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Jodi: Vixen or Victim?

Aired February 5, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, day two. Jodi Arias under oath. What happened the night she met Travis Alexander?

JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: He stopped right in front of me, and stuck his hand out and introduced himself.

PINSKY: And is she telling the truth?

I`m speaking exclusively to a woman who calls Jodi a friend. She says Jodi is not a murderer.

Also, my jury is back. Details from inside the courtroom.

And later, allegations of oral sex among students -- get this -- at a preschool. We are talking about 4 and 5-year-olds. We`re going to speak to one of the parents.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: And joining me, my co-host for the week, psychologist Wendy Walsh.

I also have criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh and former prosecutor Lonnie Coombs.

We have an exclusive interview with one of Jodi`s friends.

But, first, Jodi was on the stand again today, this time describing explicit -- and, by the way, this is a warning about the stuff we have to get into this conversation -- explicit details about her encounters with the victim, Travis Alexander.

Take a look.


ARIAS: This is embarrassing. He began to perform oral sex on me. He knew what he was doing, for sure, but it was just -- felt like too much too soon and I mean, I couldn`t exactly rewind at that point.

I was uncomfortable. I wanted to at least appear like I was enjoying it as much as he seemed to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened after he performed oral sex on you?

ARIAS: At that point, we had taken it that far, I was kind of glad he was done.


PINSKY: Joining me to discuss "In Session" correspondent, Beth Karas.

Beth, what is going on? Why are they -- they`re getting into such gruesome detail. Is that the right word?

WENDY WALSH, CO-HOST: No, graphic. Graphic details.

PINSKY: Graphic details, graphic, gruesome.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: It`s graphic. Not gruesome.

PINSKY: Well -- I beg to differ but --

WALSH: If you have an aversion to sex, it`s gruesome.

PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. But what is the intention here? What`s all this about?

KARAS: I think the defense wants to take her through every single detail of her relationship with Travis Alexander. She`s going to be on the stand until next week if that`s the case.

What you just played, with her first sexual encounter with him, a week after meeting him. She broke up with her boyfriend of four years, meets him at a friend`s house, his friend`s house, he goes into her bedroom and performs oral sex on her, we just heard that, and asked her to reciprocate. And she performs it on him.

And the next line of questioning, Dr. Drew, was did he ejaculate? Yes. Where? And I`m not going to say. But use your imagination.

And then they talk every day. Their next encounter is a month later, when he`s sort of passing through. He gives her the book of Mormon and then jumps in a her car in a park, and demands oral sex from her and she does it -- even though she thought it was a little too soon, she does. So, same thing happened there, although he didn`t perform it on her.

That`s all we`ve heard. Two encounters. She`s not a Mormon yet. She hasn`t begun her full blown relationship yet. There`s a lot of details to come.

PINSKY: And, Mark Eiglarsh, why -- what to you think the strategy was for all of the details of where he ejaculated and all of this business? The only thing I can think of -- and you tell me that my thinking isn`t all right here -- was to ask the question from her team so if the prosecutors were going to ask those sorts of crazy questions, it wouldn`t jar her or they would have already been asked?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. We don`t know the exact reason, but first and foremost, they want her to appear believable in front of this jury, and how convenient. The only person who could contradict the details is no longer here. It reminds me of the Zimmerman- Trayvon Martin case where now that, you know, Trayvon is not around, Zimmerman can say whatever he wants. I don`t know if either one of them is lying, but how convenient.

The other thing is ultimately, she is going to be in a penalty phase perhaps. And by doing this, you are humanizing her. You are getting know her, and the jurors are now see her up close and she`s at least intelligent. She`s articulate. Don`t know if she`s lying or not, but that would make it less likely for them to seek the ultimate sanction of death.

PINSKY: Lonnie, that is something that stands out. Her use of language is exceptional. She has a command -- and I wonder if she learned that through her salesmanship training that she`s got --

WALSH: I think she`s smart.

PINSKY: And she`s smart, clearly.

LONNIE COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think she`s very smart. I`ve been impressed by her vocabulary. I always like people who are articulate and he used a wide range of words to describe things. She is very good at that.

And I agree with Mark, it`s going a long way to humanize her. I mean, these jurors have to listen to her, and see her up close, and see her expressions, and her emotions and her experiences. And then, say at the end, we want her to be killed. That`s a very hard thing to get over.

However, I disagree with the part of this being able to build up her credibility. What I have been scratching my head over, when they got into the graphic details about the oral sex, is she is sitting there demure like a little flower that`s never been violated before, and yet we know she`s had relationships before, she just lived with a man for four years, which he described their sex life as, you know, energetic.

And then after she kills Travis, which we know she did, she goes off and has another sexual encounter where she is very assertive if not aggressive.


WALSH: Lonnie, you`re scratching your head, you`re scratching your heard, but I bet Dr. Drew knows the answer. Is it because they want to titillate the males on the jury?

