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Benedict's Last Hours as Pope

Aired February 28, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: It's raining on the outside and on the inside, a day that has not been seen perhaps ever before but at least in 600 years at the Vatican, Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We're looking down at the scene. People are waiting for Pope Benedict XVI to leave the Vatican for the last time as Pope. We're waiting for him to get into a helicopter he's going to go to the summer retreat on Castel Gandolfo where he will again greet people and make his exit as Pope and become Pontiff Emeritus.

And then of course the intrigue will surround who becomes the next head of the Catholic Church.

BURNETT: And they said one interesting thing I thought was he's not going to know before we know. That there is going to be no advance notice given to Pope Benedict about who his successor may be. He will find out as we do from the color of the smoke, which it's supposed to be black or white but often is gray.

CUOMO: So he doesn't vote, he doesn't know and he did say, though, he will have complete obedience. He will be just like the other members of the conclave where obedience will be there and that's important. It's important for him to have said that. I guess it's assumed in the rules, but it was important because this is all new and we don't know what it means to have two living popes.

So these are the types of gestures I think that Pope Benedict right now wants to make very clear that the church is ok with this resignation. That he will be obedient, just to give a sense of normalcy.

BURNETT: Right it's a key point. And Cardinal Timothy Dolan was just talking to our Christiane Amanpour, it was a fantastic interview. But one of the things Chris that he said, he kept talking about how he was frail and that he had seen him and always thought of him as spry to use Cardinal Dolan's word and now he sees how frail he is. Now adding to the -- obviously the reason that he said he's leaving which is because he's old and he's no longer able to handle --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's right.

BURNETT: The day-to-day requirements of the job so. CUOMO: Those are the Swiss Guard, right? Those are the costumes that we love to look for.

BURNETT: Yes.

CUOMO: They are waiting. That's the first sign. Now they'll be important today also symbolically because when the Pope gets in the helicopter, goes to the Castel Gandolfo and then makes his last round of goodbyes, they will leave. And when they leave Castel Gandolfo that is the outward, official, symbolic sign that they are no longer protecting him as Pope.

He will have security, of course, but they will then begin to wait just like the rest of us for the conclave and the selection of the new man that they will protect.

BURNETT: And that is the helicopter we expect in just under 15 minutes or so, that's what Chris and I have been told, that he's going to be getting in that helicopter and heading for Castel Gandolfo.

So in the meantime let's bring in Monsignor Kevin Irwin, a professor of theology at Catholic University of Life in Vatican City. John Allen is also with us, our senior Vatican analyst and senior correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter. Monsignor Richard Hilgartner of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is with us along with our contributor and host of the Sunday mass, Father Edward Beck, someone Chris has known for a very long time, I know. And Melinda Henneberger joins us from the "Washington Post."

So thanks to all of you we really appreciate it. But Father Beck, you're next to me so let me start with you. How -- how special and significant is this moment? This moment now that we have never seen before?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's unprecedented. And we're living history and I think that's what makes it so special to us. That interview with Cardinal Dolan was very interesting to me. When he called himself a rookie, he's never been in a conclave before. The last conclave in 2005, there were only two who had ever been in a conclave before. Cardinal Baum. And do you know the other one?

CUOMO: Ratzinger.

BECK: Exactly.

CUOMO: That was strong.

BURNETT: That's a curse, Chris.

BECK: This conclave, 50 of them have been through it before. So, you see, they know what to expect. At least half of them have been through this before. Last time was very different because the papacy of John Paul II was so long. But this time it's going to be a little bit different. And the history of how this conclave will play out is going to be all new.

CUOMO: Well let's bring John Allen. John Allen, can you hear me from Rome?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I can.

CUOMO: All right, John, great. Great to have you. By the way, in case you didn't hear it for yourself, Cardinal Dolan gave you a shout- out in his interview, saying that you were closest to what the reckonings of the Vatican --

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: Yes well and I agree with your assessment, it was a fantastic interview.

