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Pope Benedict's Last Day

Aired February 28, 2013 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... cardinals, the American elected cardinals who are going to be staying there are going to go up to the roof to see if they can see the helicopter taking off.

We've already seen Cardinal Turkson of Ghana has joined the Twitter revolution and he himself from the top of St. Peter's behind me has tweeted a picture.

Perhaps many of them are going up there to see if they can watch the helicopter take off.

But look, this is massive. Look, we're watching this in minute detail unfold. Why? Not just because he's an elderly man who's decided to resign, but because he's the leader of 1.2 billion people, not just the leader of those Catholics, but somebody who when he speaks, when he moves, when he makes pronouncements, when he receives heads of state and talks and pronounces on international affairs or affairs that affect our daily lives, affairs of science, of education, of theology, it really makes a difference.

For better or for worse, it makes a difference, monsignor.

MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CANTHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA: He speaks with authority, not power. That's the kind of man he is, the logic, the integrity, the insights, and the world has listened to him and he inherited from John Paul a stage.

He filled it not quite as largely, but filled it very adequately with the authority of his teachings, not by power.

AMANPOUR: And when we say, listens to him, the world listens to the pope, whether it is Benedict, John Paul or whoever the next one might be.

IRWIN: Well, as a matter of fact, that's true. Succession is the word. One succeeds the other succeeds the other succeeds the other on the basis of what we believe.

AMANPOUR: We've been talking about a lot and I obviously talked to Cardinal Dolan about it. You're an American. Cardinal McCarrick told me last night that he did not think, and certainly Cardinal Dolan always plays down any sort of talk about him being the next pope, but the fact of an American being a pope does not look like it's in the cards now. IRWIN: That's been said for a long time, but to be very honest, I think that the fact that we have taken the lead on the abuse crisis may well be -- may be the joker.

It may well be that someone looks to having done extraordinary work in that field.

AMANPOUR: And as we keep talk about this, when we see also now the pope who has arrived, looks like to me at the helipad area, this, again, is at the Vatican train station where there is a helipad nearby, don't forget that once he leaves, they will then seal up the Vatican apartments with that yellow papal seal ...

IRWIN: Christiane?

AMANPOUR: ... that will, when he is no longer pope, be sede vacante.

Chris and Erin?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And, Christiane, right now, we're seeing the pope has exited his car and he's making his way to the helicopter. We're watching it right now.

Pope Benedict the XVI has -- he's left the Vatican for the last time. He is greeting the thousands who have come out to see him. The applause has been basically nonstop following him along the way.

Every one of these is a final moment. He'll never be back to the Vatican as pope. He'll never be in that car again.

And while they seem like details, something of this scope, they matter. so let's listen in.

ERIN BURNETT, HOST, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": We have, by the way, confirmed. Father Beck wanted to prove himself correct and you did, I have to say.

So, he pulled up the report from the Catholic News Agency which showed in a report from when the pope came here to the United States that he does indeed like to pilot that helicopter himself when he flies from the Vatican to the residence.

Obviously, he's not doing that today. I think Chris was right, that would have just been a step too far. I'm exhausted. I can't do the job.

CUOMO: That would have been very confusing. And then he goes up and he does like a buzz over the Vatican. It just sends a very troubling -- a very disturbing scene.

BURNETT: I don't know. I might like that, the super-modern Catholic.

CUOMO: You know, it's such a -- you will never know what's going on inside the pope's mind. He is almost sphinx-like when you look at him. It is tough to discern his own thoughts. But imagine for each of these cardinals and men who he's worked with in their final goodbye to them as pope, also, and the little gestures and the blessings. That's something that will stay a lifetime for them, as well.

We're waiting for the helicopter now, for its engine and its rotor to start turning, watching it live.

Monsignor, back here in New York, you were saying something earlier?

MONSIGNOR RICK HILGARTNER, EXEC. DIR., U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: I -- you know, normally, this transition would be about the death of a pope, and this time there is some sadness here.

Many of the cardinals this morning spoke of their own sadness, Cardinal Dolan, in particular. And there is in a very personal way for many people because it's not a question that they won't see Pope Benedict as pope again, he's moving into a reclusive life of prayer.

For many, we won't see him ever again, and there is a bit of grieving in this transition that will happen, nonetheless. Even though he's going to continue to serve the church in prayer, it will be far, far from the public eye and it's not as though he'll be entertaining people at dinners or having guests over on a regular basis.

