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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Budget Battle; Cardinal Sin?
Aired February 26, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 here on the East Coast.
And, tonight, 11 days on the stand, each one more twisted and shocking than the last. We're talking about Jodi Arias, accused of murdering her boyfriend, on trial for her life, once again turns the courtroom into basically a XXX theater and paints her dead boyfriend as something out of a horror movie. We will have full reporting on the trial. Jeff Toobin, Mark Geragos break it down for us as well.
Also tonight in the hour ahead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta digging into the diet that could protect you from heart disease. You may have seen headlines about this, the Mediterranean diet. Whether or not it actually works, though, as reported, that's what Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to help us out with tonight.
We begin though tonight "Keeping Them Honest" with the man who, records show, helped dozens of child rapists escape justice. It's all documented in tens of thousands of pages of previously secret personnel files covering 124 accused sexual predators who were shielded from justice under the authority and often with the knowledge of this person.
You might ask yourself is this person now awaiting trial on obstruction of justice charges? Well, the answer is no. This person right now is in Rome getting ready to help select the next pope. He's Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles. And get this. He's complaining about people who are offended and lashing out at the media for reporting on the controversy.
He's tweeting a lot about it, about Pope Benedict's final general audience tomorrow now just hours away. He's tweeting about the nice climate in Rome, mid-50s, he says, during the day, upper 30s at night, great Holy Spirit weather, he says. He's also tweeting and blogging about how unfair people are being to him.
Now, bear in mind this is a man who late last month was stripped of all public duties after being revealed in those secret church documents -- these are church documents -- as someone who protected sexual predators.
In a moment, we will talk to an abuse survivor and get the latest reporting from Christiane Amanpour in Rome, but first Casey Wian with more on the controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Members of a nationwide group of reform-minded Catholics gathered outside the home church of retired Cardinal Roger Mahony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would respectfully ask that you deliver this petition on to Cardinal Mahony, that he recuse himself from the upcoming papal conclave.
WIAN: Nearly 10,000 signatures pleading with the disgraced former head of the Los Angeles Archdiocese not to vote for the next pope.
CHRIS PUMPELLY, CATHOLICS UNITED: His participation in the conclave would only bring clouds of shame in a time that should bring springs of hope.
WIAN: The following day, Cardinal Mahony left for Rome anyway to help choose the next leader of more than a billion Catholics worldwide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May almighty God bless you.
WIAN: Many U.S. Catholics are outraged because recently released court documents show Mahony helped protect accused pedophile priests from law enforcement.
JOELLE CASTEIX, SNAP: His attendance at the conclave is a slap in the face to Catholics and to victims.
WIAN: In the 1980s, Joelle Casteix was abused by a Catholic school teacher. She's now an activist with SNAP, Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
CASTEIX: Here's a man that we now know through these documents that have been released over the past month, for 25 years in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles he covered up for child sexual abuse.
WIAN: Newspaper columnist Michael Fitzgerald was an altar boy in the early '80s for Mahony when he was Stockton, California, bishop.
MICHAEL FITZGERALD, JOURNALIST: It's an issue of moral authority. He flouted the law, so he has no place voting for the church's highest spiritual authority.
WIAN (on camera): But Mahony isn't staying silent. Far from it. On Monday from Rome, he enraged his detractors by blogging this response to the controversy: "I can't recall a time such as now when people tend to be so judgmental and even self-righteous, so quick to accuse, judge and condemn, and often with scant real facts and information."
(voice-over): Mahony also lashed out at the media, saying 24/7 news broadcasts provide little context.
FITZGERALD: He seemed to be comparing himself to the suffering of Jesus, which is the height of megalomaniac self-pity and should be seen for what it is. Jesus didn't deserve to be crucified. Cardinal Mahony brought this public ridicule on himself.
WIAN: Mahony's successor at the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Archbishop Jose Gomez, called the files exposing Mahony's efforts to cover up abuse by priests brutal and painful reading and he stripped Mahony of his public duties, but not his -- quote -- "sacred duty" as cardinal elector of the next pope.
DR. CECIL ROBECK, FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: I don't think there's any question to disqualify him. I think that's a decision that he has the right to make.
WIAN: Mahony's defenders, even some of his critics, praise his work on behalf of the poor.
JORGE-MARIO CABRERA, IMMIGRATION RIGHTS ACTIVIST: As the prince of the church, one of the most important religious figures in the United States within the Catholic Church, Cardinal Mahony gave voice and face to undocumented immigrants. And before him, these voices were silent.
WIAN: Archbishop Gomez, who had earlier excoriated Mahony, wrote to fellow priests later, "I'm confident that Cardinal Mahony's accomplishments and experience in the areas of immigration, social justice, sacred liturgy and the role of the laity in the church will serve the College of Cardinals as well."