COOMBS: Perhaps, but then it breaks down her credibility, when you have these two very different portrayals, that we know from other people, and she stands up and says, you know, pretends to be this virginal flower when we know that that`s not the case.

PINSKY: And, Lonnie, we had a guy her who dated her one night, and he was quite clear she was into it, shall we say. There`s no problem there.

And so, yes, this whole -- none of you -- put everyone up on the screen for me. I want someone raise your hand for me. Anybody tell me really why all those explicit questions. I don`t get it.

COOMBS: I know why.


COOMBS: Because they want to get to the one, two, three juror who`s are empathetic, who have gone through an experience.

WALSH: They only need one, right? They only need one.

PINSKY: Where did the fluids get emitted? I mean, that`s such a bizarre question.

COOMBS: But now they feel like she`s once more again being victimized. She`s sitting there on the stand and she`s having to answer questions. Whose fault is it?

PINSKY: Why doesn`t she let the prosecutors ask it then? The prosecutors will I`m sure will get into that kind of stuff.

Mark, go.

EIGLARSH: Drew, they are building. Wait, wait, wait. You don`t have to speculate. Little by little, these little details are part of the plan. This has been very orchestrated. I can tell from the questions that the defense has spent hours with her.

This is all building to something. You`ve got to -- you know, just wait. Obviously, they haven`t talked about the one subject matter that matters. What caused her to feel imminent death or great bodily harm that caused her then to act? All of this means nothing.

PINSKY: Beth, anything in court to help make sense of what we`ve been talking about?

KARAS: No. Actually, I expected to hear some sort of sexual abuse by a boyfriend or someone in her life, because when the doctor gets on the psychologist to talk about PTSD, I thought there would be a triggering event. I don`t know what that event is. She`s probably already testified. Maybe it`s a cumulative effect of --

WALSH: The childhood stuff, right, Dr. Drew?


PINSKY: The childhood stuff was the preamble. Of course, what was the triggering event? And I guess we`ll have to wait.

WALSH: We`re going to get there.

PINSKY: Thank you, Beth Karas.

Next up, Jodi`s friend. A friend of hers is going to speak exclusively to us here. Is Jodi a cold-blooded killer? She`s going to answer that question and several others. That is after the break.

And later, I have a situation in a school where there is a scandal involving preschoolers and, again, it is almost --

WALSH: You always do this with a mother here.

PINSKY: I`m sorry. The sexual behavior amongst preschoolers. We have a parent whose child went through this. Why this happens, what to look for, so it doesn`t happen to anybody else. We`re going to get right to it.



TAYLOR SEARLE, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Jodi was just the wrong thing at the wrong time for him, and just turned out to be a disease that he picked up. Jodie would be his booty call option, or he could go another direction and find girls to actually marry and settle down. That`s when she became the stalker, as we all say, that`s when this crazy behavior started.


PINSKY: That was Taylor Searle from last night`s show. He was a close friend of Travis Alexander. And we learned a bit about him.

Psychologist Wendy Walsh, she`s back with me. She was there when we talk to Taylor. It`s kind of interesting.

WALSH: Right. When I hear a lot of slut shaming. Am I allowed to say that on TV?

PINSKY: You can say slut shaming.

WALSH: I don`t think that`s OK to be constantly downing a girl for her sexual experience and not the guy.

PINSKY: Well, OK, it`s interesting you would say that. I`ve got a friend on the phone. Here name is Gayla -- a friend of Jodi`s. Her name is Gayla Lynch. She was a coworker of Jodi Arias`.

Now, I want to talk directly to Gayla. Gayla is on the phone.

Gayla, what is it like to hear your friend Jodi referred to as a disease, and a stalker, something he picked up? How did you react to that?

GAYLA LYNCH, FORMER CO-WORKER OF JODI ARIAS (via telephone): Well, it makes me angry when I hear of people speak of Jodi like they do. They don`t know the Jodi that I knew.

She loves people and believes the best in them. She`s not the kind of person that would want to hurt anyone. She trusted everyone.

PINSKY: Gayla, I`ve got to interrupt. I knew we have a thousand questions when you say things like that, because we know that she brutally killed a guy. She has admitted to that. She`s capable of it, she did it.

So, let me ask this: my understanding is you observed her once in a fight in the restaurant where you two worked. Take us through that.

LYNCH: OK. One night she was visiting me when I was working during my graveyard shift. She had been seeing one of our cooks off and on, and he was also dating one of our managers.

WALSH: Oh, dear.

LYNCH: And, of course -- yes. And the manager had found out about Jodi seeing the cook, and came into the restaurant and, of course, found Jodi there, she was there having coffee visiting with me, and the manager began to taunt Jodi in such a way as to get her to start a fight.

