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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Jodi Arias on the Hot Seat
Aired February 25, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight Jodi Arias in the hot seat, the prosecution grilling Jodi about the litany of lies she used to cover Travis`s brutal, bloody death and putting huge holes in her claim that Travis sexually and physically abused her. Will the jury buy that Jodi killed in self-defense after all of this? We`ll debate it next.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, is accused murderess Jodi Arias cracking under the relentless attacks of prosecutor Juan Martinez? He tears into Jodi over her diary, showing she never writes anything about Travis hitting her. Does Jodi now regret ever keeping that journal? Is he proving Jodi`s a manipulative, conniving liar and heartless murderer?
Plus, this explosive video of Travis firing a gun, given exclusively to our show by Travis`s friend. Jodi`s defense team was watching our show and now demands that video in open court. Will it blow this case wide open? We`ll debate it with our expert panel and take your calls.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I never killed anyone before.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You lied to a lot of people, right?
ARIAS: Everyone. I just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) something awful happened to me. I was in a strong state of denial.
I`m single. I believe that I knew he was dead.
MARTINEZ: Well, if that`s the furthest thing from your mind, then the closest thing in your mind is the fact that you killed Mr. Alexander, right?
ARIAS: Usually when men like you are screaming at me, it makes my head spin.
MARTINEZ: But you did kiss him, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
MARTINEZ: Knowing that Mr. Alexander was dead, right?
ARIAS: I guess so.
MARTINEZ: You and Mr. Alexander did this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), didn`t you?
ARIAS: Yes. That video didn`t change my hope. It just made that hope unrealistic. It could be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MARTINEZ: You`re calling as the grieving ex-girlfriend, right? Somebody who cares?
ARIAS: It was hurting me to lie.
MARTINEZ: You actually said you`re sorry (UNINTELLIGIBLE), right?
ARIAS: He was trying to court me back.
MARTINEZ: You as her killer, then, are sending these items to her. "He is my best friend in the whole world. It is so unimaginable to live without him."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Jodi Arias under fire. What a difference a day makes. The prosecution turns Jodi`s own words and even her journal entries into weapons against her, trying to shoot down her claims that Travis physically assaulted her.
Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.
The beautiful 32-year-old photographer is accused of stabbing her ex- boyfriend 29 times, slicing Travis Alexander`s throat ear to ear all the way back to the spine and shooting him right in the face. Even though Jodi left horrific wounds, like the ones you see here on the autopsy photos, she`s trying to prove she did it all in self-defense.
Well, the prosecutor finally made Jodi and the jury think about just how excruciatingly painful and violent Travis`s death was when he compared the 29 stab wounds with one of Jodi`s failed suicide attempts, a little nick. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You took a razor, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And you cut yourself, right?
ARIAS: It was a nick.
MARTINEZ: It was a nick. And because it stung so much, that you said, "No, this is not the way for me to go," right? To use your standard, ma`am, of how you stopped because it stung, can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must have hurt, right?
KIRK NURMI, ARIAS`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And then it looks like Jodi makes a half-hearted attempt. There she is, concentrating really hard, "Let me squeeze out a tear or two."
I know I`m being cynical but I wasn`t the only one who felt that was sort of manufactured or contrived. Will the jury buy these waterworks as proof that Jodi only killed in self-defense?
There`s a battle raging, by the way, in open court over this video of Travis Alexander, the victim, at a shooting range. We obtained this video exclusively on this show. The defense clearly watches our show, because now they`re in open court trying to use it and get it. And they say maybe it will help show that Jodi is innocent. That`s not what the friend who gave us the video wants it to prove at all.
I want to hear from you. Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Straight out to our own senior producer, Selin Darkalstanian. Selin, you were inside the courtroom for the fireworks. It was a slug fest. The tears, the yelling, the screaming. Tell us what you saw. And felt.
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, I feel like I just got out of an eight-hour day where I heard Juan Martinez yelling at Jodi Arias the entire day and proving all her lies, one by one, and explaining how each of her lies were -- she was lying on the stand.
Basically on Thursday, we saw a different Jodi. We saw Jodi coming back at Juan Martinez. Everything Juan said, Jodi had attitude. She was smirking, she was smug, she was smiling. She had an answer for everything he was telling her.
But today it was a very different Jodi on the stand. It was a Jodi that was quiet, looking down, not really responding, acting confused, not remembering any dates, not remembering any events that occurred.
