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Doors Close as Pope Steps Down; New Life of Leisure; The Future of the Church; Gay Candidate Found Dead; White House Email Not Threatening; Budget Cuts to Kick In

Aired February 28, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN ANALYST: Well, what's going to happen, Christiane, is that when that magic hour of 8:00 rolls around and the papacy of Benedict XVI ends, and the Sedevecant, the "empty chair" begins, you will see the Swiss guard -- you will see the doors of Castel Gandolfo close and the Swiss guard will begin --

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right now.

ALLEN: And it's happening even as we speak. The Swiss guard will leave. Because they're mandate is to protect the governing authority of the church. And once that is no longer Benedict XVI, they will return to the Vatican to take up guard around the College of Cardinals, who will now possess the full authority of the church.

AMANPOUR: They're taking the salute. They're doing the ceremonial retreat. And in they go. That is the end of the Swiss guards protecting Benedict XVI as pope. As you say, they will then return to protect the College of Cardinals, which is now going to be the reigning authority.

ALLEN: And it's worth saying, Christiane, we are literally witnessing a historic first tonight. You know, Cardinal Francis George (ph) of Chicago, which is, of course, here, will participate in the election of the next pope, is fond of saying, in the church, everything has happened at least once. That's not true tonight. This has never happened before.

AMANPOUR: Let's listen for a second.

Well, the doors have closed. I mean, what stronger symbol than that. The doors have closed on the papacy of Benedict XVI. It's over. Sedevacant goes into effect right now. The empty seat. And the next thing that we are going to see are the cardinals, the grand congregation convening together on Monday. John, do you know what time they're going to come together?

ALLEN: 9:30 in the morning Rome time. That will be the first meeting in the general congregations. And in a departure from the way they did it last time, they've actually going to go back in that afternoon. I think that reflects a desire among many cardinals to get the first order of business, which is setting the date for the conclave, the election of the next pope, as quickly as they possibly can.

AMANPOUR: But let's just make it clear, the general congregation is a huge number of cardinals and then that gets whittled down to those who are age appropriate for the election.

ALLEN: That's right. There are 208 cardinals in the world as of today. Actually we lost one yesterday. So let me correct myself, 207. And of that number, some of them are under 80 and eligible to elect the next pope, 117. And the rest are over 80. All of the cardinals can participate in the general congregation meetings. And most of them will. However, once they begin assessing into the Sistine Chapel to cast ballots for the next pope, then it's only those under 80, of whom there will be 115 this time around.

AMANPOUR: And what was extraordinary, you talk about 117, but actually, as you told me earlier today, it will be 115 who take part because we've have the resignation and the retirement of one and because of illness another cardinal has not been able to come here.

What we saw earlier today, in the last several hours, was this incredible departure from the Vatican by helicopter. And, honestly, it was like watching a helicopter chase, if you like, because it was one helicopter filming as Pope Benedict flew across Rome for 15 minutes. Across ancient sights, like the Coliseum. Across the church that's the pontifical church, St. John the Laterin (ph). And he then landed in Castel Gandolfo. We're seeing pictures from earlier today. He was met by the local ecclesiastical leaders. He was met by the mayor of Castel Gandolfo. And began the process to becoming, as he said, an ordinary pilgrim.

This has been a very elaborate week, really. Yesterday we had the general audience, his final audience, in which he toured around St. Peter's Square with his Popemobile and received the thanks and the cheers of perhaps tens of thousands of people who jammed St. Peter's Square. And now -- now we are entering this sort of unknown.

ALLEN: That's right. That's precisely what the Sedevacant is. The chair is empty. Which begs the obvious question of who will occupy it next, which is the $64,000 question. You and I don't know the answer to that. And as of tonight, neither do those 115 cardinals who are going to be voting. We just had an opportunity to speak to three of the American cardinals and they swore -- and I think they were being sincere -- that although, obviously, they knew this moment was coming, they'd begun thinking. Cardinal George of Chicago said he's got his a list, b list, and c list. But they themselves don't know for whom they are going to vote. And, obviously, they don't know who's going to be that candidate to cross that magic threshold of two-thirds, that 77 of the 115 cardinals, and become the next pope.