Jodi wouldn`t budge. She didn`t want to fight. She just kept very quiet, and not saying a word.

And when the manager, of course, realized if there was going to be a fight, she would have to start it herself, when she did. I basically watched Jodi get beat up by the manager. She didn`t throw a punch. She didn`t yell, scream, or anything at anyone.

PINSKY: Did she freeze like she was out of body?

WALSH: Did she try to protect herself?

PINSKY: Or she`s seem frozen solid, like frozen with terror?

LYNCH: She just -- basically, she tried to protect herself. One of the other managers there actually pulled the fight apart. And afterwards, she actually was very upset when it was all over with.

PINSKY: Gayla, we got to kind of more through this.

You also met Bobby Juarez, the guy that was the vampire, is that right?

LYNCH: Yes, I did.

PINSKY: That she was living with. Did you ever meet his family? What was he like? And she was dating the chef, the cook, at the same time she was living with Bobby, pretty crazy, right?

LYNCH: Yes, yes. I don`t think she was living with Bobby at that time. I worked there for three years. And it was -- in the beginning when I first started working there, I met Bobby, he would come in and have coffee or something to drink and stay maybe a half hour to an hour. He kept to himself a lot. He`s very quiet.

WALSH: Let me ask you this. If you were a friend of yours, you knew her intimately. Tell me, did you feel like you did really know her? I mean, did her emotions feel authentic? Did you feel you had a real connection with this person?

LYNCH: I believe her emotions were authentic. I do not believe she was hiding anything.

PINSKY: Let me take a phone call from Kimberly in New Mexico.

Kimberly, you got something for us?


PINSKY: Kimberly.

KIMBERLY: I have a question for Gayla. Have you ever seen Jodi show signs of stalking with other men?


KIMBERLY: She`s obviously some reputation of it. Have you ever met Travis and see his abusive nature? Don`t you think it a little ludicrous, immoral and completely absurd to kill someone over a camera that`s worth a couple of hundred dollars that she could have replaced?

LYNCH: I never met Travis. I did not -- and I haven`t spoken with Jodi since 2000. I tried to contact her a couple different times and she`d moved -- she`d moved. So it was really hard to keep track of her.

I never knew her to be anyone that was a stalker or even get angry with people. She just didn`t get angry. She was always very wholesome, very sweet, trusting.

WALSH: So, Dr. Drew, what does this tell you? Was there a lot of stuff boiling under the surface potentially?

PINSKY: Well, maybe. I mean, there`s a lot of craziness. She`s living with this guy, and this guy, and dating that guy, and then moving, and different jobs. I mean, a lot of chaos in her life.

WALSH: In this description, she seems so calm and in self-control. But we know she had a chaotic childhood. Do you think that there`s stuff starting to bubble up underneath?

PINSKY: For sure.

And, Mark, you had a question for Gayla.

EIGLARSH: Can we -- yes, can we reiterate something? She hadn`t had contact with her since 2000. So, for years, she had absolutely no idea what was going on with this girl, with her relationship with Travis. She wasn`t there before, during, or after.

She did stab this guy 29 times, slit him from ear to ear and did kill him with a gun.

WALSH: Right.

EIGLARSH: So, that being said, she can`t say anything of value to assist us understanding what the motivation was.

WALSH: People`s personalities don`t change in major ways in a decade.

PINSKY: We heard people talking about how she is spiritual and she`s into -- you know, she seemed very disconnected.

WALSH: She`s searching for boundaries.

PINSKY: Searching for an identity, searching for a boundary, and what might seem nice may also seem empty to her.


LYNCH: I`m sorry?

PINSKY: OK, I`m going to take a break. Here is what we`re going to do.


PINSKY: Was Jodi Arias defending herself when she killed Travis Alexander? We`re going to talk about that question when we come back.

And later, I`ll have my jurors back. They`re going to sound off -- here`s one of them right there -- sound off on what they witness in court today.

Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.


ARIAS: The simple answer is that he attacked me, and I defended myself.


PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, psychologist Wendy Walsh. And I`ve got Jodi`s friend, Gayla Lynch. She was -- you`re a waitress, Gayla, with Jodi as I understand.


PINSKY: And a couple of questions, I heard -- one of the producers told me that you were surprised that Jodi was not a virgin. Mind you, hang on, a woman that was dating a chef and living with another guy --

WALSH: How old was she at the time?

LYNCH: That was my initial impression of Jodi when I first met her. She was so wholesome, and, you know, she didn`t wear makeup and didn`t dress like a slut. She was just like the girl next door. She`s very intelligent.

PINSKY: And you say she might have been defending herself and Travis was really the, I don`t know, aggressor. Explain that to me? Why do you say that?

EIGLARSH: How could she say that?

PINSKY: I know.

LYNCH: And he was a motivational speaker, and I heard someone called last night when they called into your show that they actually brought this up. He was a motivational speaker, and what I know about them, they have ways of trying to get into their heads.

