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Defense Tries to Rehabilitate Arias

Aired March 4, 2013 - 20:00   ET



JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: He was trying to kill me, so I was defending myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He places his penis in your vagina when you`re asleep, right?


I don`t know that he was really, like, mentally conscious or not. He was there, he was breathing hard, that kind of thing, but he didn`t say anything, and it was never mentioned the next day. So I assumed maybe -- I don`t know, maybe he wasn`t fully aware of what he was doing.

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: There`s been many times when you`ve been, like, miserable (ph), and I`ve, like, raped you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you had fantasies about being raped by Mr. Alexander?

ARIAS: Not raped, maybe, like, ravished.


ARIAS: We were kicking around ideas what we might do. I hope that was fantasy because I don`t think I would have gone for that. He asked me to find a place that would be good where we could do that, and so I hiked around a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could we see you recreate the pose we see in exhibit 452? And if you could turn -- OK, thank you.

You finish this note to him by saying, I love you. (INAUDIBLE) today.





NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. After a scathing cross-examination by the state, now it`s all on the defense. Can they rehabilitate Jodi Arias on redirect? And what a day it has been in the courtroom!

Everybody, thank you for being with us. We are camped here outside the courthouse. Straight out to Jean Casarez. It`s been quite a day in the courtroom, the defense even getting Jodi Arias back down off the witness stand again.

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Another demonstration in front of the jury, you`re right. You know, Nancy, today Jodi Arias was the victim again. She was soft, demure, quiet, everything we saw on direct, everything we didn`t see on cross-examination.

But Nancy, listen to this. Before the jury even entered this morning, I saw Jodi Arias come into the courtroom. She sat in her seat. I saw her take her own hand and lower her chair, and it lowered fast. It was like, Boom, she`s down. And she was much lower than her defense attorneys.

GRACE: So she did that all on her own.

CASAREZ: All on her own. She knew where the lever was. She pushed it, and down she went.

GRACE: You know, that`s -- it`s incredible to me that she would actually do that in open court with everyone watching her.

Everyone, we are taking your calls. We`re camped outside the courthouse here in Phoenix. It`s been a hot day on the outside, as well as in the courtroom.

Jean, why did the defense bring her down off the stand again? The last time they did that, it was devastating when she actually kind of reenacted the moment she murdered Travis Alexander.

CASAREZ: And this all had to do about her finger, her left finger. And remember, on cross-examination, the picture was shown with she and her sister, and that photo was taken on May 15. And the prosecutor showed, Look at that normal finger you have. It wasn`t broken on January 22nd by Travis Alexander.

So she demonstrated in court today, putting her arm around her female defense lawyer, who`s about the height of her sister, to show a seemingly normal finger, and then went back to the stand and showed the jury an abnormal-looking finger as she held it up.

GRACE: OK, I don`t understand that. I mean, to me, it just shows that she can straighten her finger whenever she wants to. I don`t understand.

CASAREZ: But -- well, I think what the defense is trying to show and the prosecutor is trying to show is it wasn`t broken by Travis on January 22nd. It was broken on June 4th, 2008, when you murdered Travis Alexander. And you`d think the defense would go that way saying, I was fighting for my life and he broke my finger. But they`re not because they want it to be the cycle of violence, of domestic violence that had happened on January 22nd. And that photo right there shows that by the prosecution that it was a normal finger on May 15th.

GRACE: OK, let`s take a listen to what went down in the courtroom -- the whole finger, Jodi Arias giving the courtroom the finger treatment again. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you remember the date that that photograph took place?

ARIAS: May 15, 2008.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I recall correctly, that`s you and your sister, Angela, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is your hand around her, right?

ARIAS: That`s right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would concede that there`s no visible bend in your finger, at least in terms of any injury, correct?

ARIAS: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could we see you, for lack of a better term, recreate the pose we see in exhibit 452? If you could turn -- OK, thank you.

You finish this note to him by saying, I love you. On June 15th or 16th of 2008, did you still feel that same unconditional love, to use your words, for Travis that you were feeling in April of 2008?

ARIAS: Well, I still had love for him, yes, and I was thinking now more in terms of eternity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking at that quote, I love you -- how about the days in between June 4, 2008, and his memorial service? Would that be true?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about today?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would that be true?

