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Nancy Grace

Jodi Arias Says Travis Attracted to Little Boys

Aired February 11, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I woke up and he was on top of me, and he had already penetrated and started having sex with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You woke up with him inside you.

ARIAS: Yes. I wore cotton shorts to sleep, and they were gone, and my shirt was pulled up pretty high. He was in the act of vaginal sex.

-- pulled me on top of him and then started pushing my head and my shoulders under the covers.

Well, I presumed oral sex. I guess I just wanted to follow through with -- you know I just wanted to let him finish.

He complained about (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and about how painful it was if he has a sustained erection (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That`s my understanding of it, anyway. They were all Spider-man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he express gratification when you had them on your body?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How so?

ARIAS: He said, That`s hot. He had a list of fantasies he wanted to fulfill. I had to drive up to the home. He wanted to get out of the car, have me come out of the house, give him oral sex, and he wanted to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face and then get back in his car and drive away without saying a single word.

-- picked up whatever it was he dropped and took it inside to find out what it was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it?

ARIAS: It was Toblerone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on your face and threw you some candy?

ARIAS: Pretty much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight, Jodi Arias back on the stand testifying in graphic and self-serving detail. This as we learn the defense plans to trash the dead victim in the worst way imaginable. And the judge is allowing it.

We are live at the Phoenix courthouse. We`re going to go straight back into the courtroom. I want to warn you what the Arias defense is doing. Jodi Arias is on the stand and she is claiming that she walked in on Travis Alexander and found him with hard copies of pictures of little boys and that he was masturbating to them.

Now, that should ring alarms in your head because where would you get such photos? The experts have testified they ran his computer over and over and over, his cell phone, everything. There was not a single such pornographic image there to be found.

Why would we believe her? And why is the judge allowing this horrific distortion of Travis Alexander?

Let`s go in the courtroom, Liz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating. And I got really embarrassed. Even though we had been intimate, like more times than I could count, it was just kind of awkward walking in on him like that.

And I was headed toward the dresser, then I stopped, and I was trying to think of something funny or witty to say, like, Do you still need my help, or something. And he started grabbing at something on the bed, and I realized they were papers.

And as he was grabbing the papers, one kind of went sailing off the bed and it fell in that pattern that paper falls and it landed face up near my feet, and it was a photograph .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is in the photograph? What was the photograph of?

ARIAS: It was a picture of a little boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you guess how old for us the little boy was?

ARIAS: Oh, 5-ish -- 5, 6. I`m not a good judge of age.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you recognize the little boy?

ARIAS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the little boy dressed?

ARIAS: He was dressed in underwear, like briefs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Notice her looking down. Look at her demeanor. No matter what she has been describing for the jury, she has been looking them in the eyes until she`s telling this.

Now, do you really believe she was so embarrassed? She`s been having oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex with this guy at the drop of a hat. Didn`t matter what he asked her to do, she would do it, and she`s suddenly embarrassed? Do you really believe Travis Alexander would masturbate to pornographic pictures of little boys with her in the next room, with child pornography spread all over the bed for her to come in and find him?

And another thing. What is he, the first pedophile ever in the history of the world that did not have child porn on his computer?

Let`s go back in the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I was frozen there for a minute -- well, maybe not a whole minute, but I didn`t know how to react. It kind of seemed like one of those dreams where something is really off but you just can`t -- you can`t figure it out.

And so I -- I left the angel there on the dresser and I turned (INAUDIBLE) and he called my name and I just ran. I didn`t stay. And I got in my car and started driving home again.

I felt nauseated. I drove all the way home, and I was trying to drive fast enough to get to -- well, I was trying not to pull over to throw up. I got home and I was hitting the garage door opener about half a block away so that it would be open. And I pulled right into the garage and ran inside and threw up in the bathroom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Stunning testimony. And I am so angry, I could chew a nail in half right now, chew a nail and spit it out all the way to the courtroom! Why the judge is allowing this, I don`t know.

We are taking your calls. Out to Liz in New York. Liz, I guess you know now that the judge is allowing Arias to testify to this supposed scenario where she catches Travis Alexander masturbating to child pornography. Yet the experts have testified -- defense and state have testified about computer and texting issues. Nobody found this type of pornography on his computer, Liz in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, I am sick to my stomach over this. Number one, if there were -- she kept the possession of the underwear and the T-shirt, but where are the boy`s underwear that she supposedly got? She could describe them in detail. I can describe my son`s underwear in detail. But where is the underwear that she supposedly got?

