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Nancy Grace

Jodi`s Last Day on the Stand

Aired March 13, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you are stressed out and people are yelling at you, you`re like a computer that freezes, right?

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: Typically, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have the knife in your hand when you shot him?

ARIAS: No, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that means if you didn`t have the knife in your hands, you needed to got get it from somewhere, right?

ARIAS: I guess. I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no! There`s no guessing here now. So as Mr. Alexander is getting blasted (INAUDIBLE) he`s the knife in his hand, right?

ARIAS: That was all in the same moment when he was lunging at me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get the gun. You go into the bathroom again. You then turn around and you point the gun. You shoot him. He goes down, still clawing at you and saying (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you bitch, all in 62 seconds. That`s what you`re telling us?

ARIAS: He didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you bitch until after I got away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the fog rolls in, it does not improve your memory, does it.

ARIAS: I don`t know. I couldn`t say it does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This gun that you say that saw him load, even though you saw him load it, you believed on June 4th of 2008 was unloaded, right?

ARIAS: I didn`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a problem with memory of what you just said a couple days ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... "still felt threatened after having shot Mr. Alexander. Why did you use a knife instead of just shooting again?"

ARIAS: I know that I dropped the gun when he hit me, and I don`t know where the gun went when we fell. It was no longer in my hands. And I don`t really remember picking up the knife. I just remember feeling threatened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. After a scathing cross-exam by the state, the defense moves to rehabilitate Jodi Arias on redirect.

Bombshell tonight. Murder defendant Jodi Arias back on the hot seat again, trying to field more of the 200-plus questions from the jury. The state, voice raised, pointing at Arias, angrily insisting it is impossible Travis Alexander died the way Arias describes it, forcing her on the stand to break down the murder literally second by second in front of the jury. The devil is in the details, all right, but in this case, the devil is in the photo timecodes.

Dear lord in heaven! Let me tell you, in the courtroom today, you could have heard a pin drop as Arias tried to struggle this way and that way to get out of answering questions, trying to deflect the state`s questions that are all follow-ups to the jury questions.

Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Everybody camped outside the courthouse. Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": The camera that was ultimately found in the washing machine, that had deleted photos on it -- those timecodes, those inadvertent photos that were taken during the fight or during the murder were used today to show this wasn`t self-defense.

The first inadvertent photo happens at 5:31:14. Now, what`s important about that? Because the camera`s in mid-air. Testimony previously was it was five to six inches above the floor. And then one minute and two seconds later is the next inadvertent photo.

Jodi testified that once that camera was in mid-air, that she was picked up, she was body-slammed. She got away. She ran down the hall. She ran into the closet. She slammed the door. She put one foot up on the shelf, got the gun, put the gun down, went out the other door, went into the bathroom, pointed. There was Travis lunging at her. The gun went off. They both ended up on the floor.

She testified today she didn`t have a knife in her hand and she didn`t have that camera in her hand. If she`s fighting for her life, Nancy, why did she go and get the camera? Because there was a second photo taken one minute, two seconds later.

GRACE: You know, another thing that got brought up -- and this is out to you, Alexis Weed, our staff member right there in front of the courthouse, as well -- Alexis Weed, she said -- she was forced to admit under cross-examination by the state -- and this is all playing off the jury`s questions -- that when she shot Alexander -- and her story is she shot him first. The medical examiner says, No, no, no, no, no, she shot him last, based on the forensics on the body, that that wound really didn`t even bleed that much because he was already in the process of dying or dead when the -- that gunshot went to the head.

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.

GRACE: But he got her to say -- where`s Alexis? I can`t see her. He got her to say that when she shot him, she did not have the knife in her hand. Now, why is that important? Because in her scenario, that means she gets body-slammed, she inadvertently shoots him. And then what does she do? She`s afraid for her life. He`s still coming after her, even though she just shot him in the brain. What does she do, run down to the kitchen and get a butcher knife and come back up the stairs and stab him 29 times? I mean, her scenario is impossible.

And she was forced to say on cross-examination today by the state that she did not have the knife in her hand when she fired.

WEED: Right, Nancy. And that is key because if she were to not have had that knife in her hand, like Jean said, a minute and two seconds, she would have needed to have gone to find that knife, Nancy. And she would have run down the hallway, gone into the closet, grabbed the gun, came back. And Nancy, it just doesn`t make sense.