ARIAS: Yes, it`s still true.


GRACE: Out to you, Matt Zarrell, also on the story. Matt, so basically, she`s saying at the time she murdered him -- stabbing him 29 times, slashing his throat, ear to ear -- I loved you unconditionally when I murdered you? That`s what she`s saying? How does that help the defense?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, the whole point was it actually hurt the defense because they were bringing it up in regards to text messages that Arias had sent Travis in April, saying that she loved him, and she explained that she loved him unconditionally during that time all the way leading up to his death on June 4, 2008, just a few months later.

GRACE: OK, could you repeat, Matt? I couldn`t hear you.

ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, what they`re saying is that this is all about a text message on April 18th, 2008, where Arias sent text messages to Travis saying that she loved him and she cared about him and all of this. And she`s asked about this love and this text message and she`s asked to describe the love, and is it unconditional? She says, Yes, it`s unconditional love I had for him. And that love did not change until the memorial service, where she said the love was more for eternity.

GRACE: OK. So now we`ve shifted into eternal love. OK, love postmortem. All right, I need a shrink. Caryn Stark, help me out here. She`s saying -- see, in my mind, when I listen to Jodi Arias, Caryn, it seems to me like she`s still in her own mind dating him, the way she talks about, Oh, we picked out the name Iris to name a little girl if we ever had one together, and Travis wanted me to wear this and Travis wanted me to wear that.

It`s almost as if she`s still caught up in her same cycle with Travis Alexander even in death.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s hard to understand, Nancy, what her reality is because she doesn`t come across in any way that makes sense. It`s a travesty, really, because she loved him so much that she kept stabbing him? Did that -- did she stab him with her love? Did she shoot him with her love? She`s saying he abused her but she loves him. She still loves him. It`s for eternity.

You can`t really pay attention to what she says. She`s a chameleon. She just changes from situation to situation and is just trying to get somebody to sympathize with her so she doesn`t have to die.

GRACE: You know, another question -- first of all, unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of Miami, Eric Schwartzreich. Out of Atlanta, defense attorney Penny Douglas Furr.

Eric, do you think it`s wise to continue bringing the defendant down to stand in front of the jury?

I don`t see the lawyers. There they are.

Eric, because here`s my thinking. We now know because Jean saw her do it -- we know that it`s Arias herself that screws her chair down to look even smaller than her female defense lawyer. But now that they`ve seen her standing -- give me that shot, Liz, please -- of her standing with the defense lawyer, you see their relative heights.

So I don`t know if it really ever helps to bring your client down off the stand and get them to stand in front of the jury. I loved it as a prosecutor when the defendant would get in front of the jury because then they could see their size, their shape, their strength, anything about them.

And see, right there, you see she`s taller than the defense attorney. But when they`re seated, they look the opposite.

ERIC SCHWARTZREICH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I don`t normally agree with you, but on this case, I will agree with you only in part, Nancy. I do think what we have here is they`re trying to fight cancer with a cold remedy. This isn`t -- as you know, it`s not a whodunnit. It`s a why shedunnit. Everything is calculated, Nancy, from lowering that chair in the courtroom to her hair, her appearance, to getting her on that stand.

And if you remember, like, the O.J. Simpson -- we had the Fuhrman moment. I`m not saying this is a Fuhrman moment when those tapes were played, but when she`s there and she`s showing that finger and it`s wrapped (ph), and it`s not broken, it kind of undid a little bit what Martinez chose to bring up on cross-examination yesterday.

So they were very effective in their redirect examination. I think they`re scoring points, Nancy. It`s a very difficult case. But they`re doing everything they can.

GRACE: You know, Penny, I`m going to throw that to you, what Schwartzreich just said, Penny, because frankly, what it shows to me is that when she wants her finger bent -- like she held it up a week ago like this in front of the jury. But then when she stood in front of them today, it looked straightened out.

Bottom line, it says to me that when she wants it to look bent, it looks bent, and when she wants it to look straight, it looks straight. To me, it just looks as if the whole thing is rigged.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with you on that. I would leave the finger alone. I think there are different sides to this...

GRACE: I agree, Penny.