And number two, she just talked about she wanted to kill herself and that she was calling her friend Matt for a gun. Do you think this is leading into why she had a gun, because she wanted to kill herself? This is how premeditation -- she`s trying to take it off the table because this is disgusting.

GRACE: I think that`s exactly what they`re doing, Liz in New York.

And another question. Out to you, Jean Casarez. After she claims that she sees Travis Alexander masturbating to child pornography, a little boy`s, does she break up and she never sees him again?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": No. Because she said that what -- the way she tried to mitigate it -- and those were her words, "mitigate it" -- is thinking, What happened to him when he was young? Why would he have to do this? What did he go through when he was a young boy?

And he called several times, she said. She did not answer, but finally, he left a very emotional e-mail -- voicemail and she called him back, and then she went over to his house.

GRACE: So if he e-mailed her, wouldn`t there be evidence of that e- mail? You can`t delete anything in this day and age.

CASAREZ: It was a voicemail. It was a voicemail.

GRACE: He never e-mailed her about it?

CASAREZ: She testified a voicemail. She said voicemail. That`s what she just testified to several hours ago. And when she went to his home, the question was, Did you bring it up with him? I didn`t have to. I stayed silent, and he started to talk.

GRACE: And what, did he call her home?

CASAREZ: He called her cell phone.

GRACE: So would there be that record?

CASAREZ: He called her cell phone.

GRACE: Is there a record...

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: I would think all of these calls...

GRACE: ... cell phone call?

CASAREZ: I would think so. You know, Nancy...

GRACE: You know what...

CASAREZ: ... we don`t know specifically every single call, and that has got to be a focus of the rebuttal case here.

GRACE: You know, Jean, I am just disgusted what they are doing to Travis Alexander. It is a travesty. And this judge is allowing it. They`ve already murdered him. Now they`re murdering his reputation.

Go in the courtroom, Liz, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I wanted -- I wasn`t -- I couldn`t imagine, like, never talking to him again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

ARIAS: That would just be -- if we never spoke again after that point, I would feel unsettled and -- I don`t know. I wanted to let him explain at least.

I went out and checked my phone again. My phone was turned off in the visitors` center. So I went out and checked my voicemail, and there was a frantic voicemail from him finally, and there were more missed calls. And he said, Come over and talk to me, and that kind of thing. And so there was something...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, Jodi, let me -- let me address the question. Perhaps it`s difficult, but why would it be -- you just -- from what you`ve told us, you saw him masturbating to the image of a child. Why would it have been a problem for you -- or why couldn`t you imagine not having any more contact with him after that point in time?

ARIAS: When I was thinking in the temple -- I mean, I`ve heard in the past that, usually, people who have problems like that were hurt when they were children. And I kept thinking, What if he was hurt when he was a kid? And it made me angry to think of him as a kid and somebody violating him!

It was a package. I don`t remember how many were in the package, but there were three designs, like, three styles. I mean, they were all the same cut, but they had three different patterns. They were all Spider-Man.

I don`t remember the size, but they were definitely for little boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you feel wearing these boys` underwear?

ARIAS: Well, not hot. I felt kind of silly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he express an intention to use these underwear or have you wear these underwear during a future sexual interaction?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you feel about that?

ARIAS: I was a little confused.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: For anyone that loves our justice system, I guarantee you Lady Justice is crying tonight after the defense in the Jodi Arias case was allowed to have Jodi Arias on the stand under oath describe a scenario which was entirely unbelievable, for me, in which she claims Travis Alexander is in the next room -- she`s there in the home. He knows she`s in the home.

And he`s got child porn laid out on the bed, little boys, and that he`s masturbating to it, and that she walked in, saw what was happening and was embarrassed -- this is after she has done everything you can imagine sexually with him, even in public. She`s so embarrassed, she runs out and leaves and drives home.

Now, number one, I don`t believe this is true because computer experts have claimed they found no such pornography on Travis Alexander`s computer or cell phone, number one.

Number two, since when is she embarrassed about anything she does sexually with Travis Alexander? And that he would do this with her in the very next room -- it doesn`t make sense, like much of her story. But why the judge would allow this is stunning.

Out to Josh Denne, close, close friend of Travis Alexander, knows Arias. What do you think, Josh?

JOSH DENNE, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S: I think it`s absolutely insane to even -- for her to even talk about all these things that she`s been talking about, after the 48-hour issue, after the story she concocted in the beginning, and now all of a sudden, you know, this child pornography comes up? I mean, that`s ridiculous.