And Juan Martinez today I thought was so successful today at breaking down exactly what would have happened during that time. And he established that she would have had to have had to go get that gun because she said, No, I didn`t have it in my hand when I shot Travis.

GRACE: Just to tell the story takes longer than 62 seconds. And based on those timecode stamps on that digital camera, it all happened in just 62 seconds.

Take a listen. Liz, let`s go in the courtroom and hear Arias talking about the knife.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do, then, agree that if the knife -- if you didn`t know where the knife was and Mr. Alexander didn`t have it, it would take time for you to go find that knife, wouldn`t it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

ARIAS: I don`t know. I don`t know where the knife was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Since you didn`t know where the knife was, it would take time to go find it, irrespective of where it was, wouldn`t it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. (INAUDIBLE) testimony of her memory now or her memory or awareness at that time?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

ARIAS: Can you repeat your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Would you then agree that if the knife -- if you didn`t know where the knife was and Mr. Alexander didn`t have it, would it take time for you to go find that knife, wouldn`t it."

ARIAS: I don`t know the answer to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t think that a movement such as a step takes time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, argumentative.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, if the knife wasn`t -- even if the knife was there, your grabbing it took time, didn`t it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objective, argumentative. Same question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

ARIAS: I guess, in theory. I don`t remember grabbing it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, in theory. And if the knife, for example, since you can`t tell us where it was -- but if the knife was in the bedroom, which some of the action was going on there, that would have taken more time than if it was, for example, in the closet, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calls for speculation. Argumentative.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

ARIAS: Not necessarily. I don`t remember it being in the closet. And it would depend on the point -- if it were ever in the closet (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not asking you that question. My question is more about time. Isn`t it true that if the knife was in the bedroom or the closet, as opposed to the bathroom, that would take more time to go and get it, right?

ARIAS: At that point, I guess, because we were in the bathroom when...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

ARIAS: ... we fell.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. And if you didn`t know where it was, assuming that you didn`t know where it was back then, it would have taken time to actually look for it, wouldn`t it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Calls for speculation. She has no memory.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

ARIAS: I guess, under that theory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, under that theory. It would take time, right?

ARIAS: Yes, I guess.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: See, she always gives herself wiggle room. She won`t say, Yes, that would take longer. Why? Because in cross-examination -- I mean, in closing arguments, she can`t have committed to the prosecution`s scenario, even though it makes perfect sense.

We are taking your calls. You see Jodi Arias on the stand. And I just got a call that the prosecution is being argumentative. Let me remind everybody that he has her on cross-exam. This is not his witness, all right? True, he`s following up on jury questions. But when you hear a question start like, Isn`t it true, or, Didn`t you X -- when you leave the witness the wiggle room to do yes or no, not to explain, that is a cross- examination question. And he has her legitimately on cross.

Now, every once in a while, you hear the defense attorney, Objection, argumentative. That`s what cross-examination is. That is how you are schooled in law school to ask cross-examination questions.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty- qualified prosecutor. Also with me tonight out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, former prosecutor turned defense attorney Peter Odom.

Well, Peter, I guess this is every defense lawyer`s -- I guess this is every defense attorney`s worse nightmare, for the jury to get to ask questions of the defendant. What do you think?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in this case, it was. I mean, there are many cases, Nancy, in which I would welcome that. But in this case, I think it hurt her on balance. Clearly, the jury has problems with her scenario, and the questions that they ask showed that. So yes, it ended up being a nightmare here.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear what you said. You said clearly the jury what?

PETER ODOM: Had problems with her scenario, and all the jury`s questions were very pointed, you know, trying to attack it. So yes, it was a nightmare in this case.

GRACE: You know, the way you say that, it`s like you`re, you know, describing a Degas or a Renoir. You`re so calm in your delivery. They basically said, Eleanor, You`ve lied every -- at every point in your life! Why should we believe you`re telling the truth now? And when she`s really -- her feet held to the fire by this prosecution about second by second, those 62 seconds, she fell apart. The whole story fell apart.

