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Dr. Drew
Arias Courtroom Showdown
Aired March 13, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, it`s day 18, Jodi Arias on the stand. Is this the wildest reality show on television?
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: In 62 seconds, you get body slammed, you run down the hallway, you go in the closet, you grab a gun, you back up, you shoot Mr. Alexander, you pick up the camera, because that`s the only possibility, and he`s already down the hallway with his throat slit.
PINSKY: Or is it a bad rerun?
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: After the gun went off, things are starting to get -- my memory is, I don`t know, it starts to get a little bit more confusing.
PINSKY: A forensic expert who knows Jodi takes us back to the crime scene. And our human lie detector, who today was inside the courtroom, reads between the lines to reveal what Jodi and the jury might be thinking.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
And Nancy left us, Lisa, in that closet, where Jodi Arias supposedly jumped up and grabbed the gun. We`re going to get into those 62 seconds in great, great detail. I believe we have an embarrassment of riches here.
Although it is finally over, Lisa. Jodi Arias has finished her testimony, after a near 18 days on the stand, thank you -- just 18 days.
LISA BLOOM, CO-HOST: Unbelievable.
PINSKY: Unbelievable. My co-host, Lisa Bloom, from avo.com.
Also joined by attorney Mike Eiglarsh, he is with speaktomark.com.
And the human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me."
Janine was finally inside that courtroom today, watching all the players first hand. But you didn`t have to be there to feel the tension between Jodi Arias and the prosecutor. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTINEZ: Mr. Alexander is getting blasted, and is going down, he`s got the knife in his hand, right? Actually, ma`am, the way you describe that, it`s impossible for the killing to have happened in that manner, isn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative.
ARIAS: No. That`s according to you.
MARTINEZ: If that`s what you really believe, that would mean that after he body slammed you and you took off, he started looking at the camera, right?
ARIAS: If that was what I believed, but I didn`t say that`s what I believed.
MARTINEZ: It`s possible. You said it. If it`s possible that he picked up the camera, then that would require him to bend down, because it was on the ground, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Pick it up, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Look at it or do whatever he`s going to do with it, right?
ARIAS: I don`t know what he would do when he picked it up.
MARTINEZ: But we talked about the possibility and you agreed that it was possible, right?
ARIAS: Certainly possible.
MARTINEZ: And you were pointing it at him, right?
ARIAS: Yes, I did point it at him.
MARTINEZ: And there was a metal thing or a bullet that came out of it and it shot and hit him in the head. And you`re down there and trying to get away and you`re in stressful situation, for whatever reason, this is one of the times that your computer doesn`t freeze up.
ARIAS: Well, I don`t remember everything he was screaming.
MARTINEZ: Yes or no?
ARIAS: I don`t no if it was completely frozen.
MARTINEZ: You got up is and the fog started to come in, right?
ARIAS: I say the fog started to come in after the gunshot.
MARTINEZ: Fog doesn`t help you remember things does it? It`s not a good thing for your memory, is it?
ARIAS: Well, the way you described it isn`t accurate.
MARTINEZ: Well, I`m asking whether or not this fog that you`ve described for us, whether or not this fog enhances your ability or improves your ability to remember? Yes or no?
ARIAS: I was a little, like, discombobulated, because all my stuff was gone out of my backpack, and I thought, where is it? And so, they said it`s over, and I said, OK, and I just took it upstairs, because I needed to brush my teeth.
MARTINEZ: So, this discombobulated, is that the same thing as confused?
ARIAS: Somewhat, yes.
MARTINEZ: And you didn`t have a knife in your hand and you needed to go get it from somewhere, right?
ARIAS: I guess. I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: No, no, no. There`s no guessing here now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session," was at the courthouse today.
And, Lisa, under her breath, Beth before, I go to you, she said, during that tape, I love this prosecutor. I`ve heard lots of mixed reviews on him. How do you think he did today?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that Juan Martinez was on fire. And you know, I have described him as being -- I mean, extremely experienced in the courtroom. He`s tried about 300 cases. And he thinks outside of the box.
And he is at a level above anybody who was doing any analysis in this case. I mean, he is so far ahead in my opinion. He anticipates every scenario, he is up there.
He`s not looking at any notes. He`s having this conversation with her. He`s on fire. He is really a good prosecutor.
PINSKY: And, Beth, here`s Jodi`s response. Here`s -- I wrote some notes, what I heard from Jodi today was, I don`t know, my computer froze, I`ll take fog mark for 300. And the general note was, sort of, I know you are, but what am I?
BLOOM: The dog ate my homework.
PINSKY: Right. Mark, do you agree with that?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Drew, I love Beth Karas and I really agree with her and I love Lisa and I agree with her, generally --
BLOOM: Here comes the but!