And Juan Martinez was just going at it, showing her her own diary entries, showing her her own media interviews, and proving that she was lying on the stand. Every single lie she told, she had a media interview or a journal entry to come back at her with and tell her why she was lying and prove to the jury that this woman is lying on the stand.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`ll show -- we`re going to show all those clips to our viewers. And essentially, he`s trying to erase all of the impressions that she made on the jurors, possibly during her direct, painting yourself as this abused woman who was sexually degraded and physically battered.
The prosecutor, now using Jodi`s own journal entries to show that Travis is not a physical abuser. He points out that Jodi`s diary doesn`t mention anything about being physically abused on the very date where she claims that she was beaten by Travis. Listen to this and then we`re going to debate it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: And it doesn`t say anything there that he backhanded you, does it?
ARIAS: No, of course not.
MARTINEZ: I`m asking you whether or not there`s the appearance, at least, since you didn`t write anything about it in there, that it never happened?
NURMI: Objection, argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Didn`t happen, did it, ma`am?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi being called a liar flat-out. OK, the prosecutor is making the case that this backhanding by Travis, well, if it really happened, wouldn`t it have been in the diary?
Pathological liars are very difficult to corner. But it is a gift -- a gift -- to the prosecution that she took notes during this crucial time period.
Let`s debate it with our expert panel. Two for the prosecution, two for the defense. I will start with Stacey Honowitz. Was this a home run for the prosecutor?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the whole day was a home run, because I think everyone finally got to see, we all thought she was lying, but now we actually had proof that she was lying. Because her own words or lack thereof came back to haunt her.
That`s exactly what a prosecutor wants to see, basically your own words are telling the story. The lack or the omission of saying he was physically abusive is a home run in my eyes, and I think the jury is finally going to see what she`s all about.
And I think her defense team probably spoke to her and told her, "You better calm down," because the smirk, the arrogance, the fact that she was manipulating, the fact that she thought she could get away with challenging the prosecutor, those days are over.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, this journal entry, these journal entries that occur at the very same time that she`s saying that she is being beaten by Travis Alexander, she makes no mention. Is that a home run for the prosecution?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, she`s a victim. She is a woman that is ashamed and abused and in denial herself. And that is not uncommon. And you know that. And the experts will explain that.
HONOWITZ: Oh, lease.
WEINTRAUB: I don`t think this was a home run for the prosecutors at all. As a matter of fact, I don`t think they even got a base hit. And I`ll tell you why.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re taking the diary and buying it...
WEINTRAUB: Jane, I`ll tell you why.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re writing everything that happened, every Frappuccino you buy, somebody smacks you in the car and you don`t say it in your diary?
WEINTRAUB: She admitted -- she admitted she lied, mea culpa, mea culpa. Nothing new came out today. Nothing. Except, he lost his effect by yelling and badgering her constantly.
JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Jayne, let me ask you this. Jayne, let me ask you this. She admitted today that she conformed her statement to police to fit with the forensics that she knew they had. That is not PTSD. That is not battered women`s syndrome. That is a lying killer.
HONOWITZ: She said this on direct already.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evangeline. Evangeline. I`m showing you some of the journal entries there. And these are some of the crucial dates. OK? They cover the dates where she on her direct said, "Oh, he beat me. He did this, that and the other. He backhanded me. He choked me." No mention whatsoever.
WEINTRAUB: Jane, you`re going to put...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me throw this to Evangeline. I mean, to me, she`s not writing that for the Huffington Post. This is a personal -- personal diary that she`s writing. Wouldn`t she include that?
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evangeline, please.
EVANGELINE GOMEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you. She would not necessarily. You know why? Because -- Jane, thank you. She would not necessarily include it, because not everybody who keeps a diary includes everything that happens. I keep a diary.
HONOWITZ: If you`re battered, you are. If you`re battered, you are.
GOMEZ: I don`t record every negative that happens in my day. No, you don`t. No, you don`t.
HONOWITZ: You have so many cases where the person says in their diary, "If I`m ever found dead, it`s because he did it."
GOMEZ: Not every domestic violence victim keeps a diary and puts down the abuse. A lot of them are in denial, and by putting it in words, by communicating it, by writing it, you`re admitting it, and that is the fundamental problem.