CASTEIX: Cardinal Mahony's first obligation was to children. His social justice obligation was to child safety. His immigration obligation was not to send perpetrator priests into immigrant neighborhoods and Spanish-speaking parishes. All of these claims that Cardinal Mahony as being a reformer and those experiences is all tarnished.
WIAN: Mahony though seems to be taking the scathing criticism in stride, offering a tweet from Rome asking, "Anyone interested in loving your enemies or doing good to those who persecute you? See my blog for today. Wow, Jesus is demanding."
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
COOPER: Cardinal Mahony is not the only one who arrives in Rome under a cloud of what has been not just a national, but a global scandal.
Just a few days ago, New York's archbishop, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, was grilled by lawyers for abuse victims for back when he was archbishop of Milwaukee.
And there are others, all of whom will be choosing the next pope.
With us tonight, Christiane Amanpour, host of "AMANPOUR," senior Vatican analyst John Allen, also of "The National Catholic Reporter," and Robert Hoatson, abuse survivor, former priest and currently co- founder and president of Road to Recovery, an organization that counsels fellow survivors.
John, the tone of Cardinal Mahony's blog post, he clearly seems to feel as if he is being persecuted and he says he's praying for those who unfairly are attacking him, and he blames the media. I just want to be clear for viewers who have not been following this closely, according to internal church records, Cardinal Mahony and a top adviser discussed ways to hide the sexual abuse of children from law enforcement for years, preventing police from investigating priests who had admitted to church officials they molested young boys, correct?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, that is correct, Anderson.
I think when Cardinal Mahony argues that he's being unfairly treated, what he means is that while those failures that you're talking about are abundantly documented, he would contend that later on once he became aware of the enormity of this problem he turned the corner and tried to become a reformer.
Some people would suggest that his later years, he moved the Archdiocese of Los Angeles forward significantly. That of course doesn't undue the damages however that are quite clearly made manifest in the tidal wave of documents that the Archdiocese of Los Angeles recently released.
COOPER: Robert, do you think Cardinal Mahony gets it? He's apologized, but does he get it?
ROBERT HOATSON, FORMER PRIEST: No, he doesn't get it. A man of his stature and his reputation should be able to come before the entire public and say, I blew it. I made real serious mistakes, and I'm going to pledge to clean it up.
But, no, unfortunately, it becomes the pity party for priests again, you know, that everybody's attacking the cardinals, everybody's attacking the hierarchy. The hierarchy should be attacked because it was they who masterminded the serial cover-up of children for years and years.
COOPER: Christiane, we were talking yesterday about how the Vatican claims that some of these new scandals or allegations that we're hearing about are really an attempt to influence the selection of the next pope.
Are there any signs that any of this is actually having an impact on the process?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, I don't think so, but I can actually confirm what you just said and what your guests just said, that there is a feeling of being really under siege here by the Vatican.
There's a feeling of being beleaguered. There's a feeling that we're all focusing far too much on these scandals. And there isn't a feeling that we just need to get this out in the open and staunch this wound, if you like.
And certainly today you had victims' groups, victims who came over here and had a press conference and laid out what they would like the Vatican to do to finally make this a fully transparent, accountable and for it to go away and certainly for the next pope to really start making the whole Vatican accountable for all this.
But they have really, really lashed out at all of us and accused us -- well, some of us anyway -- of trying to influence the next conclave and the election. But it's kind of strange, that kind of accusation.
COOPER: It's interesting, Robert, because the accusation by some church officials that the media is focusing too much on this, I actually don't think the media has focused much on this at all over the years. If you report on this a lot, frankly, people kind of turn it off because they feel like, you know what? I have heard about it, I know about it, there's nothing new there.
But the details that have come out, the stuff that Cardinal Mahony is accused of doing is just -- it's shocking.
HOATSON: Yes, no one is to blame for any of this, Anderson, except the hierarchy. They masterminded it. They covered it up. They're now continuing to behave in a way that as if they're the victims. They're not the victims.
And you're right, it has not been covered the way that victims would like it to be covered. But the new pope is going to have to take this bull by the horns and do something real radical, including firing anybody who has covered it up. I was fired, you know, when I was a priest for calling for the resignation of any bishop who has covered up clergy sexual abuse.
I was called into my bishop's office and fired.
COOPER: Have any bishops been fired for covering up sexual abuse?
HOATSON: No. There haven't -- Cardinal Law was the only one who resigned. But, no, no bishop has really been held accountable for this tragedy.
