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More Sexual Details in Jodi Arias Testimony

Aired February 7, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, a graphic litany of sexual encounters from accused murderess Jodi Alexander. She`s trying to prove she killed her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander, in self-defense, but in arguing that Travis sexually degraded her, is Jodi actually giving jurors her motive for murder and sealing her own fate?


VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, is Jodi Arias too clever for her own good? On the stand, she`s been able to remember tons of graphic X- rated details of her sexual encounters with victim Travis Alexander. But will her memory be as strong when the prosecutor grills her about how she stabbed Travis Alexander 29 times, shot him in the face, slit his throat ear to ear?

Plus, Travis and Jodi`s sex life as Mormons. I`ll talk to a Mormon expert tonight. Is he buying defense claims that Travis used the cloak of religion to make Jodi a sex slave? We`ll debate it all with our panel of experts, and we`re taking your calls.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: The kissing got more passionate, more intense. And then he spun me around. He bent me over the bed.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She`s the one that did the stabbing. She`s the one that slit his throat. She`s the one that shot him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She succeeded in making sure that no one could have him.

ARIAS: Is what he had been wanting for a while. I trusted him.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The more that Travis distanced himself from Jodi to his friends, the easier it was for him to keep control of her. And to keep her for his own sexual needs.

ARIAS: Kind of felt like a used piece of toilet paper.

WILLMOTT: Did Travis ever call you names?

ARIAS: He called me a skank. Called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a picture of an abused woman or a jealously obsessed woman?

KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did he provide you with any Valentine`s gifts?

ARIAS: A shirt that he had been joking about getting me for some months. It`s the one that was in the picture that said "Travis Alexander`s." The pink shorts. There was one other thing beneath the shorts. They were boy`s underwear. They were Spider-Man underwear.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the secrets and strategies behind Jodi Arias` graphic and extremely sexual testimony. Will these lush inducing stories of sex convince the jury that Jodi killed Travis Alexander in self- defense?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live.

The beautiful 32-year-old photographer is on trial for stabbing her ex-boyfriend 29 times, slicing Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear and putting a bullet in his head. She says it`s all done in self-defense. But just look at the wounds on these autopsy photos.

Jodi took the stand and told the jury, "Oh, I did it all, because I had to. I had to protect myself to save my life." Listen to this.


NURMI: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June 4, 2008?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.


ARIAS: The simple answer is that he attacked me. And I defended myself.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi repeatedly shocked the entire courtroom as she walked the jurors through her entire life story, giving X-rated details about her sex life with Travis, including when he allegedly pressured her into kinky sex on the day of her baptism into the Mormon Church.

We must warn you, this is graphic, but it is what Jodi said in open court, and it`s central to the defense claim that Jodi was sexually degraded and abused by Travis.


ARIAS: We were kissing, and I was in my church clothes. He was in his church clothes. The kissing got more passionate, more intense. And then he spun me around. He bent me over the bed. He began to have anal sex with me.

NURMI: Did you say anything, did you tell him no?


NURMI: Was it pleasurable for you physically?

ARIAS: At that time, it was painful.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the jury buying her stories? Call me: 1-877-JVM- SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. We`re going to debate it with our legal team in a second.

First, straight out to our producer, Selin Darkalstanian. You`ve been in the courtroom for Jodi`s extraordinary testimony. Give us the big picture. What story is Jodi telling?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, this has been the most sexual testimony I have ever heard in a courtroom. Basically, Jodi is on the stand. She`s taking us through their relationship.

She says she goes to Vegas. She goes to a work convention. This guy comes up to her, meets her, says, "I want to take you to this gala." She doesn`t have a dress. She has to run out, borrow a dress from a friend. He takes her to this gala. They`re smitten with each other. She comes home. Remember, at that time, she`s still in a relationship with another guy. She`s living with him. They own a house together.

She comes home, breaks up with the other guy. She starts talking to Travis. Things are progressing.