EIGLARSH: But I cannot -- here`s the big but -- I cannot believe that you are giving this prosecutor the credit for her looking like the lying sociopath that she is. What he`s implemented is a technique solely that works on Matlock and Perry Mason. It`s barraging with -- he just asks a ton of questions, and at some point, I think he affects her to --
BLOOM: First of all, Mark --
EIGLARSH: -- to some how, let me finish, no, Kanye, don`t interrupt this time. No, no.
BLOOM: Wow!
EIGLARSH: There is no way that he can realistically expect, in the real world, that she`s going to come out like on these TV shows and say, OK, you got me! I murdered him!
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: She`s already said that, though!
BLOOM: Nobody has said that, I don`t know, Matlock, Perry Mason, before my time.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark, for the modern references. I appreciate that. My audience will love that.
BLOOM: Beth Karas, who was a very impressive former prosecutor in her own right, and has covered many, many trials, I`m going to go with Beth Karas. But I`m not saying also --
EIGLARSH: Can I ask you a question?
BLOOM: Let me make my point now.
EIGLARSH: You got it, go.
BLOOM: Not just -- not just because he makes Jodi Arias look bad, but because he is in command of that courtroom. He is on fire. He`s animated.
And he`s keeping her on the killing itself, which is the best part of this case for him.
PINSKY: Mark, finish up here. I`m going to go to Janine, who finally was in the courtroom. But go ahead, Mark. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: I will ask some questions in the style that I think that he should utilize. And that are leading questions. Beth and Lisa, don`t you believe that he would be more effective if he actually used notes?
The second question after you say yes would be --
BLOOM: No.
EIGLARSH: -- don`t you think that he should go subject by subject matter with leading questions, having her answer yes or no.
BLOOM: No, but he`s fouling her up this way. She`s at a complete loss.
KARAS: No.
EIGLARSH: She`s doing that on her own.
PINSKY: Hold on. Hang up! Hang on!
Janine, this is where you come in here. By the end of the day, she, to me, looked flustered and panicky and near tears and the only time we see her near tears is when she`s backed in the corner. Am I right about that?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Listen, yes, you are, Dr. Drew. It was crazy today. You could cut the tension with a knife. If you can see that at home, imagine what I was experiencing.
It was like Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory, you know? I was excited to be here, to see what was going on, to judge her, to look at the jury. And then every corner, someone else has like dropping another bomb. The kid shoots the purple gum and she explodes.
It was like exciting, intense. Every couple of seconds, I was like, gasping. It can`t get any worse.
A juror -- literally, a juror in the back, at one point, put his hand over his mouth, so mortified with Jodi Arias. It was unbelievable today. Unbelievable.
BLOOM: And that`s the jury is surely seeing this. It`s exciting.
EIGLARSH: Who`s getting the credit?
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: I think --
PINSKY: Mark?
EIGLARSH: No, no, no, a junior middle school debater could make her look bad, because she`s not believable and she`s not likable. The question is, why wouldn`t you ask leading questions, making sure that she answers yes, no, hit, move, and move on?
PINSKY: Mark, hang on. Lisa, Beth, I`ve heard that from other attorneys. You say, no. You say it`s more effective the way he`s doing it.
Finish this up.
KARAS: This is for me? Well, you know, I suppose he could ask her these leading questions, but she is a really hard person to cross-examine. And I remember when I was trying my first cases, my bosses said, you need to lose. Because proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not as easy as people think.
Everyone always thinks prosecutors have it easy. You have the power of the state, you got all of the evidence. Jodi Arias is smart, she`s a good liar. And he needed to be hard for her on the stand.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: Where`s the preparation?
BLOOM: Juan is a very advanced prosecutor.
PINSKY: Got to break, guys.
Thank you, Beth. The one thing you pointed out there that she is a good liar and there`s absolutely no doubt about that.
And I`m going to put the human lie detector on the scene to tell us more about what she witnessed in the Arias courtroom today. Exactly what it felt like to be there, as opposed to those of us that are watching from a distance, how different is it?
And later, I`ve got a crime scene expert. He`s going to take us through the Travis death house and he has a very interesting take that makes sense to me on what really happened there. I`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: You never told us that he had any knives there, did you?
ARIAS: No, I wasn`t asked.
MARTINEZ: Didn`t you tell the jury that the camera hit the ground near the shower?
ARIAS: No, no, I said it landed on the mat.
MARTINEZ: Is that near the shower?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Is the mat on the floor near the shower?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And the camera hitting the mat, would that be near the shower?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: One of the things that you also indicated with regard to one of the juror questions was that it was possible that the camera was picked up by Mr. Alexander, and you indicated to the jurors that you were around or short of the Nevada border. At some point, you brought a 9-millimeter handgun after you killed Mr. Alexander, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: You remember that question by the jury, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: We`re not asking you to tell us anything about what anybody else knows. We`re asking you to tell us what you know of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is time for our behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom.
