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Dr. Drew
Jodi Cross-Examined
Aired February 21, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias on cross. A shaking Jodi crucified by the pit bull prosecutor.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Do you have problems with your memory, ma`am?
PINSKY: Finger-pointing.
MARTINEZ: You don`t have a bent finger here.
JODI ARIAS, ALLEGED MURDERER: My finger is bent here.
PINSKY: Pop Rocks.
MARTINEZ: Well, the Pop Rocks were part of this naughty fantasy, weren`t they?
PINSKY: And Tootsie Pops.
MARTINEZ: The Pop Rocks and Tootsie Pops sexual incident.
PINSKY: What does a crooked finger and candy have to do with murder or Jodi`s state of mind?
ARIAS: When I`m under stress, yes, it affects my memory.
PINSKY: Truth is on trial. Is Jodi enjoying this?
MARTINEZ: No, I`m not asking for an OK. I`m asking for you to tell me the truth.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
I`m joined by my co-host for the week, Laura Baron.
Also with us, attorney at speaktomark.com, Mark Eiglarsh, and Alan Jackson, former Major Crimes prosecutor. He was on the Phil Spector case and oversaw his ultimate conviction.
As for the Jodi Arias case, prosecutor Juan Martinez came out swinging from memory loss to lies to -- well, candy? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Do you have problems with your memory, ma`am?
ARIAS: Sometimes.
MARTINEZ: So you can tell us, for example, what kind of coffee you bought at Starbuck`s back on June 3rd of 2008, but you can`t tell us what you said yesterday or the day before?
ARIAS: I always got the same drink at Starbuck`s.
MARTINEZ: And you can tell us, for example, what type of sex you had with Mr. Alexander many years ago, but you`re having trouble telling us what you said a couple of days ago?
You testified that on January 22nd of 2008, you and Mr. Alexander were involved in some sort of violent encounter. Do you remember telling us about that?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And you told us that during that encounter, he threw you down. Do you remember that?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: To put up your left hand, according to you, he kicked you and he damaged your ring finger on the left hand, correct?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And, in fact, you even held it up for us, didn`t you?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And it was crooked when you showed it to us, wasn`t it?
ARIAS: It`s bent. Yes.
MARTINEZ: It`s bent. Show us how bent it is again, ma`am.
If he caused that damage on January 22nd of 2008, that would have been before this picture that we have here. This transcript we talked about only talks about Tootsie Pops and Pop Rocks, doesn`t it?
ARIAS: No, it mentions the bubble bath.
MARTINEZ: It mentions, what?
ARIAS: The bubbles --
MARTINEZ: And the bubble bath, as part of the Tootsie Pops and Pop Rocks, right?
ARIAS: They were separate, the same night.
MARTINEZ: You were having a Tootsie Pops placed somewhere, right?
It doesn`t distinguish between Pop Rocks and it doesn`t distinguish between Tootsie Pops, does it?
ARIAS: No, it doesn`t.
MARTINEZ: And yet you`re saying here that they are different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know, this case goes from the bizarre to the macabre.
Shanna Hogan is a true crime journalist and author of the forthcoming book "Picture Perfect."
Shanna, where is the prosecution going with all this?
SHANNA HOGAN, TRUE CRIME JOURNALIST (via telephone): Yes, thanks, Dr. Drew. This was the day we have all been waiting for. Basically what the prosecutor tried to do today was to establish Jodi as a cold, calculated monster by methodically picking apart her testimony detail by detail.
What he seemed to be trying to do is erase this picture she`s created over the last nine -- eight days of testimony as a sexually, physically and mentally abused woman and instead showed her as the obsessed ex-girlfriend who could not move on and who is now twisting the facts in court to get away with murder.
PINSKY: Shanna, I understand you know something about the secret messages that are brought up in court. Jodi was giving -- passing along messages in a magazine. How do they relate to Jodi`s claim that Travis was a pedophile?
HOGAN: This was one of the more powerful moments in court. I`ve known about this for a couple years because they came out in some of the earlier hearings. But these messages were written in pencil. Basically, it`s the margin of a "Star" magazine, and what testimony showed today was she was attempting to have these jailhouse messages smuggled out of the jail, delivered to her ex-boyfriend, and when it was deciphered, it basically said, you F`ed up your testimony, you contradicted everything I said in the last year, and come see me before you interview with your attorneys again.
How this relates to the pedophile claim, is that that is the testimony that she started to elicit in 2010 and this ex-boyfriend had come into the picture and had given letters that seemed to show evidence that Travis was a pedophile, which was later proven to be forgery.
PINSKY: Wow, that`s phenomenal, isn`t it, Laura? That`s -- yes, spooky, calculated.