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: I know, Nancy, because all of a sudden, she can`t remember those 62 seconds. But she can give detail after detail of everything that happened up to those 62 seconds, and then miraculously, her memory springs back into action right after the end of the 62 seconds. So as a prosecutor, I would hammer that home again and again. It just doesn`t make sense, Nancy, that you conveniently can`t remember 62 seconds.

GRACE: Hey, Peter...

PETER ODOM: Yes?

GRACE: ... have you ever had a client on the stand that perfectly under direct does, OK, starts to falter on cross, but then suddenly gets so agitated, they`re twisting and turning, that actually, a cold sore breaks out on her lip -- let`s see the cold sore -- in the middle of the jury questioning? And it just -- the more questions the jury asks, the worse it got.

PETER ODOM: Nancy, I have never had a client break out in a cold sore during cross-examination. That has not happened to me. I will confess. That has not happened to me.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: I`ve had plenty of defendants on the stand break down crying and go (INAUDIBLE)

PETER ODOM: But I will...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... try to lunge at me, but I`ve never had one break down -- break out with a cold sore.

PETER ODOM: But I will say this, that she is remaining a lot calmer than the prosecutor. I mean, he`s sort of violating one of the cardinal rules of cross-examination and that`s, don`t lose your cool.

GRACE: Really?

PETER ODOM: He`s losing his cool all over the place. I think he`d be a lot more effective if he would tone it down and just keep it...

GRACE: Really? Is that what you say?

PETER ODOM: Yes, it is.

GRACE: Well, you know, Eleanor, you and I prosecuted at the same time. And I really don`t think that 29 stab wounds and slashing your lover`s throat from ear to ear, just to cap it off, shooting them in the head -- I don`t really see anything to remain calm about. In fact, if this prosecution were calm and clinical, like the tot mom was -- did you see what happened in that? I mean, nobody is there to speak for Travis Alexander but this prosecutor. Of course he should be harsh!

ELEANOR ODOM: Exactly, and passionate, Nancy. That`s what (INAUDIBLE) about as prosecutors because we`re the only ones speaking for the victim in that courtroom. And that`s what this prosecutor is doing. And that`s a very strong office there, Nancy, in Phoenix, Arizona. They`ve got some very good, excellent prosecutors in that office.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that you told us in response to a question that the gun was in a holster when you grabbed it? Do you remember saying that?

ARIAS: I remember saying that I don`t recall if it was in the holster when I grabbed it.

It was sitting up there. I believe it had a holster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You also indicated it was in a box at another time, didn`t you.

ARIAS: I don`t remember indicating that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Do you remember what happened to the box it was in?"

ARIAS: No, I do not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... you believed on June 4th of 2008 was unloaded, right?

ARIAS: I don`t know. I didn`t check it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t you tell the jury when you were talking about the attack, in response to one of their questions, that you believed the gun was unloaded. Do you remember saying that? Yes or no?

ARIAS: I don`t remember (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I`m asking, yes or no. Do you remember saying that?

ARIAS: I don`t know.

He assured me that it was not loaded.

He did end up loading it, at one point.

He told me at one time that he did -- he considered loading it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: All right, bring it on! Let`s talk about the gun. We are getting down to the nitty-gritty of this trial, Jodi Arias on the stand today, still trying to field and respond to 200-plus questions by the jury, of all people.

All right, Matt Zarrell, before we talk about the gun, I want you to tell me what happened in court, and what is Jodi Arias`s scenario about what happened and why that`s absolutely impossible.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, part of the problem here, Nancy, is that Arias`s scenario is, I don`t remember. After the gunshot goes off and after she tries to get away and Travis curses at her, she doesn`t remember anything after that except disposing of the gun.

GRACE: Matt, I want you to take it from the beginning of her story. What was her story in a nutshell?

ZARRELL: OK. Her story is that she`s taking photos of Travis in the shower, the camera drops, Travis body-slams her to the ground. She rolls over to get away, runs down the hallway, into the closet, reaches up on the shelf and grabs the gun, goes out the other closet door. And as she`s turning around, she points the gun. Travis is coming into the bathroom. Travis lunges at her like a linebacker. The gun, as Arias claims, inadvertently goes off. They both fall to the ground. Arias tries to get away. Travis is on top of her. She struggles. She gets away. Travis threatens her. And that`s the last thing she remembers.