CUOMO: He was spot-on about that, we know that much. John, let me ask you. The obvious intrigue is, of course, this is different what's happening with Pope Benedict we keep saying it, not since 600 years. But how do you think that may translate and how to this process will be different. How will the difference carry through to the general congregations, the conclave, the selections, the choice is going to -- is this going to be new in many different ways?

ALLEN: Yes, I've actually done a column for the paper laying out ten different ways that this thing is in contrast to the last conclave in 2005. I won't try to trot out all ten here, but let me give you the most obvious. The most obvious is that this conclave is not happening after the death of a Pope but rather after the resignation.

And you will remember from 2005, I of course, was here watching it play out from the front row. You had that estimated five million mourners that washed through the streets of Rome in those days -- this enormous global outpouring of grief and affection and love and tribute to John Paul II. The overwhelming belief among the cardinals that filed into the Sistine Chapel back in 2005 was that they had just seen the end of a massively successful papacy and so the logic was fairly simple, they wanted continuity.

And of course Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who was then the intellectual architect of that papacy seemed an obvious choice. This time there is no such obvious front runner and no simple, single, overriding issue that's driving the reflection, which is why a lot of us on this (inaudible) believe this -- this conclave may be a little bit more complex and it may take a little bit longer for the cardinals to reach consensus.

CUOMO: All right. All right, John, let's come back here to New York for a second. Melinda, let me ask you, when you're looking at this from the outside, other than the timing which you know I'm completely obsessed with when things are going to happen, that's mainly because I have to figure out when I have to get to Rome, but when we're looking at what might be different this time, that's the excitement, right? And how this may create --

MELINDA HENNENBERGER, "WASHINGTON POST": Right, sure.

CUOMO: What are you looking at from the outside? What do you think the possibilities here are? And are we being too excited? HENNEBERGER: In terms of the candidates or in terms of what we're going to see going forward?

CUOMO: Because Pope Benedict has created precedent here by saying "I'm resigning, this is the best thing for the church". Will that idea, what's best for the church, mean something new as well in the selection of who they pick, what they want?

HENNEBERGER: Well, I think this moment will have -- all elections happen in a very special moment and the papal election is no different in that way in that I think people going forward have seen as Benedict himself has said, "The rocky seas, sometimes it almost seemed like the Lord was asleep." I thought that was a very poignant thing for Benedict to say.

So I think that one of the main criticisms of Benedict during his time as Pope has been that he was not very strong on the administrative side, that a lot of the problems were really a result of -- he actually tried to do a number of reforms on the administrative managerial side, I would say, that went nowhere and he was not seen as a stronger administrator. So I think that's something that's going to have to be very strong.

BURNETT: Right.

HENNEBERGER: The last two popes, as I think John said, John Allen, were chosen. They were the smartest guys in the room very, very deep intellectuals. I actually had dinner last night with someone whose college theology professor was Joseph Ratzinger.

CUOMO: Pope Benedict.

BURNETT: Yes.

HENNEBERGER: Yes, but back when he was Joseph Ratzinger. And they were saying that could -- he was so smart, he could go around the room, take 20 different questions in a row, remember them and then answer. So he'd take the 20 questions and then remember them all and answer one by one.

CUOMO: That's impressive.

HENNEBERGER: So, you know, here's a guy who to feel some kind of intellectual dimming for him is a huge thing.

BURNETT: Right.

HENNEBERGER: I think that as they're looking for what qualities they want in the next pope, they may not go toward a third super brilliant theologian. They may instead feel that the renewal -- one of the renewals that's need is on the administrative managerial side.

BURNETT: All right.

CUOMO: That will be one of the big questions.

BURNETT: It is. And when we look through the people who are -- are in the, quote/unquote, "running" the Papabile --

CUOMO: the Papa -- yes how are we saying it? Papabile.

BURNETT: I don't know you're the one, you're the Italian American here.

CUOMO: I'll go with Papabile.

BURNETT: I'm the Irish Catholic here.

CUOMO: You said it wrong.

