ex-girlfriend Lisa Andrews took the stand and said it made her feel dirty when Travis would talk about sex. Now keep in mind that she was 19 years old and a virgin at the time that he was mentioning sex. She also said he never pressured her to have sex. He never forced her to do anything sexual, in fact, in all the time they dated they never did have sex.
I mean, I guess he did talking about sex. I mean, I -- is there a man out there, a warm-blooded man with a heartbeat that doesn`t talk about sex? I mean, maybe I`m wrong, but maybe I`ve been in the courthouse too long, but I don`t find that to be deviant behavior for a man anyway.
LOVINGER: Yes.
GRACE: What`s your reaction to her testimony.
LOVINGER: I think the only thing that proved was that Travis was 30 and she was 19. That`s all it proved.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Well, I mean, you know if a woman came up to me over a cup of tea and started saying wow, let me tell you what happened last night, I would be a little surprised at that, because frankly, I don`t really hear my female colleagues talk that way, but I would not be surprised if a man did it. So that didn`t really knock me over with that evidence. I think you may be right about that.
Also, the defense was asking Dan Freeman about the Mormon Church and the role it plays in all this. What is your response, Zion?
LOVINGER: You know, it bothers me a bit because the media is really playing into this and for the media, obviously it`s about ratings and -- but for us it`s about a friend. And you know, some of the headlines I was looking at is they`re talking about how, you know, Jodi and Travis broke the Mormon law of sex and they`re trying to -- the Mormons didn`t make that up law. You know? That`s something that`s been in the bible for centuries and for thousands of years, and they would really, you know, like to create this scandal about it and really blow it out of proportion.
And yes, it`s obnoxious for the most part, and I really think it`s taken out of context. Again, I honestly, you know, what Dan testified about in the courtroom today, really doesn`t do much for her case at all and I don`t think it really doesn`t matter about what they were doing, and at least how they`re trying to blow it up in the media like they are.
GRACE: You know, I think in my own mind, the main significance of the Mormon aspect of this is that I`m on the outside looking in. I`m a Methodist. I`m not that familiar with the Mormon religion other than the few books I`ve read about it. Apparently virginity is extremely important, and that`s true with a lot of religions, not just Mormonism. But it seems to me that Arias was painting herself as being extremely religious, up until Travis Alexander met her, he would actually brag that he was proud he was still a virgin and holding strong to his Mormon beliefs.
Then he quit bragging about that after he met Arias. And I`m not saying that it`s like Adam and Eve that she tempted him, it`s all her fault, but what I`m saying is it seems that he suddenly began having a decline in his values and what he believed in and what he wanted to be when he met Arias. And then he decided to do something about it and break up. And he was killed for it. That`s the way I see it.
LOVINGER: Yes, if I could do my best to -- you know, to make something clear is that you know, sex -- I`m not a spokesman for the church but I can -- I can at least give an opinion, obviously. I`m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the -- you know, sex is viewed as something that`s very sacred and it`s to be preserved between a husband and wife. And you know, if the way you said it, obviously is virginity is important but if that were the case, then we wouldn`t have so many -- so many kids. But the point is is that sex is sacred. And, you know --
GRACE: Right.
LOVINGER: Was Travis` and Jodi`s relationship healthy? No. Was he using her for sex? Yes. But does that mean she should butcher him? No. And anyway, the point that I wanted to make is yes, you know, they would like to bring it in and blow it out of proportion and really make something out of it that it really isn`t.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would often tell me how she felt about, you know, her religious beliefs. The Book of Mormon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the first time you and she had sex, though, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were both aggressive, we were both enthusiastic, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justified by the way you act in the world that you have changed. They`re worthy to be baptized.
ARIAS: God knows I`m innocent. Travis knows I`m innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have picture of you. It`s obvious you guys are having sex. Even time stamped on the day he died.
ARIAS: Things I`ve done and said are called into account. This is not one of those things that will be -- that will be brought up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that she did it to defend herself.
GRACE: I`m just trying to figure out how it could be self-defense since they were taking sex photos and then within like 30 seconds she was stabbing him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Phoenix courthouse as the defense continues in the case of Jodi Arias on trial for murder one in the stabbing, the brutal stabbing death, 29 stabs to Travis Alexander, her lover.
We are taking your calls. Out to Becky, California, hi, Becky, what`s your question?
BECKY, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. Actually, you know, it`s more or less like a comment as to where is this going to hurt the defense.
GRACE: OK.
BECKY: And you know I honestly believe that this is going to hurt the defense because what it will show, not only premeditation, knives, guns, rented car, gas cans, now sex tapes, and men, I hope it`s honestly going to show how she took this young man down in the prime of his life. You know this is -- this was a young man in the prime of his life, and --
GRACE: I agree with you, Becky.
(CROSSTALK)
And my question is, how do you believe -- how do you believe sex tapes could hurt the defense?
BECKY: Well, because again, I do believe it will show toward the premeditation because a couple of weeks before and if it was her recording it against his knowledge, it`s all being set up. You know, it`s just what she -- it`s in her line of premeditation.