HONOWITZ: I think her experts are going to have a very difficult time trying to say that she`s a battered woman based on all the lies, the lack thereof of putting it in her diary. There`s no battered syndrome here. Again, we have to take all -- the totality of all the circumstances.
GOMEZ: Exactly. But the expert will go on and give testimony.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa. OK, Joey Jackson, you`re usually very vocal, but you can`t get a word in edgewise with this crew.
JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I cannot. But I`ll tell you this, Jane. Not only did Juan Martinez hit a home run, I would call it a grand slam. If it were football, it`s a touchdown. Basketball, a three-pointer. Here`s why.
It`s not only the fact that there was an omission in the diary regarding her behavior. She affirmatively stated in the diary that "the reason I have not reported is because there`s nothing noteworthy to report."
What does that tell you? As attorneys, that is all we always want via the jury. That is when we`re picking a jury about common sense. Do not leave your common sense at the door.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
JACKSON: She affirmatively indicated nothing happened.
WEINTRAUB: Jane, we weren`t watching the same trial.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You`re going to have plenty more to debate, because we`re going to play all of the key testimony from today, and it`s a stunner. I mean, really, I feel that it was a game-changer today.
But we`re just getting started. So much to debate. Stay right there. Your calls on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Do you have a problem with memory?
ARIAS: Occasionally.
I don`t remember bringing the gun with me, but I remember throwing it.
There`s a lot of that day that I don`t remember. I have no memory of stabbing him.
NURMI: Do you remember dragging him across the floor?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: What factors influence...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Were you there to tell the truth?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: That wasn`t the truth, was it? That you were there to help them, was it?
ARIAS: No, that was not the truth.
MARTINEZ: Why didn`t you tell the truth?
ARIAS: I was ashamed.
MARTINEZ: You have a problem with the truth, telling the truth, don`t you?
NURMI: Argumentative.
ARIAS: Not typically.
MARTINEZ: You said, no, you hadn`t been there.
ARIAS: That`s right.
MARTINEZ: That`s an absolute lie, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
It was hurting me to lie.
MARTINEZ: Pardon?
ARIAS: It was hurting me to lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHEL: They have established beyond a reasonable doubt, in my opinion, that she is a conniving, manipulative liar. And some of the best evidence against her, her own diary entries and this bizarre interview she gave with "48 Hours."
Now, listen to Jodi explain all the reasons why she decided to smile, grin, in her mug shot when she was arrested.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: One of my first thoughts when I was actually being booked, I was like, wow, I see this stuff on TV all the time. This is so interesting. It`s almost just like it is on TV. And I thought to myself, you know, what would Travis do if he were in this situation? This is why I`m here. And barring the fact that he would not like get himself into such circumstances, he would -- he would be smiling. He would be like, hey, you know. He would flash this grin that he always does. And so there was part of that.
And also part of the fact that I knew it would be all over the Internet, so why not?
And then there was also the fact that I know that I`m innocent and everything will be made known and everything will come out, and in the meantime, smile, say cheese.
MARTINEZ: You have no way of knowing that that`s what he would have done, that he would have smiled, do you?
ARIAS: I have a way of knowing, but it`s more like speculation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Simone, the -- the idea that she says that she`s going to smile and say "cheese" in her mug shot because that`s what the victim, who at the time she`s saying she had nothing to do with his death, that`s what the victim, Travis Alexander, would have done? Smile and say "cheese." It takes it to a diabolical level, something out of a horror movie.
SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST: Yes. I mean, absolutely. She is becoming more and more delusional. And I love what you were saying, Jane, earlier about she`s not writing a diary for the Huffington Post. I was thinking that she was written in her diary is about as real as "Bridget Jones`s Diary." It is all absolute fantasy.
However, that said, Jane, you`re going to hate me for saying this, and I love you, but I`m going to have to say it anyway. If I was a juror, and as a woman, I feel battered, just watching her being abused and being pushed and pushed and pushed. He`s so aggressive. I do think that the jury, the female aspect of it, could feel some sympathy towards her.
And you can see, she is under stress, because she`s there touching her neck so much, which is what people do as a pacifying thing. Because our neck is rich with nerves. We do that when we need to be comforted. So she is showing some kind of emotion.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well let`s remember, she slit Travis Alexander`s neck.
Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session," you`re there in Phoenix. You`ve been in the courtroom. Do you feel that, A, it could break down along gender lines? And are you sensing that maybe this punishing yelling attack by the prosecutor might create an unconscious or conscious sense of sympathy for Jodi?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": No, actually I don`t sense that. I don`t sense that there`s a gender breakdown, but who knows? It`s really hard to read the jury. There are seven women and 11 men, and six of them randomly will be excused just before deliberations.
But, you know, there are some women in the front row who were paying very, very close attention to Juan Martinez, as well as Jodi Arias. Although the woman closest to her, right on the corner, the front row, closest to the witness box, doesn`t really look at Jodi Arias very much now.
There`s still a little bit of note-taking.
But, you know, I do think that Juan Martinez`s theme today, at least in the first half of the day, was to show that her lies to the police, to her friends in June and July of 2008, before the arrest, right after the killing, were for her benefit. Because she doesn`t want to get arrested. And she was ashamed of what she had done. And if he, Juan Martinez, can demonstrate that sufficiently to the jury, he`ll then argue that she lied at lot on the stand to them for her benefit, to save her life, so they won`t find her guilty of first-degree murder. She was an absolute liar about pedophilia.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and look. Right. I mean, she painted a picture of being an abused woman who was battered. She caught him masturbating to pictures of young boys.
And he`s erasing it all by damaging her credibility to the point that somebody decides, perhaps in the jury, the jurors, she`s a pathological liar. Can`t believe a word she says, except that we know she killed Travis Alexander.
What is the defense going to do on their redirect? On the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM: You are right. In the bath, it was hot.
ARIAS: Oh, when we took a bath together? You were amazing. You made me -- seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I wrote them a letter. I don`t know if it will ever make it to them. I don`t know if they`ll even read it, but that`s the only attempt that I`ve made, other than I called his grandmother and, you know, expressed my sympathies to her. And I mailed -- well, I sent flowers to her. I sent her 20 white irises.
And the reason I chose irises was because, when Travis and I were discussing baby names, he said of girls` names, I know he liked the name Iris, short and sweet.
I don`t remember exactly, but I did leave my phone number and I told them that, if they ever need anything, to please call me. And I told them they`re in my prayers now and always.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, expert panel, that`s diabolical out of some kind of crazy, psycho thriller movie, to send irises to the grandmother of the person you killed. And oh, condolences and letters, a long letter, 18 pages, saying, "I`m so sorry." I mean, Evangeline Gomez, criminal defense attorney, that is -- isn`t that psycho behavior?
GOMEZ: Look. If this is all the prosecution has, I really feel for the prosecution, because let me tell you, Jane, this is the issue.
LIEBERMAN: Unbelievable.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let her finish.
GOMEZ: The prosecution has attacked inconsistent and immaterial statements that she has made.
Two, do you see these boxing moves that the prosecutor`s doing in the courtroom? I mean, come on. In addition to the tone in which he`s speaking to her, he is humanizing her in front of the jury.
LIEBERMAN: He...
GOMEZ: And the jury sees that she`s not selfish, she`s not about her. She`s ashamed. She`s embarrassed. And this is important, because they are deciding whether she gets the death penalty or not.
And one thing they need to focus on...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
LIEBERMAN: I can`t believe...
GOMEZ: ... is whether she can be rehabilitated or not. And right now he`s making her look as if she can be rehabilitated.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman.
LIEBERMAN: I can`t believe that you believe any of what you`re saying. I cannot believe that you actually believe anything that you`re saying. Look...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s not attack her, panelists. Let`s talk...
(CROSSTALK)
LIEBERMAN: Mr. Martinez -- let me finish. Let me finish.
GOMEZ: He`s like pebbles, pebbles, pebbles at the window.
LIEBERMAN: Mr. Martinez is speaking for the state of Arizona, and he is speaking for the real victim in this case, Travis Alexander, and he`s giving the jury a clear choice. They can either believe the evidence, or they can believe Jodi Arias. And if they believe Jodi Arias, they have to figure out which of Jodi Arias`s stories to believe. And I think we all know the answer to that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
GOMEZ: She already said on direct that she wasn`t being honest with the detectives.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub.
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: Let me -- let me say this.
First of all, her demeanor was very appropriate today. I`ve tried death penalty cases, and I can tell you that what`s important is her demeanor, how appropriate she is, and the way that she is coming across, if she`s relating to them.