COOPER: Christiane, you covered the election of this pope to become pope. How is it different this time around? I don't think anyone anticipated, certainly not in the Vatican, kind of the allegations, the scandal we have seen in just the last couple weeks.
AMANPOUR: Well, I think in that regard, obviously, it's very different. We didn't have quite this deluge of information 2005 when Pope John Paul died and as we watched the election of Pope Benedict XVI.
Obviously, it had already come out in the United States and there were lots of reports, but it hadn't yet exploded here in Europe. And I'm even talking to Vatican insiders and Vatican watchers who say this may even explode in other parts of the world as well, that it is a bit of a ticking time bomb.
In that regard, it is different. Clearly, the church is really -- they just simply can't believe that all these headlines are happening the very final week of Pope Benedict's reign. So they're desperately trying to get out from under this deluge of bad news and hope at least the next two days are going to be much more devoted to the final religious tasks of Pope Benedict. Tomorrow, he has his final general audience.
They have handed out tens of thousands of tickets. St. Peter's Square behind me is going to be filled. There's going to be the traditional popemobile sort of circular around St. Peter's Square and then the gradual ceremonial steps that are going to be taken before Pope Benedict XVI leaves, but, yes, unprecedented in this way and, of course, because this is a pope who is resigning. It's not like a pope has died. The next pope will be elected with a pope emeritus, as he is going to be called still here, still looking over his shoulder, if he so chooses.
HOATSON: Well, John Allen mentioned that the church should be applauded for its zero-tolerance policy, but that policy is not being followed. There are pedophile priests right now still in ministry. There are many priests in ministry.
I asked to be relieved of my priestly vows last year. And in record time, I was given that dispensation. Now pedophile priests, they're still being coddled, they're still being paid. They're still being treated as if they're still members of the clergy in good standing. So the church still has not confronted the real issues here, the real issues here. People have to be held accountable for what has gone on in this church and they're not being held accountable.
COOPER: Robert, I appreciate you being on with us. Thanks very much.
John Allen and Christiane Amanpour as well, thanks.
ALLEN: Thank you.
COOPER: Let's continue this discussion during the commercial break on Twitter right now. A lot of folks are tweeting about this already, a lot of people saying that Cardinal Mahony should not be part of this conclave. Let me know you what think, @AndersonCooper the Twitter address.
Next, what House Speaker Boehner said about the budget mess that Washington is about to stick us with, it was not let's make a deal, may not even be fit for family viewing, but was he actually speaking the truth? We will take a look at that and we will play it for you. You can decide for yourself. "Raw Politics." Very raw.
Also, we will take you places that are buried in the biggest snowfall in decades. We will tell you who is next in the path of yet another deadly winter storm.
COOPER: "Raw Politics" now.
Just in case you thought your elected representatives were actually working hard to solve the latest budget mess that they made for themselves, well, you just weren't paying attention the other three times. Now many in Washington seem to think is not the time to hammer out a deal to avert Friday night's automatic spending cuts.
Just as in past showdowns, many in Washington seem to think that now is the time for both sides to point fingers or as the speaker of the House did today point fingers and drop an A-bomb.
Dana Bash explains.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It has come to this.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We shouldn't have to move a third bill before the Senate gets off their ass and begins to do something.
BASH: The speaker of the House, who grew up in his father's bar, vs. the Senate majority leader whose mother made ends meet doing launders for brothels in Nevada.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: I was raised in a little town that had 13 brothels in it, so I'm used to some pretty salty language, as you know. I think he should understand who is sitting on their posterior. We're doing our best here to pass something. The speaker is doing nothing to try to pass anything over there.
BASH: That off-color verbal volley took the blame game to a new rather low level as Democrats and Republicans conceded forced spending cuts they created in 2011 with no intention of actually kicking in now almost certainly will starting Friday.
President Obama took his bully pulpit to Norfolk, Virginia, where the White House says across-the-board cuts will force the Navy to cancel maintenance of 11 ships.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That hurts this community. Because of these automatic cuts, about 90,000 Virginians who work for the Department of Defense would be forced to take unpaid leave from their jobs.
BASH: Then rapid-fire warnings of other real-world effects from forced spending cuts.
OBAMA: More than 2,000 college students would lose their financial aid. Delays at airports across the country. Tens of thousands of parents will have to scramble to find child care for their kids.
BASH: Republicans now argue consequences from the country's debt would be worse than $85 billion in spending cuts and they liken the president to Chicken Little.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R), WYOMING: Saying that the sky is falling all in an effort to try to scare Congress and scare the American people into doing what he wants, which is raising taxes.