AMANPOUR: And we're going to send it back to you in Atlanta.

BROOK BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Christiane Amanpour and John Allen, my thanks to both of you.

And as John was just talking about, the a list and the b list and the c list, let's go there because this is really the most closely guarded secrets of the catholic church right now. Candidates in the running to become the next pope. Take a look at some of the favorites here.

First and considered the front-runner, you have Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana. He would be the first from Africa. He's a regular on Twitter. Seen as one of the less conservative cardinals.

Also possibly here another choice, the Archbishop of Milan, Angelo Scola, son of a truck driver, known for his enthusiasm and outreach to the Muslim world.

Among other contenders, a close friend of -- we should say now pope emeritus, Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco. He is well-liked among the cardinals. One of the more conservative choices here.

Also Cardinal Mark Ouellet from Canada. Remember, he made headlines in 2010 when he said abortion was, and I'm quoting, "a moral crime." He's laughed the idea of becoming pontiff, saying the work load would be, quote, "a nightmare."

And then there's Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York, who would be the first American pope and, believe it or not, at 63 years young, that is considered young for the job. Take a listen to what he said about his own chances.

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CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: People who say that might be drinking too much grop (ph) or smoking marijuana. They asked me today, they said, do you have a chance to follow Pope Benedict? I said, I've got a better chance following A-Rod at third base for the Yankees than following Benedict XVI as the bishop of Rome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Christiane speaking with Cardinal Dolan earlier. A true New Yorker there. But until that puff of white smoke -- remember the white smoke from eight years ago -- until we see that white smoke sent poof up the chimney of the conclave room under the beautiful frescos of Michelangelo at the Sistine Chapel, that's where they meet, that should happen next month, we will just have to wait and find out who that choice is.

Now as we saw live here from Castel Gandolfo, the doors of his life as pope have officially closed. After that 15 minute helicopter ride from Vatican City, the pope now at his temporary home. This sprawling, beautiful lakeside estate called Castel Gandolfo. He will remain here while his permanent home in an old monastery is renovated. Ben Wedeman, our senior international correspondent, joining me now live from Vatican City.

And, Ben, the villa, from what I understand, this Castel Gandolfo, it's been used by popes since 1626. Mostly as a summer residence. You've been inside. I hear it's pretty fancy.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's very impressive. As you said, 155 -- 35 acres of very nice real estate overlooking Lake Albano on one side, the sea on another. And, of course, like almost everything related to the catholic church, it is full of history. It goes well back before 1626, in fact. It used to be the home of one of the roman emperors. A summer home, of course. There's also an ancient roman amphitheater there. Now, what's interesting is that Pope Benedict apparently had something of an environmental inclination. He made sure that Castel Gandolfo had no carbon footprints. Now, much of the food that's eaten on the premises is grown there. They have their own olives, their own citrus trees, cows and chickens to provide eggs and meat. And so he's going to have a very calm and quiet two months there.

Now, I spoke to the head of the man who runs that estate. He said that he knows the pope very well and -- the pope emeritus, I should say at this point, and that he's a man -- he said he described him as reserved. Somebody who's very much into his books, into his studies. And that he goes on short walks, but he, unlike John Paul II, was not one for long hikes in Castel Gandolfo.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Ben Wedeman, thank you very much.

Here in the United States, American Catholics are divided on the future of their church. Let's take a look at this month's Pew poll. Catholics split on what they want from the next pope. You see here, 46 percent want change. They want the papacy to go in a new direction. Fifty-one percent say, no, stay traditional here.

Father Dave Dwyer is live with me now from New York. He is the host of the busted halo show on the Catholic Channel on Sirius FM.

Father, welcome. As we were sort of pointing out potential next popes, tell me three things, three priorities you want to see in this next leader.

FR. DAVE DWYER, CSP, CATHOLIC PRIEST: Well, because we refer to the pope as the vicar of Christ, which means the ambassador, the representative of our Lord Jesus Christ here on earth, he's got to be a man who reminds us, in many ways, of our Lord Jesus. Now you can say, sure, a lot of believers do that. You don't have to be the pope to do that. But to show that compassion and that love and mercy of Jesus Christ, that's one.