WALSH: So, you think Jodi was easily manipulated?

LYNCH: Yes, well, by him possibly.

PINSKY: OK. Gayla, hold on.

Mark, have at it.

EIGLARSH: I`m at a loss for words. She hasn`t seen this girl in years. This horrific act occurs and she`s speculating. And now, she`s trashing Travis.


EIGLARSH: I would ask you, Drew, what do you think is going on here? In other words, analyze what Gayla`s motivations are. Why would she do something like that, even though she would have to concede she has very little knowledge of Jodi`s state of mind during the actual time period --

WALSH: But she`s a good friend.

EIGLARSH: -- that is relevant --

PINSKY: What is that, Gayla?

EIGLARSH: -- years ago. What does she know about her actions?

PINSKY: Gayla?

LYNCH: Yes. Well, like I heard someone say earlier, people don`t change.

I`m telling you what I know of her when I --

COOMBS: I have a question for Gayla.

PINSKY: Lonnie, go ahead.

COOMBS: You describe her and her personality back in 2000. And yet, have you been able to see her on the stand? And talked about her emotions, how sweet she was. The way she is coming across the stand seems very robotic, somewhat maybe conniving, manipulative. Is that the same person you remember from 2000? Is that the same person that you remember?


WALSH: Oh, really. So she`s changed.

PINSKY: Grace in Michigan -- Grace.


PINSKY: Go ahead.

GRACE: I have a question for you -- for her friend. If she claims that she was abused by Travis, where is the evidence? Where are the bruises? Where are the police reports?

WALSH: Yes. Where are all the 911 calls?

GRACE: Where are the black eyes and all of that?

PINSKY: Now, Gayla, I think -- I think -- I think they`re going to build the case and I think what Gayla is sort of supporting, it was a psychological manipulation of some type and that she was being exploited, would that be right, Gayla.

LYNCH: Yes, that is correct. I think it was more mental than physical.

PINSKY: OK, Mark -- Mark, I love your question. People don`t change. Has she stabbed somebody else before? Yes, I mean --

EIGLARSH: What about her -- what about her vision? Was she always wearing glasses, or did that happen when the jury was sworn?

LYNCH: No, she didn`t wear glasses when I knew her.

PINSKY: Shocking.

EIGLARSH: Oh, shocking.

COOMBS: A lot of things have changed, obviously.

Dr. Drew, I have a question.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

COOMBS: Everybody talks about this abuse, that she was abused. I would like to know your opinion. We know some defense attorney -- some defense experts are going to get on the stand and base an opinion on what we`ve heard from Jodi and say that she has been abused. And so that somehow that abuse mitigates her actions in killing Travis.

Do you in your expert opinion, based on what we`ve heard from Jodi so far, do you believe that she has been abused? Either physically, sexually, emotionally?

WALSH: That`s a good question. We talked about that last night.

COOMBS: Yes, to a level that would somehow justify or mitigate the horrific way she killed Travis.

PINSKY: Two different questions and I`ll answer them both when we get back to the break.

I got more of your questions for Gayla about Jodi. Call us 855- DRDREW5.

We are back after this.



ARIAS: He expressed that he was horny and he came into my car and sat in the passenger seat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the point of him getting in your car at the park?

ARIAS: I didn`t know at first. I mean, my car was --




ARIAS: I did not know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What sort of activity, to your understanding, was he interested in?

ARIAS: Oral sex. He wanted to receive it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did oral sex take place in your car?

ARIAS: Yes. He refused to kiss me afterward, because he said it was gross.


PINSKY: I am back with my co-host, Wendy Walsh.

Now, go ahead, Wendy. You got to reframe this. Yes?

WALSH: Before the break, Lonnie had two really good questions for you, Dr. Drew. We want to know whether the -- do you perceive the childhood abuse she may have undergone was bad enough to make her commit a murder and this kind of heinous murder?

PINSKY: OK. Two areas here. One is based on -- one of the things, so distressing is her so disassociated and disconnected from her feelings. That comes from abuse. I think that`s a reasonable thing.

Not only that we see these horrible chaotic relationships, moving all over the place. And also, it sounds like abuse, very common. The kind of abuse she went through is actually very common. A lot of people are looking at her history going it`s not so bad.

For some people, it is bad. It does not lead to becoming a murderer, even when it`s severe, and I can`t make it be -- I can`t imagine a way it triggers the kind of violence unless she had some weird dissociative identity disorder of something. You know, we`ve all had patients that blackout or brownout in rages, but they`re using substances in my world.

WALSH: Here`s my favorite textbook term. She flipped. All right. She`s just like something happened.

PINSKY: Yes, but that flipping -- like Gayla said. Mark, go ahead. Mark.

EIGLARSH: But wait, wait. You said it`s because she`s disassociated with her feelings, but couldn`t that also be consistent with someone who`s completely making it up?