FURR: ... and if I`m the defense -- I think the defense -- what the defense wants to do is try to find one juror that likes her. They`re just trying to humanize her, and they`re trying to get her in front of the jury. All they need is one juror that likes her enough that they are not willing to send her to the death chamber. I don`t think this is about guilty or not guilty. It`s about keeping her alive.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He also says, "There have been many times when you have been miserable, like, miserable, and I`ve, like, raped you." Is that fantasy or reality?

ARIAS: That`s reality, but he doesn`t mean, like -- like, rape, like, how the law defines it, I don`t think.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have fantasies about being raped by Mr. Alexander?

ARIAS: Not raped, just maybe, like, ravished or something. But not raped, I wouldn`t say.


GRACE: OK, this is just wrong because what they`re doing right there, everybody, is the defense was allowed during one of these episodes where, frankly, Arias gets Travis Alexander to talk about his sex fantasies or their sex fantasies -- she says it was their mutual sex fantasies on cross- examination. But what they did today -- it`s my understanding, Alexis, explain to me how you perceived it -- they were showing that to the jury, only showing Travis`s side of the texting, but the messages they weren`t showing -- I mean, how was that allowed?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy. So these were snippets of Travis Alexander and Jodi Arias engaging in this phone sex conversation that we`ve heard so many times, and the jury was shown only the texts of the words that Travis said. So the majority of what we heard came out of Travis`s mouth. And there were a couple times there where Arias, we heard her speak, but her words were not shown on that prompter with the text in big words across all for the jury to see.

GRACE: Well, to me, you know, it would be impossible for her to now tell a jury she felt as though she were being, as she said, ravished when she went along or instigated, one or the other, every single sex episode they had.

And so we`re back on the sex with Jodi Arias on redirect. I`ve got to say that I was expecting, I guess, a bombshell on behalf of the defense. And here`s a question a lot of you have been asking. Is there a chance for the prosecution to do re-cross-examination?

Now, here`s the status of the law in Arizona, as we understand it, that it is to the discretion -- up to the discretion of the trial judge if there is re-cross-examination. Now, Maricopa County does not always allow it. So their local rules are different to the Arizona rules. But I believe that this judge could allow re-cross if she wanted to, all right? So it is allowed in the state of Arizona at the discretion of the trial judge.

We are taking your calls. Let`s go out to Terry. Hi, Terry. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Absolutely love your show. Two parts about the gun. The first is...

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Jodi says the gun is in the desert. We know it`s not there. And I have a question. Did she throw a large bouquet of roses into the grave that`s large enough to conceal a knife and a small handgun?

Second thing is, if she is so determined to tell us that that was his gun, then why is she and her team not out there scouring the so-called desert to find it, if it would actually vindicate her?

GRACE: You know, that`s a really -- hold on. I`m making a note of what you just said, Terry. Why isn`t the defense looking for the gun? You know what`s interesting? I recall in all the many years that I prosecuted felonies, the defense would always say to somebody on the stand, Well, Mr. Officer, you didn`t go get So-and-So. You didn`t subpoena this. You didn`t go locate this, did you?

And I would fire it right back at the defense because they have subpoena power. They have investigation power. If they wanted that gun -- you`re absolutely right, Terry. If they wanted that gun to show it was not her grandparents`, they could be out there looking for the gun, but they`re not, are they? That`s a very good point.

And I`m now hearing that in addition to Jean Casarez and Beth Karas and Alexis Weed with me here at the courthouse is Beth. Beth, let me go to you. I was expecting more of a bombshell from the defense on redirect. What was your takeaway?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, they`re doing exactly what we thought they would do, focusing attention on what they say is Travis Alexander`s sexual deviancy and this alleged pedophilia and these instances of abuse, physical abuse against Arias because if those two things are believed, I mean, that`s her defense, and then her experts will explain her conduct in that context.

But if the jury doesn`t believe pedophilia, doesn`t believe domestic violence, her defense is gone. She doesn`t really have self-defense here. So they have to attack this.

And just a few minutes ago, she started talking about her diary entries, explaining she would never say anything negative in her journal. That`s why there`s nothing in there about domestic violence and pedophilia.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You write that, "Travis, you`re beautiful on the inside and out." Did you mean that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you also say, "You always told me that." Did Travis tell you that you were beautiful on the inside and out, as well? Is that what you`re saying there?