Normally women are harder on women than other women. But I can tell you that this prosecutor, the points that he made today, Jane, he should have gotten in and out. It was to your advantage to lie here, to here and here, to your advantage, like a repetition. Get in and out with the zinger with the knife when she stabbed him and sat down.
The rest of it, it`s losing the effect. And what comes out of it? Jodi Arias on the stand today -- I don`t know if you have the clip -- said, "I don`t know if it was first-degree murder or not." In other words, she`s telling the jury, "I`m accepting responsibility here. Just don`t make it first-degree murder." And I think she might get a taker.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: First of all, I will say that I think the prosecutor got sidetracked several times when he basically lost the forest for the trees.
WEINTRAUB: Like a rabid dog.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she sucked him into a little tit-for-tat, where to the point where I`m taking notes. I`m like, what was the subject again? So we`re going to debate that on the other side. Did she bait him, even as she was meek, much more meek and much more playing sort of the victim, as opposed to the sassy, sassy combatant she was last week? I`ve got to wonder if she watches our show, because we know the defense does.
We`ll talk about that on the other side. So much more to debate. Explosive moments from court today on the other side.
Top of the hour, "NANCY GRACE," 8 p.m. Eastern. She`s breaking it down.
And on the other side, what is this extraordinary video of Travis Alexander shooting a semiautomatic assault-style weapon going to do to this case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You did kiss him, though, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did.
MARTINEZ: Knowing that Mr. Alexander was dead, right?
ARIAS: I guess so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: To use your standard, ma`am, of how you stopped because it stung, can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must have hurt, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Argumentative.
JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I was scared. There are a lot of gaps.
Mortal terror.
Travis flipped out again. He looked at me like a madman.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: Jodi believed that Travis was going to kill her.
MARTINEZ: Why didn`t you tell the truth?
ARIAS: I was ashamed.
I would love to help you in any way I can.
MARTINEZ: You then went even further in saying that it was two people.
ARIAS: I ran. He was still conscious.
I didn`t even know that I shot him.
MARTINEZ: The reason you did that was because it was to your benefit.
ARIAS: I remembered where he kept a gun. So I grabbed it.
DAVE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Every time we go out in the desert shooting, he`s always shooting my guns. I was at his house one week before he was murdered, he did not own a gun.
ARIAS: He was angry at me and he wasn`t going to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: What a slug fest today and by the end of the day, it seemed both the prosecutor and Jodi Arias were exhausted, almost like two fighters who are like hanging on to each other because they`ve slugged it out.
And a lot of people felt that he wore Jodi down and got her to admit at least some inconsistencies in her story especially when it came to her big claim that oh, she went into a black-out when she stabbed him 29 times -- doesn`t remember any of the stabbing and left Travis`s home, driving in the desert, not knowing if he was dead or alive. Listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Didn`t you just tell me previously that you knew that Mr. Alexander was dead.
ARIAS: It`s hard to explain.
MARTINEZ: Ma`am, what is hard to explain about a person breathing or not breathing? What is so difficult -- why is that a difficult concept for you?
ARIAS: Because I`d never killed anyone before.
MARTINEZ: Ok, so because you`d never killed anyone before, then you`re having a problem deciding whether or not the person is dead, right?
ARIAS: I`m having a hard time describing what my state of mind was during that time.
MARTINEZ: What you`re telling us is that you left him to die, didn`t you?
ARIAS: I don`t believe that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the crime scene -- a bloody mess. Jodi claims she doesn`t remember stabbing Travis 29 times. She doesn`t remember slitting his throat. She only remembers accidentally firing a shot as Travis allegedly charged at her. We know from the autopsy that bullet hit Travis in the face.
I want to go back to Simone Bienne, relationship expert. You know a lot about human psychology. She`s claiming she just went into this black- out.
Like I`ve said, I`m going to be 18 years sober in April. I`ve had blackouts, but they usually involved a lot of alcohol. There`s no evidence that anybody was drinking. How the hell did she black out?
SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: I think there could be truth in that in her mind. Because if she feels that she has so much adrenaline or if there was so much adrenaline pumping through her veins, which you would imagine there would be if you are stabbing someone. I keep talking about her murderous rage, if she is so murderous and angry, Jane, then she could have blackouts.