WALSH: Right. Right.

EIGLARSH: I`m not saying she is.


LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I also disagree that she flipped. You don`t flip when you plan ahead to get the gas cans and to bring the weapons and to make sure you don`t, you know, leave a paper trail, you know, along the way.


PINSKY: Well, you`re right. That`s right. And that`s why I keep thinking about may disassociative identity or something, but who cares? People with the I.D. don`t go kill other people. But Mark, we lost my train of thought (ph), what were you giving me grief about?


EIGLARSH: The only conclusion that you came up with was disassociation.

PINSKY: Oh, right. Lie. Here`s the deal.

EIGLARSH: That`s also consistent with somebody lying.

PINSKY: You guys, I work with addicts and alcoholics, so I`m lied to all the time. I`ve got a great B.S. meter, and I get that she is framing and shaping everything she`s saying, but I also get disconnect. A disconnect that is uncomfortable to watch.

WALSH: I agree with you. There`s a kind of vacancy inside her that I see.

COOMBS: But does every pathological liar come from abuse or can you just be a pathological liar?

PINSKY: Yes, you can. And you can also be a psychopath, which a case with no one is making about this girl, but that you`d expect to see some more difficult history in that. Christina in Pennsylvania.

CHRISTINA, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say, as somebody who has suffered every form of abuse from when I was six years old, this happens to millions of women all over the country.

PINSKY: Yes, it does. Yes, it does.

WALSH: One in three American women.

CHRISTINA: -- unfortunately. And oh, is it one in three? My God.


CHRISTINA: And I`m sorry, but I -- I never had a thought of going and slitting any of my ex-boyfriend`s throat.

PINSKY: OK. Christina, you are now the poster child to the point we were just trying to make. Gayla, how do you make sense of all this?

GAYLA LYNCH, JODI ARIAS FORMER CO-WORKER, FRIEND: You know, I still for the life of me trying to imagine Jodi getting that angry. I can`t say it`s not possible, because it is.

EIGLARSH: It happened, Gayla.

PINSKY: Yes, it happened.

LYNCH: And I just -- I, myself, never experienced Jodi as that kind of a person.

EIGLARSH: YOU know -- so, maybe you didn`t really know her. Maybe you didn`t really know her. Maybe she showed you one side.


PINSKY: It`s a reality. It`s a reality, Loni, as you say, and Mark, you, as well. And it`s one that creeps us all out because then we look at our neighbors, we look at -- and the fact is --

WALSH: How many sides of our personality does she have?

PINSKY: Well, not only that. How many times do we report on stories that people go, oh, he was the nicest kid in the world. I don`t understand what happened. Well, either A, something does happen like a major mental health issue or something was already happening. Nannette in California.

NANNETTE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Gayla, how long have you really known her that you stated that there`s no way that Jodi could haven`t killed anyone without good reason. So, like -- so what you`re saying is stabbing Travis 29 times, slitting his throat from ear to ear and then shooting him in the head, that`s OK, that`s self-defense, because to me, that`s not self-defense.

PINSKY: And by the way, Nanette, I really wanted to show my audience the wound to the neck because it`s so -- it speaks such volumes about the violence. It was incredible. But Gayla, go ahead and answer that question.

LYNCH: No, I`m not saying that what -- that it`s OK, because it was self-defense. I saw the pictures of the crime scene and I think it was horrible. I -- I -- to say that Jodi that I knew, I would have never imagined that she was capable of doing that. That`s what I say.

PINSKY: I get you Gayla. Terry in Pennsylvania -- Terry.

TERRY, PENNSYLVANIA: Hey, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to know, with her demeanor the way she is in court which shows no emotion, is she under some heavy duty psych medicine?

WALSH: That`s a great question.

PINSKY: It`s a great question. I don`t see -- I don`t get that flavor about it.

WALSH: Do they often do that? Take somebody when they`re testifying?


COOMBS: Remember -- look back at the tapes of when she was talking to the detectives, too. Did you see that same type of disassociative going on there?

PINSKY: You know what, I didn`t. She was very, very present and that, to me, that`s one of the more damning parts of this whole story. She was so -- like Casey Anthony, she was so deliberate with her lies and so present.

WALSH: But maybe it`s so rehearsed right now, Dr. Drew. Maybe that her attorneys have gone through it so many times that she`s just saying lines at this point.

COOMBS: Maybe it`s just acting.


COOMBS: Bad acting.

PINSKY: So, Mark, this is your field. This is what you do with defendants. You have defendants to lie and act on the stand?




EIGLARSH: No, but let me change the words around a little bit. For sure, she has properly practiced/rehearsed, number one. And number two, her attorneys have told her, you win this battle if you stay calm. Stay calm, because when cross-examination happens and this hot-headed prosecutor comes at you, you will beat him if you stay calm. And that`s what she`s doing.