And, Lisa, what you`re looking out there is what we call obfuscation. It`s somebody creating a fog to confuse and to be resistant and to not answer questions. And I think that`s why we`re seeing such a frustrated prosecutor, don`t you agree?
BLOOM: I don`t think he`s frustrated at all. I`d be thrilled if I were him.
And I`m cross-examining someone and getting them to say, I don`t know, I don`t know, I was in a fog, I don`t remember, and going back and contradicting her former testimony, this is a big win for the prosecutor.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
Joining us now for this behavioral panel, psychologist Wendy Walsh, psychologist and psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall, and, of course, our human lie detector who was in the courtroom today, Janine driver.
Take a look at this video today of Jodi after she`d been grilled for hours. Take a look at that, ladies. All right, look at that puss (ph) and tell me, how you react to that. What is your feeling when you look at her testifying there?
I see -- well, I won`t tell you what I see.
I`m going to ask Janine. What was that, toward the end of the day, that we`re seeing here?
DRIVER: She`s looking down left, down left is internal dialogue. And people came to me and they`re like, she`s panicked. It`s beyond panic. I think she`s literally saying, did I just go down the wrong path with Juan Martinez when I talked about my foot being on one of those bottom two shelves.
I think she thought he was trying to get at her foot would have messed up clothing, but that`s not what he`s getting that. The whole point is, if a shelf is on these pegs and you step just on the front, you weigh 120 pounds, the shelf only takes 40, it`s going to pop up, and that`s going to come back full circle.
But here`s what it`s all about, Dr. Drew. The jury, when Juan Martinez says something along the line, the jury asked about the question that most of the activity took place during the closet, but where`s the knife? Well, this one juror, juror five, he got out of his seat a little bit, and he adjusted. This is called defying gravity.
It`s as if you`re saying, I am so confident, the earth, gravity, cannot hold me down. I think that was this juror`s question.
And when Juan Martinez was relentless on getting her to answer the question, this same juror and the person next to him started nodding their heads, like, yes, like, Jodi, yes, answer the question.
PINSKY: Finally. Yes, finally, I think, right. OK, I`m going to give my comment. After I hear first -- Wendy, go ahead. What did you see? If you guys do go to video, play that video again of her towards the end of the day, standing up when the jury is leaving the room.
You see well, some of that. Go ahead, Wendy.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think that Jodi has had a long time in her life when her lying has served her well. Her degree of narcissism and her belief that she can get out of anything with lying has served her well. But I think for the first time in her life, things have changed today. She`s looking depleted.
PINSKY: There`s a picture alongside you, Wendy, right now, where I see exactly what you`re talking about.
WALSH: Yes.
PINSKY: The lies aren`t working. That`s what you would say. That`s what you feel there.
OK, Bethany, you now.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PH.D., FAMILY THERAPIST: I disagree with Wendy and the human lie detector. I think what she is trying to do is to pretend she is not aggressive, mean, arrogant, and smug.
That is Jodi Arias` best attempt to look sweet. Scary, isn`t it?
BLOOM: And probably her defense attorney has told her that. You have to remain calm. That`s critical for the defense.
MARSHALL: That`s right. You have to -- but let`s say she is aware of the hot water she`s in. Even the most hardened of criminals have a breakthrough moment, whether it`s her husband who cheated on you, your kid who sneaks out the window at night, the person who disavows all responsibility for what they`ve done, at one moment, the clouds will part, and they`ll see what they`ve done. But the clouds always roll back in again.
PINSKY: OK, there`s the fog again, there`s the computer freezing. I completely agree with you, Bethany.
However, Janine, you`re shaking your head no. And I kind of thinking --
DRIVER: I was in the courtroom. I`m going to tell you --
PINSKY: Let me tell you what I saw.
DRIVER: That`s not true. That`s not what it is.
PINSKY: Janine, what I saw -- what I think I`ve seen, I`ve seen this more than once from Jodi, is when she gets backed into a corner, she starts to panic, and that`s when we see something like emotion, that for me triggers a little sympathetic --
WALSH: Something like emotion.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: That`s pathetic, because she`s being attacked. She`s not crying, Drew, when she`s talking about Travis Alexander being killed.
PINSKY: No, when she talks about him being killed, she is very matter of fact.
BLOOM: She`s not crying. She`s talking about killing a human being.
PINSKY: I feel sympathetic for that face and I know I`m getting lured into something, and I say that all she has there is actually panic.
BLOOM: But, Drew, I have a question for you. Do you think she`s medicated? Because many defendants are during trial.
PINSKY: She could be, but I don`t think so.
Janine --
DRIVER: You know who she reminds me of?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
MARSHALL: Dr. Drew, she reminds me of the pervert hanging out in front of the Ralph`s grocery store with the little puppy dog in his arms, trying to pretend that he`s a nice guy so all the kids will walk over and think the puppy dog is cute. She has this long puppy dog face, like she`s saying, "Oh, I`m sorry, feel sorry for me."