I would say another would be, at this time in our church's history, we need a unifier. There is a lot of division, not only around the world, not only here in the United States, but even within the bureaucracy of the workings of the Vatican. We've heard that a lot over the last couple of weeks, that will a new pope come in and kind of clean up and streamline some things. To make it a bit more efficient perhaps.

And then, third, I think we need someone who will demonstrate to the faithful that we are a church that can listen, as well as teach. Will this pope be a listener? I would think so.

BALDWIN: Father Dave Dwyer, we should know, perhaps in a matter of weeks. We shall see. I appreciate you joining me there in New York.

DWYER: Sure.

BALDWIN: I want to move on now because, coming up next, a legendary journalist says the White House threatened him in an e-mail and now we know who sent the message within the Obama administration.

Also later this hour, a mystery unfolding in Mississippi. A gay mayoral candidate found dead miles away from where police found his car. Stay with me.

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BALDWIN: Some of the hottest stories now in a flash. "Rapid Fire." Roll it.

Keeping an eye on the big board. Take a look with me. Oh, we are, what, 14,141 here. We're watching, we're waiting for that all time high closing mark, 14,164. So basically 20 points away right now from that high. That was hit back in October of 2007. The good economic news today, the number of folks filing for unemployment benefiting falling last week.

The Army private accused in the biggest classified document leak in U.S. history pleading guilty today. At least to the lesser charge against him. The military says Bradley Manning gave thousands of classified documents to WikiLeaks while serving in Iraq. He actually revealed a motive here. Manning said he leaked materials that, quote, "upset or disturbed" him. His court marshal is scheduled for June.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER PRO BASKETBALL PLAYER: We got invited and we just come over and have some fun and hope that, you know, that it will be some fun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Time for some hoops diplomacy and fun, he says. The he here, Dennis Rodman. You know the deal. He's in North Korea. Former NBA bad boy got his wish to meet the North Korean president, Kim Jong-un. China's news agency reporting Rodman and Kim wanted a basketball game, hung out, laughed, had a little fun. Afterward, Rodman reportedly called himself a friend of Kim and a friend of the North Korean people.

Now I want you to take a look at this here. Police seized in Mexico a makeshift cannon. Yep. What was the cannon used for, you ask? To fire packages of pot across a border fence from Mexicali into California. Yep. The cannon had enough force to propel 30 pounds of pot as far as 500 feet.

It is one of the most unsportsmanlike acts we have ever seen. Forty- eight-year-old -- what this with me. Forty-eight-year-old pee wee hockey coach tripping a, yes, a 13-year-old. This is an opposing player during this post-game handshake. The incident happened back in July in Vancouver. The whole thing, obviously, caught on tape. That coach, Martin Tremblay, was just sentenced to 15 days in jail for assault. Don't do that. The judge likened the tripping to a cowardly sucker punch on an unsuspecting victim who was 13.

A gay mayoral candidate found dead in Mississippi. It's a state, of course, known for its more conservative politics. Marco McMillian had big plans for Clarksdale. That was his hometown of just about 17,000 people. Take a look. That's him in the red tie standing next to President Obama. This is just from a couple of years ago. He was only 34 years old. A Democrat. Considered a rising star in politics. But on Tuesday, police say a man crashed McMillian's SUV into another car. McMillian's body not in the car but found miles away near a Mississippi River levee. Nick Valencia is with me here in studio.

And just sort of -- can you help me fill in the blanks here? Is anyone in custody? What more do we know?

NICK VALENCIA, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Well, they have a person of interest.

BALDWIN: They do?

VALENCIA: But he's not been formally charged at this point. He was in Brian (ph) McMillian's car on Tuesday, at which point he was driving on the highway, and he veered into oncoming traffic and crashed into another car. Police arrived. They searched Brian McMillian's vehicle, realizing that he was missing. At which point they started conducting this search and they found his body in a levee, in a Mississippi River levee on Wednesday.

Now, Brooke, there's a lot of speculation, a lot of mystery surrounding Brian McMillian's death. I spoke to one of his fraternity brothers earlier today. They described him as someone being very professional. They say that the was out and gay to certain members. But this isn't something that defined him. He wasn't running as the gay candidate in Clarksdale, Mississippi. He just happened to be gay and this is part of his character.