GRACE: Awful. Awful! What could you say about a man that is worse than this? I can`t even think of anything worse than claiming a man or woman is a pedophile. What is -- what could be worse? What more could they do to Travis Alexander, Josh Denne? What do you know of these two people? What do you know of Arias?

DENNE: When I first met Arias, I remember walking up to her and shaking her hand and looking in her eyes, and she just -- she struck me as somebody I didn`t really want to get to know. I don`t know what it was, it`s intuition in my heart. I just didn`t really want to get to know her. She seemed off.

And when I knew my good friend, Travis, who -- you know, we`d vacationed together. I mean, Travis is an amazing human being. Anyone who knew him loved him. He wanted to help people. He always went out of the way to make certain that anyone that he was interacting with was taken care of, had a positive experience with him.

And when I saw these two together, it was a little strange. And then after about a year or so, all of his friends, all of us were saying, Hey, look, you should probably be hanging out with this girl. There`s something off.

And I`ll never forget. He was supposed to be on a trip to Cancun and all of us were there, and Travis wasn`t there and I heard the news for the first time that he had been killed. And the first thought -- the first thought that entered my brain was Jodi, Jodi Arias. It must have been her.

I mean, this is -- as soon as we found out that -- that she`d been -- she`d been -- he`d been killed. It just -- it I can feel my heart pounding in my chest. I can feel the tears welling up in my eyes as I hear this preposterous story she`s concocting to create some sympathy for herself. I -- it`s...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In a stunning turn of events, the trial judge in the Jodi Arias case has actually allowed Arias to testify that she happened upon Travis Alexander while he was masturbating to child pornography. None of this was found on his computer or cell phones. None of this was found in his home. Nowhere.

Go in the courtroom, Liz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you come away with the understanding that Mr. Alexander had a sexual interest in children?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you believe (INAUDIBLE) an interest in young boys?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you believe him to have an interest in young girls?

ARIAS: I already knew he was interested in young girls, but they were, like, sexually mature girls, but minors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What has happened to the rules of evidence?

Out to you, Alexis Weed. What, she can just say whatever she wants? What happened to the rule book? This is inadmissible! How is the judge allowing this, Alexis?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... and listen to Jodi Arias go on and on and on talking about these very, very sexually deviant acts that she alleges that Travis Alexander engaged in.

Not only that, Nancy, but Jodi Arias -- you asked earlier what could be more humiliating, more of a way to slather (SIC) Travis through the mud. Well, she also brought up that Travis, today, she said, had actually engaged in intercourse with Jodi Arias for the first time while she was sleeping, Nancy.

So I guess the suggestion there is that he`s also a rapist in addition to a pedophile.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. You know what? It just gets more and more fantastical. So she basically slept through full on vaginal intercourse as she was laying on her stomach, and that she happened to wake up and she never complained. In fact, she said, It took me a few moments to orient myself.

I don`t think it would take me very long to orient myself! I think I could figure out what was happening pretty quickly. And then there was never a complaint.

Out to Dr. Leslie Seppinni, psychologist. Leslie, I`m not buying it. You walk in on a man masturbating to child pornography, and you continue to be his mistress? You continue in a relationship? I don`t believe that for one minute!

LESLIE SEPPINNI, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you`re absolutely right. I mean, this really shows her true pathology as a sociopath. I mean, first of all, anybody who saw that would be running to the police like crazy to protect a child. And anybody who wouldn`t do that is somebody that you don`t want to talk to.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author, New York, Kirby Clements, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, Atlanta.

Mickey, come on, please, just go with me for a moment. Don`t go with your usual, I`m going to defend anybody. I`m not saying Mickey or Kirby. Mickey, this is wrong. Why is the judge allowing this? And you know, Mickey, in this day and age, what pedophile is not going to have 2,000 or 3,000 child pornography images on their computer? This guy didn`t have a single one.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I totally agree with you. But also, the procedure. You can`t just say that this is a child here. When they try somebody for child pornography or child molestation, they bring in an anthropologist from Yale to determine how old that child is.

What you have to understand Nancy, I think, is that the judge is protecting the verdict here.

GRACE: Oh!

SHERMAN: I think the judge is just leaning over backwards...

GRACE: You mean the not guilty she`s going to get because of this?

SHERMAN: Well, I don`t know if she`s going to get not guilty, but if she`s guilty, it`s a death case, the judge wants to appear as though she bent over backwards at every place.

GRACE: Well, I would say a contortion, that she should be in Cirque du Soleil doing some kind of a back bend inside of a little bitty box, Kirby Clements!