Her and Travis, their first kiss. He makes her have oral sex with him. This is according to Jodi on the stand. After that, he starts introducing her to his religion. She converts to Mormonism.

The same day that she gets baptized into his religion, they come home, and he has anal sex with her. She didn`t want to. He makes her have it. He is forcing her to have it. And so that`s kind of where it`s left off right now.

And she`s still telling us -- imagine, there`s so much more. We`re not even at the phone sex. We`re not even deep into their relationship. But this is Jodi on the stand taking us through every single step of their relationship and every single sexual encounter that these two had, we`re hearing about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: From her perspective. He`s not here, of course, to give his side of the story.

The majority of Jodi`s testimony is focused, as you just heard from Selin, on her sex life of the man she eventually killed, Travis Alexander. Now this is her describing what happened after their first kiss. We warn you, it`s sexually explicit. Then we`ll debate it.


ARIAS: This is embarrassing. He began to perform oral sex on me. I was uncomfortable.

He knew what he was doing for sure, but it was just -- felt like too much too soon and, I mean, I couldn`t exactly rewind at that point. I guess it would have seemed to me to be unattractive for -- for me to say anything different or anything negative about the experience. He asked for reciprocation.

NURMI: Did you perform oral sex upon him at that time?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s bring in our legal panel to debate it. We`ve heard about one sexual encounter after another. And they`re getting more graphic. But is it really necessary for her to go through every single time the defendant, Jodi, and the victim, had sex in such X-rated detail?

So expert panel, will all this sex talk backfire on the defense or could it prove the pattern of sexual abuse she hopes will help her prove, ultimately, battered women syndrome? We`ll start with Evangeline Gomez, criminal defense attorney.

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This testimony is critical for the defense. If they didn`t have it, she wouldn`t have a case. It showed thus far that she is the dirty little secret. He had numerous women that he was sending text messages to. A married Mormon woman that he was flirting with. A woman at a convention. Another woman on the side. This is ridiculous. He made her mind mush.

And what the jury needs to understand and what viewers need to understand is that you can`t look at someone and tell if that person is a victim of domestic violence. Beautiful women, mediocre-looking women, beautiful men, can be victims of domestic violence.


GOMEZ: And that`s what people have to understand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Are you seriously kidding me with that explanation? I mean, really? Where is there any evidence that there`s any kind of domestic violence?

So wow we`re to assume that any time a woman has dirty names called to her or she doesn`t like the kind of sex that`s going on and she stays in a relationship, that now she can slit a man`s throat, shoot him and stab him 29 times? If you want to believe that -- this testimony is ridiculous.

Quite frankly, a prosecutor, I`m sure at some point they said that this is not relevant and the defense said, well, we have to try to prove something. We have to try to say that she`s abused. This testimony means nothing.


HONOWITZ: And the prosecutor doesn`t have to do a long cross- examination at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Switzel (ph).

HONOWITZ: Quick question, have you ever been hurt?


ADAM SWITZEL (PH): Yes, I`m here. I can`t even believe I`m listening to Stacey speak the way she does, given the cases that she`s dealt with.

Let`s talk about what this case is about. This case is about like everybody else`s life to a typical "T." We all have skeletons in our closet. And in this case, the defense has opened up this young -- this young gentleman`s closet, and the bones have come flying out. They`re all over the floor. And rightfully so. Because if there`s one thing we know about this case, is that this man was controlling, he was sadistic, he was abusive to her.

And there are two types of abuse. There`s psychological abuse, and there`s physical abuse. And this young lady was psychologically abused. It justifies her act.


SWITZEL (ph): And I think that the defense is going to have a very good point here.


TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY: I think that the defense of Jodi Arias in this case as some sort of battered, abused or degraded woman is really offensive to real victims of domestic violence.

I mean, the things that she`s describing make the victim sound like a jerk. I`m sure he was a jerk. He sounds like a lot of guys that women in America have dated. But to suggest that that conduct would rise to the level -- you send a bad Valentine, you`re not nice to me in public, you call me late at night, you`re insensitive sexually -- to suggest that that`s the sort of conduct that would justify being stabbed 29 times, to me, is pretty outrageous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but what about the -- what about the religious cloak here? I think that is the missing piece of the puzzle. We`re going to talk to an expert in the Mormon religion on the other side of the break.