PINSKY: OK, Bethany --
MARSHALL: She`s trying to gain sympathy.
PINSKY: Bethany goes to the mat, speaking of the mat where the camera landed.
But Janine, give us your thought.
DRIVER: The jury is not -- I`m telling you, my eyes were glued to the jury today. It was not the sweetness. We`ve seen that before. This was the last day we`re probably going to see her on the stand. She was scared to death at the end.
And I`ve got to tell you, what was happening with the jury was unbelievable. The back row, half of the jury had their hands either on their face, on their chin, or over the mouth. This is, I`m keeping my mouth shut.
The last jury on the back row, second, on the very second row, he`s juror number 10. He was doing sippling (ph) -- power, authority, and confidence.
We have another jury coming out. His thumbs were sticking out of his pockets on both sides, pointing to what I call, Dr. Drew, the naughty bits. Saying, look what I have to offer. These are signs of confidence.
BLOOM: What does that mean?
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Naughty bits, that inspires confidence? Can I say something about her being --
PINSKY: Wendy, go ahead.
WALSH: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Hang on, Wendy?
WALSH: Dr. Drew, there`s also physiological things. She`s been sitting in this position for 18 days, being attacked. I`m sure she`s feeling exhausted. She`s feeling depleted.
How long can she maintain that smugness? So, we have to take into account that there may be some physiology at play as well as psychology.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Poor thing!
PINSKY: I completely agree. I agree with both of this psychology.
Janine, more from you in a couple minutes. But I think the only emotion we have ever seen from her in 18 days on the stand is panic when she gets caught. And here she is, at the end of her testimony, saying, oh, my God, this is it! This is the piece -- this is all I`ve -- this is what they`re going to take away.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Dr. Drew, you`re acting like she`s human. Sociopaths don`t feel anxiety, fear, anger.
PINSKY: Bethany --
MARSHALL: They have no emotion.
PINSKY: We will get more into that. Hold your thoughts. We`re going to go back to the scene next of the killing with a forensic expert who knew Travis. We will get a second-by-second breakdown of his theory of what really happened and I`m telling you, it`s compelling.
And later, was Martinez as good as some have been saying today?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: The short of it is, he pulled the trigger, and nothing happened, just a click. And I realized then that he probably -- I don`t know if that means that he was out of bullets or -- I don`t know what that means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Remember those words, the gun jammed. My co-host this week is Lisa Bloom.
Joining us, Randolph Beasley. He`s a crime scene expert. He worked for the San Bernardino sheriff`s department for more than 30 years and he knew Travis and Jodi.
I`ve still got standing by, attorney Mike Eiglarsh and Janine, our human lie detector is there as well, and pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd is rejoining us. Be interested to hear what he has to say.
But first, I want to hear Randolph`s theory. Go ahead, Randolph.
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CRIME SCENE FORENSIC EXPERT: Well, to me, what makes sense on this case is that Jodi did not bring a knife to attack Travis. She brought a gun. That`s obvious. She premeditated this.
And when she shot him in the bathroom, when he`s in the shower, the gun jammed. And so she couldn`t finish him off. And when the gun jammed, she panicked, she had to go ahead and find a knife, whenever the knife was in the bedroom, or bathroom, wherever it was.
But when Travis made his way to the sink, he coughed out blood or e expirated blood into the sink and then she got a knife and finished him off.
PINSKY: OK, Randolph, hold on. I want to go right through this.
Now, I`ve looked at that the splatter in the sink. We`ve showed it a couple of times tonight. I don`t know if we can get it up alongside of our pictures here. But it was rather strange I remember thinking -- no, that`s not the right picture. At the sink when you -- there it is. That one.
BEASLEY: Right.
PINSKY: It looks like somebody coughed or spit something out there. And you`re saying that`s him standing over the sink, with a bullet wound in his head.
BEASLEY: Exactly. He has blood in his nose and mouth. The shot to the head was in the face. It was not a fatal shot.
Look at the autopsy report. There is not much brain damage at all. Look at page 4 of the autopsy report. And so, for me to sit here and watch this trial, and they`re talking about, he had a gun and a knife and she had both in the bathroom, that`s not consistent with the evidence.
So, she shoots him. What`s consistent is the trajectory pattern of the bullet through his head, is right to left and downward, at a steep angle. That`s consistent with him being either on the floor in the shower, or with his head down, which is why she did the showing her head, in the example of what happened in the shooting, and then the attack then ends up in the hallway.
PINSKY: So you think she ran back to the bedroom after she shot him, grabbed the knife that they used to cut her S&M, whatever she was doing with the ropes, or maybe there was another knife sitting around too. Maybe it was a kitchen knife. Maybe it had nothing to do with what they were doing before. Remember, she was on the fog. She didn`t remember. She grabbed that and really finished him off.
Why did she take him back in the shower?