BASH: That speaks to the heart of the divide. Republicans say no new taxes in any deal to prevent indiscriminate cuts. Democrats want tax increases and spending cuts. It's philosophical and, on this, insurmountable.
REID: Until there is some agreement on revenue, I believe we should just go ahead with the sequester.
COOPER: Well, Dana Bash joins us now.
Dana, salty language aside, let's talk about facts. Depending on who you listen to, if these cuts take place been, it will either be a major catastrophe or not a big deal in the slightest. What is the truth? Are there real effects that people will feel?
BASH: There are definitely real effects because there is little to nothing anybody can do because of the law of the land, that they are across the board.
The question about how much people are going to feel it and how much pain is going to be inflicted on them and then as a consequence on politicians, that really is an open question. And it's one of the things that people here really just aren't sure about. Republicans are banking on the fact that there won't be enough of a public outcry to hurt them politically.
Democrats, as you heard from the president, they're banking on the fact that the opposite will be true. So we're not really sure. One of the problems, I would say politically more for Democrats, is the way that this is structured is that some of these cuts really won't be felt for about a month or so. So it really is too soon to tell. That's the honest answer.
COOPER: All right, Dana, appreciate the reporting.
Just ahead, we're tracking the record-breaking blizzard that's already claimed three lives. It's moving Northeast tonight, pummeling the nation's midsection. Look at those pictures and in places you just don't see snow, Texas, other places. We will get the latest from on how bad it is from Jason Carroll, who is actually on the ground in Illinois.
And later, day 11 on the stand for accused murderer Jodi Arias today -- on what kind of testimony it was today, pop rocks, Tootsie Pops and much, much more. We will explain. Our Randi Kaye was in the courtroom. We will talk ahead.
BLITZER: Welcome back.
The blizzard that pummeled Texas and Oklahoma 24 hours ago is battering the nation's Heartland tonight, Eastern Kansas, Missouri, Illinois now taking the brunt of it. 1.5 feet of snow is expected there. More than 56,000 customers without power right now. Hundreds of flights obviously have been canceled at Chicago's O'Hare Airport.
As the storm moves northeast, we're learning more about the toll that it has taken. At least three people have died that we know about. We have got reporters on the ground following the storm's path tonight.
Here's what Jason Carroll has seen.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Blinding blizzard conditions near whiteout closed highways in several states. Blowing and drifting snow combined with wind gusts up to 60 miles per hour made for treacherous driving.
In Amarillo, people stepped out into this. The storm dumped 19 inches of snow Monday breaking a one day snowfall record that stood for more than a century.
Many here already weary from the last snowstorm which hit the Southern Plains a week ago. The warnings this time all too familiar. Texas under a state of emergency, so too, is Kansas.
GOV. SAM BROWNBACK (R), KANSAS: We're very concerned about this storm. We believe it may be worse than the last one.
CARROLL: A motorist killed as a result of the storm. In Missouri, Kansas City's mayor urging people to stay inside.
SLY JAMES, MAYOR OF KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI: We need our Kansas City citizens to take this seriously and to spread the word and to be off the roads as much as possible.
CARROLL: In Oklahoma, a roof caved in killing one inside.
MATT LEHENBAUER, WOODWARD COUNTY EMERGENCY MANAGER: We did have that collapse, and one individual was found dead at the scene there.
CARROLL: Most of the trouble was on the roads, motorists some stranded for hours as emergency crews tried to reach them, but this is the Midwest and people here have seen and measured much worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we are approaching 6.5 to seven inches of snow. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Wow. Jason Carroll joins me now from Peoria, Illinois.
Jason, right now, the storm, it seems to be headed to the Northeast, right?
CARROLL: That's correct, Anderson.
You're looking at cities like Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago. Those are the cities that are now in the path of the storm. And when the storm does head that way, it might be a different kind of snow than what we experienced here, which was a wetter, gloppier type of snow. In the Panhandle, it was a drier snow. That is what caused many of the whiteout conditions that we saw there.
But even so, the conditions in the Northeast still expected to be very, very bad. Forecasters are telling people to definitely stay off the roads -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, no doubt about that.
Jason, thanks very much.
Coming up, Jodi Arias is back on the stand in her murder trial, the 11th day of her testimony. We will get you the latest on that with Jeff Toobin and Mark Geragos.
COOPER: Coming up in "Crime and Punishment": Jodi Arias is back on the witness stand today, sharing more of the dirty details of her relationship with the man she admits that she killed. The question is, was it self-defense?
It's a death penalty case, the 11th day of testimony that's gripped court observers. We will talk about it with Jeff Toobin and Mark Geragos.
COOPER: More stunning details from the woman accused of murdering her boyfriend. Eleven days of testimony, each more stunning than the last. We're talking about the Jodi Arias murder trial. Jeff Toobin, Mark Geragos join me next.
COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment" tonight, daring deception, dirty details in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Now Arias was on the stand in Arizona again today in the trial that could end in the death penalty if she's convicted in the 2008 stabbing and shooting murder of her ex- boyfriend, Travis Alexander.
Arias has been on the stand for 11 days now. Marathon testimony that has more lurid drama than any case we've heard in a long time.
Remember, Arias has changed her story several times. At first to police she denied even being in the same city on the day that Alexander was murdered. Then she made up an elaborate story about two intruders, home invaders, who killed him and also tried to kill her.
Well, now her story is that she did, indeed, kill him but it was in self-defense, that he was abusive. Today's cross-examination again focused on the details of the couple's sex life. We want to warn you the testimony is graphic, maybe too explicit for some younger viewers. Randi Kaye reports.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Travis Alexander was so dangerous and so abusive to Jodi Arias, then why, prosecutors want to know, was she sending him text messages, calling him an amazing friend and telling him she loved him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Arias, you are still under oath. You understand?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Yes.
KAYE: In court today, she was questioned about one text sent in April 2008, just two months before Arias supposedly killed Alexander in self-defense.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, you've been telling us before that he was mean. Do you remember telling us that?
ARIAS: Yes, he was also that.
MARTINEZ: And you've been telling us that, in addition to being mean, he was somebody that -- who physically abused you, right?
ARIAS: Yes, he did.
MARTINEZ: That doesn't seem to correspond, does it? You've given us two versions, correct?
ARIAS: Of what?
MARTINEZ: Of Mr. Alexander.
KAYE: And the contradictions continued. Prosecutors played clips from Arias' 2008 interview with "48 Hours," where she gushed over Alexander.
ARIAS: He was a light. And he had so many -- he brightened a room when he walked in. He literally brightened the room. It almost seems like the world is a darker place now that he's not in it any more.
KAYE: Again she was asked to explain.
MARTINEZ: According to that particular excerpt in your statement, he was a great guy, right?
MARTINEZ: And he was a great guy, it appears, to everybody that seemed to come in contact with him, correct?
ARIAS: Yes, it appears.
KAYE: And there's more. Why, if Arias was so disgusted after supposedly catching Alexander masturbating to child porn, did she continue to date him and have sex with him? Sex that at times involved Pop Rocks and Tootsie Pops.
MARTINEZ: So you think somebody who masturbates to pictures of little boys is beautiful on the inside, right?
ARIAS: I don't think that aspect of him is beautiful at all. I think it's sickening.
KAYE: Sickening, yet still in court today, even though Arias maintains Alexander abused her, she told the prosecutor he was hard to say no to.
MARTINEZ: In fact the way you described it was that he's somebody that you could not stay away from sexually, right?
ARIAS: Um, yes.
MARTINEZ: And he described you as his kryptonite, right?
MARTINEZ: And so it was a situation that you were mutually attracted, right?
KAYE: On the stand, Arias tried to play down her sexual prowess, but the prosecutor challenged her. Listen.
MARTINEZ: So are you saying that you did that, even though you didn't want to?
MARTINEZ: And did you tell him that?
MARTINEZ: Did you think that he was a mind reader and would know that you didn't want to do that?
MARTINEZ: And one of the things that you said that was kind of striking about that was that when he was performing oral sex on you, that he said -- you said, he sure knew what he was doing. Do you remember saying that on direct examination?
MARTINEZ: Do you remember that?
MARTINEZ: Doesn't it take one to know one?
KAYE: He challenged her again with this.
MARTINEZ: You were the one that had the KY or brought it into the relationship to make it better, right?
ARIAS: To facilitate our activities.
MARTINEZ: Sure. That would make them better if it facilitated your activities, right?
MARTINEZ: And yet you're telling us that, and on the other hand you're telling us, "Well, I felt like a prostitute." Which one is it?
KAYE (on camera): Even during moments like that here in court, Jodi Arias never lost her cool. At times she'd bite her lip, even look to the jury for some sort of approval. And when she didn't like the direction of the questions from the prosecutor, she simply lost her memory.
MARTINEZ: How is it that, if it just happened, you can't even remember what you just said?
ARIAS: I think I'm more focused on your posture and tone and your anger, so it's hard to process the question.
COOPER: Randi Kaye joins me now. I mean, she remembers some very specific details but not others, right?
KAYE: That's right. She doesn't remember taking the gun with her when she left the house that day after the murder, but she remembers tossing it.
She doesn't remember stabbing Travis Alexander 27 times. Yet, she remembers the sound of a knife clinking when it fell to the bathroom tile. And it's all so strange, Anderson.