But Stacey Honowitz, couldn`t that be the missing piece that makes this possibly something that the jury will look at?

HONOWITZ: No, I mean, listen, you never can predict what a jury is going to do. But I don`t think it has anything to do with it at all. Big deal, he said, "I`m a Mormon, and I don`t have sex." Plenty of guys lie to the women that they`re with in order to have sex. That doesn`t mean you get to kill them, because the man lied to you. There has to be evidence here and there is no evidence whatsoever that she is being violated, that she is being abused. That`s what we`re seeing, nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are just getting started with our debate. Calls lining up. We`re taking your calls on the other side. And we`re going to talk to an expert in Mormon religion next.


ARIAS: It was a wooden kitchen spoon that she could keep in her purse. The more we`d squirm, the harder they would try to whack us.

His name was Bobby. He entertained the belief in vampires. I used to read Anne Rice novels.

I saw some books on witchcraft and I thought...




ARIAS: We did what I guess he called -- at the time he called it grinding, so it`s kind of like, you know, just being together but not actually having intercourse. It`s something that, that I guess a lot of Mormons do, but they`re not supposed to. There are different terms for it. Like the Provo push.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense claims Travis was a master manipulator who coerced Jodi into believing it was OK, despite the Mormon vow of chastity, for them to have any kind of sex but vaginal sex outside of marriage.

Jodi claims right after this photo was taken, right after Travis, an elder in the church, baptized her, he subjected her to painful anal sex.


ARIAS: We were kissing. And I was in my church clothes. He was in his church clothes. The kissing got more passionate, more intense. And then he spun me around. He bent me over the bed. He began to have anal sex with me.

NURMI: Did you say anything? Did you tell him no?


NURMI: Was it pleasurable for you physically?

ARIAS: At that time, it was painful.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re delighted to have an expert on the Mormon religion right now. Patrick Mason chairs Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University. Thank you for joining us, sir.

Leading a double life, one as a good Mormon, the other as a sexual deviant. He`s not here to defend himself. But there could be -- we don`t know, but there might be Mormons on the jury.

How do you believe they will react upon hearing this kind of testimony that he baptized her and then allegedly had this kind of sex with her hours later?

PATRICK MASON, CHAIR, MORMON STUDIES, CLAREMONT GRADUATE UNIVERSITY: Well, Mormons take chastity really seriously. The vow, the promise that they make not to have any kind of sex outside of marriage. And so any Mormons who hear that they`d be having this kind of premarital sex would be -- would be shocked. It would go against their religion. But especially the night of her baptism. That would be seen as sacrilegious, really.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Would it be seen as -- which I`m only asking because the defense is trying to prove this -- some kind of sexual deviancy?

MASON: Well, certainly. I mean, any -- for Mormons, you know, sex is beautiful. It`s given to us from God, but only within the confines of marriage. And so any -- any sexual relations, whether it be premarital or extramarital, anything outside of relationships between a man and a woman, would be seen as deviant in some way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone Bien, you are a noted psychosexual and relationship therapist. You heard Jodi Arias talking about the Provo push. In other words, essentially trying to have sexual contact without it being labeled sexual contact. A grinding that doesn`t involve removal of clothes.

It reminds me of kind of like being a little bit pregnant. It`s hard to have sexual contact without having sexual contact.

SIMONE BIEN, PSYCHOSEXUAL AND RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Exactly, Jane. I mean, come on. This isn`t stuff that friends do. Any kind of grinding - - or it`s called -- can be called fractage (ph) as well, any -- that is a sexual engagement. And I don`t buy all this stuff about the fact that, you know, you can`t compartmentalize what sex is. She`s talking about anal sex, oral sex. The clue is in the title. They`re having sex of some description.