Alan, I want to go to you. How would come out of the gate with a witness who is known to be a liar, known to be a manipulator, called by the man she killed a sociopath, and then again with these weird messages being sent in magazines.
How would have done this?
ALAN JACKSON, FORMER MAJOR CRIMES PROSECUTOR: Well, I agree that one of most powerful points was the magazine. But I probably would have taken a little bit different tack. One of the things that you have to understand, you have to keep in mind when you`re cross examining someone is that you have -- it`s very psychological. It`s a psychological game that you`re playing.
There is theater involved. You have to -- as I put it -- ask permission from the jurors to begin an attack, to swing with hard blows.
There is going to come a time, Drew, there is absolutely going to be a time when the prosecutor is going to need to strike hard blows. The beginning of the cross examination is not usually that time because you haven`t developed that chemistry inside the courtroom with the jury. You haven`t earned that permission to strike those blows.
And I thought that the prosecution came out a little too heavy-handed, a little too aggressive. I thought there was some very good points made, he`s obviously a very talented prosecutor. But I thought it was a little too aggressive too early.
I would have really focused on the magazine article. There were some very, I thought, missed opportunities because it got down into the minutia as opposed to the broader themes of the calculation, the manipulation. Those are the broad themes that you have to stick with as a prosecutor. Those are the broad themes that you want to constantly come back to for the jurors to understand exactly who it is that they`re listening to on the stand.
PINSKY: Mark, how about you? What do you say? Who won here today?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: You know, Drew, I`m going to try to say what I mean and not say it mean, OK?
PINSKY: OK.
EIGHLARSH: First, I don`t think she looked good, but I don`t think she looked good on direct, either. She can`t ever look good because she has some defects in character and her whole story is illogical.
But that being said, I don`t give the prosecutor credit for making that happen. I mean no disrespect. I think he`s doing the best he can at his level of awareness, but I agree with Alan. You know, he came out just completely over-the-top aggressive, completely disorganized. I didn`t know where he was going at times.
This cross examination, when I do it in court, it is completely marked out step by step. It`s a lean filet mignon where of guiding the witness with yes-no-yes-no. Isn`t it a fact that you told 48 hours that you had an ideal childhood and you told this jury that you were abused? Isn`t that correct? Yes. Isn`t that a lie?
So you take her through all the lies and you keep building up with yes and no`s.
PINSKY: Very interesting. And we`re going to talk with some people in the courtroom today, and they disagree with you guys. This will be the second half of the show. They say in the room -- and again, we`re all watching it on TV which is a little different -- in the room, people really felt that Jodi lost the sympathy of the room and the jury.
Next up, the human lie detector is back with me. The Jodi Arias whisperer, we`re starting to call her, is back after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see her eyes looking down, and when she`s looking down, Dr. Drew, it`s almost like her eyes are closed. This is a sign we often se with people who are being deceptive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROSECUTOR: Do you remember stabbing Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: I have no memory of stabbing him. I turned on my phone. There was no reception. There was -- as I began to drive, some reception came, like one little bar and then two and then one and then none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi Arias with her on again-off again convenient memory. Like an episode of "Gilligan`s Island," she gets hit in the head with a coconut and has amnesia.
LAURA BARON, CO-HOST: It is, it`s almost comical. It`s hard to take this woman seriously.
PINSKY: And particularly, Laura, when you look back at some of her older interviews and I`m sorry, I can`t help but hold a Tootsie Pop today.
BARON: Did you go through my purse? Is that what happened in there?
PINSKY: I had to get them somewhere.
BARON: Drew.
PINSKY: You know, this is sort of convenient, and when you hear her previous reports to other media outlets and then these macabre messages through the magazine, it`s all very shifty.
BARON: Yes, that magazine thing was crazy.
PINSKY: Of course, that is Laura Baron.
Joining us also, body language expert and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me," Janine Driver. We call him the human lie detector.
Janine, now --
JANINE DRIVER, BODY EXPERT: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: -- when Jodi has given us her nonsense about the memory, what`s your take?
DRIVER: Well, it`s fascinating, right? So, she doesn`t remember stabbing him 29 times, including nine times in the back and shooting him in the head. What does she remember?
She remembers that she doesn`t have great cell reception afterwards. She had one bar and two bars then one bar and then none. It`s ridiculous. This is what we call convince, not convey, Dr. Drew. Just so people convey information, liars try to convince.
So, here, it`s highly likely that Jodi Arias is trying to convince us by giving us more details that she remembers the cell phone, somehow she`s having some credibility with us and with the jury. I don`t think it`s going well.
PINSKY: So, Janine, I want to stop you. I`m going to interrupt, and -- again, convince, not convey. So, in other words, she`s going overboard with ridiculous detail to convince us of the veracity of what she`s saying, and yet just not matter of factually conveying the truth.