GRACE: OK, for you to tell me, just to tell me what happened, took 43 seconds. I was timing you. I didn`t want to tell you because I didn`t want to slant your rendition. For you to tell me -- and you left out a lot, I might add, Matt, of her story, about how they were in the shower taking pictures. He`s in the shower. She drops the camera and he becomes enraged. He comes out of the shower.

Anyway, my point is, for you to just tell me the story, "Reader`s Digest" version, you took about 42, 43 seconds to tell me. The whole thing happened, the whole murder happened in 62 seconds, Matt. It`s absolutely impossible.

ZARRELL: Yes, her scenario does not make a lot of sense. Another fact here is the gun, whether it was loaded or not loaded. She kind of goes back and forth about that, but she does say that it was her understanding the gun was not loaded when she grabbed it. So then the prosecutor asked, Well, why did you grab the gun? Were you going to throw it at him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... under your scenario is that in 62 seconds, you get body-slammed, you do whatever you do but you get away, you run down the hallway. You go in the closet, you grab a gun, you back up, you shoot Mr. Alexander.

ARIAS: I didn`t say that was the only possibility with the camera. So that wasn`t correct, the way you asked it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not asking you...

ARIAS: And I don`t know that his throat is slit in that picture, either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, how many possibilities are there in the way that Travis Alexander was killed? OK, let`s talk about the gun. OK, Liz, let me see a picture of Travis Alexander`s closet. Everybody look at this, all right? Look at this picture. Can you -- can I see a picture without the whole closet being covered up? Ah, yes, there you go. Take down the lower third just for a sec. Let`s see this.

Look. It looks like an ad for California Closets. Look at this. Everything is sorted (ph). Look at the bluejeans. Oh, there you go. Look at the bluejeans! They`re hung, you know, with ankles up so they`ll be perfectly straight and creased. The ties are in order. The shoes are perfect. If you look carefully, you can see that many of them have the little shoehorns in them.

And look up at the shelves. Look at the shelves. Now, she says that the gun was on one of these shelves behind some of this stuff. What stuff? There was just a picture up there. Now, you want to tell me that a guy that keeps his closet like this just casually leaves a live, loaded .25- caliber weapon just sitting there, with live ammo in it, with the gun cocked?

Oh, no, no, no, no, no! Judging by that closet, Jean Casarez, he would have had a special gun case or a beautiful gun case, probably dusted perfectly, locked, maybe a glass so you can see the gun, have his ammo in a different place. He`d have a license and registration, the works. And he would not leave it sitting around full of live ammo, cocked.

CASAREZ: She testified she wasn`t sure if it was in a holster, but she testified she took it with one hand and then went and shot.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s be clear. There wasn`t anybody else there, right?

ARIAS: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you and he were the only ones there, right?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... you said is that he stayed down when you got up, right?

ARIAS: I don`t remember a lot after that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were standing at that time, right?

ARIAS: No, I was on the ground next to him. I`m breaking away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re breaking away.

ARIAS: I don`t know if I was getting up or what. It was just all very fast and contemporaneous with that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still a threat to you. According to you, and he just threatened your life. You turn your back on the threat?

ARIAS: Yes. I`m trying to get away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have the knife, right?

ARIAS: Up to that point I don`t --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes or no, do you have the knife at that point?

ARIAS: No. Right at that point when my memory begins to end, I didn`t have the knife at any point that I remember.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: See, she can`t have the knife under her scenario, because that would make her a murderer. That would mean that she went into that room with that knife. Because where is she going to get a knife? In the closet? No. There is no way for her to explain how she had a knife in her hand under her scenario of what happened.

Welcome back, everybody. We are camped outside the courthouse, bringing you the latest. Jodi Arias back on the stand today. Even more defensive, more agitated than ever, as she tries to field even more of those 200 plus questions that came from the jury.

We are taking your calls, straight out to Marie. Hi, Marie, in Pennsylvania. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. It is an honor to talk to you.

GRACE: Likewise.

CALLER: I wanted to -- nobody else has said anything about it, but she has been using this fog excuse for a long time. When the jury asked her about her father and her father caught her sneaking back in or that she`d been out all night, he asked where she was, and her first response was I don`t know. So she has been using this all her life. Maybe it has worked in the past. Who knows?