SHERMAN: One other point.

GRACE: What?

SHERMAN: Any seasoned attorney will know that this is a very long...

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t hear Mickey, but I will tell you this...

(CROSSTALK)

CLEMENTS: I need to hear her testimony again about whether it was child pornography.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa! I can`t -- wait, wait, wait. Finish up, Mickey, please.

SHERMAN: She is being exposed to the jury for as wacky as she is so that the jury will have a little bit of hesitation before they give her the death penalty. But this is a plea of guilty. It`s taken a long time, but that`s what it is. It`s not a trial.

GRACE: Kirby?

CLEMENTS: Yes, I can`t hear Mickey at all, so all I can tell you -- my original point was that whether she testified that it was images of little boys in underwear or child pornography -- because you can get images of little boys in underwear from Sears catalogs or anything like that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We are live at the Phoenix courthouse in what can only be described as a travesty of justice. Jean Casarez standing by there with Alexis Weed and Beth Karas at the courthouse. Jean, what is the judge`s thinking? Why is she allowing Jodi Arias to tell the jury under oath that she walked in on Travis Alexander masturbating to child pornography, hard copies? Hard copies. I`m not talking about on the computer like every other pedophile in America. I`m talking -- where did he go, to Child Pornography R Us or Walmart Porn? You know, how can you get a hard copy of child pornography if you don`t get it off your computer? You can`t walk into a store and buy child porn, not even an adult store doesn`t sell child porn, and certainly not Walmart.

But what I`m saying is, you would have to get it off your computer, and he didn`t have it on his computer. And she`s in the very next room, Jean. Of course he`s not going to have anything to do with child porn with her in the next room. Of course she would barge in on him.

CASAREZ: Let me answer all your questions. First of all, you asked me the judge`s basis. At the end of this 77-page transcript, the judge says that since their domestic violence expert used this to form the basis of her opinion, she was going to allow it in. So that`s why the judge allowed it in.

Second of all, the little boys had their underpants on, so we don`t know where these pictures came from, but they had their underpants on. She testified that he was arranging boxes, loading boxes into the attic. But, as we heard or at least in this hearing, law enforcement testified there were no boxes or pictures of little boys up in the attic.

GRACE: Let`s go back into the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he wish you to wear this underwear?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this something that fit on your body?

ARIAS: He asked me to try them on while he was on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they fit?

ARIAS: The seat of the underwear fit, but the leg holes, the openings, were too small. They were really tight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were talking on the phone with him, and he insisted that you tried on these boys underwear -- that didn`t fit you because you`re not a little boy -- did he express gratification when you had them on your body?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How so?

ARIAS: He said that`s hot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember what point in time that first encounter happened?

ARIAS: It was in the spring 2007. I think it was in May.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were you when this first happened?

ARIAS: I was in his bed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In his bed where?

ARIAS: In his bedroom, in his house in Mesa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell us what happened.

ARIAS: We fell asleep, and I woke up and he was on top of me, and he had already penetrated and started having sex with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You woke up with him inside you?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had he talked about having penile-vaginal intercourse with you before this event?

ARIAS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say you woke up with him inside you, do you recall, were you dressed?

ARIAS: I wore cotton shorts to sleep, and they were gone, and my shirt was pulled up pretty high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

When you came to, what was happening? When you woke up, what was happening?

ARIAS: He was in the act.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the act of what?

ARIAS: Of vaginal sex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you want him to penetrate your vagina with his penis while you were sleeping?

ARIAS: It`s nothing I had thought about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So when you woke up and you found him penetrating your vagina with his penis, your concern was primarily about chastity, right, the law of chastity -- excuse me.

ARIAS: The consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The consequences. Did you give thought to the idea that this man was having sex with you while you were not conscious?

ARIAS: No, I didn`t give thought to that idea. I felt kind of responsible --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you feel?

ARIAS: I felt like I was partially responsible because I went to sleep next to him. I was wearing cute shorts, a little t-shirt. So, I mean, we might have fallen asleep cuddling, I don`t remember. But I just felt like being in his bed, you know, sleeping there, that it wasn`t entirely his fault. Like maybe it was invited.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. The courtroom today is a disgrace to the justice system. Jodi Arias allowed to testify she walks in on Travis Alexander masturbating to child pornography, that he basically raped her in her sleep. All of this contradicted by physical evidence.

To Aaron Brehove, body language expert. Aaron, you have been watching her. I want to hear your opinion.