DRIVER: Right. And, Dr. Drew, who else did that? A guy named Drew Peterson who was found guilty today of murdering his third wife. He was found guilty. He was a convince, not conveyor.
She`s overselling, he oversold. Hopefully, we get the same conviction to the nth degree with Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: OK, Janine and Laura, let`s look at Jodi`s body language as she responds to questions about the road trip that ultimately led to Travis Alexander`s death. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: And on this trip, as you left Redding, California, did you have a gun with you?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: Did you have a knife with you?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: Did you have a cell phone with you?
ARIAS: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, you said you wanted to comment on Jodi`s head movements during that commentary. What did you see?
DRIVER: Well, it`s interesting she deviates from her baseline. We call this norming, what is someone`s normal behavior. While she says no, Dr. Drew, you may have noticed she subtly nods her head yes. She subtly nods her head yes.
We saw this with Bill Clinton when he said, I did not have sexual relations with that woman. He suddenly nodded and said yes. The non- verbal here is speaking louder than the verbal. She`s saying no but her non-verbal is saying, yes, I did have a gun. Yes, I did have a knife. Yes, I did think about it.
PINSKY: And, Janine, how about --
DRIVER: This is a big hot spot.
PINSKY: How about the prosecution?
DRIVER: Oh, the prosecution, I`m not --
PINSKY: How did -- go ahead.
DRIVER: I`ve got to agree with Mark. I`ve got to agree with Mark here. I think he went a little too aggressive out of the gate.
I think the evidence speaks for itself. She`s a liar. We`ve got a lot of evidence stacked up against her. We know from research, Dr. Drew, that when an attorney comes out and is like a pit bull, the juries tend not to like them. He should have come out with an open palm gesture.
He should have asked questions like this. In law enforcement, we get more confessions by simply by coming across as the nice guy. I met the detective that got Jeffrey Dahmer to confess.
He knew there was a head in a box. He knew there were decapitated heads around the house. There was vials of acid in the kitchen with human remains.
But this detective was likable. And, at the end of the day, he got a confession, not by being a bully, but by letting the evidence speak for itself and building rapport.
I think this would hurt today coming out so aggressive. The jury may not like him.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Laura.
BARON: And, Janine, by the end of the day, she was smiling. She was smug on that stand.
PINSKY: Smirking, yes.
BARON: She was smirking.
DRIVER: Yes.
BARON: Do you sense that she just felt like she won?
PINSKY: And before you, Janine, she reminded of our buddy Gus on the stand, but he was sort of more flamboyant about it. The same sort of righteous indignation, I thought.
DRIVER: Right, and it`s contemptuous, you know?
PINSKY: Contempt, yes.
DRIVER: So, she does with the behavior, we call this duping delight. She`s basically saying, you`re a fool. And it`s very disrespectful. It`s incredibly disrespectful.
PINSKY: There it is. Look at her right now.
DRIVER: I don`t think it helped her. It didn`t help her, but I think it was kind of a 50-50 today at the end of the day.
PINSKY: Quick call from Dawn in Nevada.
Dawn, did you want to say something to us?
DAWN, CALLER FROM NEVADA: Yes, first of all, Dr. Drew, I love you, but I am so livid right now. I wish I could smack that smirk off that woman`s face like no other.
But my question is, I don`t understand why everybody is accusing Martinez of being a bully and aggressive. My opinion is he`s justifiably pissed off and just trying to get a straight answer out of Jodi. Aren`t we all? Aren`t we all?
PINSKY: Let me ask Alan that -- yes, I agree with you. Let me ask Alan that question. I mean, is he being a bully or he`s just sort of frustrated with the contemptuousness.
JACKSON: Well, no, I don`t think he`s being a bully. And I do believe that he`s frustrated.
One of the things about high profile cases that you can`t get around is the adrenalin that`s attendant to the high profile case. You got folks like us talking about it after the fact.
I tried a very high-profile case, gavel to gavel national media coverage, and one of the things that we had, as a trial team, to fight off constantly was listening too much to the media and not listening to the internal compass or not watching that internal compass inside the courtroom, because there are only 12 people that you really ultimately care about with regard to the chemistry that you`re trying to build inside the courtroom.
And with regard to the caller, absolutely. He is trying to get a straight answer. But there is also an element of a crescendo, there is an element of impact you have to have as well, and he loses that if everything is upset.
PINSKY: All right. I`ve got to go to a break. Jodi does not use the word "I" in the human lie detector. Janine tells us why it proves she is blowing smoke.
Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROSECUTOR: What about the rope he had tied you up with? Did you take that with you?
ARIAS: Yes. Eventually, it went into a dumpster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Eventually, it went into a dumpster. I`m back with my co- host Laura Baron.