Talking about my own experience when I go back to looking at my abusive relationship, I can`t remember the behaviors and the incidents. I can remember how I was sometimes feeling at the time. So there could be a truth of element to what she`s saying.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely fascinating, and thank you for sharing your personal story. I know that is difficult. I`ve shared my personal stories about sobriety and being a recovery alcoholic. And you`re sharing yours about personal relationships and problems there.
Let`s go to the phone lines. Kerry, Arkansas, your question or thought. Thanks for your patience. Kerry, Arkansas.
KERRY, ARKANSAS (via telephone): Hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
KERRY: Thanks for taking my call.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure.
KERRY: I would like to know, where was Travis`s roommate on the day that Jodi killed him and could she have known that they were going to be gone that day? And also if he had broken her finger on the 22nd of January, why would she even bother, being that she`s left-handed, to be writing in a journal especially to say nothing`s happened, wouldn`t her hand be in pain, wouldn`t her finger be in pain, that she wouldn`t even be picking up a pencil?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, these are two good questions for Beth Karas.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Ok. Yes. Ok. First of all, let me take the second one first. She said today for the first time that I`ve ever heard it, that she`s actually ambidextrous and she can write with both hands though she`s better with her left hand. Before this, she was always left-handed.
Now, regarding the roommates, she may have known the schedule for one of the two roommates, Enrique Cortez. He would come home between 6:00 and 6:30 from work, he`d be gone all day. So she had to get out of there pretty quickly since we know an accidental photo of Travis Alexander dead was at about 5:32. So she had to get out of there within a half hour -- an hour tops. No roommate saw her.
The other roommate, Zach Billings, actually was with his girlfriend. He had been house-sitting with her at her parent`s house. He was home that afternoon according to the police report I read from 3:00 to 4:00 in the afternoon when they were maybe having sex or something. But he was gone until 9:00 that the night. He did get home at 9:00 at night though. Neither roommate knew Travis was dead.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wow -- impressive knowledge of detail, Beth Karas. Our show, by the way, led it front and center in court today. The defense obviously watches this show. Because Jodi`s team demanded a copy of this explosive video that Travis` friend, Dave Hall gave to us exclusively last week.
It clearly shows victim, Travis Alexander shooting an assault-style weapon. Now Dave gave us this video to help his buddy, who can`t speak for himself, to prove that Travis did not own his own gun as Jodi claims because Travis borrowed Dave`s gun to go target practice since he didn`t own one.
Listen to this in court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to what we`ve seen on television through the HLN Network, Mr. Hall provided a video of Mr. Alexander at a shooting range, shooting guns.
SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have any objection to providing a copy of the video to the attorneys?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No objection. That`s fine.
STEPHENS: When can you do that, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today.
MARTINEZ: We would then call him as a rebuttal witness to indicate that Mr. Alexander did not have any hand guns, and that any time they went shooting, he would have to borrow them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s bring our panel back. Is this a disaster for the prosecution, or can they explain that, hey, yes, he went target practice, but he borrowed a friend`s gun? And let`s start with Stacey Honowitz.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: You know what, Jane, this video isn`t going to do anything. I mean certainly the prosecutor is going to call Dave Hall to the stand to testify to everything that he talked about on your show that I`ve been friendly with him. I know him. I have guns. If he had guns, he`d come out to the gun range and shoot with me. That he didn`t own a gun, that`s my gun that he`s shooting.
So whether or not it comes into evidence, it`s really not going to make a difference. It`s not going to make it seem like he`s the aggressor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub, shaking her head?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that it`s fabulous for the defense. I think it has him holding a gun, shooting a gun. It shows him with a predilection towards violence which goes to her fear. I think it`s good for the defense.
HONOWITZ: How is shooting a gun a predilection to violence?
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, how is that a predilection?
HONOWITZ: How does that make you an aggressive person?
WEINTRAUB: He`s shooting. He`s target practicing. He`s got the not- so little gun.
HONOWITZ: A lot of people own guns.
WEINTRAUB: It`s an assault rifle.
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: Really? Is that a handgun for self-protection? Look at that weapon.
HONOWITZ: It was a .25 caliber that she talked about. Not an assault weapon.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I have to say, Dave Hall is the victim`s good buddy and he was trying to help his friend. We like him. He`s been on our show and I know he`s tried to do the right thing by his friend.
