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Learjet Preparing for Emergency Landing in St. Louis

Aired March 04, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, John Berman, thank you so much. I'm going to take it right from here.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Brooke Baldwin, live at the CNN world headquarters, as we are now over the top of the hour. Let me just reset what we're all looking at.

These are live pictures of the St. Louis downtown airport. To be specific, this is Cahokia, Illinois, just across the river from St. Louis. And I know you don't see a lot right now. These are just sort of different landing strips here as part of this airport. Different tarmacs. What you will see momentarily, if this is what I believe this camera crew on this helicopter is zooming in on, you see those four vehicles. Four vehicles are four different ambulances. So the situation right now is that this airport, here it is, this is this plane. This is this Learjet 45. Ever since 1:00 Eastern Time, it has been circling. And the issue is, it cannot land. There is an issue, according to Tory Dunnan, and stand by for me, Tory, we'll bring you in, in a moment. Tory Dunnan is our aviation expert. It appears -- Tory, let me just go ahead and bring you in. Are you with me?

TORY DUNNAN, CNN AVIATION CONSULTANT: Sure. Yes, I'm here.

BALDWIN: So, does it appear to you that this plane is descending?

DUNNAN: It looks like it is at the moment, although this could be on a delay here. But I have to tell you, Brooke, we've seen it come in and then circle the airport. They are potentially troubleshooting what could be a problem. The FAA saying that this is a Learjet 45. It reported problems with the landing gear door. So it looks like it is coming down right now, descending for possibly what could be an emergency landing. Although we do know that the control tower at that airport there, that they've been in communication with the pilot, trying to really figure out what the best course of action might be. And, Brooke, you mentioned that on the tarmac there, there we go, you can see the emergency --

BALDWIN: The four ambulances, right, preparing for the crash landing scenario.

DUNNAN: Right, exactly, in place.

BALDWIN: Tory, stand by.

Let me bring in Diane Earhart. Diane, I understand you work there at the airport. As we all sort of watch this unfold live on television, tell me what you know is happening.

DIANE EARHART, AIRPORT WORKER (via telephone): Well, we have a Learjet inbound that has a known gear problem. And we're preparing for a possible emergency landing.

BALDWIN: When you say gear problem, can you be more specific?

EARHART: I really can't because the pilot was concerned that the nose gear was not down and in its proper position. And that appears to be the case.

BALDWIN: So, presumably, as you work at the airport, you are in aviation. As we know, this plane has been circling, making several passes to land. And according to the FAA, they have been troubleshooting. Can you walk me through, as best as you know, Diane, sort of the process as you have a plane in crash landing mode, trying to fix whatever is wrong in order to land?

EARHART: We hope it's not going to be a crash landing mode. We never hope for crash landing. It will be an emergency landing. And as he leaves our air space, he's doing troubleshooting according to his emergency checklist and making decisions where he's going to get the best service to try and make a landing. And that each emergency is different and it's up to the pilot what he wants to do.

BALDWIN: Up to the pilot. Is -- do we know, is this a military plane?

EARHART: It is definitely not a military airplane.

BALDWIN: Definitely not a military airplane. Eight people, according to our affiliates, are on board. Is that what you're hearing?

EARHART: Yes.

BALDWIN: Is it a government plane?

EARHART: No, it is a private airplane.

BALDWIN: Why does it keep, then, Diane, going up and down, up and down?

EARHART: I can't verify actually that it is going up and down. We have several airplanes that have come and gone at this airport since this started. And including a military C-1 from nearby Scott Air Force Base.

BALDWIN: OK. And I know you say this is not crash landing mode, and, of course, none of us want to think that way, but obviously given the pictures as we're looking at these ambulances, you know, people on the ground are clearly preparing for something in which an ambulance would be necessary. Can you walk me through protocol, just on the ground, on the tarmac, for situations like this. EARHART: Well, at any emergency landing, each emergency is different, so there is no set procedure for any emergency. It will depend on what the pilot wants to do and how the airplane is configured and where the airplane eventually does land. And, of course, the first priority is keeping any passengers safe.

BALDWIN: Keeping any passengers safe. And as you mentioned, you made the point several times that really it's up to the pilot, just so I'm hearing you correctly, it's up to the pilot whether or not he or she chooses to land, is that correct?