What concerns me is when she said, about when they were talking about oral, anal sex, was it enjoyable, and she said it was painful at that time. So she`s given us an indication that actually there were times that clearly she did enjoy it.

But they had this enmeshed crazy addictive sexual power games. That they were clearly both somehow getting off on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I guess the bottom line is, is all this irrelevant? Or do you think, Simone, that some member of the jury might decide, well, maybe she was sexually abused by him and she had to defend herself? I mean, it`s a leap.

BIEN: Yes, I mean, the thing is, I speak to women day in, day out, and, Jane, I`m sure you have friends, we all have friends, who have had some kind of physical, emotional, sexual abuse from guys. Many of us have. And that doesn`t mean that -- maybe in our fantasy we might feel like murdering them, but we control that fantasy, that murderous rage.

She acted out on it. And just whatever happened, that doesn`t entitle for a man to be killed and murdered in such a horrific degrading, sick way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you mentioned the word "degrading." And I`m wondering if, given the fact that she felt she was degraded, if she decided to make this killing particularly degrading. In other words, to kind of even the score. And we`re going to debate on the other side whether she`s actually proving to the jury that she had a motive to murder.

Patrick Mason, again, your expertise in the Mormon religion, was he breaking the rules, I guess, is the bottom line. If any of this is true, and we do know they did have a sexual encounter because that`s pretty well documented in camera photos that were found at the crime scene.

MASON: Yes, there`s no doubt. If, you know, as the evidence plays out and especially the defendant`s testimony. I mean, it would have clearly gone against the rules for Mormons. For this kind -- these kinds of sexual relationships outside of marriage, before marriage. Would have - - would have been -- clearly, Mormons would see it as against the commandments of God to have sex before marriage. There`s no doubt about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to debate. On the other side, is Jodi helping herself or is she showing she had a motive to murder?


NURMI: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June 4, 2008?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.


ARIAS: The simple answer is that he attacked me, and I defended myself.



ARIAS: Those are pictures of Travis` erection.

NURMI: And when did you -- how did you come into possession of these photos?

ARIAS: They were sent to me.


ARIAS: Via his phone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go out to Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session."

You`ve been in court. This penis photo, and that`s what it is. And I`m sorry, this is one of the most sexually graphic trials I`ve ever covered. I mean, it surpasses the Menendez brothers, certainly Casey Anthony. I can`t think of one where there`s such graphic testimony, especially that`s been broadcast on television.

You were in court, I believe, during the time the photo was shown. What was the reaction? And that was it like? Where was it shown?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, it was shown everywhere, Jane. It was -- you`re talking about Travis` erection that was sent by phone by him to her 15 days before he baptized her, right? It was November 11, 2006.

It was admitted into evidence finally yesterday. And it was on a huge screen, you know, 50 times larger than life, in front of the jury. Another monitor behind -- right up above and behind Jodi Arias, on the witness box. Another monitor to the other side of the courtroom that faced the public gallery. And then several computer monitors also facing the gallery but on the lawyer`s table. Everywhere you looked, that`s what you saw, and it was up there for a long time.

Jurors were eventually doing this, and they`re doing this. Because, you know, if they looked at Jodi, they saw it. If they looked straight ahead, they saw it. And enough already, they finally took it down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, it`s been awkward, even me talking with our staff, the producers. We`re using language that we normally don`t use. There`s kind of an awkward ick factor. And it has made us, all of us at times, like, really uncomfortable. Is it uncomfortable in the courtroom?

KARAS: Well, it is for some. There was a spectator yesterday who had her head down like that during the whole time the photo of the erection was up there.

But you know, we don`t televise sex crimes cases. So I mean, somebody who has been repeatedly sexually abused, raped, for example, is going to have testimony like this. But their affect might be a little bit different on the stand, although flat affect is not unusual in rape cases when victims testify.

So we don`t televise those. The law doesn`t allow it in most cases. So...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That`s what`s unique. Yes, that`s what`s unique about it. There`s the defendant bringing this up. Such an odd situation.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Lori, Washington, your question or thought. Lori, Washington.