BEASLEY: The exact reason she took him back in the shower is because she cut herself in the process. So when she`s bleeding on his body, she`s seeing drips of blood on his body, and so she has to drag him back to the shower, so she can put him in the shower and wash off the evidence.
PINSKY: Her blood?
BEASLEY: Her blood. So that`s what she did.
PINSKY: OK, interesting.
Next, I`m going to hear from the panel. The guys have been listening to what you`ve said here. We`re going to get their opinion on it.
We`re also going to take a closer look at the death photos. You will not see them anywhere else but here, but I warn you, they are graphic. So stand by and get young people out of the room.
Later on, one of my jurors was compelled to write to the defense team. She will tell us why she wrote and what the response from one of the defense attorneys actually was. Stay with us.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: I`m Vinnie Politan. Coming up at the top of the hour, brand-new show here on HLN, "HLN AFTER DARK."
And you notice some people seated next to me. This is our in-studio jury. Tonight, they will render a verdict. Not on the guilt or innocence for Jodi Arias on murder, but did Jodi lie about the gun? That`s the question they`ll answer tonight. You`ll see it here on a brand new program. "HLN AFTER DARK" coming up at the top of the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911 emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE : A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. His roommate just went in there and said there`s lots of blood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t you call 911?
VOICE OF JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: I don`t have really an adequate explanation for my state of mind following that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the stab wounds were to the back of the head and to the back of the torso, correct?
ARIAS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Back with my co-host this week, Lisa Bloom. You like those images? Those highlights --
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Yes. Were you crying then or are you just crying now because you have to answer my question? Fantastic.
PINSKY: I think the latter. We`re talking with Randolph Beezley. He`s a crime scene expert. A reminder, we just heard his theory. now, we`re going to hear some other theories coming up. And a warning, we will be showing you some graphic photos of Travis Alexander, these autopsy photos, and you will see them only on this show.
And to be honest with you, I wanted to show you more graphic stuff, because it tells the story of this crime. So, Bill, Dr. Bill Lloyd. You are a pathologist. You and I have talked before about what probably went down in that death house. Let`s hear your theory in the face of what Mr. Randolph said.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Yes. I think it`s a provocative theory. Now, at the end of this trial, somebody is saying, no, he got shot first, but that can`t be. If you go back to the medical evidence, the information garnered at the time of autopsy, they discovered that there wasn`t much blood at all, inside the skull, in the brain tissues, or in the sinuses. If, in fact, he had been shot first, there would have been blood everywhere inside the skull, the sinuses, and the facial wounds.
No, no, he got shot at the end of the story after being savagely stabbed and the massive blood loss from having his vena cava severed. Guess what? When you have massive venous collapse, you start coughing up blood and that`s what happened in the bathroom.
PINSKY: So, let me get this right, Dr. Lloyd. So, did it hit the vena cava and the esophagus and that`s why the blood started coming up --
BLOOM: OK. Wait, wait. Where`s the vena cava?
PINSKY: The vena cava is the main vein coming down through your chest and up in your abdomen. It`s where the blood gets back to your heart.
LLOYD: It returns all the blood, all of the blood from your body goes back to the heart in the vena cava. It`s deep inside the chest. That`s why you need one of these large poise (ph) to finish up the job.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let`s see that knife again.
LLOYD: When that circulatory collapse --
PINSKY: Is that the knife -- is that likely to be the knife that she used to cut her bondage rope or is that a knife that was sitting around a kitchen?
LLOYD: Yes. I think this guy was a cutco rep. He must have had knifes in every room of the house. But it had to be at least five inches long, slightly shorter than what we`re looking at right here to sever that vena cava. And when it does, we`re not talking esophagus so could have nicked that as well. This was coming up to his bronchus, to his breathing tube, his airway.
PINSKY: Got it.
LLOYD: All that blood had to go out of the chest and out through the mouth.
PINSKY: OK. So, yes, so the vena cava dumped into the chest and then came out to the bronco --
(CROSSTALK)
LLOYD: Yes, but Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew. Look at page four of the autopsy report. OK? Page four of the autopsy report, the pathologist clearly states that there was not -- there was no major damage to the brain.
PINSKY: Well, there was no -- because there wasn`t a lot of bleeding. And Dr. Lloyd and I have postulated --
LLOYD: He had exsanguinated.
(CROSSTALK)
LLOYD: He had already stopped bleeding.
(CROSSTALK)
LLOYD: The tank was empty.
PINSKY: OK. You finish this, and I`m going to Mark to really --
(CROSSTALK)
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CRIME SCENE FORENSIC EXPERT: Read what it says. It says the wound path of the bullet did not do major damage to the brain. That`s what it says. And so, it isn`t even list the bullet as one of the causes of death. It`s shop force energy, a knife, the stabbing did the cause of death, not the bullet.
PINSKY: OK.
BEASLEY: Look at the details on that report.