ARIAS: Yes, he said I was more beautiful on the inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that made you feel good about yourself?



GRACE: I`m still getting tons of e-mails and phone calls right now. We`re going to go to your calls. But Jean Casarez, Beth Karas, Alexis Weed, all three of them not only reporting on the case with me here at the courthouse in Phoenix, they`re all three lawyers, as well. I mean, Beth Karas, you`ve tried plenty of felony cases.

Jean, the reality about cross-examination, every lawyer you ask here, they give you a different answer. So we looked it up in the criminal procedure code of Arizona and it says it`s up to the judge. What do you know about Maricopa County?

CASAREZ: That is what I`ve learned, that it is up to the judge. I haven`t heard that the conducive (ph) rule that it is never allowed, in (ph) fact. I`ve heard that if something new is brought up, that the prosecutor can then ask the judge if there can be a re-cross situation, and it is up to the judge.

GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, something new has already been brought up, technically speaking, and that is the demonstration that she did with her defense lawyer where she straightened out her finger. And I know you and Beth are talking about, Well, this day she broke her finger, then, no, not this day. But what it says to me, it says she can straighten out her finger whenever she wants to.

OK, we`re taking calls. And also, out to you, Beth Karas. Isn`t it true that the defense has subpoena power? If they want investigative power, if they wanted to go find that gun, they could do it just as well or better than the police because they`ve got Arias to tell them where to go?

KARAS: True. And now, she`s driving in the desert at night, and she never did say how long she was in the car before she threw the gun out. She threw it out in a place different from the rope, she says she threw in a dumpster when she changed her clothes and cleaned herself up because her hands were bloody. But she never did say where and they didn`t try to pin her down.

GRACE: Well, what`s so amazing to me, Matt Zarrell, is her demeanor. Her demeanor on redirect -- I mean, it`s like she`s at a bridal shower or a quilting bee down at the local Baptist church sipping tea. I mean, it`s completely different from who she was on cross-examination.

ZARRELL: I think this is part of the biggest -- biggest, strongest part of the state`s case here is her demeanor. She was so difficult and combative on cross-examination, as opposed to being weak but detailed on direct. And now we`re back to being weak and frail but very detailed.



ALEXANDER: Just think of how -- how I pounded you with a full Tootsie Roll pop until it was nothing!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I believe you said that you had enjoyed aspects of that encounter, is that correct?

ARIAS: That would be correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Which aspects did you enjoy?

ARIAS: Well, I think we used bubbles that time with the bath, so I enjoyed that. I guess the tootsie pop was just for fun. I enjoyed his attention. I didn`t really like the pop rocks as much. How he wanted to use them, so that was probably one of the two or three hour things he was talking about, because it lasted a while. There was some physical pleasure, I guess. It wasn`t uncomfortable or anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What other pleasure did you derive from that?

ARIAS: His attention, I guess. It sounds simple, but it was just about -- we shut the door, and it was our own space, and it was just our time together, so I enjoyed that.


GRACE: Jodi Arias on the stand on redirect. A lot of us were expecting a bombshell by the defense to help rehabilitate Jodi Arias after a scathing cross-examination. That did not happen. It`s second verse same as the first. Jodi Arias is now quiet, demure, poised, tearful on the stand with a great memory as opposed to the days on cross-exam where she seemingly couldn`t remember a thing and was combative to boot.

Out to you, Jean Casarez, back to Terry`s first question, the memorial that Jodi Arias went to, was there an opportunity for her to throw anything into the burial scene, into the coffin or casket?

CASAREZ: Not that I know of, but I know she was meeting and greeting a lot of people, and it was used in court today to emphasize the love that she continued to have in many various forms, and they`re trying to get out the premeditation or the intent to kill before this jury.

GRACE: You know what, back to the shrink, Caryn Stark. Every time I keep hearing Jean Casarez or Beth Karas talking about how she -- they`re rephrasing what she said or quoting it, talking about her love, her unconditional love for Travis, to me there`s just something that`s gut wrenching, it is almost sickening when I hear that, because I think of what I believe to be a true love, like my love for my children, my twins. Or my mom and dad or my husband. And when I think of this unconditional -- she is spouting off about unconditional love, it just almost seems -- it just seems wrong on so many levels. I mean, when I think of her pulling his head back and cutting him ear to ear, and then talking in court about her unconditional love for this guy?