CALLER: Hi, Jane, thank you.


CALLER: When they were talking about her previous boyfriends, she said today that she thought that one of her boyfriends was seeing another person. She went over to his home, confronted him. He then got abusive, in a stranglehold. She said she about passed out.

Then he mentioned about -- she said she -- if her family knew, they wouldn`t like it. Then he jumped on her. And said that he would kill all of her family. She attempted to make a 911 call, which he stopped.

At no time did she say that she tried to defend herself, nor did she try to get out of there. She didn`t even try to kill him. And he actually did attack her.

I think she killed Travis because he had a girlfriend obviously, and she gave him his last taste of sex for several hours like they give Death Row men their last meal and then proceeded to kill him because she didn`t want anybody else to have him if she couldn`t have him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, wow, that is a fascinating analysis. Simone Bien, you`re a sex expert. Do you think there might be some truth to that, like last meal before...

BIEN: Yes, I think there -- there could be some truth to that. What I would like to add to that is if she has been physically or sexually abused in her past from her early years, this kind of murderous rage that she has inside of her was clearly externalized, taken out on Travis.

She felt degraded, like he used her, abused her, spat her out, didn`t care for her feelings. Just like perhaps we will hear more of she felt as a child. So she hasn`t processed any of that. If she hasn`t gone to therapy, if she hasn`t dealt with any of that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are so right.


BIEN: ... externalize all of this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone, if people went to therapy, there would be far fewer killings in this world.

She claims her mother beat her with a spoon. If she had gone to a therapist and worked that out or maybe in some kind of 12-step program, we wouldn`t be here today.

So much more intense debate to come on the show.

At the top of the hour, Nancy Grace looking at whether the jury could actually be buying into the defense case. Nancy, 8/10 Eastern right here on HLN.

On the other side, we`re going to bring you more highlights, or lowlights, as it were, of Jodi`s testimony and debate. Is she sealing her own fate?


ARIAS: I felt an attraction to him. It wasn`t anything defined. We were sort of seeing each other.

He wasn`t treating me bad. He just seemed checked out. Kind of distant. Primarily physical. I kind of felt like a prostitute, sort of. I felt used, but I knew I`d gone there on my own willingly.

He didn`t return my call. I called him one more time.




JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: It was a wooden kitchen spoon that she would keep in her purse. The more we squirmed, the harder they would try to whack us.

His name was Bobby. Well, he entertained a belief in vampires. I used to read Anne Rice novels. I saw some books on witchcraft and I had thought --

I found Daryl very attractive, a George Clooney-type. I`m a one guy at a time kind of person. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw somebody walking toward me. He looked like he had purpose so I stepped out of the way. And he was licking his lips and he was staring at my lips. We had some kind of chemistry. I just didn`t want to, like, snuff it out.

He had his temple garments on under sweats. Mormonism is the butt of a lot jokes on South Park.

This is embarrassing. Oral sex. He wanted to receive it. He wanted to do it. He refused to kiss me afterward because he said it was gross.

He called me a skank. He called me Pollyanna. Called me porn star. I kind of felt like a prostitute sort of. We did what I guess he called at that time he called it grinding. It just seemed like he sort of had the Bill Clinton version.

I trusted what I was told by him. So I didn`t feel like we were sinning. Kind of felt like a used piece of toilet paper.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable testimony from Jodi Arias. Talking about her sexual relationship with the man she ultimately admits she killed. Claiming now she killed Travis in self-defense. That he was sexually abusing her. That he baptized her into the Mormon faith and then hours later coerced her into anal sex arguing that was ok, even though they had just taken a vow of chastity. Is she inadvertently giving the jurors her motive for murdering him?


ARIAS: He called me a skank. He called me Pollyanna. He called me porn star.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was he treating you as a girlfriend in front of these people and not in front of others? Is that what you`re telling us?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he introduce you to them as his girlfriend?