PINSKY: Gentleman, hold up. Mark, we`ve nod heard from you. You`ve been sitting quietly, but it looks to me like you were actually talking to yourself. You`re so anxious to speak. So, go ahead.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I am. I agree with your armed guests here. I mean, the testimony --
EIGLARSH: -- the testimony that he`s the theory that`s being provided by your unarmed guests is completely inconsistent with Dr. Kevin Horn, who talked about the order, that in no way could have happened first with the shooting like she`s alleging. But here`s what gets me the most.
His theory is that the gun jammed? How can he possibly, without seeing the weapon, without witnessing the crime, how can he possibly support that theory? A gun jammed?
PINSKY: And Mark, hold on, we were just looking at a picture, some of the stab wounds to the back of the head, and the bullet, where it came out through the occiput here. There`s a couple of wounds back there that are pretty nasty. But --
BEASLEY: Yes. The bullet didn`t come out, though, Dr. Drew. The bullet did not come out. The bullet ended up near the jaw, and the reason that you take a gun to kill someone in a pre-meditated game of attack is because that`s what you`re going to use. And so when the gun jammed, she even used that scenario in a story with the two ninja intruders.
Why? Because a suspect will typically take part of the truth, and then, they`ll fabricate this story, which is what she did.
PINSKY: Mr. Beasley, let me ask you this. You knew these people. You knew this woman. Tell me how your understanding of her, having had contact with her, fits with all we`ve seen in the courtroom, and then, we`ve got to wrap it up.
BEASLEY: OK. Well, she -- you look in her eyes, and I met her at different events and functions, and she seemed to be very aware that she was attractive and had a certain impact on men, and had that cold look. There`s no doubt about that.
But I`m trying to focus on, Dr. Drew, the physical evidence, and the autopsy report. It`s the scenario of the gunshot first makes more sense in a crime scene reconstruction.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you, guys. You`ve been a great panel.
Next up, Jodi versus the prosecution. It`s round two. We are going to grade Juan Martinez. A lot of enthusiasm for him today, but we`ll see what my -- what was she called, the people doing the grading, the teachers -- have to say. The people doing the grading.
And later, one of my jurors sent a note to Jodi`s attorney. We`re going to say -- we`re going to find out what the note said and what she got back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, as Mr. Alexander is coming towards you, he now has a knife in his hands? That`s what you`re telling us.
ARIAS: No, i didn`t say that either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, as Mr. Alexander is getting blasted and going down, he`s got the knife in his hand, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
ARIAS: That was all in the same moment when he was lunging at me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doesn`t have the knife in his hand, does he?
ARIAS: Not in that particular moment, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, I`m asking you, at that particular time, he didn`t have a knife in his hands, right?
ARIAS: I just said no.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: It is time for our trial report card. Welcome back. My co-host this week is Lisa Bloom. Round two, Jodi Arias, Juan Martinez face off. We are going to grade the prosecutor. Giving out the grades tonight, Mark Eiglarsh, Janine Driver, and Dr. Bill Lloyd.
Mark, you first. Now, everybody, hold your grades until the end. But give me your thoughts on, sort of, your evaluation of the performance before the grade -- Mark.
EIGLARSH: If we were judging Juan Martinez exclusively on how Jodi Arias looks, he`d get an A+++, but that`s not what we`re evaluating here. She looked horrible on direct examination before he ever asked her a single question. She`s going to be convicted. She looks horrible. Her story is not believable.
If we`re analyzing his performance, I still say, take notes, sit in front of a computer, carefully craft your questioning. Understand what`s coming next, what subject matter. Have things ready to go. Have her specific quotations there on the note pad, ready to cross-examine her. It`s just not the most effective style.
PINSKY: Janine.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: He was on fire! I loved it! Being in the courtroom, I have to tell you, it swayed me. And I`m going to tell you why. He`s a short little guy. I don`t know if you know this at home, but Juan Martinez, he would drown in a turtle pool with waves. I wanted to put him over my head and say, you`re so cute, Juan Martinez, because he`s shorter, this is why it matters, this is why the jury likes him.
I get it. He`s short and so short takes away some of the power. It balances out his aggressiveness. So, he`s really aggressive with his questions, and he`s hammering her, but we have this like David and Goliath thing from Nurmi, who`s gigantic, and this little teeny, Juan Martinez. It works, he was hot, he was direct.
He didn`t let her wiggle out of it. They kept being objections over here by the defense like object or already answer. The judge let it come in. He made sure she answered it, because she was tap dancing around it. He was on fire. Love it.
PINSKY: Dr. Bill Lloyd, I see you that you`re unarmed. Your opinion?
(LAUGHTER)
LLOYD: I think he put the whole trial at rescue. I think he took one hour of information and squeezed it into 18 days. He could have been far more efficient, gotten to the key points without burning out the jury. Maybe his theory was, I`m going to burn out Jodi, but instead, he puts the whole jury at risk by just dragging it on and on.