It's really going to be a monastic kind of life.

CUOMO: The rotor is starting to turn. When the helicopter takes off ...

BURNETT: Yeah, I was just listening here, the final tweet came in.

As you know, the pope joined Twitter. Obviously, he didn't manage the account, but he did join Twitter and he just sent out his final tweet and it is, "Thank you for your love and support. May you always experience the joy that comes from putting Christ at the center of your lives." That is the final tweet from Pope Benedict the XVI.

CUOMO: As pope. And, now it's up to the new pope to decide whether or not they want to carry on with the "Pontiff X" screen name.

BURNETT: I'm betting that they will.

CUOMO: So, rotors going now. The bird is going to take off, 15- minute trip to Castel del Gandolfo. It is the summer residence. There will be there more of a ceremony.

Now, we hear the bells ringing there. The next time we will hear those bells -- and they ring all the time in Rome, obviously. But the next time they'll have major significance, of course, is when the (INAUDIBLE), the big bell, signifies that "habemus papam," "we have our next pope."

So, right now, they are sending off the pope, Benedict XVI, for the last time, marking time there, 5:00 local time. 8:00 local time there will be the end of his papacy. That's the end of his usual work day. Also, a little window into the strain that he's saying he's looking forward to getting away from, a day that went from very early until 8:00 every day, very taxing, especially for someone his age.

BURNETT: Right. Of course, the bells are ringing now. They're going to ring when the helicopter lands as well, which, you know, brings me back to what I enjoy so much about all of this is the pomp and circumstance of it.

People can be critical, Father Beck, of the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church, but it is what makes it the Catholic Church.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's something of what inspires us, right? I mean, it lifts our spirit to something more majestic than ourselves, so it really facilitates our prayer, I think.

MELINDA HENNEBERGER, WASHINGTON POST: It's what Andrew Greeley used to call the poetry of Catholicism that binds us to the church even when we have our problems with it. And I think that's true.

And you're also looking at a church that has always known the power of art and the power of art as a pathway to God. I mean, it's -- you know, the answer to the reformation was, really? Look at the art of Rome, you know, in the Counter-Reformation and get back to us.

You know, that -- our cudgel was art.

CUOMO: The bird has lifted off, the papal helicopter.

BURNETT: Now, I am interested in helicopters, by the way, Chris, and I am curious whether this is an Augusta Midland, a very solid Italian- made helicopter that you can see through the bottom right in the front and I see that this one can.

CUOMO: Well, let's (INAUDIBLE), the brains and the control room. Is this ...

BURNETT: An Augusta Midland?

CUOMO: Is it? What do we have?

BURNET: Just the way he sat in it. Because, by the way, they're very quiet. You can sit. You don't have to wear headphones and things like that, as you do in ...

CUOMO: We're getting that answer right now.

BURNETT: They're thinking Erin Burnett is the worst person ever, asking that question.

CUOMO: Not at all. Not at all.

BURNETT: All right, guys.

CUOMO: We only know what we can see as the sun is setting in Rome. Here's the helicopter that holds Pope Benedict the XVI, taking a looping route, going back north before it's going to come back south to go to where Castel del Gandolfo is.

On the ground, thousands and thousands of people looking up at a man they will never again see as pope.

The bells are ringing. The sun is setting, literally and symbolically, for Pope Benedict the XVI.

This is a 15-minute ride to Castel del Gandolfo, the summer residence of the pope. He's going to do something more ceremonious there.

The "pope-mobile" ...

BURNETT: The "pope-mobile" is waiting and then he's going to have a final goodbye where he will be on the balcony and say goodbye to all the people who have congregated there.

CUOMO: A big marker will be when the Swiss Guard -- they use the word "abandon." Well, that's a drastic word.

They will leave Castel del Gandolfo, and that will be the outward sign that Benedict the XVI is no longer pope.

BURNETT: All right, now, because you love this part of it, you're obsessed with the second (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: I am.

BURNETT: Yeah, I know you are. All right, so, walk us through it.

I know that they could have up to 10 days before they start the conclave, but ...

CUOMO: Oh, this is a big deal. This is a big deal.

We've brought in a lot of experts. This is a big deal because the passion is in the process, and we're going to talk about this. We're going to get a calendar out.