She remembers so many specific details about her car ride to Mesa the day that she says she killed Alexander, even what she ordered at Starbucks, yet she can't remember the details of the murder when asked by the prosecution.
COOPER: She also does seem to contradict herself. Does anything really stand out to you in terms of that?
KAYE: There's so much to choose from, but the issue, really, of her journal is the big one. The prosecutor went after her, because she never wrote anything negative about Travis Alexander in her journal. And you have to think, if it was so bad with him and he abused her and punched her in the neck, as she says, why wouldn't she have written about that in her journal? In fact she wrote in the journal that she had written -- hadn't written in a while, because there was nothing of interest to report. Sounds like she had plenty to report.
COOPER: Randi, thanks.
Joining me now, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Also criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, co-author of the upcoming book "Mistrial: An Inside Look at How the Criminal Justice System Works and Sometimes Doesn't."
Mark, we saw a lot of this prosecutor in the back and forth between them. You were scoffing at his tactics.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If I wanted to teach a class tomorrow on trial advocacy and how not to cross-examine, I would just have them sit and watch this guy.
GERAGOS: This guy is a clown. What he's doing -- I mean, I'm not in there in the courtroom to watch the jury react. But what has happened here is, I think, a shift in the trial.
I think whatever chance they had of getting the death penalty, if they keep this prosecutor on for another day or so, he's going to turn off everybody on that jury.
JEFF TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's unfair. I mean, look, the prosecutor suffers from an embarrassment of riches. He has so many opportunities to cross-examine her. She has lied so many times about so many subjects.
GERAGOS: Then why is he such a -- why is he so over the top? I mean, the stuff yesterday, I thought, OK, the first day you're up there, you're going to start talking about subpoenaing God and whether she thinks he can subpoena God. Today she got the best of him on at least seven different occasions that I watched.
COOPER: By saying your anger, your posture.
GERAGOS: Your anger, your posture and everything else. Jurors, I'm going to tell you something. Having done a couple of jury trials in my lifetime, jurors are not going to like or embrace what this guy is doing. I think it's ridiculous.
TOOBIN: I can't speak -- I can't speak for the jury. But a certain degree of moral indignation is very much in keeping with the prosecutor's role, especially when you've got a woman who stabbed somebody 27 times and says it's in self-defense. I mean, if you go about a case like that in a passionless way, you know, the jury's going to think that's odd. Now, he may have...
(CROSSTALK) GERAGOS: I'm not talking about -- wait, wait. We're not talking about lack of passion or lack of moral indignation. I'm all for that.
This guy, you know, I don't know him. He might be a very nice husband and father, but so far in the courtroom, he's a buffoon. I've watched him. And I -- I hate to say it and I hate to criticize somebody from 2,000 miles away, but what he is doing as a cross- examination is boilerplate what you should never do.
COOPER: Because he's too demonstrative, because he's belittling of her?
GERAGOS: He's belittling of her in ways that are goofy, I think, in a sense.
COOPER: It would make the jury sympathetic?
GERAGOS: He doesn't -- yes. And I just don't think he needs to be.
I -- I would agree with Jeff. You can be morally indignant. You can mock the hell out of her for 27 times, or 29 times stabbing and shooting and everything else, but this idea of kind of this over-the- top exaggerated mocking of her, I think just isn't going to play well.
COOPER: Why -- we talked about this a little bit yesterday, but why the graphic details about, you know, what sort of jelly they used and why is that being -- this is going on for days and days and days?
TOOBIN: Well, what the prosecutor was trying to show today was, look at all the steps you were taking to enjoy sex with him. You were obviously a very willing participant in sex at the same time you're saying he's abusing you. That's -- that's the theme of those questions.
The question I have about this whole enterprise at this point, the cross-examination, is when do diminishing returns set in? Keeping her on the stand...
GERAGOS: Yesterday. Yesterday.
TOOBIN: Tomorrow will be 12 days. There is a phenomenon that goes on in some trials that, when you see someone for so long, you start to sympathize with them, at least a little bit.
GERAGOS: I think that's -- I think that's exactly what has happened. And that's why this guy has completely...
TOOBIN: That's what the defense wants.
GERAGOS: Right. That's what the defense wants. And this prosecutor is playing right into that.
COOPER: Because they're not trying to get an acquittal. They're -- they're just trying to save her life. GERAGOS: Right. I don't care what anybody is going to say. This is not a defense team that is saying, "We're going to walk her as self-defense."
TOOBIN: No, no.
GERAGOS: That's the vehicle that they're getting all of this information in, but they're looking to save her life. And this prosecutor has just bitten off exactly what they want him to do.