But the first time I saw this video, I was like I`m confused a little bit. This has been given to us by a friend of Travis, but then when he explained it, I understood. But yet, I think that it`s tricky and I think that the prosecution is going to make sure -- got to make sure it`s not taken out of context.
More on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: (SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: While we`re working very hard to cover every aspect of the Jodi Arias trial, we`re also working hard on other stories we know you care about. Searches for missing children: Baby Lisa, Baby Ayla, Isabel Celis. We`re going to keep you posted on all the developments in these stories every weeknight here, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. We care about missing kids.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Eight days, tell us all of that stuff?
ARIAS: Yes, I think it was nine days.
MARTINEZ: Ok, nine days. You have a good memory. For nine days, you told us all of that stuff, didn`t you?
ARIAS: Yes. It wasn`t based on my memory. Someone told me nine days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of the most outrageous facts of this case is that after brutally killing Travis Alexander, Jodi drove to Utah and then made out, canoodled -- whatever phrase you want to use with another guy, Ryan Burns. They didn`t have sexual intercourse but they fooled around as it were.
Prosecutor Martinez grilled Jodi about that make-out session and Jodi got into a nearly 3-minute back and forth dispute over details, one tiny detail. Listen to her side track the prosecutor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Your genitalia did not rub against Mr. Burns` genitalia, correct?
ARIAS: That`s correct.
MARTINEZ: But you did get on top of him.
ARIAS: No I got off of him. I fell asleep on top of him.
MARTINEZ: That`s not what I`m asking you. You keep saying "think". I want you to tell me.
ARIAS: No, I got off from being on top of him.
MARTINEZ: If you got off from being on top of him, at some point, you had to be on top of him, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: He also placed his hands between your legs, right?
ARIAS: Not that I recall.
MARTINEZ: You were here when he testified, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: So it could be that he did place his hands between your legs, right?
ARIAS: No. Could be that he was full of crap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This was a classic example of what happened all day long. I take notes during all of the testimony. And I start with what`s the issue? They`re talking about she fooled around with Ryan Burns after she killed Travis Alexander. But what happens is it`s proving my point is that I`m taking notes and notes and notes and I`m like, what are they talking about?
And I think she has, as many pathological liars do, a brilliant ability to side track the conversation and sort of pull him in to these details. Weeds, as it were, so that he`s not getting to the point he wants to make sometimes. Let`s start with Joey Jackson on that.
JACKSON: You know, it is true that he does have a tendency to be in the weeds when we need him to be in the bill boards. But the bottom line here is that if you listen to this cross-examination he ended it with, so you`re saying he`s full of crap. You`re the person who lied to him, you lied to your best friend Miss Udy, you lied to Detective Flores, but it`s him who`s a fibber, not you.
So ultimately, she does have the effect Jane of pulling him off of his game, but he gets there. But if he sticks with the big ticket item and he sticks with his theory, he`ll bring it home and that`s a conviction.
EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He can`t. He can`t. He doesn`t seem to have the skill set to do it. Time and time again we see in this cross-examination --
HONOWITZ: Are you kidding?
(CROSSTALK)
GOMEZ: He can`t keep his eyes on the prize.
HONOWITZ: He doesn`t have the skill set? Is that what you just said?
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Jane, Jane --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Evangeline finish and then we`ll debate it. Evangeline --
GOMEZ: And that is why the cross-examination has been ineffective. He has not been able to deal that knockout punch. It hasn`t happened and it`s not going to happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Stacey Honowitz. Stacey Honowitz.
(CROSSTALK)
HONOWITZ: -- for two days straight, this veteran prosecutor who has no skill set, has been able to extract every single lie that this woman has told. She`s manipulative.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.
HONOWITZ: Her life is built on manipulation.
JACKSON: Order in the court.
HONOWITZ: Her life is built on manipulation. She feels she`s manipulated everybody in her path, she`s going to manipulate this prosecutor to think things her way and it`s not going to work.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman.
HONOWITZ: He`s making his point.
LEIBERMAN: Two things Jane. He`s making his point because he`s also pointing out that she remembers all of these details about all of these mundane things, but when it comes to the big things, she forgets -- that`s number one. Number Two, there are three women on death row in Arizona. Mr. Martinez put one of them there. He has the skill set to try these cases and he`s showing off the skill set.