And again, it`s going to show just how this young man was just -- that there, a young man active, sexually active and how she seduced him. You know, it`s really just going to bring all that up. my honest --
GRACE: You know, I`m going to go out to Beth Karas, legal correspondent, "In Session." Joining us today. I want you to respond to Becky in California`s observation. I think she`s right.
BETH KARAS, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Yes, well, yes, indeed. Although you know the case isn`t over. We don`t know what else the defense is going to come up with to try to, I don`t know, diminish the strength of the state`s case, but right now, if the jury were to deliberate, I don`t think it looks too good for Jodi Arias.
GRACE: Also, Beth, toward the end of the day, Lonnie Dwarkin, what`s his significance?
KARAS: Well, he`s a computer forensic examiner and he`s talking about all sorts of investigations he did on a hard drive that came from the laptop of Travis Alexander. He first established that Travis Alexander or at least somebody using the profile name of Deanna Reid, that`s the name of an ex-girlfriend of Travis Alexander was on this computer in Alexander`s home on June 4th between 4:08 in the morning and 4:35.
Well, Jodi Arias said, she arrived at about 4:00 in the morning or so, so it would show that Travis was probably up waiting for her and that would corroborate her story. She said she was too tired to have sex. They went to sleep. They had sex a couple of times about 1:00 in the afternoon and then she killed him four hours.
But then he moved into the examination of photographs on a hard drive from a laptop we`re led to believe it`s Alexander`s and the defense attorney had a photo in her hand which we could see. And it was an erect penis, that`s all it was in the photo.
And she showed it to him and the prosecutor objected and did a voir dire, meaning he got to the question the foundation for getting this evidence in. The defense wanted to admit it and at prosecutor said, you don`t know who this photo belongs to, do you? You don`t know who`s it is? He said no, I don`t. And the judge had a sidebar conversation and then adjourned for the weekend. But it appears that this photo was on Travis Alexander`s computer.
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GRACE: Straight out to John Lucich, former criminal investigator, president at eForensics.
We just heard from Beth Karas photos taken off Travis Alexander`s computer, but logged in was a woman, a name of a woman, a handle of a woman, and we know Jodi Arias was there, and that up and awake at that time of night. So wouldn`t that tend to show that was on Arias` e-mail?
JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: Well, no matter whose e-mail it was on, the fact is she could have been in that computer. When a computer forensic expert does a forensic analysis, they have no idea who is logged in, just the user name that was used to log in. So it could definitely been her. You remember this is a woman who set up a webcam to take pictures. That picture of what that woman described before could be a still picture out of that webcam video that she had taken.
GRACE: With me, John Lucich of eForensics.
To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philadelphia tonight. Dr. Manion, you have heard all of this back and forth phone sex, the photos, sex, you name it. But what it all boils down to is, was it self-defense? What did the injuries to Travis Alexander`s body tell you, Dr. Manion?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ (via phone): Well, they tell me that he was a victim of someone that was close to him, that was personal to him, that this was an overkill. He had three fatal wounds, a stab wound to the heart, the superior vena cava, a side wound to his neck, hitting the right carotid and subclavian. And a gun shot to his head. So this person has been killed three times basically.
So we would -- the suspect would be someone that would be close to the person, a family member, a lover. And the only thing I was wondering, I don`t know if they have a forensic pathologist coming in for Jodi to testify. I haven`t seen that yet. That could possibly say, well, Jodi has some cut wounds on her hands and these could be defense wounds also.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Air Force Tech Sergeant Anthony Campbell, Jr., 35, Florence, Kentucky. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Air Force Commendation, parents, Anthony Sr. and Frances. Stepfather David. Brother, Nathan. Sister, Matia.
Anthony Campbell, Jr. American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you talk to him about you knew that sex was on his mind from the very beginning?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he always profess to be a virgin? After he died, you learned that he was not a virgin, right? At some point, were you shocked to learn that Travis actually was not a virgin?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, isn`t it true that the press actually approached one of the jurors?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Somebody approached a juror, that`s right. We don`t know who it was, but somebody in the media, and of course, you do not approach a juror as a trial is in progress.
The court has ordered security now for the jury, and here`s something else I heard. I heard the judge tell the jury, all right, you`ve got your card key access now for the room behind the courtroom, so they`re even being given a secret private room that they can only get in themselves with their key card access.
GRACE: Well, that`s smart of the judge.
To Alexis Tereszcuk, there was an emergency appeal all the way up to the appellate court by the defense. What did they want?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: They wanted the case to be dismissed. They wanted the trial to be thrown out. And you know what, it was denied once again. This is not happening, the trial is going forward.
GRACE: We are going to break. But on a happy note. A special good night from California and Atlanta friends Josh and Shea Zahn here to see the trial.
And happy birthday to Menlo friend, animal lover Linda. Friend of our show and me.
Happy birthday, dear Linda.
Hidden camera hit "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
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