PINSKY: Loni, last word.

COOMBS: Mark, do you really think that she wears glasses?


EIGLARSH: Hell no.


PINSKY: You know what? You know what. She`s wearing a prescription right now, because when she turns her head to the side, you can see the eyes -- the part -- see me. This little space here?

WALSH: She borrowed somebody`s prescription glasses. They may not actually help her to see.

PINSKY: Maybe that`s why she looks out so strangely at the audience and all. All right. Thank you very much, Gayla. I do appreciate you being here and sharing your thoughts, Gayla Lynch. Also, Loni Coombs, Mark Eiglarsh. We have Mark from

Next up, I`ve got my jurors from the courtroom. They`re going to weigh in about what went down today and how they`re feeling about Jodi now.

And then later, we`ll be addressing a preschool sex scandal with four and five-year-olds, the father of a boy who says he was victimized by another child. And I`m warning you, this is difficult, graphic, disturbing. We`re going to try to tackle it. Tragic, after this.


PINSKY: It`s time for what we`re calling "Dr. Drew`s Jury." I`m back with my co-host this week, psychologist, Wendy Walsh. Joining us Katie Wick and Carolyn Reynolds. They were in the courtroom today as the Jodi Arias trial continued. And Jodi, herself, continued her testimony. All right. Now, Katie, yesterday you had like zero sympathy for Jodi. How do you feel today?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW, "JUROR": I have zero sympathy for Jodi.

WALSH: Wow! Nothing changed?

WICK: She was on the stand -- no, nothing -- nothing changed at all, because today, I saw her, she actually -- she was talking and she actually laughed. She was talking about when she was at the convention with Travis and she kind of giggled and laughed, and I looked at Travis` sisters, and I thought that`s just completely inappropriate.

And then, she started -- when she started talking about the sex and all that, then she started getting a little bit -- she began to look down and started picking at her nails, and I just think she is playing this to the hill, although, she was a lot more confident on the stand today than she was yesterday.

PINSKY: Yes, Katie, I heard a lot of things like -- you observed, I observed, too, that looking down at her hands during the talk -- this talk about the sexuality when she was supposed to be so uncomfortable look disengenuine (ph). A lot less "ums" than today, almost every answer to the beginning of yesterday`s testimony started with "um." An "um" for me means I`m thinking about my lie.

WALSH: Do you think she was reprimanded last night by her attorneys?


PINSKY: Carol, do you agree with Katie or do you have any other thoughts?

WICK: No, just that, and it was really interesting, because between the morning and the afternoon session, I saw the prosecutor. I was watching the prosecutor very closely, and he was sitting back in his chair, pretty relaxed.

But then, when Jodi began in the second session, the afternoon session talking about the sexual encounters and all of that, saying how embarrassed she was, I saw Prosecutor Martinez start really writing away, writing away, thinking, yes, Jodi, I bet you were real embarrassed. I have a little idea of probably what`s going through his mind on

WALSH: Which is what? What`s his idea?

WICK: Which is, you sure weren`t embarrassed when you were doing this, were you?

WALSH: Right.

PINSKY: Carol, your thoughts?


WICK: The photos.

REYNOLDS: Well, she did change today. When I got to see her directly about two weeks ago, and it was just me looking at her and she has a completely different demeanor, and actually, she can stare at you kind of like an animal.

PINSKY: Wait, wait, Carol, what do you mean? Hang on a second. What do you mean like you can feel sort of an energy coming from her when she looked at you?

REYNOLDS: No, that`s the odd thing. There`s like no energy. And, when she`s on the stand, she can talk and so forth, but when she`s just looking at you, she`s robotic, but in the oddest way, because she moves kind of slow. And I wondered if that`s part of her problem.

WALSH: Dr. Drew, what do you make of this?

PINSKY: Right, Carol. And I wonder that myself. Again, the whole notion of the chronic disassociation, you got to wonder about this. People can feel out of body when they`re stressed. That`s what happens.

WALSH: Or is it a symptom of we talked about borderline personality disorder, where she`s really vacant. She`s empty inside, and she`s looking outside of herself --

PINSKY: We`re really kind of talking about the same thing. Katie, what about the family`s reaction to say, you know, let`s talk about Travis` family first. They seem to be shooting darts at her all day.

WICK: Oh, my heart just breaks, Dr. Drew, for this family and I had an experience -- they were just -- they were just looking at her, and I can`t imagine what they`re going through. I actually had a -- I was sitting outside. One day, I wasn`t able to get in. For about an hour later after second session had begun, and I was standing out there.

And all of a sudden, that was the day that the prosecutor put up the photo for a couple seconds, and the family didn`t know, and I was sitting there and I saw the sisters just come running out, just sobbing and crying, and Travis` brother come and that`s when it hit me in my gut, Dr. Drew, that this is real and some people might look at it as a soap opera, but these are real people and their lives are forever, ever changed.