EARHART: That's correct.

BALDWIN: So if this plane is making several circles, as we have been counting perhaps even three in the last hour, who is the pilot communicating with? Is it the air traffic controller? Walk me through this process.

EARHART: The pilot would be talking to the air traffic control tower. And the pilot -- the pilot's intentions, the tower will do whatever he or she wants done.

BALDWIN: Tell me about -- you're there. This is Cahokia, Illinois. Tell me about the area. What's beyond these tarmacs that we're looking at?

EARHART: Well, we're very close to St. Louis metropolitan area, of course. (INAUDIBLE) miles from the gateway arch. And this is just across the Mississippi River in the St. Louis area.

BALDWIN: OK. And the trees beyond, is it a fairly rural area in the immediate vicinity from some of these -- the tarmac there?

EARHART: No, this is -- this is residential.

BALDWIN: Residential. OK. OK, Diane Earhart, I'm going to let you go. I hear phones ringing in the background. We'll hopefully have you back and you can update us on the situation here.

I want to bring in Miles O'Brien.

Miles O'Brien, you have been covering aviation for years and years. What's your assessment as we are sort of learning that this plane here, this Learjet 45, has some sort of issue, according to the FAA, with its landing gear door and they're troubleshooting right now. What's your assessment?

MILES O'BRIEN, AVIATION ANALYST (via telephone): Well, you know, the situation in this case is, time is your friend, fuel permitting, of course.

BALDWIN: Right.

O'BRIEN: And so what a good flight crew will do in this case is not rush things, fuel dependent, of course, and troubleshoot the various mechanisms and systems that put the landing gear down. Ultimately, you want to land with as little fuel on board as possible. Part of that has to do with weight and part of that, of course, has to do with the risk of fire, which occurs.

You know, landing like this with the landing gear up is actually -- happens quite frequently and can be done and is not necessarily going to lead to a spectacular crash. That the pilot has a little bit of skill about it. But it is something that requires a little bit of troubleshooting at first. There are backup manual systems on every plane that allow them to bring the landing gear down without the hydraulic systems that may or may not have failed in this case. So that's what's going on right now in the airplane.

BALDWIN: So if you're talking about how they would like to land with as little fuel as possible, obviously at some point the plane runs out of gas. How much, and, again, and, guys, get in my ear and tell me if we know where this plane was coming from. I don't know that yet. Do we have any idea, presumably, if this, you know, gas tank was full, how long they have?

O'BRIEN: Well, yes, that's -- there are too many --

BALDWIN: We don't know.

O'BRIEN: Variables that I'm unaware of at this point. You know, they -- clearly, you know, you are telling me that there are eight people on board.

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

O'BRIEN: Depending on how far they were flying, they might very well have taken off without full fuel tanks for weight. So, you know, every time you fly in an airplane, they don't necessarily top off the fuel because of the weight considerations. So it's difficult to assess at this point.

BALDWIN: OK. And so as we talk about how they are currently troubleshooting, the they, presumably the pilot, as Diana was explaining to me, she was talking to me from this airport, ultimately it's the pilot's call, she was saying, to land. But the pilot, he or she, is in close communication with the air traffic control tower. What would that communication back and forth be like?

O'BRIEN: Well, for one thing, if you're a pilot, you would try to get some sort of visual confirmation of what your instruments are telling you. You're in the airplane, of course. You can't see the belly of the plane and so you don't know if the landing gear is, in fact, out and it's just a bad indicator that you're operating with. So that would be number one. You would try to do a couple of low passes to confirm the state of the landing gear.

BALDWIN: Oh.

O'BRIEN: Of course, looking at the gear, down, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's down and locked. So you can't necessarily presume you've got a nice, firm undercarriage. And so the first thing you would do is try to assess with, you know, some sort of visual confirmation one way or another what it looks like on the bottom side of the plane.

Then, after that, depending on how that goes, and if its conflicting, if the controllers see the gear down and the pilot still has some indication that it's not down and locked, you would still continue on the assumption that potentially it could collapse on landing. And so you would continue to troubleshoot, see if you can go through any sort of manual backup procedures, fly again until you are in a situation where your fuel is appropriate, and then you just begin the approach. And it really, at that point, becomes just like any other approach, except at that final moment when you're flaring, it's just a little bit lower and you want to come in as slowly as you possibly can at that point.