COOPER: The fact that Arias remembers a lot of details but then, you know -- from her past, but then mysteriously can't remember anything about the brutal attack, does that pose a problem for the defense?
TOOBIN: Oh, yes. I mean, you don't think? Of course it does.
GERAGOS: I'll tell you why. Because the way that he was asking it, did you see -- even in your package right there, that didn't even, I think, adequately embrace everything that happened today, you can't even follow the logic of what this guy's doing. I mean, the things that -- there are so many inconsistencies, but the way he's getting into it is ridiculous.
TOOBIN: But -- but it is a common issue with defendants taking the witness stand that they remember facts that are favorable to them, and they don't remember stuff that isn't favorable.
I mean, of course, the key fact in this case is stabbing him 27 times. She doesn't remember that. I mean, give me a break. Who wouldn't remember stabbing someone 27 times? And I think pointing that out is perfectly appropriate...
GERAGOS: I agree. But it's the way that they -- he points it out. And I just think it's -- somebody needs to just pull him aside and tell him sit down. He's -- he's -- he is not helping the prosecution.
COOPER: So where does this go -- how long could she be on the stand for?
TOOBIN: I mean, I guess she could be on till the end of the week. I mean, you know, given how long she testified on direct. She was -- she was ten days on direct, which to me is just absurd.
And it was discussed yesterday, that's because it's a death penalty case. The judge gave her lawyer enormous discretion to let her testify, basically, about anything she wanted.
But having done that, the judge has to give prosecutor discretion to cross-examine for a similarly long time. I think the prosecutor may think -- I mean, he probably should think it's the better part of trial strategy to just sit down and not go on for more days.
COOPER: Do you think... GERAGOS: No, I don't think this guy has any clue. I really don't. I think this guy is just going to keep going and going. He is the Energizer bunny of prosecutors, and he doesn't get it. I don't think he's winning himself any points whatsoever.
COOPER: It's a fascinating case. Appreciate it. Mark Geragos, thanks. Jeff Toobin, as well.
Just ahead, a big new study about the Mediterranean diet. It's getting a lot of attention. The question is: are its results as clear-cut as they've been reporting? Got a lot of headlines yesterday. You may have heard about this. Is it really the best answer for reducing heart disease and saving your life? Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me ahead.
COOPER: Big new medical study has a lot of people talking. For years we've heard about the supposed benefits of a diet rich in olive oil, nuts, fish, fresh fruit and vegetables, known as the Mediterranean diet. Now for the first time, someone has tested it head-to-head against what's supposed to be a standard low-fat diet to see if it's better protecting against heart attacks and strokes. The Mediterranean diet won hands down, at least in the study.
Chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me now. I mean, what do you make of this? Because it feels like every day there's a different fad diet or whatever. We've known for a long time olive oil, beans, legumes, nuts and stuff is good. But I mean, the numbers in this study seem huge.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and this is part of the diet wars. I mean, this has been going on for a long time.
The question they were trying to answer, an important one, is is a Mediterranean diet better than a low-fat diet in terms of reducing heart disease, stroke and lengthening your life? What I'll tell you is we still don't know the answer to this question, because this was not a very good study.
The people who are supposed to be eating a low-fat diet, which some people define as getting less than 10 percent of your calories from fat, they weren't eating anywhere near that. They were eating about 37 percent of their calories from fat.
COOPER: They couldn't stay on the low-fat diet.
GUPTA: They couldn't stay on it. They got a meeting with the nutritionist, and I think the headline may be low-fat diet very hard to stay on. But if the question they were trying to answer, which is better, they didn't answer that here.
COOPER: In terms of the details in this thing, I mean, they were talking about drinking seven glasses of wine a week.
COOPER: Having, like, two or three tablespoons of olive oil...
COOPER: ... almost every day.
GUPTA: Four tablespoons of olive oil a day, more than a handful of various types of nuts: walnut, hazelnuts, things like that. I have some of this down. It's -- it's five times a day of servings of fruit, three times vegetables, and then three times a week of fatty fish like salmon and mackerel.
COOPER: This is not a diet that people are going to lose weight on. I mean, it's not -- that's not the goal, it would seem.
GUPTA: They may eat a lot of calories and not lose weight. But they, you know, from a cardiovascular standpoint, they have healthier blood vessels. That's what they're really looking at.
COOPER: So I've got to say, after you know, hearing this story last night, I had some olive oil last night and I had some red wine. Is that stupid? I mean...
GUPTA: I'm glad that's what you took away.
COOPER: That's what I took away. That was my takeaway on it. I mean, I happen to like olive oil. So you know -- but you know. I mean, do you -- should people, starting today, start on this Mediterranean...