(CROSSTALK)
GOMEZ: It`s in the cross-examination, that`s all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me make this point. When you`re dealing with a pathological liar, I`ve been told and Beth Karas is actually the one that told me this. That prosecutors jump around a lot because one way to get them off their game and off of their stories is to bounce around.
But if you take his bouncing around, because he`s not going in a linear fashion, and then you add her side tracking him, or getting him into disputes over minutia, sometimes I think he gets lost.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: However, he`s hit a lot of home runs today. But I don`t think he`s just batting a thousand. I think he`s hitting a lot of home runs, but there are times where she just completely co-opts, whatever the conversation is and then you`re like, what, after about two minutes of them going back and forth. That`s how I see it.
We`re going to continue the debate on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: A family home evening starts at 7:00 in the evening, doesn`t it?
ARIAS: I don`t remember. I don`t remember the times. I don`t remember her name. It was five years ago, almost.
I don`t know.
I don`t remember.
I don`t actually remember it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for Pets of the Day, send your pet pics to hlntv.com/jane. Coco Chanel and Rufus -- what a pair; ebony and ivory, I love it. Chewy, you are just a doll. And Richard, Richard`s so regal. Like a king. Nikki, don`t be picky, Nikki. We like your picture.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You are ashamed because you killed him? Is that what it is?
ARIAS: I was definitely ashamed of that, among other thing.
MARTINEZ: You were also ashamed that it would get out that you were the person that did it, right?
ARIAS: Certainly.
MARTINEZ: Your feeling of being ashamed was stronger back then to the point that it overrode your telling the truth, right?
ARIAS: That`s right.
MARTINEZ: And -- but that`s no excuse, is it?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: Nothing that you might have been feeling at that time was an excuse to lie, right?
ARIAS: That`s right.
MARTINEZ: But you still chose to do it, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. This is where, and I`ve been very complimentary to prosecutors Martinez today. I think that he might be going the way of the Casey Anthony prosecutors who, remember, from their opening throughout the entire case hammered away at the fact that Casey Anthony was a pathological liar. Where`s Caylee? Where`s Caylee? Where`s Caylee? Well, Jose Baez pulled the rug out from under them by saying, oh, Caylee drowned and there was no missing child.
So I`m concerned, Simone Bienne, that by hammering in on her lies, that he may be getting off the fairway where he needs to be to get a conviction that he wants, which is the death penalty case.
BIENNE: Yes, you see, I think -- not speaking as a lawyer but looking at the human experience of what is happening here, I think he is making her seem more like a victim. So it can -- we can feel more sympathy with her and, Jane, your point about getting really lost, not having a legal background, I am quite lost in what they`re saying but I`m noticing her reaction.
So as you say, the more he hammers her and talks about her lying, lying, lying, the more it actually gives her the chance to say, yes, I`m so sorry. I`m so sorry. I`m so sorry.
So I don`t know how it`s going to turn out, I really don`t know. I think you can see this through two different lenses. But as a woman I am feeling more sympathy for her even though that may be wrong.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, wow. Ok. Fascinating. It`s always good to get a non-legal perspective and I like your insights. Leroy, Michigan, your question or thought? Leroy?
LEROY, MICHIGAN (via telephone): hi, Jane. My question is this. Travis had a dog, so obviously she must have snuck up on him if the dog didn`t bark if she was there for at least a minute. I have a dog and my dog barks when somebody pulls in my driveway so she had to have snuck up on him. He didn`t notice she was there. She murdered that guy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Leroy, that was a point that struck me, too. At one point she says she comes in and she looks at Travis and he`s on his computer and she`s just staring at him and his dog is on his lap. I have dogs, ok. They react when somebody just appears. So right there I said she`s lying about that. That is a made-up story.
I agree with Leroy.
More on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One word answer, who won, panel? Starting with Jayne Weintraub.
WEINTRAUB: The defense, unquestionably.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey?
HONOWITZ: The prosecution, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evangeline?
GOMEZ: Defense all the way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey Jackson?
JACKSON: Not even close, prosecution.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Jon Leiberman?
LEIBERMAN: Travis won today, the prosecution.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think it was a very strong day for the prosecutor. Listen, when he had a week open, I thought he was screaming and yelling too much, focusing on small details like the fact that she called her sister stupid. Who hasn`t had an argument with a sibling?
Today he really saved his righteous indignation for the big moments and he brought those moments home. Wow. This is the reason you don`t put your client on the stand.
Nancy next.
END