BREHOVE: I have. We see her talk about a lot of different issues, and we know she`s a liar. I think that`s already established. And we see her. She`s very calm, collected, throughout this entire thing.

We see a few differences, though. When we watch her speak, when we watch her give answers, we want to see a norm, we want to see a baseline, and what we see is not consistent. There`s one line of questioning where they ask her, did you know that he liked little boys? She says yes. They ask her another question along the same line, and ask her a third question that`s, do you know that he likes little girls? And she gives -- she changes her answer from a quick yes, to, well, I knew he liked girls that were more mature. And she gives this longer answer. And I have got to question, why are we changing so much there? Is she just telling the truth in one of those, or is it that she is associated more with one of those answers?

I think it`s probably that one of those answers might be something closer to the truth, and that`s where she`s getting it, where she is lying with one and telling the truth with another.

GRACE: And out to you, Matt Zarrell. We know what`s going down in the courtroom, but does anybody in that courtroom actually buying this?

ZARRELL: Well, Nancy, I think one thing to note here is that one person in the courtroom today we haven`t seen before, when all this sexual stuff comes out, is Jodi Arias` own father is sitting in the courtroom along with Arias` younger brother. They`re both here listening to all this as it`s being portrayed in court.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, what are the jurors doing?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, this is really interesting. I see two female jurors -- and let me tell you the testimony that was going on when I saw this was about just the sexual episodes, one after the other -- two female jurors are literally engaged in writing so many notes, and they`re leaning forward in their seats. And, Nancy, I don`t know if these two female jurors are going to get on the deliberating jury, but if so, they are going to be leaders in that deliberating jury. They are females. I don`t know which way they will go, but, believe me, they`re vested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He had a list of fantasies that he wanted to fulfill, and so he wanted to drive up to the home, he wanted to get out of the car, have me come out of the house, give him oral sex, and he wanted to [CENSORED] on my face, and then get back in his car and drive away without saying a single word.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You come out on the porch, you fulfill his fantasies, he [CENSORED] on your face and throws some chocolate at you. How did you feel after that?

ARIAS: I couldn`t help thinking that it was kind of like a prostitute. But I didn`t -- I put that out of my mind. I just chalked it up to one of his little antics that he did. If anything, we increased with those kind of things, the antics, all that, it you can call them antics.

On second occasion -- after he was done, he dropped something near me and got into his car and left. And so I picked up whatever it was he dropped and took it inside to find out what it was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it?

ARIAS: It was Tod Leron (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he [CENSORED] on your face and threw you some candy?

ARIAS: Pretty much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this hard for you to describe?

ARIAS: Yes, in front of my mom and dad, it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines. Natalie in Texas. Hi, Natalie. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I`m sending you a big warm Texas hug to you and your beautiful twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: We just love you.

I`m with you, Nancy. I`m spitting nails. Someone needs to stop the bleeding lies. Someone needs to stand up for Travis. I feel so bad for his family. My question is, is why can`t the prosecuting team challenge her to a polygraph test through all these horrible accusations?

GRACE: Natalie, how I wish it was that easy, but under our rules of evidence, polygraphs are only allowed if both sides stipulate to their admissibility before they are taken. That did not happen in this case.

Out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, Raleigh. Ben, you have studied so many cases where pedophiles are involved. How likely is it that Travis Alexander has all of these photos of nude or semi-nude little boys, and there`s nothing like that on his computer or cell phone?

LEVITAN: Nancy, this is such a bad lie. Because it is so verifiable. The most unlikely scenario is that this is the first time Alexander ever downloaded child porn. If that was the case, the browser would be full of search history, and we would see that. It`s -- when we find cases with pornography on it, Nancy, they just -- people collect the stuff. People who do that collect it. And they don`t print it out. It`s just such a bad lie. We see this all the time. It could not possibly be true. The police, believe me, really get riled up about child porn. If they suspected Alexander of any involvement in child porn, they would be on him. This would be more important to them than the rest of the case, because they would be trying to track the source.

GRACE: Well, not only that, Ben Levitan, you just brought up a really interesting point I hadn`t even thought of. Forget about the downloading images, Travis Alexander had never even searched for porn, for child porn on his computer, not on his laptop, not on a desktop, not on his cell phone. He had never even sought it out, much less downloaded it. He had never even gone to a child porn website, to my understanding, Ben.

LEVITAN: Exactly. These things are so verifiable that when people make -- tell lies about technology, it just riles me up. It`s amazing how stupid, you know, she can be in this case. This is something that`s easy to check.