GUPTA: I think Mediterranean diet is a very good diet. We and I both talk about heart disease a lot. I have a goal of making myself heart-attack proof. Not having a heart attack, not dying from that. And I think looking at some of the data, the low-fat diet. Very low fat has a lot of benefit, as well.
There are different kinds of fat. People will say, well, olive oil, how can that be? That's an oil. There's monounsaturated fat and there's polysaturated fat. You don't want as much polysaturated fat, and you want to figure out exactly how many calories from fat you're getting in. Just try and keep the number, you know, low.
COOPER: I've tried to do a low-fat diet for a long time. It's hard...
GUPTA: It's hard.
COOPER: ... to stick to that. You see celebrities on TV talking about it, and you realize, they have a private chef. It's easy for them to do it. But like, for you know, folks who don't, it's really hard.
GUPTA: I think you make a really important point. At the end of the day, doctors tell this to their patients all the time, you've got to do something that you can actually stick with. COOPER: Right.
GUPTA: Whether it be a certain type of diet or activity or whatever it may be. It is an incredibly hard diet to stay on.
COOPER: Yes. And the Mediterranean at least seemed to be kind of an easier diet, because it seems more pleasant.
GUPTA: You get the wine.
COOPER: You get the wine.
GUPTA: All the alcohol and the wine.
COOPER: Yes. Seven glasses.
GUPTA: A week.
COOPER: I know, a week. Sanjay, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
GUPTA: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up, a singer Morrissey, refuses to be on "Jimmy Kimmel Live" because of who the other guests are. It's the most random celebrity feud ever. Next on "The RidicuList."
COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList." And tonight, if you were all psyched up to see Morrissey on "Jimmy Kimmel Live" tonight, I'm sorry. You are out of luck. The singer has canceled his appearance, because the other scheduled guests on tonight's show are cast members from A&E's "Duck Dynasty." Morrissey says he can't morally be on the same program with them.
"Duck Dynasty," as you know, follows a family in the Louisiana bayou that runs a duck caller business. And in case you didn't know, Morrissey is a little bit of a vegetarian, kind of how J.D. Salinger was a little bit of a homebody.
In a statement, Morrissey says, and I quote, "As far as my reputation is concerned, I can't take the risk of being on a show alongside people who, in effect, amount to animal serial killers. If Jimmy cannot dump 'Duck Dynasty,' then we must step away."
I, for one, would have loved to see these two disparate personality forces on "Jimmy Kimmel." For the uninitiated, here's Morrissey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORRISSEY, SINGER (singing): I've been dreaming of a time when to be English is not to be painful.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: And here is "Duck Dynasty".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My idea of happiness is killing things, pow, pow-pow, pow-pow, pow-pow, boom-boom, boom-boom, pow. Boom, pow.
The last thing I would want for my grandkids is they grow up to be nerds.
I might want to go by Wal-Mart and pick you up a personality. You reckon.
Move on, nerds.
Kids in America today are fat, lazy.
The last thing I would want is one of them to come to me and say, "Guess what, Paw-paw, I mean, you know, I've got herpes."
Down here in the south, you explain the birds and bees to your children via the crawfish.
There's their little vagina. There's the little ding-dong. Takes two to tango.
No shoes, no socks. No problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER; Oh, Papaw.
So Morrissey is taking a stand, as he often does, for animal rights. He won't play a concert where any type of meat is being sold in the building. And he had similar parameters for all the interviews he does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, COMEDY CENTRAL'S "THE COLBERT REPORT": You requested, demanded that this building, everyone on staff, that this be a meat-free environment for the day that you are here.
COLBERT: So if I'm a little woozy right now, it's because I haven't had my bacon. Why? Why are you so militant about not only like not you having meat but not even seeing meat?
MORRISSEY: Because animals are nicer than humans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, I guess that's sometimes true. Good thing he doesn't take himself too seriously, though. This being "The Colbert Report," it did not end there, oh, no. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLBERT: What about an animal that's already dead, like a cow that's been sentenced to death for a murder? Or a pig that commits suicide from listening to too many of your songs?
MORRISSEY: You shouldn't laugh at that.
COLBERT: I know a lamb that's a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Could I eat that lamb? Could I eat that lamb?
MORRISSEY: No. I mean, if you -- if you stick your grandmother in an oven, she will probably be tasty, but is that any reason to eat your grandmother?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You see the hilarity you're missing out on, Jimmy Kimmel? There's nothing quite like a good eating-your-grandma story to really get a late-night comedy show going straight to "The RidicuList."
Hey, that does it for us. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.