STARK: You`re right, Nancy. This is not about love. She is not an authentic person. She doesn`t have real feelings. And so you`re feeling disturbed because it`s not -- it`s not coming from a real place.

Most of us are authentic. We have a part of us that makes sense. She doesn`t have real emotions, except for her own fear, fear for her safety.

GRACE: Here is a question I`m getting, all you legal eagles, from Randy. He says the jury can ask questions. Explain what type of questions they can ask and who they can ask the questions to, who they can ask the questions to.

So out to you, Jean, to whom do they ask the questions and what kind of questions are allowed and who makes objections?

CASAREZ: They can ask the questions of the witness, so, in this case, they`ll be asking questions of Jodi Arias. Not all may be allowed. They have to be relevant. Can`t be hearsay as answers. The judges have a sidebar. They go through all the questions, and it`s the judge that determines what questions are allowed. And then either side can add supplemental questions to the jury`s questions.

GRACE: OK. So it ain`t over yet. Again, Jean, who addresses Arias with the questions, who verbalizes the questions in court?

CASAREZ: It`s the judge. The judge. The judge asks her the questions.

GRACE: OK. So there`s your answer, Randy.

OK. Joining me right now out of Washington, D.C., is Aaron Brehove, body language expert, instructor at the Body Language Institute, author of "Knack Body Language." Aaron, thanks for being with us. You`ve been watching her. You watched her on direct, on cross, and now on redirect. What have you learned?

AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, we see somebody that always wants to have control of the situation. Even with her own lawyer, she is still correcting little pieces of the story, and it`s really unusual.

The one thing that I saw that really struck me today was she said, if that makes sense, when she was referring to her love for Travis and the way that it made her feel good to make him feel good. She said, well, if that makes sense. And if you have a strong emotional feeling, I don`t think you`re going to say, well, if that makes sense. You`ve been through a few situations yourself where you might have been devastated by your loss of your late fiance. I don`t think you`d say, I`m devastated, if that makes sense. It struck me as so odd. And I think there`s so much here that really is odd about this testimony, odd about how she is carrying herself.

GRACE: You know, Beth, there was one of her journal entries, all of my darkness is the result of my own creation. Well, amen to that, sister. What did she mean by that?

KARAS: You know, I don`t know. I don`t understand these journal entries because she talks out of both sides of her mouth. This is her personal journal, but now she says that Travis would read it, and that, among Mormons, it was customary to keep journals for posterity`s sake, so they are meant to be read. And she also said she never put anything negative in her journals about Travis. That`s why there`s no mention of pedophilia or domestic violence against her, because of the law of attraction. If she were actually were to write down something negative, then it would bring negativity back to her. She looked at the jury and she described the law of attraction to them, about how everything vibrates down to the atomic level, and she went on and on describing it in this narrative about the law of attraction. So that`s why there`s nothing negative in it, yet she did have negative stuff in there that she said she ripped out. That was in a different part of her testimony.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, was there anything today, because in my estimation yet another demonstration backfired. But that`s just me. But was there anything that really helped her? Did we learn anything new, or did the defense attorneys just stir the pot some more?

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, I think that it`s a total preview of the experts, the defense experts putting this all together. So I do think that was just a replay, a reemphasis of her the victim in every way. But we saw pictures that we had never seen before of her finger from May 31st or June 1st of 2008. She said when she was at work at Casa Ramos, not Margaritaville (ph), that the margarita glasses are very hot when they`re taken out of the dishwasher, and she was rearranging them. They must have metal on them. And she didn`t clarify, but it`s like she burned her finger and skin came up, but we saw a photograph in the courtroom of a very injured finger, of course, this is the right hand and it`s the right index finger.

GRACE: OK, well, right there is something new that would give -- that`s a peg for the prosecution to hang their hat to get another recross- examination between that new photo, and, to my mind, is this a new story? Have I heard this story yet about her burning her finger?