And I got that same stare. I got that same stare that Carolyn got here as well in the courtroom. It`s very, very eerie.


PINSKY: Interesting. Let`s quickly go to a caller who wants to ask you guys a question. This is Desiree in Rhode Island -- Desiree.

DESIREE, RHODE ISLAND: Hi, yes. I just wanted to say, I`ve been following this case. Jodi comes along as she wants to whom she wants to. I think she`s a master manipulator and a sociopath. I mean, just look at her. She is as cold and calculated as they come.

WALSH: You know what`s fascinating is that most of the callers who believe this are females.


WALSH: I want to know what`s going on in the minds of those 11 male jurors. If you were there, Dr. Drew, you`ve got a male brain on your head, what would you be thinking?

PINSKY: I think she might -- not myself, but a male brain, I could see how she might have a certain amount of certainly sympathy for some men. I can see that.

WALSH: What about allure?

PINSKY: Allure, all that kind of quality. If they don`t really --

WALSH: They`re talking about her sexual behavior and, you know, what she did on a first date. Doesn`t that kind of make guys dismiss some of her bad sides?

PINSKY: I`m sure -- I think on some level, you`re absolutely right. Katie, one quick question before I let you guys go. I saw -- I`ve seen too what you guys are talking about. To me, it feels like a fury that`s coming through her eyes once in a while. When she looks at certain people, in response to certain questions, it, really, is a flash. I thought oh -- that`s the stuff that probably we need to hear about. Do you agree?

WICK: Yes, I absolutely agree with you, and it`s interesting, because she stared at me, I`d say it felt a lot longer than ten seconds, but it was about 10 seconds. And I just looked at her, and then, all of a sudden, her attorney or somebody on the defense side walked past her and she says, oh, nice shoes. Completely changed within less than a second. And I just thought, wow, that was interesting.

WALSH: And even a stare for ten seconds. Usually, humans don`t stare for longer than, what is it Dr. Drew?


PINSKY: And now, with a 10 seconds, it makes you feel like there`s something --

WALSH: That`s a long time.

PINSKY: Katie, you have something else to say?

WICK: It wasn`t nice. It wasn`t nice at all. And it was funny because you just mentioned the men. I spoke with a gentleman earlier today after -- it was his first time today, and he had suffered some emotional abuse in his marriage he said. And he said, you know, Katie, the first thing I thought when I saw Jodi was, wow, she`s so petite.

There`s no way -- I just can`t imagine such a petite girl doing this. And I`m thinking of and I look at her hands, Dr. Drew, she`s got very petite hands, and I know I`m not the only one thinking what she did with those hands. And I really wonder if there are men on this jury thinking is it -- there must have been something that led her to do this. Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: I think you`re right. I think that`s what they`re going to build to. Katie and Carol, thank you so much.

Next up -- we`re going to get you guys back, by the way. But next up, I`ve got four and five-year-olds engaged in sexual activity at a church school. We`ll talk about it after the break.


PINSKY: Welcome back. I am here with psychologist, Wendy Walsh, my co-host this week. And now, warning about this upcoming conversation. This could be graphic and disturbing with sexual content, but it`s important that we have to get into this material. Here it is.

Several pre-schoolchildren, I`m talking about four and five-year-olds, are alleged to have taken part in sex acts, oral sex with one another, at a recess, during naps and in a bathroom. Their school is closing for good on Friday.

Wendy, I know you and I hear a lot about child on child sexual abuse. It is much more common than people realize.


PINSKY: But it is very problematic.

WALSH: It`s also important that we make the distinction between normal developmental sexual exploration between peers and something that seems to be a symptom of sexual abuse that`s come from another adult source, perhaps.

PINSKY: OK. So, the way to understand this for people out there is, if a child is showing -- looking at anatomy, exploring, that`s one thing. But when it becomes directed sexual behavior, that does not happen in children, does not -- unless an adult has introduced that, and sometimes, other children can introduce that.

The father of one of the allegedly victimized boys, the father, Richard McCarthy (ph), and his attorney, Greg Owen, is here with us. Owen represents several families who are now suing the school. The lawsuit was, in fact, filed today. Los Angeles County sheriff`s department is investigating this case.

Richard, thanks for being here. I know this got to be hard to talk about. Thank you on behalf of other people who need to know about this. What happened to your son?

RICHARD MCCARTHY, SAYS PRESCHOOL SON WAS SEXUALLY VICTIMIZED: On October 8th, I was -- my wife came home and informed me that I needed to have a conversation with my son to try and get information on what took place at school.

PINSKY: And what did you learn?

MCCARTHY: I learned that the police were there, and that`s all I learned. My son didn`t tell them anything. The next morning, I went to the school. When I brought my kids back to the school and the director -- the director gave me a story that is turning out not to be the truth. I was originally told that this -- this little girl and my son were caught in a bathroom and my son`s pants were around his ankles.