BURNETT: We're going to be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Thousands gathering. This is the moment -- this is the moment we've been talking about for weeks now. Pope Benedict is saying his farewell unprecedented in 600 years. People are gathering to see the Pope leave while still alive. What will that mean for the church? All these questions remain unanswered.

One thing is sure right now, excitement. People have never seen this before, they don't know what it's going to mean. He will be leaving, the Pope, very shortly. We're going to follow it here live, obviously. He'll get in the helicopter and go to papal retreat Castel Gandolfo then he'll make his final farewell as pope. And then all that follows, a complete mystery. We know the crowds are gathering right now.

Jim Bittermann, you're out there among the people. What is the mood?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I am, Chris and Erin. In fact this is the first time today we've seen crowds. Yesterday was the big day for the public out here but now there are thousands of people gathering here. They want to get a glimpse of that papal helicopter as it goes. And kind of typical among those people that are out here are the faithful like Anna Fleitschner (ph) here, a Polish lady.

I'm going to have to tell you about her story because she doesn't speak English but she has a -- she has a son in the Vatican who's in the seminary there. She's been trying for weeks to get for a friend of hers an apostolic blessing signed by the Pope and today finally she was here for 7:00 mass this morning, she's been here all day and finally this afternoon she got an apostolic blessing signed by Pope Benedict XVI on the last day of his reign.

And that's really quite a souvenir, I would think -- Chris, Erin.

BURNETT: It's certainly is a souvenir.

CUOMO: And also a good reminder how all these people come from all over the world, Erin. You know she's from Poland.

BURNETT: And it may -- you know remember just when you talk about the celebration of what's happening and of his life, remember when he came to the United States.

CUOMO: Sure.

BURNETT: And you know people tend to think well you know how -- how religious is the United States. How is the statistics show that it is, but people just were overwhelmingly excited and turning out to see the pope and having that opportunity.

But it is a once-in-a-lifetime thing so for many.

CUOMO: When he visited the Capitol I was down there and people were coming out. Because as his procession went by.

BURNETT: Right.

CUOMO: I was like you know maybe 30 feet away.

BURNETT: Wow.

CUOMO: But because I was 30 feet away, people were coming up and grabbing on to my arm and saying you were so close, you were so close.

BURNETT: They wanted to touch you because you were --

CUOMO: Yes I and then I couldn't -- I couldn't follow the shot. I wound up missing my shot because these people were literally holding me where I was. So it was a great day for them but it's terrible for me.

BURNETT: And you know this is actually what Chris says makes me think of something. When you look at the growth of Catholics in the United States, there's been a surge, 70 percent growth since 1965. And I know a lot of that is immigration, especially from Latin America.

But at the same time you've seen a more than 30 percent drop in priests in this country. You've seen a 70 percent drop in nuns. Should this be on the table, this conversation of what it takes to get more people actually involved in being Catholics or practicing as Catholics?

MSGR. RICHARD HILGARTNER, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: It absolutely is. Cardinal Dolan's interview earlier spoke of the Synod that met last year on the new Evangelization --

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Yes.

HILGARTNER: -- which is really about trying to reinvigorate the faith. For people who already claim to be Catholic but maybe are not as zealous or enthusiastic about that faith or really living the faith and having it make a difference in their lives.

And when we talk about vocations to priesthood, religious life, service within the church, doing good really has to do with engaging what we believe at a level that it affects our lives. BURNETT: So do they need to deal, though with the issue, Father Beck, of -- there's women priests they have to deal with. There's celibacy but there's also homosexuality. And when you look at this country, it seems to be going in the direction of more people supporting gay marriage.

There's a lot of people who don't. But you know, this current Pope has referred to Catholic doctrine as saying that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, he used that word twice from doctrine in the past 20 years. Do they need to address that issue directly?

BECK: Certainly they talk about homosexuality. Whether you mean address it, change the teaching on it, I'm not sure that's going to happen any time soon. Interestingly in Cardinal Dolan's interview Christiane asked about married clergy and she said to him, "Well, why not? Can we at least talk about it?" He goes "We can talk about it but I don't think it's going to change."