CASAREZ: Well, she didn`t say burn. I`m saying burn, because it really wasn`t clear, but the photograph to me looked like a burned finger. We heard about the incident. We heard about it was at the Mexican restaurant where she worked. The first time we saw the picture today. The first time we heard the date. And she took it because she was going to send it out to her friends, because she thought, oh, man, what a klutz am I, but then after June 4th, she said it just really didn`t matter anymore.

GRACE: OK. So, now, what is this, the fourth or fifth story I`m hearing about this injury, these injuries to her hands?

CASAREZ: She has hurt a finger multiple times. January 22nd, it was broken, that`s the left hand, the ring finger. May 31st, June 1st, right hand, index finger. And then June 4th when she got to Travis` home, in the early hours of the morning, she dropped a glass and broke it and cut the right hand again.


GRACE: After weeks of seemingly irrelevant, innocuous testimony from Jodi Arias on the stand, finally this week we get to the day that Travis Alexander was slaughtered, slaughtered in his own shower. Her story begins to veer almost out of control, and what I mean by that is that she is starting to catch herself in one inconsistency after the next. That`s what happens when you talk too much. Let me tell you this, Arias` lawyers better be worried about cross exam. They`ve taken a very big gamble putting her on the stand. I don`t believe it`s going to pay off for them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall if you had any other injuries to your hand?

ARIAS: In Utah?


ARIAS: I did. I had Band-Aids on my right hand. I don`t think it was the index finger. I think there were other fingers, I don`t remember, but I know I had Band-Aids on my right hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now the Band-Aids on your right hand, you said may not have been your index finger, was this -- were these injuries caused by the same incident at Casa Ramos or were they caused by something else?

ARIAS: Something else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what was that?

ARIAS: It was broken glass. I dropped one of Travis` glasses when I was downstairs, when I arrived the morning of June 4th. We were getting water from his -- he has a cold water dispenser on his fridge, so I was getting water, and I dropped one, and I was cleaning up the glass because I thought I`m going to clean up glass at work and it`s not something I`m uncomfortable with, so I guess I was being too casual and careless, and I cut my hand, my fingers.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are camped out live here at the courthouse bringing you the very latest. The temperatures soaring here in Phoenix and in that courtroom, too.

I have got to tell you, Jodi Arias is back on the stand. This is her attorney`s decision to put her back on the stand on redirect examination. Now here is the question. Is she being rehabilitated, or is she giving the jury even more of a sour taste in their mouth? We are taking your calls. And right now I want to go out to our legal eagle, Bill, in Florida. Hi, Bill, what do you think so far of the redirect?

CALLER: Well, I tell you what, Nancy, I have a notebook. I`ve been on this trial as if I was a prosecutor. I`m going to try to keep this to just a few points because I know I don`t have the time like you do. But being we`re talking about the memorial, the memorial service, do you know that Jodi actually asked Aaron, who is Travis` best friend, to drive her to the crime scene. On the way to the crime scene, she actually asked Aaron, can we stop by Travis` house? I would like to see it one more time.

That`s like returning to the scene of the crime for a psychopath.

Now, not only that, but when she was having -- when she was being grilled by Flores, she even went over the crime scene photos very carefully. She liked to see her work.

Now I believe this, also. Jodi had two stories planned to tell in this trial, and that is why she was talking about the chihuahua shaking thing. Have you noticed how she`s been under very serious stress on the stand, and I have not even seen her even flutter, not even shake like a chihuahua. And if she had a chihuahua shaking defense, she would use it.

I believe what she was going to say at first was that they went into the shower, she was taking his picture, and he brought the knife in there from cutting the rope, and he got mad at her, I think -- this is what I expected her to say. That he jumped out of the shower to grab the knife, and they fought over it, and she started shaking like a chihuahua, and stabbed him. That might have made more sense than her saying he climbed out, she was body slammed, and that is another thing, Nancy. I would love it if they could actually get her off the stand like they did yesterday and say, Jodi, would you please demonstrate how he body slammed you, did he scoop you up from between the crotch, lift you over his shoulders and slam you? Because that`s really what a body slam is. On to the tile (ph). Because lots of people I`m hearing online are saying, well, she probably just meant she was pushed. She said body slammed, and that is a very vicious, vicious attack.