You know, once the pope has said his goodbye, but obviously, while nobody wants to rush this moment, it brings such anticipation of what comes next on every level, from what has he told the cardinals. Will they get together immediately?

We do know that they have come in huge numbers early on. There was something like 140 cardinals present this morning. They already have the entire voting body there.

A lot of the process was built in for travel time to Rome back in the day when you were on steamer.

BURNETT: When the pope had passed away and you ...

CUOMO: That's right, and you had to get there on donkey or whatever it was, to plane, to boat, to car, but now, they're all there anyway and it could start immediately. So, we know this. When he says goodbye, when his reign ends tonight -- not reign. When his papacy ends tonight, they'll have a meeting tomorrow.

At that meeting tomorrow, they will announce when the general congregation begins, which is the open discussion of where -- all the things that we believe they have to discuss will start.

How long will that last? We don't know. But we do know the first order of business is when the conclave will be, and that is when the big moments begin.

But until then it's all speculation, which is delicious, and very, very significant for the church.

BURNETT: It is delicious. Although one thing that I found very interesting is that when you look at the people who are going to be voting, they are from John Paul or from Pope Benedict. In fact, more than half of them from Pope Benedict, so we would imagine the person that they are likely to pick would be someone very much like him, conservative?

HILGARTNER: Well, we don't know that actually because what they'll do in the coming days in the general congregation as look at the issues facing the church, is to determine, as Cardinal Dolan said in his interview earlier, that looking -- you know, what kind of leader do we need?

And Pope Benedict's resignation words were that he did not have the stamina, the strength to deal with the significant matters facing the church today.

He didn't identify what those were, but he did point to the fact that there are significant questions.

So, some of the cardinals may look and say, well, if Pope Benedict felt that he no longer could do this, is it simply a question of physical stamina, or is there something else that he might have been inferring?

BURNETT: I still am so curious, though, because it just seems that you say they're going to open the door to having a conversation about married priests. You were talking about what Cardinal Dolan told Christiane earlier, Father Beck.

But then I think about the issues, the issue of homosexuality, the issue of abuse, the issue of women priests, the issue of women, in general, in the church, and I wonder are they ever really going to deal with it, or is this another opportunity -- and you may not see it as a missed one. Everyone can disagree on that. But they just won't actually do it?

BECK: But you know what? There is no real predicting it. When John the XXIII was elected, they thought he was going to be a mild Italian transitional pope.

He called Vatican II. It revolutionized the church. They did not expect that to come from John the XXIII.

BURNETT: So, you don't know if he's going to do it. I mean, that's the thing.

BECK: Or you don't know who you're getting when you elect who you think you're electing.

BURNETT: Kind of like the Supreme Court.

BECK: Yeah. You have to leave some room for the unknown in that, and the Spirit moving, I think.

BURNETT: Right. Yeah.

CUOMO: Let's get back to the moment for a second. Inside the helicopter, Pope Benedict the XVI, imagine what's going through his mind right now, all the history that he has made in the last several minutes.

On the ground, thousands of people wishing him well. Also, thousands of people waiting for him to come to them at the Castel del Gandolfo.

Christiane Amanpour, you are in Rome where the pope is now exiting. How is it there?

AMANPOUR: Oh, Chris, I can't tell you. I mean, who would have thought that, first of all, there would be a helicopter following a helicopter and we'd be watching this flight as if it was sort of like a car chase, but yet it is so dramatic.

It's so dramatic. I never thought that it would be like this when the moment came.

People are in St. Peter's Square. They watched all those final moments that we've been talking about on a big screen.

There have been people waving as the helicopter flies overhead. We just saw it fly overhead us.

And there it is again, this helicopter that we're going to be watching until it lands in Castel Gandolfo.

But you can't really underplay and underestimate the importance of this moment. We've said over and again that this is an unprecedented event, that the most powerful religious leader in the world, the man with the biggest flock in the world, 1.2 billion Catholics -- no other faith leader has a flock of that size -- voluntarily decided to step down.

Who does that? It's not re-election. This is about it. We saw him go over the most amazing Roman sites, didn't we? Across the Coliseum, across the Church of the Pope (INAUDIBLE).

IRWIN: I have not been as moved until this moment about the resignation.

AMANPOUR: Yeah, I agree with you.

IRWIN: I have come to love Rome for many, many years. He flew over the Coliseum. What more do you need?