Well, that is probably a pressing issue because the married clergy, some people are saying that those things are related. They're not necessarily -- celibacy and homosexuality of course, are not related but the married clergy issue for many people, they want to at least talk about it.

BURNETT: That's why we're not seeing as many priests. I mean that's got to be a part of the reason. I mean as a --

BECK: Except if you look at the Anglican church and other traditions who have married clergy, they're not exactly bursting at the seams either. So it's not going to be a panacea to solve that --

(CROSSTALK)

HENNEBERGER: There are Catholic married priests we don't hear about very often who used to be Anglican priests --

BURNETT: When they switched over and they're allowed.

HENNEBERGER: -- and when they convert to Catholicism and I think a lot of people rightly or wrongly believe that that is the foot in the door since we have practicing married Catholic priests, even though we don't talk about it too often.

CUOMO: Monsignor Irwin, can you hear me? You're in Rome?

MSGR. KEVIN IRWIN, PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY, CATHOLIC UNIV: Yes, I can.

CUMO: All right Monsignor. It's good to have you with us. Thanks for being here.

Let me ask you this. The pope resigning is new, it's novel. Could he be doing the church a favor, not just in terms of his own alleged capacity, but that he is creating an opportunity for newness, an opportunity to rethink standards? What do you think of that?

IRWIN: I think two things. One, he's made a contribution already in a sense of inviting his cardinals and bishops to be a bit more collegial. And I think he inherited a papacy that was much larger than life. I think in one way Benedict has kind of lowered that a little bit.

Number two, it might be the papacy entering the modern world where people do retire and move on and I think in that sense all bets are off about the age of the new pope.

CUOMO: It's interesting. When this broke as news, at least in the U.S., the perception was almost 100 percent negative. There must be a scandal, he must be tied to something, it must be vatileaks. It must be -- and then there was other speculation that had to do with homosexuality and different types of extortion.

However, when I saw it, at first blush it was, wow, what an opportunity for the Catholic Church because accepting the Pope at his own word and there being no factual basis for any other suggestion at this point, he's saying it doesn't work for me right now and I'm going to do what I think is best.

He then says this morning, in traditional papal mysterious language, the church is not of this world but it must see what the world is and we must understand our place in the world. You could look at it two ways, but maybe this is, Father Beck, a catalyst where it's not just heresy, it's not just unheard of, but he's saying do it differently.

BECK: And the other thing is people talk about his legacy. His legacy is his resignation. That's what people will remember about Benedict. Who do you know today in our world who has absolute power who relinquishes it voluntarily and walks off into the sunset?

He is saying for the good of the church, it's not about me, it's not my selfish need to be the one in charge and power, I'm going to walk away from this so that something else can flourish. I think that's the remarkable thing about Benedict. That's what he'll be remembered for, the resignation.

BURNETT: Pretty incredible way of putting.

CUOMO: Very WWJD, you know. What would Jesus do?

BECK: Exactly.

CUOMO: What (inaudible)

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Interesting, what would Joseph Ratzinger do?

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: All right. I want to go to Castel Gandolfo. Chris has been talking about. This is the summer residence of the pope. It's prepared for him to go there today. It's about 15 miles away from the Vatican. He's going to be getting on the helicopter and flying there and then he will give his final address as Pope. Becky Anderson is there for us. Becky, of course, it's going to be a celebration there. There will be some sadness too. We were talking about how, though, the people who were arriving there to see the Pope would be having torches, things like that. Tell us what you're seeing right now.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a remarkable atmosphere here. Let me just get the cameraman to open up so you can just see the crowd here.

The square in front of Castel Gandolfo is absolutely packed. There are about 10,000 people here. They are local residents and they have been praying the rosary for the past ten or 15 minutes. The Pope will depart the Vatican in ten minutes or so and will arrive here at Castel Gandolfo at 5:15 local time -- less than half an hour from now.

And it was quite a party atmosphere ahead of this but now a very quiet and very reflective time here for those who have such an association with the papacy. Castel Gandolfo, of course, has been the summer residence for popes over the last 400 years. Get out of the heat of Rome and come here in the summer. It is the most remarkably beautiful picturesque setting with a lake to my right-hand side.