BALDWIN: Yes. Miles, let me jump in because we're getting a little bit more information from this St. Louis airplane here. So they're saying specifically it is a -- it's a -- it's this Learjet. This Learjet 45 with a nose gear problem. What does that tell you, nose gear problem?

O'BRIEN: Well, of course, you know, you can -- it puts on an interesting scenario. You might -- in theory you might have both of -- you know, obviously, it's a tricycle and you have the -- what they call the main landing gear underneath the wing. The nose, obviously, is where the nose gear is. And you could conceivably land with the two main landing gear, roll down the runway for some significant period of time and hold that nose up as long as possible, and then let it drop down. That's probably the most benign of gear up landings you can imagine. So when you consider that as the possible scenario, that actually bodes well for this concluding in a smooth manner.

BALDWIN: OK.

O'BRIEN: When you have a situation where you have one of the main landing gear, that is to say one of the wing landing gear up and one down --

BALDWIN: Yes.

O'BRIEN: That's not a great situation because it's lopsided, obviously.

BALDWIN: So this tells us that it's not lopsided. That either side landing gear under the wings is fine. It's the nose that's the issue. So you're saying it's the most benign of all sort of worst case scenarios.

Miles, let me bring in Tory Dunnan. She's our aviation expert here at CNN. She'd like to shoot you a question.

Tory, go ahead.

DUNNAN: So, Miles, my question for you is, tell us a little bit more about the aircraft. My understanding is that it has a crew of two on it. So is it possible that there could be two pilots on board here and six passengers? We know that eight total are on that Learjet supposedly. O'BRIEN: Yes. It's a big enough airplane to do eight passengers and two crew, but it's hard to say. I mean it would -- it is an aircraft that is required to have two pilots to be certified to fly legally. So it's not likely -- wouldn't be legal, certainly, to have one pilot on board. So we're talking about a flight crew of two and it's -- you know, it's a newer version of the Lear. It dates back to the mid-'90s. And is a little bit larger than the older, initial Lear jets, which were a little bit smaller. So it actually can handle a crew of two and upwards of nine passengers. So this is a fairly full aircraft, which takes me back to that initial thought about how much fuel might have been on board. It's quite possible, depending on how they were loaded and so forth, that they might not have begun their journey with a full tank of fuel.

BALDWIN: Miles, let me just jump back in. This is Brooke. You know, given this sort of jet, do we have any idea what kind of training a pilot or pilots on board this kind of Learjet 45 might have for scenarios like this one?

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, this is the kind of thing -- these are the kinds of things you do train for in simulators. You obviously don't want to do this in the real world except when you have to, right? And so -- but as part of recurrent training for a flight crew that is involved in flying these for charter and so forth, there would be -- and to get your certification to fly this, what they call a type rating, a certification to fly a particular type of aircraft, among the scenarios you would consider would be how to handle gear up landing or, you know, perhaps more importantly, how to handle a scenario where the gear won't go down and what you do to try to make that landing gear go down.

BALDWIN: OK. So very likely, you know, hopefully, in the case of this pilot, this could actually be the first time he or she has had to go through something like this in real life versus a simulator as part of that certification process, correct?

O'BRIEN: Yes. That's quite possible. It's worth remembering that really it's not unlike a typical landing. You -- you know, you want to be extra special smooth. You want to make sure you glide it in. And you want to make sure you land as slowly as you can, as close to what we call the stall speed, that means not the engine's quitting, but the aerodynamic stall speed.

BALDWIN: OK.

O'BRIEN: So that you don't, you know, you minimize your time dragging along the pavement. That's the idea there. But basically you approach the airport as you would as if you had, you know, landing gear down.

BALDWIN: Tory, I want to bring you back in, because we are seeing an Air Force plane in the area as well. Why is that?

DUNNAN: So, Brooke, we just got this information and this is from the Air Force; apparently that C-21, the Lear jet that we have seen with the Air Force, just happened to be doing training in the area, touch- and-goes, which is really part of that aircraft training and it's why the jet that we have seen with the Air Force markings was going up and down and put its gear up and down.