GRACE: Marie, that is such a good observation, and I totally -- listen. I am so focused on the forensics. Let`s go out to Dr. Leslie. Also a psychotherapist. Marie in Pennsylvania is right. She snuck out, she stayed out all night long, I think they caught her coming back in the next morning, and the dad said, he was not hitting her, he was not angry. Well, I`m sure he was angry, but he`s not touching her, said "where were you?" And she said "I don`t know." He slapped her. He said "where were you?" She said "I don`t know" again. What does this say to you, Dr.?

MARSHALL: Nancy, the way she described her memory, it`s holier than holy Swiss cheese. None of her story makes sense. She is not showing any of the normal signs of trauma, and she is demonstrating over and over again that she is a control freak, who is pissed and very angry at the prosecutor, and she is damning herself on the stand.

GRACE: What do you mean by control freak? Why do you say that?

MARSHALL: Because she is splitting hairs on every nuance of every word the prosecutor says. And I`m sure the jury is fed up with it. Like most of the people watching this trial, she is argumentative about every nuance of every word. She can`t say a simple yes or no. That means she has to win every second of her life. That is the classic profile of a sociopath/psychopath. Extreme narcissist. She is a garden variety version of that type of personality. And those are the people that commit murders, believe their story that they`re innocent, and then try and be charming and flirt with the jury.

GRACE: You know what, people are very afraid, a lot of court watchers are afraid that Arias is going to walk or get a manslaughter on this case. And it`s so wrong if that were to happen.

To Kinsey Schofield joining me, social media strategist in the court all day long. Kinsey, what stood out to you today in the testimony?

KINSEY SCHOFIELD, SOCIAL MEDIA STRATEGIST: I think what stood out to me, Nancy, is although Jodi Arias` testimony is absolutely chaotic, it has one common them, and that is a complete lack of common sense. Things like he body slammed me when he was fresh out of the shower and soaking wet, or I was paid only $200 a month to clean this guy`s five-bedroom house, and I chose to worry about the top shelf of his closet. If somebody was paying me $200 to clean their house, the closet is the last place I would be. She was snooping.

And I think that the jury is well aware of these inconsistencies due to their questions, and I also think they are ready for her to get off the stand, because after those questions in the courtroom today, they were done and they were ready to move on to the next witness.

GRACE: Kinsey, what did you observe about the jurors themselves? How are they reacting to her?

SCHOFIELD: Well, there are two women in the courtroom that I think have slightly bonded within the jury, because when Jodi answers questions that are completely unacceptable, like OK, I guess, I don`t know, they seem to look over at each other like it is unacceptable, too. So I was content seeing that.

But really, they`re excited when Juan Martinez is up there. And it`s like Nurmi is reading "Good Night Moon" whenever he steps up there to ask her questions. They definitely are toned down and not too thrilled when Nurmi is standing up and talking to Jodi. But when Juan Martinez is, they are very engaged.

GRACE: You know, let me ask you something, Eleanor. Let me see, Peter Odom and death penalty qualified prosecutor Eleanor joining us.

Eleanor, I recall all the years that I tried cases, I would very rarely look to my right, where the defense or the defendant was, but I would constantly be watching the witness and the jury. The witness and the jury. I wouldn`t even move. In fact, I hated it when my investigators would come in and try to tell me something. I would make them write it down, because I didn`t want to miss the jury reaction to what the defendant or the witness was saying. And when you start seeing -- Peter, he is going to pooh-pooh this whole thing, I already know he is -- but when you start seeing two jurors go, or look at each other, that look, you know, you and I have done it to each other a million times in court. Something would happen and we would look over to each other.

That`s very important, because -- you explain it. Why is it so important that there is now a liaison, that there is a connection between two jurors?

E. ODOM: Well, you want that connection there, Nancy, because you want those people to go in the jury room liking each other, ready to agree with each other, especially if they are having knowing glances during testimony, that seems implausible (ph), that way you`re kind of thinking, hey, they are on my side. Another trick I always like is what are they looking at? Are they looking at the defendant when they come in and out from the jury room, like from a break, and especially right before a verdict too, you can tell a lot sometimes as where the jurors are looking as to which way they are leaning in the trial.