And this is where Pope Benedict will make his last speech, say his last words. They are unscripted. We are told he will do that from that window just behind me. You can see, there it's set up for his arrival.

And then a couple of hours after that, at 8:00 local time, the door behind me will close shut and the papal guards, the papal body guards, the Swiss guards who have looked after the pope over centuries will abandon him. They'll go back inside and that will mark the end of Pope Benedict's papacy and the beginning of his retirement -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right, Becky. Just -- it is incredible to imagine. I mean this place which for 400 years -- and for so many, Chris, sometimes I think about it as someone who was raised Catholic and I know a lot of people who are still practicing and a lot of people who don't anymore because they have issues, whether it be with the abuse scandal or other things.

But one thing that they all love is the fact that you get the same smells, you get the same feeling when you go into churches and that is like a security blanket for people. It's something that they need and that they yearn for, even though they may be deeply frustrated with the church and not want to be a part of it anymore.

CUOMO: I think you're right. I think it's one of the transcendent mysteries in our culture in general. Whether you have problems with the church as a Catholic or whether you're agnostic or you're of different faith, there's something about Catholicism that inspires notice.

And maybe it's his historical presence, maybe it's the power, maybe it's the stage of the pope as pretty much the only uniform-recognized supreme religious leader, you know. But it is something to behold and there is curiosity about it.

And now with what pope Benedict has done, it is so unprecedented, it could mean so many different things for this church that it builds excitement. And for those of you who are just coming to us right now, you're looking at the scene there in Rome waiting for Pope Benedict to come, to board a helicopter. It's supposed to happen any minute now. We're actually running a little late.

BURNETT: Yes.

CUOMO: It's supposed to be early. But on your last day maybe you milk it a little bit. Maybe you milk a little.

Father Beck, we have a whole panel with us here. Father Beck, what do you make of the moment?

BECK: Can I tell you my fantasy? A little known fact --

BURNETT: Hold on. Just before you get started, I just want to say -- obviously you see the Pope here getting ready to come out.

His farewell, he's going on the journey.

CUOMO: He's brought in the holy spirit, the holy spirit will be with us and certainly we all need prayers going forward.

That's what they're saying in Italian. Obviously, there's Pope Benedict. He's saying his final goodbyes to the Curia staff, the ruling body within the Vatican. And he is making his way to a helicopter that will take him to Castel Gandolfo and this is his final day as we watch him there in Rome. Pope Benedict.

What were you saying, Father Beck, what is your fantasy? I believe it's related to this?

BECK: Little known fact is he's never had a driver's license. Doesn't drive a car. But he has a pilot's license. He has piloted a helicopter. He has been known to fly from the Vatican.

BURNETT: He himself?

BECK: Yes. To Castel Gandolfo. I would love to see him sit behind those controls.

CUOMO: Are you sure about that?

BECK: The Catholic News Agency reports it, so I trust it.

CUOMO: If Pope Benedict right now --

BECK: Wouldn't that be great?

CUOMO: After saying that he is too frail to carry on as Pope jumps into that massive helicopter and pilots it out --

BECK: I've been dreaming about it. It's not going to happen but I think it's great.

CUOMO: I hope he doesn't if he's as frail as he says he is. We don't want that. We see him walking with a cane. That's not the papal mitre, you know. It's not like he has to have that. It's something he feels he needs at this time. But he's making his way, Melinda.

HENNEBERGER: You know, you were saying earlier that it was almost completely seen as a negative in the American press and from American eyes when he announced this. And I so agree with what you said that it really was his greatest -- maybe his greatest gift to us to give us this very modernizing view of popes living longer and the reality that, you know, among other things, being pope is a job. And there comes a moment when you can no longer do the required, you know, aspects of the job. And I think that he has told us from the beginning that he would do that.

CUOMO: Now we see it. This is the moment we've been waiting for. The Pope is descending the last set of stairs that will lead him to the pathway to the helicopter. The Swiss guard lined up. They are his protectors for now.