And like the other guests mentioned, he was on fire. I was thinking of the Sistine Chapel. When i saw the white smoke, at last, Jodi`s done talking!
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: We should have put up a white smoke. Yes. It`s -- I hate the association, but I like the idea that we get a nice symbol of this coming to an end. But, you know, you guys have, in the control room, the footage of when he comes up to her, very close, like he`s talking to the stenographer or something, and she has real trouble. She has what we called 90-degree head version or head -- can`t get anywhere near.
Here, he comes up kind of close, she looks down, she looks up, she looks anywhere, but in this guy`s eyes. That kind of hostility going on between the two of them, Janine, did that -- do you feel that really work for the jurors today?
DRIVER: So, listen, J. Edgar Hoover used to do this, the most famous director of the FBI. He would put his two hands on the desk and lean forward. This is commanding a presence. If you`re standing up, your hands are on a desk and you`re leaning forward. He was doing that with the stenographer, the court reporter.
Who`s right behind her, Jodi Arias? Jodi Arias would not look at him. I thought it was effective. It looked like she was cowered, like, he`s got her. And he wasn`t doing it overly aggressively. It was powerful.
PINSKY: Got it. Lisa, your evaluation, then, we`re going to grade.
BLOOM: OK. So, like Mark, I`m an active, practicing trial attorney. And it`s very different in the courtroom than it is on TV. Trials, even this one, can be boring in a courtroom. And when you`re at day 31, you`ve got to keep it alive. He is all over the place.
He`s animated. He is loud. He`s making her very uncomfortable. He`s capturing the attention of the jury. I`m with Janine in the reaction, he was fantastic.
PINSKY: OK. Here come the grades. We`ll start with Mark. Grade?
EIGLARSH: I`m only giving him a plus with my grade, "D+," because I`m trying to be positive, quite frankly.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark.
EIGLARSH: I`m afraid, I`m afraid, I`m afraid. I`m afraid he`s going to take that style to the experts and he`s going to really turn this jury off.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, what have you got?
LLOYD: I`ll give him a "C," but even in medical school, you pass with a "C."
PINSKY: There you go. Fair enough. A passing grade, a median grade in some institutions. Janine, what do you got?
DRIVER: Hey, I started with a comparison and analogy of Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory. If one person makes it at the end, it`s not Jodi Arias, it`s Juan Martinez. I give him an "A-."
PINSKY: And I know you`re tough grader. Lisa, your grade?
BLOOM: After slashing his throat and stabbing him, someone should express outrage in the courtroom, he`s doing it. I give him the "A."
PINSKY: Thank you to my panel. Next, Jodi`s attorney sent an e-mail -- excuse me -- our attorney sent a message to one of her attorneys and she got a response. You`re going to hear what that was after the break when we hear from our jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Kirsten, I want to go to you first because I heard interesting story that you actually gave a letter to Jodi`s Attorney Wilmot today. I want to know why and what did it say?
KJERSTIN PINC, DR. DREW "JUROR": She`s inspired me. If I were to go into the legal field, I would be in criminal defense. That`s just what I think I have a passion for. So, I expressed that to her and that I respect her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is a member of Dr. Drew`s Jury you see speaking there. She`s our youngest member. I`m back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom. Joining us, Katie Wick, our resident juror, and high school student, Kjerstin Pinc. So, Kjerstin, you passed that letterer to Jodi`s attorney. What did you hear back?
PINC: Surprisingly, she wrote back very quickly. She e-mailed me and she just was very nice about it said she couldn`t interview at this time, but I`m planning on corresponding with her after the trial is over.
PINSKY: And let me just get your opinion. How do you think the prosecution is doing versus the defense?
PINC: Am, I think he could do better. I think that he`s definitely proven that she`s a liar, but I think that`s not what he needs to prove in this trial. I think he needs to prove that it`s premeditated. So --
PINSKY: There you go.
BLOOM: You`re going to be a good defense attorney.
PINSKY: And Katie, how about you? The big moment in the courtroom today for you was what?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": The photo of the closet, Dr. Drew. I said from the very beginning, I think that the picture of this closet is going to be something that seals the deal for Jodi. The fact that she went all the way up in this large closet, didn`t disturb anything, got the gun, and the line of the day was when Juan Martinez says, so you took a gun down that you didn`t think was loaded, what were you going to do, throw it at him?
(LAUGHTER)
WICK: Right? It makes perfect sense. And I heard prior to our segment some of the grades. I think Juan Martinez did a fabulous job dealing with a defendant on the stand who was combative, who was snarky, and who thought that she could one-up him.
I think he did a wonderful job and it proves today what the last four or five jury questions that he nailed it, still, with the idea that Jodi has memory problems, the gun issue, and still, the jury is asking, where is the proof of the defense.
BLOOM: Thank you! See, those in the courtroom give him high marks.