And then over the Church of John Lateran. Every city in the world has one cathedral. That's his cathedral, John Lateran, and that part of the city, I -- they knew what they were doing, they always do, taking the pope over his cathedral for the last time, outstanding.

AMANPOUR: Honestly, again, it is moving because this is such a stoic pope. You know, whatever we want to say and we will for many, many days to come, about all the challenges that this church faces, about how it's been buffeted and rocked by the most appalling scandals, nonetheless, this is a significant moment and we all want to see the Catholic Church move forward so that the faithful can continue their faith in the hierarchy and in those who lead them.

But this is a man who is, in his public persona, the kind who doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve, as our esteemed colleague John Allen has constantly pointed out.

Yesterday in his Popemobile in St. Peter's square he was quite stoic even then. He kept putting his arms out and embracing the people and you could see the first inklings of emotion pouring out after two weeks he had made this decision to resign. He talked about the gravity of it, the novelty of it and how this was something that, you know, nobody has seen, nobody has had to deal with for more than six or seven centuries.

IRWIN: And for a different set of reasons. The other pope who returned to the Vatican and resigned and left the Vatican was seven centuries ago. But this pope's talk yesterday was very different. Not a catechesis, it was a personal homily reflection on what was happening. And then he admitted that the See of Peter was facing tough times and the Barque of Peter has to be reformed and be continued to be purged (ph). That was his message, and there were times that he was afraid. We're all afraid. But the pope said that, gives us permission to know that God is still with us even if we're afraid.

CUOMO: As we watch this, Christiane, back here in New York, it is a beautiful moment no matter what you believe. It literally is like a postcard for Rome. The helicopter has traveled over the most beautiful sights. It is positive, though somewhat somber. But it's interesting to me to watch back here. I'm moved by the moment as a journalist, somewhat as a Catholic. But for you two, your faces have changed, Monsignor, Father, as you've been watching him. What does this mean to you as truer servants?

HILGARTNER: It is moving and like Monsignor Irwin said a couple of minutes ago it really is striking me now that in two hour's time, we'll be sede vacante and for a very different set of reasons. I was in Rome at the time of the last conclave as a graduate student and was in the square when Pope John Paul died and was in the square when the smoke went up announcing Pope Benedict's election, and was there to receive his first blessing as pope. So I feel like there's a book end here.

But because this is so uncharted, we don't have terms, we don't have policies. It's taken them a week or two to clarify what Pope Benedict's title will be and how he'll be addressed and what he'll wear. We're in very uncharted waters and it is a little -- there's an excitement about it because there's this question of, well, what could we do? Are we going to think outside the box? But there's another piece of how does the church take a step forward from this moment that's so unfamiliar.

BECK: I don't know how this will come out or if I should really even say this, but there hasn't been a lot of times in recent years when I have felt real proud of the Roman Catholic Church with everything we've gone through. But looking at this and seeing this man and what he's done and what he's relinquished for the sake of something else, it gives me a lot of hope and inspires me just to see it. And I feel proud. Pride isn't a good thing sometimes but I feel proud to be a priest and a Roman Catholic right now.

CUOMO: Pride is a deadly sin, isn't it?

BECK: It is.

CUOMO: Not today. We'll give you a pass. Melinda, you cover this. You take a look at this very closely. This idea that what he did is a beautiful gesture and it shows that there can be change. And this at the highest level. Many of these issues that we battle with mostly as Americans because in other regions of the world, to be fair, we're broadcasting out to the world audience for CNN and CNNi, there are many different interests.

HENNEBERGER: They're not as important.

CUOMO: Celibacy, marriage, dealing with gay marriage. Different when you're starving to death as they are in so many developing parts of the world where the Catholic Church is growing. But this symbol of I am the most powerful and I have done the biggest change, what could it translate to?

HENNEBERGER: Well, this pope was a reluctant pope from the beginning. So when we're talking about, you know, looking at these people who have quite mixed feelings, feeling the poignancy of the moment, I do not believe the pope himself. I see him with a big whew. Listen to his words. He said you have borne with me this burden of the ministry. And for someone who does not particularly like being in the spotlight. He's a quiet, academic guy who loves to be writing and reading, I think he feels that he is laying down this burden.

CUOMO: You think he's already kicked off the red Prada shoes, has a pair of Crocs on in the helicopter, think he's taking it easy?