Janine, eventually, it went into a dumpster. What did you hear when she said that?
DRIVER: It`s not what I heard, it`s what I don`t hear, which is there is no pronoun, and a pronoun like the word "I" gives us responsibility. It says I take responsibility.
How did it eventually end up there? We think this is smoke-screening. We think she just gave us an answer. We think she just said, I threw it in a dumpster. She did not say that so be careful of assuming.
She said eventually it ended up in a dumpster. How did it end up there? Did a friend meet her and take that and also take the gun? How did it end up there? We think she gives us an answer. She takes no responsibility here. It`s smoke screening.
PINSKY: It ended up the same way the knives ended up in Travis` back. They just ended up there. They found their way into his back, the rope found its way into the dumpster.
It`s very -- there are a couple very spooky points in the testimony today, and that for me was one of them. It`s almost speaking in the third person about -- it gives agency to the rope rather than to what she has done.
DRIVER: We`re also looking at pronouns -- go ahead.
BARON: Do pathological liars have a tendency to this violence?
DRIVER: Well, I don`t know if they have a tendency to violence, but I certainly know with state analysis, which is 50 percent more valuable in detecting deception and body language than actually the words we use.
You know, 70 percent of murderers give away the murder when they say in a book that they`ll write later, for those of you who believe in my guilt, like O.J. said, those of you who believe in my guilt, what are you taking ownership of? You`re taking ownership of guilt. An honest person wouldn`t say my guilt. They wouldn`t take ownership.
Jodi Arias is not taking ownership of throwing away this rope. We don`t really know what happened to the rope.
BARON: Drew, what do you think?
PINSKY: Well, I think that pathological liars are a whole spectrum of disorders, some of which includes things like sociopathy and psychopathy and those can`t be violent.
Now, Janine, law enforcement interrogation (ph) is used in equation to determine someone is lying. Tell me about that equation.
DRIVER: Yes, this is really great, Dr. Drew. This is my baby. I use it all the time when I go on shows like "Anderson Cooper Live," or the "Dr. Oz Show" where I have people lying to me just in a game and I have to find the liar with my reputation is on the line. It`s called the 25-50-25 rule.
Here`s what it means -- 25 percent should be when they`re telling us the story before the incident in question. In this case, the murder of Travis Alexander. 50 percent of the story should be the murder, and 25 percent after -- it`s called 25-50-25. This is indicative of an honest person`s story. What do we have with Jodi arias? We don`t have that.
We have 80 percent before the murder, 80 percent before. It`s supposed to be 25. Then the murder itself, it`s supposed to be 50. What do we have? Two percent of her story, 2 percent. Then after, we`re supposed to have 25 percent, we only have 8 percent.
This is a big red flag, Dr. Drew, that Jodi Arias is lying, period.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, I`m going to have Mark, let me bring you into that. Could you say -- first of all, do you agree with what Janine is saying, and, secondly, could the defense attorneys be manipulating how she tells the story to the point that it looks like a lie?
BARON: Yes.
EIGLARSH: First of all, I think that what Janine is saying, very fascinating stuff. The defense, what`s interesting is they`ve trained her, they`ve worked for years, and you`ll notice they`re not objecting. There is a reason why they`re not objecting to any of these questions which are objectionable. I mean, he`s arguing. They could jump up.
The reason why they`re not is because they`re not being hurt, they`re actually being helped. What I would do is I would tell him -- listen, calm down. You`re very up tight. Relax for a second.
Focus on three things. It`s what jurors look at to find reasonable doubt. Focus on how her story makes no sense itself.
Secondly, focus on the lack of evidence that supports her story. There is not supporting evidence. Most is just from her mouth, a lying mouth.
And finally, focus on the conflicts in the evidence. If she claims, for example, that she jumped up in his closet to reach for his gun, then show the photograph of the clothing not being disturbed at all. It`s perfectly laid out. That is inconsistent with what she`s suggesting.
DRIVER: And, Mark, if I can chime in, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Hang on, I got to -- I got to go to a break here, Janine, but I want to paraphrase Mark, which is he likes that 25-50-25 sort of equation to determine if someone is lying, but for you, when the story makes absolutely no sense, you figure she`s lying.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: OK.
Next up, I`ve got Jodi`s former date. Abe is back to finish business. We still didn`t get to him because we had technical problems last night. He`s going to tell us about Gus and give us some insight into Jodi, the Jodi he knows and a performance on the stand.
And later, my jury saw an interesting show in court today. They`re going to tell you what it felt like in the room. I think you`ll be kind of surprised. It`s really apparently quite vivid and quite intense.
Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: That night, ma`am, listen to my question -- that night, did you see Mr. Alexander inside that house, yes or no?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And inside that house, there was a female, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: You were able to see that they were making out, right?