BURNETT: You can see in St. Peter's Square thousands of people. They have giant television screens so everyone is able there to watch. Let's just listen to these last few moments for Pope Benedict.

CUOMO: It hasn't happened in 600 years. Could argue it has never happened because when it happened 600 years it was a part of a political imbroglio. It was a problem.

BURNETT: Right.

CUOMO: What Pope Benedict is doing right now is unprecedented in the history of the church, unprecedented perhaps in the history of power. A man with supreme rule over a billion people deciding what is best for the people is for me to step down.

BURNETT: Remember this is not a democracy.

CUOMO: That's right.

BURNETT: So it's not -- there really is no --

CUOMO: And interesting to notice the applause has not stopped for over a minute and a half since he started exiting the building. It has only grown.

BURNETT: It's a special moment for all of us to get to see the man up close. It's very, very few and far between that many of us do, whether you're Catholic or not, actually get to see his face, see him interact with other people. You just don't and you can see the fondness that they feel for him.

You could certainly hear that from Cardinal Dolan when he talked about the grief that he feels that he is leaving. There is certainly that personal -- there is a personal bond there. CUOMO: Spiritual leader in every sense of the word. And you referred to the big screens that are out there. You see some people there looking at it. And here's the people awaiting -- that's where he's going, Castel Gandolfo.

BURNETT: Heading now to the helicopter.

CUOMO: This is really the beginning of the end. He is now leaving the Vatican. He will never return to where he just was.

BURNETT: Where's the pope mobile?

CUOMO: It's waiting for him at Castel Gandolfo.

BURNETT: Ok.

CUOMO: That's a big deal.

BURNETT: Always been one of my favorite things to look at and talk about, that there's a pope mobile. I mean, you know --

CUOMO: Now he's just in a Benz though like every other New York banker. He's making his way to the helicopter. We'll have to see if Father Edward Beck was even close to his suggestion --

BURNETT: His fantasy.

CUOMO: -- that he will pilot himself. He is getting full protection. He is the head of the state still. He will be until he signs off --

BURNETT: For one thing, you know that people, I don't know -- you've been to the Vatican once. I collect passports now. Vatican counts because it is actually --

CUOMO: It's a sovereign.

BURNETT: -- is a sovereign. So I have --

CUOMO: You cannot have mine.

BURNETT: -- two stamps when I went --

CUOMO: If that is what this is about -- if this is about -- if that is what it is, you'll have to get your own.

BURNETT: No, it's very interesting that when you go to the post office, they have -- it is a sovereign state and I think that's something to keep in mind here.

Castel Gandolfo actually is part of that too. It's the same state even though it has two non-contiguous locations. But it is part of the Vatican.

CUOMO: It's an asset of the Holy See. It's an asset of the Holy See and there's a whole complicated issue with Castel Gandolfo. We'll talk about -- in a quieter moment, after he has said his farewell. But in a way, there's some symbolism to this also. It's not just a summer residence.

Castel Gandolfo has played a really big role in the transition of the Church over the years. They lost it for a while. It was given back by Mussolini. It's been a different point of the relevance of the church over the years and it's going to take on a different relevance today.

So the car is traveling right now. We just watched Pope Benedict leave the Vatican. There they are moving along -- a pretty good clip.

BURNETT: Straight to the helicopter. That's where they're headed.

Let's go to Christiane Amanpour and Father Irwin who are in Rome right now sort of in the middle of all of that clapping and celebrating we just saw, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Indeed. And off he goes in that car, as you said, at a pretty brisk clip. He's going to the helipad which I'm told is at the Vatican train station, if you can believe it and you know better than I that there is a Vatican train station. He'll get on the helicopter and go.

I just came from the North American College where I interviewed Cardinal Dolan about half an hour ago and he said, Cardinal Dolan, that him and many of the other cardinals, the American elected cardinals who are going to be staying there are going to go up to the roof to see if they can see the helicopter taking off.

We've already seen Cardinal Turkson of Ghana has joined the Twitter revolution and he himself from the top of --