ARIAS: No. I was kind of just a friend. I didn`t feel very good.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s debate it with our legal panel. Is Jodi inadvertently giving jurors her motive for murdering Travis?

We`ll start with Tanya Acker, attorney out of Los Angeles.

TANYA ACKER, ATTONREY: I think Jane, that so much of her testimony is a distraction. This case is not about Mormons, sexual deviancy -- by the way there are a lot of faiths and a lot of people who try to avoid intercourse by doing exactly what it is Travis is accused of doing.

She sounds like somebody who`s simply angry because this guy didn`t treat her well and it is not a motive for murder. I`ve heard nothing that rises to the level of abuse. I`ve heard nothing that suggests that she was in imminent danger.

ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nothing that`s abusive? The sexual abuse -- I can`t believe I`m sitting here listening to people minimize the sexual abuse. All the things she went through. I think her testimony --


SWICKLE: -- is absolutely helping her because remember the defense is going to call experts, those experts are going to opine that the conduct and the abuse and the control that this man had over her is exactly like that of a battered wife. Like I said before, this is psychological abuse. This is just as powerful as any physical abuse.

HONOWITZ: What kind of abuse -- she kept going to him. She kept going to him. Did you forget that?

SWICKLE: That`s what a battered wife does.

HONOWITZ: She wasn`t with him.

SWICKLE: You know that, Stacey, you know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. Stacey your turn.

HONOWITZ: This was not a cult. She wasn`t living under the auspices of Jim Jones or someone having a gun to her head and forced her to have sex. She was in a relationship. He treated her like crap. Like a lot of girls get treated. They call their girlfriends and they go, this guy`s a you know what, I can`t stand him. They don`t go to the house with a shotgun and a knife and kill the guy. And that`s exactly what we have here.

SWICKLE: When you`re sexually abused, you do. When you`re sexually abused, you do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Evangeline -- Evangeline Gomez.

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, ATTORNEY: Thank you, Jane. This woman has a demonstrated history of not being able to get out of relationships. With Mr. Juarez, after he threatened to kill her family members and he hit her the day after.


GOMEZ: Why did she stay? She said I couldn`t leave. The same with Travis -- she couldn`t leave. Listen, Jane, honestly --

HONOWITZ: How do you not leave? You get in your car and you drive away. That`s how you leave.

GOMEZ: She had been -- her mind has been made mush. That is part of being a victim of domestic violence.

HONOWITZ: Oh my God. Oh please.

GOMEZ: As a prosecutor, you should know that.

HONOWITZ: I`m a prosecutor. I have plenty of women that come in my office --

GOMEZ: Exactly. And you should know that.

HONOWITZ: -- wait a second. That are in relationships that come in my office and they say, wait a second, he forced me to have sex last night. I said, is he your boyfriend? Yes he is. That`s a true person that said I`m abused. She comes to my office and she files a police report. What did this girl do? She kept going back --

GOMEZ: Not all --

SWICKLE: You have these exact same arguments --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on everybody. Please -- ok. So, how different is that, though, Stacey, from what she tells -- if you can believe her -- that she gets baptized, she`s under his sway, this spiritual superior who baptizes her. And then hours later, he says it`s ok to have anal sex even though we just took a vow of chastity because it`s not vaginal sex. And she claims it was painful.

Where do you draw the distinction there between the example that you just used of a woman coming in saying my brother forced me into sex and this?

HONOWITZ: "And forced me into sex" and there`s medical evidence that he forced her or hit her. This guy, she should have gone to the church and went to the elder and said I think it`s a violation of Mormonism. He told me we`re not supposed to have sex --

SWICKLE: That`s not what abused people do.

HONOWITZ: That`s what it is.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. One at a time.


SWICKLE: That`s not what an abused person does --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go to Adam.

SWICKLE: -- that has got the same symptoms as a battered wife. They go back to the relationship.

Stacey, you`ve argued this in your cases.

HONOWITZ: That`s exactly right.

SWICKLE: I`ve watched you over and over again. And now you`re flipping the coin on us.