ARIAS: Oh, yes, they were.
MARTINEZ: And so, is that a yes? They were making out, right?
ARIAS: Yes. Mmmm-hmm.
MARTINEZ: Is that yes?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Her brassiere was off, is that right?
ARIAS: I did not see that. I just saw she rehook her bra.
MARTINEZ: Pardon?
ARIAS: I didn`t see it all the way off.
MARTINEZ: You indicated you saw her rehooking the brassiere on, right?
ARIAS: Yes, she was rehooking it.
MARTINEZ: As a result of that, you decided to go talk to Mr. Alexander about it, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What in the world gave you the right? Why in the world would you even care what he was doing?
ARIAS: Because he was trying to court me back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason you did was because you were jealous, right?
ARIAS: No.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Was Jodi that jealous ex who would just, oh, viciously murder a man who had the temerity to try to break up with her. As we promised, Abe Abdelhadi who dated Jodi briefly is back. Technically, she was kept us from talking to Abe about Gus, Jodi`s former mentor. So, that was last night. So, I`m going to show you tonight what Gus said on our show, Abe, and then, you`re going to ring in on this. Laurie, sit tight. Here we go. Yes. Gus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Did she tell you, Travis is dead, I`m devastated?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I got a call at 3:30 in the morning. It was Jodi, and she was crying hysterically. And I said, what`s the matter? She said, Travis is dead. I said, where are you? She said Northern California. Well, at this point, I know, he`s in Arizona, she`s in Northern California, so someone obviously notified her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Abe, what I told Gus that there are people out there that dispute his claim that Jodi told him Travis was dead, his retort to me was, how would they know what I heard? What do you know?
VOICE OF ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Well, I know what he told me he heard, which is, you know, the next best thing to being there. The weekend that she was arrested, he had approached me and had said something to the effect of, it looks like our friend is in trouble. So, I asked which friend because I didn`t know he knew anything about my business.
He then told me that she called him that night -- this was true. What he said to me was that she was frantic and long story short, she told him, (INAUDIBLE) Travis in a couple of days. She was concerned something may had happened to him and she was hysterical. The nature of conversation after that, you know, was him like calming her down and like everything was going to be OK, and then that was it.
It didn`t seem like, you know, he was frantic or what have you. He didn`t know that Travis was dead. She didn`t tell him, according to him, that Travis was dead. And this is what he told me that weekend of 17th of July, 18th of July, because we were at our training our team retreat. So, for him to have the gall (ph) would say that she told him he was dead and then sit on the information for five weeks and not ever called the police when we found out how he died, it wasn`t like he, you know, crashed his car delivering a pizza.
So, it`s widely insulting to anybody with any intelligence at all to think that this is either in the gravitational pull at the truth.
LAURA BARON, RELATIONSHIP COACH: Could this just be a little he said- she said, though?
ABDELHADI: It could be, but I know what I heard. And he want to tell me what he said after the fact, and nothing that he did afterwards makes any sense if you`re looking -- we all know how he died. If you were in our business in the summer of 2008, this is like the JFK assassination, and Gus, like he talked about how he`s in the upper echelons of the company, certainly knows that Travis was killed and knows that he didn`t just die.
And just oh -- and what a coincidence that Jodi would call him that night and say that he was dead and then not do anything about it for five whole weeks, if ever. And then, finally, decide to call the prosecution after I give them the number in September of 2008. So, none of this behavior is normal behavior. OK. We can do this -- T-ball thing, no.
PINSKY: Abe, what did you think of Jodi on the stand today? You know, is that sort of contemptuousness, something more that -- of what you`re accustomed to?
ABDELHADI: Absolutely. I was jumping up and down in my frustration. Absolutely. This is who she is, right down to the giggling and smirking, the passive-aggressive, trying to get the exact meaning of a question when the guy asked a straight question like 90 million times. This is exactly who she is. This is the kind of frustration that I`m sure Travis was dealing with.
It`s the small taste that I got watching her today. She just took that whole little Quaker Oats act that she did for eight days, rather, and just shot it with a nuclear bomb. I could not be more excited, although, I was tearing a little hair out I have left.
PINSKY: And Abe, you had a theory about the picture of Travis in the shower looking at the camera. Tell us about that theory.
ABDELHADI: Well, it`s a theory. I can`t prove it, obviously. You now, unfortunately, I wasn`t there. He didn`t look normal. Those pictures didn`t look like they were posed, GQ, a couple being sexy. They looked like he was under duress. And I think what happened was, obviously, she was dressed when she`s dragging his body with the pant leg on or the sweats on. So, I`m thinking those pictures, especially the one where he`s looking straight at us, his eyes are red.