And from the Air Force, the information is they have no other information about the civilian jet, which is in trouble. So we're trying to sort all this out at the moment, figuring out if, in fact, the plane that we have seen sort of going around the airport is the one in trouble.

BALDWIN: Gotcha. So to be crystal clear, as we're all sort of looking at this together, live on TV, there are two planes we're talking about. One is this Lear jet 45 with these eight people on board. This is the plane that is having the nose gear problem; it's having this issue of landing here at the St. Louis Downtown Airport.

There is a second plane that you've just confirmed with Air Force, that just so happened to be in the area doing touch and goes. Is that this plane we're looking at on TV?

DUNNAN: It is possible. We do have to take another look at it and confirm that information with the FAA to get the latest on that.

But from our understanding, what we know is that there was actually this C-21 that was doing touch and goes, which, again, Brooke, that's part of training when it comes to piloting a plane.

BALDWIN: OK. And, Tory, just bring us, as people are tuning in and watching these live pictures, bring us back up to speed also as far as you've been in touch with the FAA. What have they confirmed with you?

DUNNAN: So what the FAA has confirmed at this point is that this was a Lear jet 45, that there are reported problems with the landing gear door and it's possible that they could be troubleshooting the problem. And their goal is to come into the airport.

There is, of course, this potential for an emergency landing, which, Brooke, is why we have seen those ambulances on the tarmac there, the four different ambulances, also the emergency crews ready.

And if you take a look at kind of the overhead picture here, what you'll notice is there is really not a lot of traffic beyond, again, that one military aircraft, the Air Force C-21 doing the touch and goes there. Potentially they have cleared this area to make way for what could be an emergency landing.

BALDWIN: Miles, is that what they might do if people obviously -- air traffic control tower, very well aware, that they have a possible crash landing scenario at this particular airport? Would that make sense to then clear other air traffic away so they can focus on this one plane?

O'BRIEN: Yes. When the time comes, when that particular plane comes in, they will certainly clear out a hunk of airspace for he or she to do a landing, but there is no reason to shut down the airport right this moment. It is -- does add to the confusion a little bit when you see a U.S. Air Force C-21 which is (inaudible) 35, doing touch and goes.

And we have a Lear 45 supposedly that is having landing gear trouble. So obviously a source of confusion.

BALDWIN: Here's one other question, Tory, you brought up from the fact from the FAA, saying that there was a problem with the landing gear door. Then we're hearing from the airport that it was a nose gear problem. Is it both? Which is it?

DUNNAN: You know, I think we're just going to have to sort of wait and see, Brooke. In this type of situation, they're obviously trying to troubleshoot and figure out exactly what's wrong with the landing gear.

I do want to mention this really quick, though, this is from CNN affiliate KTVI, we're told from our affiliate that their chopper is going to St. Louis Lambert Field. They believe that the plane in trouble is going to be diverted there instead.

Again, we're working to confirm all this information, but that is from our CNN affiliate that it is possible the plane in trouble that could be making that emergency landing has moved to a different airport, which is why we may not have seen a lot of action around here.

BALDWIN: And, Miles, just to get your reaction from that, why would a plane not try to land on a perfectly good tarmac at an airport? Why divert and go to a field?

O'BRIEN: Well, in this case, concrete is your friend. And there is more of it at Lambert Field. So you've got a runway there at St. Louis Downtown, which is approximately, just looking right here, it is about 7,000 feet in length. Lambert Field, not only would it -- might have additional -- might have additional crash readiness capability, but it has runways that extend beyond 11,000 feet.

So, you know, that's a significant added bit of pad, if you will, whenever you're doing a landing like this. You want to have as much space as you can.

BALDWIN: I got it. OK, so I'm not as familiar with my St. Louis airports. So this is the major -- this is the major St. Louis airport, is at the St. Louis Lambert Field airport.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. So -- and you've got lots of big, long runways there. Normally the -- you know St. Louis Downtown that we have been looking at would be more than ample for the Lear 45, but in a situation like this, given the infrastructure they have, as far as long runways and potentially the capability they have for crash response with their vehicles there, it might be wise to go there.

If I were a pilot, I would do the same.