HONOWITZ: Where do you see this? Where is the mental abuse in all this? Where do you see any mental abuse? I didn`t like the anal sex this time. Did you hear her say that?



I wish I had my gavel but I don`t. Listen, I want to bring in --

SWICKLE: If this girl was abused, let`s face the facts. She was abused --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- this is a very, very interesting debate, but Patrick Mason, you are an expert in Mormon religion and in religion. You`re chair of the department of religion at Claremont Graduate University and chair of Mormon Studies.

Is religion the missing factor here? If somebody baptizes you, psychologically, do they gain a hold on you that another boyfriend or lover would not have? In the act of baptizing her, does he get a power over her? Psychologically and emotionally that he would not otherwise have?

PATRICK MASON, CLAREMONT GRADUATE UNIVERSITY: Well, obviously, I can`t speak to her psychology or what she thinks. But there`s no mystical hold that he holds over her. Certainly that`s usually a relationship that`s a special relationship that you have with -- between the person who baptizes you and the convert. And usually that`s a very close and sacred relationship.

There`s no kind of mystical power. There`s no official ecclesiastical power that that person would have over you. It`s simply a personal relationship like any other.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. On the other side of the break, we`ll ask that same question of our sexual experts and relationship therapist, Simone Bienne.

Stay right there.



ARIAS: Gets a hotel room, I show up. We hang out. We have sex. Not really there presently. He`s not mentally present. I`m getting a lot of attention but only while we`re engaging in sexual activity. And then we check out and he takes off.

And I kind of felt like -- like a prostitute, sort of.




ARIAS: He didn`t leave welts as often as my mom. She also used a belt. Her blows felt a lot worse actually.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did your mom`s beatings with a wooden spoon -- did they continue in high school as well?

ARIAS: They continued for a short time but I think as I turned 16, 17, she didn`t -- I don`t recall her carrying the wooden spoon around. She would just start grabbing whatever was available like a hair brush. She had acrylic nails so sometimes she would grab me and dig her nails into my skin.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s Jodi Arias saying that she was abused and beaten by her mother and her father. Simone Bienne, relationship therapist, we know that women who were beaten as children often seek out abusive relationships to re-enact it subconsciously, to try to make it turn out better. Will the defense take that and meld it to the abuse they claim, Jodi suffered at the hands of Travis Alexander?

SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Jane, you make a really good point. Yes, this all plays out. You try and change the ending. But the point is that so many of us have been through this and tried to change the ending. We don`t go and murder the people, who have abused us, and that is the point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I get that. I get your point. But I`m trying to establish what the defense is going to do. They`re going to bring in domestic violence experts. They`re going to bring in a psychologist. We`re trying to get a preview and try to understand the strategy. How could it tie together?

BIENNE: It can tie together in the sense that it could make her feel so murderous, like you say, it gives her the motive. But we`ve got to remember, she kept going back again and again. So each time she goes back, she becomes more murderous, more rageful.

It sounds like to me it was premeditated. She went a week before to go and get the gun. This is a woman who was so dead inside that, sadly, any kind of attention, whether it was abusive or not, was filling up that dead space. That doesn`t mean you go and murder somebody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know what; there`s a phrase for that -- negative attention. If people can`t get positive attention and they have that hole inside, they`ll go for negative attention. At least it`s attention.

Compare and contrast. Two stories Jodi told. One about those ninjas that came in and killed Travis. She`s since recanted that. But listen to the comparisons here. That`s the one story.

Then there`s one about a former boyfriend she claims, it`s her claim, tried to strangle her. Listen.


ARIAS: He said, if you ever, ever, ever say anything about this -- he said they`ll do to my family the same way and me.

He started strangling me. And just for a few seconds. And then he let go. I almost passed out. I fell on my knees. I said my family would be very upset if they found out what you just did. And then he began to describe in detail how he would kill each member of my family.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jean Casarez, "In Session" correspondent -- you`re out there in Phoenix. I mean these are two different stories. And yet this theme of oh, I`m going to kill every member of your family -- a little suspicious?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes, yes, I mean, there`s a pattern. The facts are so similar. And you know what her response was during her testimony when she talked about this boyfriend Bobby Juarez that was strangling her and then said he would kill every member of his family. She said, "I got a little upset." That was the response to that.