People say, oh, he was in the shower. And you know, not to give too much information, but I shave in the shower. And ever since someone told me he`s in the shower, I`m looking in myself in the mirror in the shower. I`m not -- my eyes aren`t red. I`m just a wet guy in the shower. So, I`m thinking she didn`t have the conversation --
PINSKY: Do you think what, go ahead?
ABDELHADI: She didn`t have a conversation that she wanted to have with him so plan B went into effect. She went back into the shower with the gun, made him pose for those pictures under duress. I think that last shot of him looking straight into the camera is him upset. And then she makes him stand with his hands to the wall and then she goes to work on him with a knife. And that`s how it went down here. My opinion, OK? I`m not a professional. I`m just saying.
BARON: Interesting, interesting. Drew, do you believe that?
PINSKY: You know, listen, I don`t know what to believe. And Mark, I`m so confused by all the lying and obfuscation. You know, all I know is -- I`m back to Casey Anthony time when there`s just a liar out there. And I know she`s been lying. Janine, I think you agree we just got a bunch of lies and it`s going to be ultimately up to the jury, Mark, yes?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The difference in this case, however, is this gal chose to do a number of interviews. I watched one today from beginning to end, a 48 hours interview. I would have that ready to go. Every time I asked her a question, I`d say, isn`t it a fact that you told them this, that you had an ideal upbringing?
Isn`t it a fact -- and just one by one by one by one and haven`t ready. He doesn`t seem to have that kind of organization ready to go. Maybe tomorrow he`ll bring something new, but I wasn`t impressed today.
PINSKY: Let`s go to Pam in Tennessee very quickly -- Pam.
PAM, TENNESSEE: Hi, Dr. Drew. If this girl was hooked to a polygraph, it would blow up, to tell you. But, I think the prosecution did a great job because I think he`s confusing them on purpose, and I really believe that the -- do you believe the jurors will be able to look at the past interviews and compare like all the lies she has made?
PINSKY: Yes, I believe that`s what Mark is suggesting. We did hook Jodi up to our human lie detector, Janine, and Janine has given us her pronouncement that she is lying. That`s kind of a weird picture of her. Look at that. What is that from?
OK, guys. I`ve got to take a break. Thank you to Abe. Thank you, Mark Eiglarsh, Alan Jackson. Thank you, guys.
Next up, Travis`s roommate here has something to say about Jodi`s testimony today after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On this page number 20, it says -- read it for me.
ARIAS: It looks like it says, we can fix this. It looks like it says, directly contradicts what I`ve been saying for over a year. It says, you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up what you told my attorney the next day. Interview was excellent. Must talk ASAP. Get down here ASAP and see me before you talk to them again and before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Pretty manipulative. Surprise, surprise. It`s Jodi Arias. She tried to pass jailhouse messages in a magazine. Back with my co-host, Laura Barron. I know. And joining us --
BARON: She never allowed us to see that side of her before, though. It`s like evidence on evidence, sweetie.
PINSKY: Well, I`m sure she -- what did she say at one point? I think it was today. she didn`t want to give people that picture of herself.
BARON: Right.
PINSKY: As though all these selves are different pictures, snapshots, just to govern other people.
BARON: Exactly.
PINSKY: Very bizarre.
BARON: -- picture of 29 --
PINSKY: I`ve got up now psychologist and author of "30-Day Love Detox," Wendy Walsh and Travis Alexander`s roommate, Aaron Dewey. Aaron is back with us. Aaron, still thinking Jodi deserves the death penalty? That was your pronouncement yesterday.
AARON DEWEY, TRAVIS`S ROOMMATE: Still believe it tonight. Nothing that happened in court today has changed my opinion at all.
PINSKY: Now, Wendy, those message were written in two different magazines and passed to her former attorney, Ann Campbell (ph), four days before a hearing in August 2011. I mean, it`s diabolical, right?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s diabolical, but it`s not surprising. I mean, if you were on trial to potentially be given the death penalty, wouldn`t you try to do anything you could to manipulate the system to try to keep yourself alive? I mean, does it indicate that she has this longstanding -- well, we know she lies a lot -- but a longstanding personality defect or is she just -- you know, I`m sure every prisoner tries to find a way to get messages out there, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t know. I thought people should -- I thought you were supposed to play by the rules if you really -- to me --
WALSH: Yes. If you`re going to kill, go in, kill, admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What do you have to hide?
WALSH: If you`re in jail, don`t play by the rules because of how you got there. Maybe you play by the rules, Dr. Drew, and I`m sure you do, but believe me, what goes on in prison populations is not necessarily playing by the rules. That`s why they`re there.
PINSKY: Aaron, I`m curious about what you thought about the cross today where he was talking about her going around behind the house and what right she felt or privilege she felt in doing all that. I mean, this is an adult behaving like a lovesick nine-year-old or 14-year-old.