GRACE: To you, Beth Karas, what did you observe with the jury when all of this was coming into evidence?

KARAS: You know, Nancy, it`s really hard to read anything from the jury. Some of them were taking notes. Some of them were just really staring at her. And I saw a couple of jurors kind of looking down, like looking down at their laps. I don`t know what to make of that. Maybe some of them were believing it, maybe some were looking at her thinking this is incredible. I mean, how can she sit here and say these things? And some of them, I don`t know. She`s a very good liar if she is lying about this.

GRACE: Everyone, I want to alert you about the search for a missing 24-year-old very dear to our hearts. 24-year-old Marcus Hall has vanished from his apartment in Greenville, South Carolina. His silver Nissan Sentra, lime green, bike rack, both missing. If you know anything, look at his picture, call Greenville police, 864-232-7463.

And tonight, the search for a missing 2-month-old Rayden Dominguez, last seen Saturday night Humble, Texas. If you have information, please call Humble police 281-446-7127.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What is going down in this Arizona courtroom is a disgrace. The Arias defense team has been given full rein to drag Travis Alexander through the mud. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: The mile high, which we never did. He wanted to pull off of a freeway on a remote highway somewhere and have sex on the hood of the car, which we didn`t do. But he also wanted to have sex on the freeway while driving, which we did. On -- it was the 10 or the 40. We were driving east across Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oral sex?

ARIAS: No. I think it was vaginal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. To the calls. Bonnie? Hi, Bonnie, what`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Hello, Nancy, oh, it`s been driving me crazy. I can`t even sleep at night. Is there anything they can do? First of all, why isn`t the prosecuting team interfering with this atrocity that`s happening, and if not, why can`t something be done about the judge? This should never be allowed.

GRACE: Let`s find out. Out to you, Kirby Clements. I`ve got the same questions as Bonnie. Why do you believe the judge is allowing it?

CLEMENTS: Well, I think what we heard earlier is that their expert has relied upon this evidence in forming their opinion. And as a result, when you want to have an expert give their opinion, the facts underlying that opinion get to come out. Whether you like them or not, and in this case, these are the facts that underlie the expert`s opinion, and so they`re entitled to bring them out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We remember American hero Marine Sergeant Joseph Caskey, 24, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Purple Heart. Navy Achievement Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Family of military vets, parents Gerald and Debbie, brothers Jeremy, Joshua and John. Joseph Caskey, American hero.

Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Bonnie in Louisiana. Hi, Bonnie, what`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just want to let you know, I think she should get the Golden Globe for the best actress. This woman has told so many lies, I think she really believes her own lies, and it`s making her better at it.

GRACE: Bonnie, that`s interesting, a lot of people do believe that liars such as her, killers, do believe their own stories. I, however, think that she knows what really happened, she`s just a consummate liar.

Missy in Kentucky. Hi, Missy, what`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

CALLER: I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: Actually, I can`t even believe I`m talking to you. This particular court case on TV makes me crazy. I have heard her state she wasn`t afraid of this guy, and yet she stabbed him multiple times and shot him, and supposedly, supposedly, the defense started out related to the fear of him, and that`s why she did what she did.

I think that this court case has taken a turn for the worse, and I truly believe that they are going in all directions, taking her specifically out of the situation of murdering this man. And where is this man`s family? I mean, I can`t even imagine what they`re going through.

GRACE: You know, let`s talk about the family for a moment. Beth Karas, the family, Travis Alexander`s family, has been in the courtroom. How are they responding to all this?

KARAS: Oh, with derision on their faces, looks of disgust. He has seven siblings, four sisters and three brothers. Two sisters and one brother have been here almost the entire trial. One of those sisters is a police officer in Southern California, by the way, and a brother-in-law has been here throughout. They have looks of disgust on their faces, and sometimes the sister, the one that`s the police officer, Samantha, kind of smirks, you know, as though she`s giving no credence whatsoever to what Jodi Arias is saying.

GRACE: OK. And to you, Jean Casarez, I`m just wondering how you have observed the family reacting in the courtroom.

CASAREZ: In about the same way. I feel Samantha, the sister who is the police officer, she just seems to be daring Jodi to say one more lie on that stand, just hit it with me. Say one more lie.

GRACE: Everyone, as we go to break, our thoughts and prayers for one of our stars, Mike and his family, the Duffy family, after the loss of their beautiful baby girl, his sister Caitlyn, the youngest of six. Caitlyn Duffy, good night, friend. Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END