And furthermore, if you were reliving that, wouldn`t you be emotional?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, and, again, just as Travis Alexander is not here to defend himself, this boyfriend, he`s not around in this courtroom to stand up and say, hey, she`s lying. Your honor, she`s lying. I mean, look at the lives that are being impacted by this. It`s outrageous.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Lisa, Illinois you question or thought - - Lisa, Illinois.

LISA, ILLINOIS (via telephone): Hi, Jane. Thank you for taking my call. Jane, I just wanted to mention, I hear Jodi make reference to Travis said that anal sex was accepted in the Mormon religion but vaginal was not. She was also visited by missionaries. Had she not read the Book of Mormon prior to changing her religion?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we are very honored to have with us an expert in the Mormon religion with us tonight -- Patrick Mason. Does the Book of Mormon have any explicit sex talk in it that would give anybody a clear path about something so graphic?

MASON: No, it doesn`t. I mean, the Book of Mormon does talk very strongly about the importance of chastity but it`s not a sex manual. It doesn`t talk about or differentiate between different kinds of sex. And so generally that would be outlined, you know, if you went and talked to a bishop or a priesthood leader, you know, or some other leader of the church and some other friends who have a lot of experience in the church. She could have gotten that kind of information. But it wouldn`t come directly from the Book of Mormon.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on the other side. We`ve got a lot to cover. Stay right there.


ARIAS: Those are pictures of Travis` erection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when did you -- or how did you come into possession of these photos?

ARIAS: They were sent to me.


ARIAS: Via his phone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for our "Pet o` the Day". Send your pet pics to Dutch, oh, so handsome. Jillian Rose -- very distinguished indeed. And Prinny, oh, you make me grinny, Prinny. And Steve, I like that, simple and calm -- almost like he could run for office.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shannon Hogan is writing a book on this case. It is called "Picture Perfect". Thanks for joining us, Shanna. You know, you`ve been there. You`ve seen the prosecutor. How frustrated do you think he is over this long-running direct of Jodi Arias?

SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR, "PICTURE PERFECT" (via telephone): You know, he is just waiting to pounce. You see him scribbling notes furiously. He can`t wait. He just can`t wait to get at her. And he is going to skewer her.

And an interesting thing I found out about was he was the prosecutor on another death penalty case, Arizona`s -- one of their only three women on Arizona`s death row and that woman testified on the stand for nine days. So he sat through this entire thing with an entire self-defense claim and he got a death penalty conviction in that case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you are looking at the prosecutor, Juan Martinez. I`ve seen what looks like a little frustration. I mean just sitting there and having to listen to all this and not really be able to respond because it is a death penalty case. So the judge is going to give this defendant a lot of leeway to tell her side of the story. You don`t want to put somebody potentially to death without giving them that opportunity which is one of the reasons why she`s allowed to go on and on and on without the judge saying move on.

More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Round robin with our legal team. Given her taking the stand for so long, is the death penalty now unlikely? Starting with Tanya Acker.

ACKER: No, I don`t think it is. I think the jury`s not going to buy big parts of her story and I think there`s a big conclusion to be drawn that she killed this guy in cold blood.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz?

HONOWITZ: I think it`s still there. It`s premeditated. The story`s a bunch of you know what, and I think the death penalty is there and deserving.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Adam?

SWICKLE: Absolutely unlikely. Remember it only takes one juror, one juror only and there are lots of lesser counts that this jury can compromise on.


GOMEZ: The prosecutor`s case is in shambles. Don`t know if he can prove without a reasonable doubt. I think they`re going to let her go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, wow, what a wide range of opinion. We`re all over this case. We continue to analyze it tomorrow. Join us right here.

Nancy next.