BARON: Yes.
PINSKY: What was your take on all that?
DEWEY: Well, the first thing that stood out to me in that is, why would she going behind the house, anyway? She said in direct examination that she needed something out of the garage. The side door to the garage was locked, so she thought she would go around to the back. Here`s the problem. Anybody that knew Travis knew the code to get into that garage.
She had been to the house so many times while they were dating, after they broke up. She knew exactly how to get into the garage. She was going around behind the back for some other reason besides trying to get something out of that garage.
PINSKY: Yes. She was going to try to catch him in the act and make a gigantic scene. It`s the drama that everyone was complaining about. Wendy, how do you feel -- a lot of talk we`ve had, so far, this evening about how the prosecution fare with the jury coming out and swinging so hard? What do you think?
WALSH: I think he was a little hard. And I was actually surprised -- I mean, if I`m just watching this as a spectator sporting event now, and I`m not thinking about as a jury person, I`m thinking, wow, Jodi really kind of had some degree of composure and held her on. I`ve never doubted that this young woman is smart. You know, that`s separate from any pathology she may have.
But the way she was able to answer quickly, distinctly, try to get in her own little answers where she could here and there. I was really -- I`m curious to see what`s going to happen in the next few days, if he becomes more aggressive, how long she can withstand it. But, I think he was a little too aggressive. I think she handled it well.
PINSKY: I agree, Wendy. In the beginning, I thought she was going to lose it. And Laura, I actually, in the beginning, the first hour of this, which was pretty withering, I actually felt sort of weirdly bad for her. I felt bad that I felt bad for her, and then, that sort of weird smirk and contempt came in, and I thought, oh, yes. That`s right. That`s what she is. I forgot.
BARON: I did too. I did too. And I also felt really self-conscious that here`s a woman who said that she`s been abused, and I understand she`s a liar, but the fact that she could say she was abused and this prosecutor is so on top of her made me very uncomfortable.
PINSKY: Wendy, she actually made the point that -- she basically was saying, Mr. Prosecutor, you`re abusing me like Travis, like my dad. What do you make of that?
WALSH: Exactly. Well, I think that that`s what she wants the jury to believe, and certainly that was the risk that this attorney took. This prosecutor came out fighting from the beginning, and I think one of your guests earlier said, you know, there`s a lot of adrenaline going on, maybe a little testosterone in that courtroom, and they know that the world is watching.
And you`ve got to leave that behind and just think about those 12 people, because I think those 12 people probably went, wait a minute, is he being hard on this little girl? Let`s see.
BARON: Yes. A bit threatening.
PINSKY: Guys, we are going to next get into exactly that, because I have two people that were in the room, and they say it was quite different and quite palpable than what we all felt from television. It was less -- they`re less ambivalent than the rest of us. Thank you, Aaron Dewey. Thank you Wendy Walsh.
Next up, put the camera back, I`m going to show you something. It`s pop rocks and tootsie pops and pop psychology. So, it`s all about the pop tonight. It`s all about the pop. What did the jurors think about what they heard in court today? We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What factors influenced your having a memory problem?
ARIAS: Usually, when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, that affects your memory problems?
ARIAS: It does. It makes my brain scramble.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for what we call Dr. Drew`s jury. I`m back with my co- host, Laura Baron. Pop rocks and tootsie pops, but a huge rule in court today. Candy in court. I kind of prefer --
BARON: And in your pockets, let`s be honest.
PINSKY: I preferred -- I`ve got a bag of them here. I preferred it to all the explicit stuff we had to be sit through for God knows how long. Joining me is my jurors, Katie Wick and Lora Natase. I believe that`s right. Katie -- now, you guys -- here, you guys saw -- heard something different in court today.
Laura, I`m going to go to you first since we have not really talked to you. Was the prosecutor being too tough and did his style in any way change how the room, including the jury-jury, felt about Jodi?
LORA NATASE, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, first, thanks for having me tonight. I don`t believe that his style was too tough. I think that he was clearly going to -- his theme was to disseminate the whole Travis as abusive because of the pedophile issue. So, that`s why he was focusing on the 21st and 22nd, those texts, and proving her to be a liar also, the fact that her finger hadn`t been broken until the day of the murder. I also thought --
PINSKY: So that -- Katie, so that stuff came across clearly in the room. Those of us watching on TV felt kind of bad for her for a while, but I heard you say that in the room, people really now had -- who had sympathy for Jodi now really don`t. Is that true?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, my gosh, it is so true. And basically, I disagree -- I`m not a lawyer, as almost everybody knows, but as an observer, I think that Martinez, Juan Martinez did an awesome job. He did what he needed to do.