HENNEBERGER: His Mexican moccasins.

CUOMO: Catching up on his fiction?

HENNEBERGER: As for where we go from here, I think he gave a clue to that too when he said the church is a living body. And that really is an important thing to say because it signals the opportunity for change. Meaning the church is always changing. And even though it's kind of gotten lost in the big news of the last couple weeks, there was a pretty massive news break in the church just I think it was two weeks ago in Germany when the German bishops affirmed a cautious approval for the morning-after pill for rape victims. That's a pretty big shift.

CUOMO: Yes, it is.

HENNEBERGER: And, you know, when Cardinal Dolan says, yes, we're going to talk about this, we've always talked about it, he's not really opening the door to a discussion about things like women cardinals, ordination or even birth control, but I think that as you were saying before, you can never know what the next pope is going to do, where the conversation is going to lead, as long as you realize that for what for them are the basics, they're not on the table day one or day 1001.

BURNETT: One thing you talk about, you talk of being proud to be a Catholic. It's that -- that was a poignant thing to hear you say but we talk about the issues in the United States with Catholics. But to the point about the church growing around the world, it has been growing around the world. By the way, it's been growing in the United States. So it's about 17 percent of the world population. 1.2 billion. But the numbers that I found, these are from Georgetown, obviously Jesuit. Half of the population of the United States, self- identified Catholics, so a lot of these people may or may not practice, is up 60 percent since 1965. I know a lot of that is immigration but that's a pretty stunning thing.

HILGARTNER: It is stunning. Of course it's growing in Asia and Africa the fastest. Which is why many people are saying should the next pope be from the developing world, Asia and Africa. There are two candidates from both of those places that maybe we'll talk about later. But it would be a nice symbol for Catholics around the world if that were to happen.

CUOMO: Let's reset for one moment. If you can, take the shot again that splits the helicopter with the bells. This is beautiful in and of itself. The sun literally bouncing off the papal helicopter. The Italian Air Force helicopter that is taking the pope to Castel Gandolfo. Literally the sunset for Pope Benedict XVI. The symbolism of the moment caught with this split screen you're seeing right now. On the left side, the bells are ringing, they are saying goodbye to the pope. They are also sounding a call for what will come next. Next to it, of course, the helicopter. Literally riding off into the sunset.

BURNETT: Yes, the sunset in Rome.

CUOMO: Pope Benedict goes.

BURNETT: We were watching it go over Rome. It then circled back over the Vatican, St. Peter's, went over the coliseum, went over the airport. That would mean that nobody else is flying in or out of Rome right now.

CUOMO: Not right now. It's a 15-minute trip, a very short trip, but it ain't going to be a 15-minute trip this time and I think that's very intentional. The Air Force, the Italian Air Force chopper, the pope is on board with his secretary.

BURNETT: We're looking at the landing area for the helicopter in Castel Gandolfo, which is helicopter looks like it is now approaching.

CUOMO: This is it. And again, this is all a series, for those finding the interest to watch, of finality. These are all end moments. He'll never leave the Vatican again, he'll never be on his helicopter again as pope. And in just moments that will be true, which as we've learned here today is of special significance to this pope because as Father Beck told us, he is a pilot. So it's probably even more meaningful to him that this is the last time he'll be on this helicopter as pope.

BURNETT: When he gets the gift of -- I know this sounds so layperson but of retirement. Of being able to have peace and seclusion and a chance to say goodbye to life, which popes did not traditionally have. He gets that great gift. Here he is. And there are going to be, you are now looking at Castel Gandolfo. There's going to be bells ringing. People are waiting with torches because the sun has set. Dusk has approached in Castel Gandolfo and there are people waiting in the square outside where he will be addressing them from the balcony. The helicopter, he'll get into the car and go into Castel Gandolfo.

CUOMO: The pope has touched down. Interesting, the signs that we've seen that keep popping up in different languages. They all say the same thing, though, thank you. Thank you. That's what they're saying to Pope Benedict XVI. There's one of those signs right now, danke.

BURNETT: The diocese of Albano (ph) is the diocese in Castel Gandolfo. Those are the clergy to whom he will be addressing them in a few moments when he gets out of the helicopter. They'll let the rotor stop because otherwise he gets out and it blows you.

CUOMO: He knows that, he's a pilot.