Now, I`m going to mention one other thing to you. Her, I feel bad for Jodi`s family, because I know her little brother is now lashing out online. Her brother actually posted a poem online that reads this, I`m going to read it to you. This is from Joey Arias -- Joey Travis, I mean, Joey Arias. He wrote, "the lips of an immoral woman are sweet as honey. Her mouth is as smooth as oil, but in the end she will be bittersweet like poison and a double-edged sword."

Now, when her brother posts something like that at this moment, it kind of makes me think that he`s being bullied, and maybe, he`s, you know, he knows. He also posted on his Facebook for the whole world to read. He said the reason why my sister taped the phone conversation about the sex was to just scare off Travis` future girlfriends, and that is it. He actually admits it.

Nancy, what I would love for you to do if you could, I would like for you to be able to get Bryan Carr on the phone one day and Jake, and let me have a 10-minute panel on the phone with him. And I swear Bryan Carr knows more --

GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact -- as a matter of fact, Bill in Florida, Bryan Carr is with us. And when we get back, I am going to let you ask him a couple of questions. Are you up for it?



ARIAS: It made me feel good to make him feel good, and also when I was making him feel good, he had all of his attention focused on me, so I feel like it was still, you know, like a trade-off, kind of. I mean, like, I liked the way I felt when he was focused on me that way, and I like the way I felt --


GRACE: Everybody, we are live here at the courthouse and taking your calls. All right, Bryan Carr, friend of Jodi Arias, visits her in jail, believes she is innocent. Welcome, Bryan. All right, Bill, what`s your first question?

CALLER: Hi, Brian. I appreciate you calling in and everything. I have a question for you. I`m also a man, I know you`re a man, and I know you`ve taken to Jodi`s defense, and I`ve heard you say that you believe that maybe she just became overly aggressive and took it a little too far with the stabbing.

Can you honestly tell me after meeting Jodi that -- say you were in the shower and she were to attack you or anything, that you would not be able to fend her off or get her off of you unless you were, like, totally unaware of the fact that she was about to attack you? I mean, did you see the pictures of the nine stab wounds in his back that are so deep you could probably stick your forefingers through them? Have you seen the picture of his neck?

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Let him have a chance to respond. Go ahead, Bryan.

BRYAN CARR, FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: Yes, yes, I definitely have seen the stab wounds. Yes, I definitely agree. Jodi is 5`5. At the time of the killing, she was probably about 120 pounds. Travis is over 200 pounds. Yes, Travis could have fended her off. There is no way she could have dragged him. There is a thing in the Mormon faith -- she`s coming up with her own stories right now. She is coming up with her own stories. She is making her own thing for her safety right now.

There is a thing in the Mormon faith that`s called blood atonement (ph). And what they do, when someone sins, the Mormons come in there and they basically sacrifice, and the Mormons believe that this is basically their way to wash away their sins.

I honestly do not think -- Jodi is doing her own safety. There is whole -- there is proof on the Internet, there is proof everywhere about what these Mormons do. So I do not believe Jodi did that. She`s protecting herself because of her family. They will go after her family. Her second story is what`s true.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Shawn Mittler, 32, Austin, Texas. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, two Iraq Campaign Medals, parents Joyce and Terry, stepmother Lisa, sister Misty, brother Alex, widow Marisol (ph). Daughter Christine, son John. Shawn Mittler. American hero.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that accurate? A physical component to it, I should say.

ARIAS: Will you repeat -- please start over? I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why any contact at all?

ARIAS: I`m sorry?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why any contact at all? Do you remember placing him in the shower?

ARIAS: I`m sorry, that`s no.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are camped out here at the Arizona courthouse bringing you the latest in the Jodi Arias murder one trial. To Beth Karas. Beth, I was just listening to what Bill in Florida had to say. How deep were the wounds in Travis Alexander`s back, those nine stab wounds?

KARAS: You know, they did not go too far. She certainly was probably stabbing him very, very quickly, back of his head and his back, but they were not very deep. An inch, maybe, not even. I recall from the medical examiner`s testimony that the deep wound was the stab wound to his heart, and then the slit across his throat, which was 3.5 to 4 inches. It severed his airway and it went all the way back to his spinal cord.

GRACE: And yet today, she insists she had unconditional love for Travis Alexander the day she murdered him.

Everyone will be camped out here at the courthouse again tomorrow night taking your calls. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.