Like Laura said, he attacked -- if you can do away with that issue of pedophilia, therefore, there`s no cause for Jodi to have her finger broken by Travis, therefore, there`s no beginning of abuse, therefore, there`s no justification for killing him. And he`s dismantling this one by one by one.
Will the jury see that? I don`t know. But Dr. Drew, it was interesting today because Jodi said to Juan Martinez, yes, I forget things when people like you and Travis Alexander raise your voice. So, Juan Martinez walked up about five feet from Jodi and he started whispering, like OK, Jodi, is this better?
And there were three jurors that laughed. One juror put his legal pad over his face because he was laughing so hard. I think the jury is sort of taking a liking to Juan Martinez.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
BARON: Oh, that`s so interesting. Janine, is there a question for my jury here that can help you sort of ferret out what the actual jury is experiencing? Are there questions you have for my ladies here that can help us to gain some insight into the jury itself? Go ahead.
JANINE DRIVER, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: I would love to know if your jury is -- what`s going on with -- I call this naval intelligence. We face our belly button towards people we like, admire, and trust.
And I wish I was on the jury because I want to know, is the jury angled towards Jodi Arias? Do they have the core of the body angled towards her or do they have the legs closes to her, crossed on top, angling away, giving her, Dr. Drew, what we call the cold shoulder in my world?
So, this is naval intelligence. What`s your naval intelligence, jury? Are there belly buttons facing and angling Jodi Arias? Are they angling more towards Martinez?
NATASE: There was one that I saw that was angling towards Jodi Arias. Everyone else, I feel as towards Juan Martinez.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Who is the one? Is it a male or female? Tell us about that one.
NATASE: It`s a female.
BARON: Really.
(CROSSTALK)
WICK: Well, today -- there`s a female that a majority of us believe that could throw this off, and she`s probably in her late 30s, and she`s in the middle and she`s in the front, and she`s always forward. She`s always writing notes and somebody said that they actually saw her smiling a few times making eye contact with Jodi.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
NATASE: That juror that you`re talking about, I saw her today two different times shake her head no at Jodi. The first time was when Juan Martinez, when she said to Juan Martinez, I act -- I forget things when people like you and Travis Alexander yell at me, that juror just shook her head like, I don`t believe it.
And then she said -- then when she said -- oh, she said, my mind doesn`t work that way when he said when you`re under a heightened emotional situation, don`t you remember things better? And Jodi said, my mind doesn`t work that way. Again, she had a look on her face and she shook her head no.
PINSKY: I just think it`s strange. Katie, I got to go out, unfortunately, Katie. We`ll be talking to you more, no doubt. I also think it`s interesting that any juror would have --
WICK: Can I ask you a question?
PINSKY: I can`t because I got -- can you do it in ten seconds? Go.
WICK: OK. At the end of the trial, after the jury left the room, Jodi came off the stand. She came up to her defensive team. She looked very nervous. She clasped her throat and she kept rubbing it like this. What do you think that means?
PINSKY: We`ll have to deal with that after the break.
Next, the Oscars and why I love "Silver Lining Playbook." We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Janine, let`s see if we can quickly answer that question. Go right ahead, Janine.
DRIVER: When we cover our throat, Dr. Drew, this is what we have. I called here a neck dimple. This little neck dimple, everyone at home watching your show, just look in your mirror, touch this area. Men and women have them, this little notch here. This is vulnerability. When we don`t want to feel vulnerable, when we feel that we`re losing the battle, we`ll do this.
Imagine your client saying to you, Dr. Drew, no, everything is fine. I`m not suicidal anymore. I`ll be fine. I`ll be here on Monday. It`s dangerous. This says she`s in danger.
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. Do you think she might hurt herself?
DRIVER: I don`t know, but I know this is where she`s feeling, uh-oh, I`m vulnerable. I don`t know if I`m winning right now. I don`t know if I have the upper hand.
PINSKY: Interesting. Got to wrap this up. Janine, thank you so much.
Reminder, the Oscars is on Sunday. Lots of good films up. I`m rooting for "Silver Lining`s Playbook," about a man with mental illness. You saw it, Laura, but it was a really very accurate portrayal of mental illness, and though, it has a rather happy ending, usually, when there`s film or television show where things kind of tie up nicely at the end with complex human behavior or human conditions, I dismiss it.
But this one, I was like, that`s possible. It could end up like that. Now, they might blow up in a few years, but they were engaged in treatment. They were young. They were getting better, and they were in love and the relationship worked out. I say, it`s an accurate, accurate portrayal. What do you say, Laura?
BARON: I loved it. I watched it twice and cried both times. And I just think they are all extraordinary actors in there, too.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARON: Plus, I like a happy ending.
PINSKY: Right. But it really gives you a sense about -- oh, got to go. And "Nancy Grace" now.
END