In fact, listen to what his mother had to say to us. We've got a full screen for you here. She said, "he did not announce in public that he was gay. And I don't think that he was attacked because he was gay." This coming to us from Patricia McMillian, Marco's mother. "We didn't even know him. We never heard of him. He wasn't a friend on his FaceBook page. Marco didn't know him either." That comes from his stepfather of Brian McMillian.

Now, he's been characterized as a rising star, Brooke, and he was named as top 30 under 30 by "Ebony" magazine. But in terms of this mayoral race, he wasn't a front-runner. In fact, he wasn't favored to win at all. He was running against several other candidates. One being the son of a former mayor. But he did touch the lives of a lot of people. And a lot of people have been very impacted by this. In fact, the fraternity brother that I spoke to, Brooke, said that Brian never met a stranger.

BALDWIN: We'll follow the investigation right with you. Nick Valencia, thank you so much.

Coming up next here as the clock is ticking on those forced spending cuts, the deadline is Friday night. A legendary journalist says the White House threatened him in an e-mail and now we know who sent the message in the Obama administration. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Gene Sperling now the one who's been revealed as the White House official, this senior official, who had an e-mail spat with Watergate sleuth Bob Woodward, which apparently made Woodward feel uncomfortable. Woodward's new group of supporters have been accusing the White House of quote/unquote "threatening" Bob Woodward. Just a short time ago, the White House said that's nonsense. Look at the emails. Chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin with me now live.

So, what's going on here? Fill me in.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke.

Well, it was the -- the head of the national security -- sorry, the National Economic Council, Gene Sperling, was in an e-mail exchange with "Washington Post" reporter Bob Woodward and he used the phrase "you will regret that," saying to Woodward he would regret reporting something if he went ahead and did it. Well, the White House's account of events is that Sperling merely meant, you will regret getting the facts wrong if you go ahead and do it. Woodward took it to mean, if you report the facts, it will have consequences. So in the White House briefing I asked Jay Carney what Gene Sperling really meant by that e- mail. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: For Gene Sperling, in keeping with a demeanor I have been familiar with for more than 20 years, was incredibly respectful. Referred to Mr. Woodward as his friend. And apologized for raising his voice. I think you cannot read those e- mails and come away with the impression that Gene was threatening anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YELLIN: Brooke, I personally have dealt with Gene Sperling over the years many times. I have never personally experienced him as bullying. But there are sources who do that. There are sources who make it clear that if you report something that is extremely unflattering, there could be a loss of access. And that's just something that you have to deal with in this line of work.

BALDWIN: I want to ask you a little bit more sort of about your job to make it transparent for others, but let me just get to this. That Politico has published what it claims to be, this e-mail exchange. This is February 22nd, February 23rd. It goes something like this. Gene Sperling to Bob Woodward, "I apologize for raising my voice in our conversation today. My bad. But I truly believe you should rethink your comment about saying that the president asking for revenues is moving the goal post. As a friend, I think you will regret staking out that claim."

Now to this, Bob Woodward to Gene Sperling. "Gene, you do not ever have to apologize to me. You get wound up because you are making your points and you believe them. I also welcome your personal advice. I am listening."

So, Jessica, from the tone here, from Bob Woodward's tone, it doesn't sound like he feels threatened. Back to you personally. Out of curiosity, you get e-mails. Obviously you have a lot of sources in the line of work you do. Is it unusual to feel like a source is trying to work you a little bit?

YELLIN: Trying to work you, that's not unusual. You know, sources do try to get you to see their perspective. And I think that that's honest and fair. And part of the reason it's my obligation and every reporter's obligation to talk to multiple sources is because you have to try to separate the perspective from spin, from facts. The more sources you talk to, the more overlapping set of facts you're going to get. And that's where you figure that's where the really story is.

But, you know, one of the challenges in this line of work is to figure out how to both maintain relationships, not burn people, and also, you know, be hard-nosed and stick to a tough story -- stock to the tough real story, Brooke. And, you know, that's what Bob Woodward's trying to do here. And I also know that in this instance it does read as though they had not a tough exchange of words at the time. So it's not surprising that they have a very different perspective at the White House from what Bob Woodward is saying he felt in the exchange.