PINSKY: There you go. Let`s get a comment from one of our viewers. Meg in New York. Meg, come on in here.
MEG, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. Jodi makes me sick to my stomach. I believe she could get the death penalty. My concern is being the trial is being held in the Mormon community. How many of the jurors are Mormon and wouldn`t they be more likely not to ask for the death penalty?
PINSKY: Katie, you -- Stacey, your compatriot on previous nights here is a Mormon, if I remember right. Did she give you any opinion about that?
WICK: We actually, it`s really interesting, we actually think that there`s at least three. She said to me today, we were writing notes and comparing notes, and there were a few questions again about the book of Mormon.
There`s no doubt, one, if not two Mormons, and there`s also gun owners on this jury, Dr. Drew, that know darn well, those that do not have experience shooting a gun are not going to take the chance of shooting someone or not shooting a gun they know is not loaded and they don`t know how to use it. It`s not going to happen. I think there`s Mormons and I think there are gun owners. And those are the people that I think are going to --
BLOOM: Sorry. I was just going to say, but remember, everybody on the jury, this is a death-qualified jury. Regardless of their religion, they`ve all sworn an oath they could impose the death penalty.
PINSKY: They possibly could. Kjersten, have you written your paper yet?
PINC: Yes, it`s already half written. So, I`ve learned a lot about battered women.
PINSKY: OK. Excellent. Now, after the break, our human lie detector, you know, Janine, i want you to watch her in an interview. We`re going to talk to her after this.
She told us a very dramatic story last night about her own experience having been a battered woman and there`s been a lot of support pouring in from our viewers, from our internet sites, and we`re going to talk to her about that so, Kjersten, you watch and maybe you can talk to her. She`s there in Arizona. She can teach you an awful lot about this, OK?
PINC: Yes.
PINSKY: All right. We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Lisa Bloom, and human lie detector, Janine Driver, joins us as well. Lisa, you and I both remember what happened last night with Janine. She told us a very powerful story about her own personal experience with domestic violence. Janine, I just want to give you again a heartfelt thank you for sharing that. I know it affected a lot of our viewers. And my understanding is you personally have been getting a lot of support as well. Can you tell us about that?
DRIVER: By the time I got back to my hotel room, I`m two blocks from the courthouse. I had over 200. I had about 280 Facebook requests, over 200 Twitters. I responded to everyone on Twitter. I`ve got to get to Facebook. Over 86 women who`ve experienced domestic violence have e-mailed me on Facebook with their long story, including a woman in law enforcement who said, like me, I was embarrassed.
I worked for ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, how could I not see this happening? It happened once, but the bad news is, I went back to him. I had told everyone. You know, Michael was to get out of the house. I thought he was dying. He was punching me in my heart. It`s complicated.
I can tell you another time the details, but I told my mother, I told my sisters, I told my boss at ATF. I filed a police report the next day in Connecticut. And then, I went back with him a month later, and my heart breaks for that 23-year-old, 24-year-old version of me that went back. And so, it was really thank you to all the people who are writing in and I`m glad the people who have walked away have walked away.
And the people who haven`t, tell someone. Even if embarrassment is what gets you to safety -- I had to move to the World Trade Center in New York City. I left Hartford, Connecticut, because I thought if I didn`t move, I was going to keep dating him until he killed me one day.
BLOOM: Janine, I think you are so brave. You`ve got me choked up. I know how hard it is to talk out about this kind of thing, especially when you`re a competent, professional person. What you have helped so many people. And you know, we watch these cases that are so disturbing.
But there`s so many more good people in the world than bad people in the world. And all the people who came out to support you show that.
PINSKY: And most importantly, when we involve ourselves in looking and examining these cases, Janine, you bring it home with something that people can really learn from. Is the blue ribbon, by the way, domestic violence ribbon? Is that what that is? The blue ribbon?
DRIVER: No. This is Jodi Arias` family gave me this -- I mean, not Jodi Arias`, Travis alexander`s. This is in support of him and getting justice for him. You know, I want to say, that was 20 years ago that happened to me. I`m 42 today. I`m a "New York Times" best-selling author, I go on great shows like the Dr. Drew show.
I have a life I love. I speak to corporate America. If I could go back and whisper a secret in my ear when I was 24 that you`ll get through this, your life is going to be great. I have a husband who I love and a son that`s awesome.
(CROSSTALK)
So, get out of the situation.
PINSKY: It gets better. Get out of there. Get out of there. And by the way, a reminder, you having been through this, the women you`ve been talking to having been through this are offended by Jodi`s version, where there isn`t all those elements that you just described, it just doesn`t make sense what she`s claiming.
Before we go, I`ve got to say, Janine, thank you so much. "HLN After Dark" premieres next. It`s a wrap up for this event (ph) in the Arias trial. I will join you there. It will be Monday through Thursday right after this show as long as the trial is going on. Thanks for watching. Thank you to Lisa. It begins right now.
END