BURNETT: That's right.

CUOMO: There's a lot of detail that comes along with him. What he'll wear, who will look after him, where will he be, what will he do. We have answers to some of that and we'll be discussing it throughout the coverage of this special today.

BURNETT: When does he change the shoes? Because red signified the bleeding and the sacrifice and he's going to change to brown.

HILGARTNER: I think once the retirement is actually in effect this evening, the shoes will go.

BURNETT: 8:00?

HILGARTNER: You know why they're red? For the blood of the martyrs. The blood of the martyrs, the red shoes.

BURNETT: And then also he had a gold ring which they are going to --

HILGARTNER: Destroy.

CUOMO: Why do you have to destroy it?

HILGARTNER: Because it says Benedict XVI. It has the image of Peter on it and he's no longer pope.

CUOMO: Why can't he keep the ring?

BURNETT: They remake it for someone else?

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Is it like somebody broke off an engagement.

BECK: The Monsignor was talking about this early.

HILGARTNER: It's the symbol of his power because in earlier periods, the pope would issue a decree and the ring would have been used to seal in the wax and so the destruction of the ring upon normally the death of the pope symbolized that no one else could use the ring and issue something as a forgery. So today it's symbolic. And there had been some question as to whether they would actually destroy the ring or turn it over to the Vatican museums. But they are going to keep with the custom and it will be up to the up to the camerlingo, Cardinal Bertoni, tonight after they seal the papal apartment after 8:00 tonight.

CUOMO: Do we know who the pope is speaking to right now? He just got off, it's the first man he met with. We know he's going to meet with the mayor of the township. We know he's going to meet with certain heads of clergy. I can't tell if they're clergy from here. I see a bunck of cassocks there on the ground. Obviously he is there and this is the final leg of the pope's trip to Castel Gandolfo, the summer retreat that we're watching now.

BURNETT: The formal welcome.

CUOMO: Hear what the Italians are saying. Can we hear what the Italians are saying?

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END LIVE FEED)

CUOMO: He's talking to certain members of the military, certain members of the clergy there and local governing body.

BURNETT: He does seem relieved. Christiane and Monsignor Irwin, I know that you're saying how this moment really struck you as you saw the helicopter and how special and amazing it was. But the look on his face when he landed, it was one of relief.

AMANPOUR: It was amazing. Amazing. Just to let you know who he was actually meeting with and who was greeting him, according to the list that we've been given, there's Cardinal Bertello, who's the president and governor of the Vatican city state also the Bishop Scicca who was secondary general and governor of the Vatican city state and the Bishop of Albano and also the mayor of Castel Gandolfo and the parish priest of Castel Gandolfo. So those are the people who'll be meeting him, and do you know I want to turn to the Monsignor for some very important record correcting on the shoes. We have said for years, ever since we watched this pope be elected in 2005, that he was wearing red Prada shoes, I'm afraid we have been wrong.

IRWIN: They are red shoes given to him because Constantine gave him the privileges of being an emperor and he allowed him to wear red shoes and a red cape. Frankly the papal shoe maker is up the block he's not Prada. So the devil may have worn Prada but not this pope.

AMANPOUR: So correcting it on the last day of his papacy.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: The Catholic Church has done that over the years where it meant one thing for emperors but meant something different for them.

AMANPOUR: There you go. And the next pair of shoes, of course, brown leather ones given to him from his trip to Mexico by a particular benefactor in Mexico. So there we have it.

BECK: He's also giving up his red cape, by the way. He's just going to have a simple white tunic. An interesting side note, when he became pope, they have three sizes of white sutans to fit the pope in. None of them fit Pope Benedict.

CUOMO: Oh, really?

BECK: It was a major embarrassment for the Gamarelli tailors, so they just put a simple white alb on him, and he was cold so he said I'm going to keep my black sweater on. They put a simple white alb over his black sweater and he went out to the balcony.

CUOMO: They had a small, medium and large. Why would not one fit him?

BURNETT: That is a strange thing. What is he?

BECK: He's not that tall. He's about 5'7. So why they did not have -- they usually have one to fit anybody. I know. When John XXIII was fitted, he was too big and they had to let the seam out in the back and they held it together with pins, but they just put a simple white alb on him and threw him out over his black sweater and there he was.

HENNEBERGER: And it wasn't a surprise that he was the choice in that time.