BALDWIN: OK. Tough gig, but a rewarding one I may add to you, Jessica Yellin. Jessica, thank you so much. Our chief White House correspondent for me in Washington.

And now to this. Stranger things have happened, but it seems pretty much a foregone conclusion that nothing is ever going to happen either I should say today, tomorrow, to undo the federal budget cuts set to take effect at midnight tomorrow night. And keep in mind, these are cuts to the Pentagon, cuts to education, cuts to transportation, cuts to the Justice Department, the IRS. You name it. They were designed to be so harmful that Congress would have to find some other way, some smarter way to reduce the budget deficit. Well, here we are. Let's talk about education today.

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ARNE DUNCAN, EDUCATION SECRETARY: I can't tell you how troubling that is to me and, frankly, how angry it makes me feel. As a nation, we're starting -- you know, the economy's coming back a little bit. In my world, graduation rates are up a little bit. But, again, we're nowhere near where we need to be. We need to be building upon that momentum, not taking a step backwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is our education secretary, Arne Duncan, and he is not at all happy. Let me bring in Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers.

Nice to see you again.

RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: Great to see you. Although not at all happy.

BALDWIN: So -- not under the circumstances for you.

So, Secretary Duncan says that, as a nation, we see ourselves potentially losing 40,000 teachers. Forty thousand teachers. Would the -- if and when this whole thing goes through, would the jobs be gone forever?

WEINGARTEN: Well, look, you know, this is what's so hard about these federal budget cuts. First, they're really, really big on top of the last four years having huge cuts in state localities all across the country. So we've lost 300,000 teachers in the last few years because of the recession.

BALDWIN: So with the 40 now --

WEINGARTEN: So this is -- so the -- so this is what it really means to kids. The cuts in terms of Title 1, these are kids who are poor kids and the work that the folks do who would be cut are the one to one tutoring that does just in time remediation when kids are having trouble reading. The folks in special ed are the service that special need kids have, and they've been cut already. We see 70,000 kids will no longer be eligible for Head Start. Thirty thousand kids will no longer get child care. Thirty thousand kids will no long get immunizations. So if you put that all together, whenever it starts, because some of it will start March 2nd, March 3rd.

BALDWIN: Some of it will be gradual.

WEINGARTEN: Some will be there. But that is -- at the same time, we should be doing this huge investment in kids. The kids who are the poorest will get the worst of these cuts.

BALDWIN: Here's another question though, because, again, back to the actual teacher jobs that could go away, let's say down the road there is a deal that is done. That could happen. There could be a solution. Not by Friday night at midnight, but down the road.

WEINGARTEN: Right.

BALDWIN: So then I know schools and education, you plan for the fall, you plan for the future.

WEINGARTEN: Right.

BALDWIN: Does that mean that those people who lose the jobs are -- they're gone?

WEINGARTEN: Well, it means that if a deal gets done between now and say May, then that planning will go into effect for schools that are now starting to open in August.

BALDWIN: It will.

WEINGARTEN: But what we are seeing is that some of these cuts will be immediate, some will be long-term. A lot of schools have planned already, thank God, for the rest of this year. But the magnitude, $2.5 billion of what is a federal grant -- federal grants go to the poorest of poor kids. So, take a school like in Philly which will lose 700,000 of its Title 1, its federal grant. What teachers there are telling me is, this year they've already gone from 21 kids to 28 kids.

BALDWIN: And then this just add another layer.

WEINGARTEN: And so if they don't have the extra services for kid who can't read, how are they going to help kids?

BALDWIN: I see the frustration in your eyes, Randi Weingarten.

WEINGARTEN: That is why we're so frustrated about this.

BALDWIN: I see the frustration and I appreciate you sharing it.

WEINGARTEN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you so much, Randi, I appreciate it.

WEINGARTEN: Thanks so much.

BALDWIN: Take a look now with me as we talk more money here. The Dow, we're flirting with that all-time high, 14,141. Got about 90 minutes of trading left on the day. What does this mean for you? This number. We'll tell you, next.

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