BALDWIN: OK. Miles, stand by.

Tory, stand by.

I want to bring in Mike Brooks, who I know is working his BlackBerry as I'm bringing him in here. Our law enforcement analyst who works at our sister network, HLN. So you, as far as what's going on on the ground, now we just learned -- this is according to our affiliate KTVI, that this plane, this Lear jet 45 is headed from this smaller airport to the massive St. Louis Airport, presumably to myriad ambulances on the ground there as well.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN ANALYST: Right. Again, they have a better aircraft rescue firefighting capability ,as Miles was pointing out, because it's a larger -- it's a larger runway.

BALDWIN: Concrete is their friend, I believe is what Miles said.

BROOKS: That's exactly right. And you know, and as they're flying around, burning off that fuel, you don't want to have, number one, as Miles pointed out, weight and also the possibility of any kind of fire.

But going to Lambert Field in St. Louis, it is a larger airport, major airport, because where we saw them flying around, where we have been watching for the last number of minutes, you've only -- I only saw four fire apparatus there. And if I was the pilot and then I had a jet and I was coming in, I would want the best aircraft rescue firefighting capability possible and a longer runway.

That means Lambert Field.

BALDWIN: Have you ever seen something like this in person, a landing such as this?

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: Yes. Yes, I have.

BALDWIN: How -- what happens? I mean, I know each landing is different. But what has happened?

BROOKS: There is a possibility, because it is a larger field, they have got to clear out the airspace of Lambert Field and there is a possibility also that, if they do decide to come in -- because you're asking about the front nose gear and we're talking about the door, two separate problems -- but that -- but the front nose gear does have a door.

So when the nose gear comes up, the door is closed. It comes down, the door is open. So that could be one of the issues they're dealing with.

BALDWIN: I see.

BROOKS: And one of the things they could also possibly do as a preventive measure on the firefighting side is to foam the runway to give -- to have foam there, just in case you do come in, there is a problem with the possibility of fire, that would be -- it is a fire retardant and that would help. I've seen that done a number of times, you know, (inaudible) assistant fire chief, volunteer chief of Fairfax County, Virginia. And taken -- I've taken training in aircraft rescue firefighting. BALDWIN: Do we know, Miles O'Brien, you know planes -- I know you seem to know aviation pretty intimately, Mike Brooks -- but, Miles, where within this particular kind of plane, this Lear jet 45, is the gas tank?

O'BRIEN: Well, it is mostly in the wings. You know, they call them wet wings.

And so that, you know, you want to make sure that -- it is an abundance of caution. The fact is that, you know, if this pilot performs a nice, smooth landing, it is not going to breach the fuel tank and cause a fire.

Having said that --

BALDWIN: That was my question, yes.

O'BRIEN: -- less weight is better for sure. And less fuel is always better than more.

So -- and (inaudible) it does provide the flight crew an opportunity, while in the air, to troubleshoot the problem and see if they can rectify it. So there is really no good reason to rush these things until the fuel light starts to go on and tells you you're short on fuel, in which case then you need to get -- bring it down to the ground, one way or the other.

BALDWIN: In which case the fuel light going on in this situation may be a good thing, because that means, right, that they don't have as much fuel; you say it's best to have a lighter plane, lessens the -- perhaps the, I don't know, the likelihood of a fire in the wings.

Mike, if you are EMS, if you are St. Louis firefighters, you are rushing to Lambert Field, perhaps you're already there.

BROOKS: Oh, they're already there.

BALDWIN: They're there. They have ambulances ready to roll. What then is procedure for them?

BROOKS: Well, they have a basic procedure that they do all the time, whether it be here at Hartsfield Jackson with the Atlanta Fire Department; they do it on a daily basis They'll get someone with a hydraulic problem, that problem could be like this, and they respond out with their vehicles and their EMS units.

If they believe, in fact, that they cannot get that down and they are going to have to do an emergency landing -- don't like to say crash landing, but emergency landing -- then they'll take additional procedures, have additional apparatus, additional EMS resources that will respond and they'll be right alongside the airport, the runway, as the plane lands.

BALDWIN: Tory, let me bring you back in here. I understand you have some new information. Go ahead.

DUNNAN: Right. Sort of the question I had here was actually for Miles as well.