I didn`t think anything of it, but, you know, kids pulling each other`s pants down. It wasn`t until child protective services showed up at my house a week later when I learned that, one, an adult was present.


MCCARTHY: And there was a sworn statement by the adult. When she opened the bathroom door, this little girl was performing oral sex on my son.

WALSH: Oh my goodness.

PINSKY: OK. Now, you know, when kids go through something like that, it`s very important they get treatment. It doesn`t -- you know, it`s important -- it`s problematic, but there are treatments and you`ve got to be sure to avail yourself with this. I would suspect that that girl was --

WALSH: Sexually abused.

PINSKY: -- was sexually abused by an adult.

WALSH: That`s heart -- I mean, in my heart --

PINSKY: That`s specifically how it goes.

WALSH: -- breaks for your son, but my heart immediately breaks for little girl wondering where did she learn this act?

PINSKY: But this is the contagion. This is the cancer that gets in that adults introduce and then it goes through children and it just keeps growing. Now, I have to read a statement from the school. Mr. Owen, I`m going to give you a chance to respond to this. The school says it is not closing as the result to the allegations, but because of a personnel matter.

Here`s part of a statement from the first Lutheran School of Carson to CNN, quote, "The incident that Mr. McCarthy has raised, though unfortunate, happened last October and was addressed and dealt with at that time. Mr. McCarthy chose to keep his son enrolled in the school until a week ago. We do not know why Mr. McCarthy has waited until now to take these allegations to the media.

Greg Owen, you`re the attorney on this case. Tell us, what`s that all about?

GREG OWEN, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILIES SUING SCHOOL: Well, let me tell you what it`s about. Mr. McCarthy`s son was not the first child. We know that this started back in June and that at least two parents went to the school and said, my child has been molested. Those children then went to the school officials, they gave them full and complete reports. Those school officials then chose to hide the information.

We have the memos. They did not tell the other parents. They did not call the appropriate authorities. Our position is very, very simple. If they had made a report and stopped the incidents after the first June incident, none of this would have occurred.

PINSKY: Was the girl or any of the kids referred for treatment or help?

OWEN: I believe that -- well, here`s the thing. It`s a difficult area. This is a socioeconomic development in that particular area. It`s difficult, but these folks found $500 a month to put their children in a school that they thought was safe. They made a contract that the school said, hey, pay us $500 a month, and we promise you that when your children walk up those stairs, they will have sets of eyes on them until you pick them up.

PINSKY: This is so scary, Mr. Owen and for all of us who send our kids to these preschools.

WALSH: Heartbreaking.

PINSKY: Yes -- when they leave the gene pool, it`s scary. I got to take a break. We`ll wrap this up after this.


PINSKY: I`m back with psychologist, Wendy Walsh. We`ve been discussing claims of sex acts between four and five-year-olds at a California pre-school.

WALSH: So disturbing.

PINSKY: It`s disturbing, and we also have mentioned that we speculated that the little girl may be have been sexually abused. We, of course, have no direct knowledge of that. It`s purely us as professionals reporting on the patterns that usually develop when these kinds of things break out.

Richard, my question for you is, what`s the message for people at home? What do you want people to know?

MCCARTHY: You know, at any age, you got to have an open conversation, some kind of dialog with your kids. You know, if you`re leaving them at school, daycare, you need to talk about their day.

PINSKY: And I think -- I always say, Wendy, that no one ever say not my kid. I mean, if you ever say that, you drop your guard for that moment and that`s the moment something happens.

WALSH: Well, and to expand on what he said, and also to teach your children that they can come to you.


WALSH: That they won`t be punished, that there`s no shame in this, because a lot of small children feel great feelings of shame when sexual abuse or molestation happen, and they don`t tell because they`re afraid they`ll get in trouble.

PINSKY: And Mr. Owen, I`ve got about 15 seconds or so to wrap this up. What would you like to say?

OWEN: I think you said it correctly.


OWEN: Ask your children detailed questions, even though, go body part by body part. There`s something called safe touch, bad touch. Once they learn that curriculum, they`re much less likely to be victims.

WALSH: They need the language. YES.

PINSKY: And to empower them to withstand and say no and all those good things that we hope our kids will do, but boy, it is a sexualized dangerous world. We don`t know the impact that pornography has on kids. So, I appreciate you guys bringing this story to us. Greg Own, Richard McCarthy, thank you so much.

Of course, my co-host, Wendy Walsh, I`ll be seeing you tomorrow. I want to thank all my guests tonight. My panel, of course, was as always quite excellent. Thank you to those of you who called us. We`ll be taking your calls again tomorrow night. And thanks, of course, for watching. And a reminder that "Nancy Grace" begins right now.