Can you tell us a little bit about how landing at that airport at Lambert Field versus the other one, is it more difficult because there is more air traffic in the area, possibly more planes on the ground there? Tell us a little bit more about the decision to land there.

O'BRIEN: Well, yes, when you're in a situation like this, and you've got a landing gear problem, you've declared an emergency, you can trump Air Force one. So you don't worry about traffic. You're going to go in whenever you say I need to begin my approach. And air traffic control will make that happen for you.

So, while in the end this might cause a little bit of delay for the air traffic that goes in and out of Lambert, in this case, I don't think it will be too drastic because, as we say, it is not like he's circling directly above the airport right now; the airport will remain open until such time as he begins his approach. And then they would clear off some space for him.

Potentially, of course, if, in fact, the plane is disabled, for whatever reason, and does, in fact, not have good landing gear, it might close a runway for a little while. So it will cause a little ripple of delay, but, again, this is an issue that, when you're talking about the lives of eight passengers and the two crew, that obviously trumps that.

BALDWIN: Miles, it's Brooke. How often do you have emergency landings on any given day at an airport?

O'BRIEN: Oh, there are quite a few we don't hear about, you know, and there are a lot of situations where, you know, air traffic control expedites airplanes for various problems, you know, various sensors come on, lights indicating that an engine is running hot and a crew might declare an emergency as a result of that. We just don't hear about a lot of them. This kind of situation tends to draw a crowd because there's -- not only do we hear about them, but we have time to kind of witness it all happen.

BALDWIN: OK. Stay with me. We're approaching the bottom of the hour. And I just want to reset what we're looking at. I know we're just looking at sky right now. This is perhaps in between these two different airports. We are watching a possible emergency landing situation involving a Lear jet 45.

The issue, according to the FAA, there are issues with a landing gear door. We're also hearing specifically from this airport saying it is a nose gear problem. We don't know if those are two different issues. Perhaps it is a landing gear door within the nose of this plane that could be the issue.

And so this pilot -- and we know there are eight people on board this particular plane; I was talking to the airport initially, it was trying to land at St. Louis Downtown Airport, and Diane Earhart (ph) jumped on the phone with me. She confirmed this was not a military plane. It is not a government plane. This is a private jet. And so now we learn from our affiliate KTVI that this plane has now decided to go from this smaller airport, St. Louis Downtown Airport, to the big major airport in St. Louis, that being Lambert Field.

I've got Miles O'Brien with me, aviation expert; CNN's aviation expert Tory Dunnan; Mike Brooks talking law enforcement, law enforcement analyst with me here.

And, Tory, let's just begin with you as we are resetting and as we are awaiting the next steps for this plane, tell me what you know.

DUNNAN: So the next steps, of course -- this according to the FAA saying that, of course they might be troubleshooting this issue. And that is sort of something that Miles had touched on earlier saying, you know, why it might be taking a while for us to actually see this plane.

The fact that there are all these different elements here, there is a crew of two from what we know. This is a Lear jet 45, so possibly the pilot is trying to work out the situation here and the airport preparing as well.

We know at the previous airport they had ambulances on the tarmac there, getting ready. Obviously it is going to be the same case at this St. Louis Lambert Field. So for right now, we're all sort of in a wait-and-see mode as the pilots are talking to air traffic controllers and trying to figure out best course of action in dealing with the problem at hand, Brooke.

DUNNAN: We have -- thank you, Tory.

We have Dan Gourd (ph) on the phone now. Dan is a commercial airline pilot.

And, Dan, full transparency, you have never flown one of these Lear jets, but you have been involved in emergency landings. So tell me, if you are the pilot on board this plane, what are you doing likely right at this moment?

DAN GOURD (PH), AIRLINE PILOT: Hi, Brooke. Well, you know, this has been going on for a short while right now. And really when something goes wrong up there, the first thing that you do is you reference your emergency checklist and you start trying to determine whether the problem is actual, whether it is an indication, whether it is something else.

And obviously the pilot is going to spend a good amount of time trying to do that. But at this point it sounds like they made the decision to go ahead and land at Lambert St. Louis, which has a longer runway than Cahokia (ph), St. Louis Downtown Airport that they were looking at.