GRACE: A lot of people pooh-pooh that, but I think you can -- you know, it is just like you can determine so many things nonverbally.

OK, Peter, even you are going to have to admit that when you have an alliance between a number of jurors, that they`re going to stick together in jury deliberations.

P. ODOM: That can happen.

GRACE: And even if they disagree, they`ll get along in reaching a verdict. Now, I don`t know which way it is going to go, which way they are leaning, but I know that they are connected, and that makes them very powerful. They are going to be leaders back there in the jury, not sheep, not followers.

P. ODOM: And that often happens, Nancy, that alliances form, and you hope that they`re going your way. But you know, as you know, by the way, I wish I had seen you try a case, I never did, but I know you were very good.

And when you talk about connecting with the jury and bonding with the jury, you are looking at them to figure out those alliances, to try and address the concerns of every individual juror if you can, even though you can`t speak to them in a dialogue directly. So you have got to pay real close attention to them. It is a human endeavor. As you know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I am reading all of your e-mails and taking your calls. Herpes Lie Detector (ph) is writing that apparently he believes that breaking out in the cold sore is evidence of lying. Here is a good one. It says, "Somebody on that jury, one of the jurors seems to have gun knowledge. He will know Arias`s story is BS."

All right, Jean Casarez, does somebody on the jury seem to know something about guns? Have some of the questions suggested that they do?

CASAREZ: There were a lot of particular points to one question in the original questions to Jodi about whether the gun was cocked, how did she know it was loaded. But here is the clincher, OK? She continues to testify that she reached with one hand and she got the gun. She doesn`t know if it was in a holster. Nancy, if it was in a holster, and you are reaching with just one hand, that`s all it takes, the holster is going to go with you. You are going to get the holster and the gun, not just the gun.

GRACE: And no ammo found. No holster found. And she remembers all of this and then she blacks out when the knife becomes part of the story, and then she in her fog fills her car up with gas, makes a few phone calls. What else happens in the fog, Matt Zarrell?

ZARRELL: Well, we are forgetting two things here. She deleted the photos from the camera after killing Travis. And she cleaned up the scene, especially wiping the blood off of the area. All of this was done in her fog. Also, leaving a voice mail specifically for Travis Alexander, making it seem like she wasn`t there.

GRACE: Foggy, foggy. Like pea soup, so foggy. Joining me right now special guest, friend of Travis Alexander, actually survived an armed robbery with him. Duane Tolman is with me. Duane, thank you for being with us.

DUANE TOLMAN, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Thank you, and thank you for giving Travis a voice.

GRACE: Thank you. That`s a real honor for me that you said that. You were actually at a restaurant with Travis when you guys were held up at gun point. How did he respond?

TOLMAN: Well, after my wife warned us, about 30 people disappeared under the tables for cover, and Travis and I had no room to go anywhere. So we went to the other side of the partition. The gunman saw me go under the table, but apparently Travis couldn`t quite get around in time. And so the gunman forced him down to the ground. And he was about three feet from me. And the gunman put the gun to his temple. I can tell you there was one person right there at that time that was praying pretty hard that I wouldn`t have to see the end result of the gunman pulling that trigger.

GRACE: What is your reaction to the way that Travis has been portrayed during this trial?

TOLMAN: I`m appalled. I just -- we can hardly believe it. Who would want to do that to such a good guy? Especially one that had such a bright future.

GRACE: And Duane, when you hear the latest, there has been a motion to compel filed by the defense. And Jean, it is my understanding that they want what they believe could be a criminal history of Travis Alexander. There is -- I felt that I had the wind knocked out of me when I heard Travis Alexander had a conviction. And I just felt sick about it. I couldn`t even talk about it all day long when I heard about it. Then as it came out, as the hours passed, his brother said, has confessed that he was the one that shoplifted something and got in a scuffle with the guard at the drugstore or whatever and used his brother`s name. And that has been verified with fingerprints.

And the defense was ready -- there is a rap sheet shot of Dennis Alexander. He had come forward and explained the whole thing. And the defense was ready to jump on that like a cheap suit and use it against Travis Alexander, when it wasn`t even him.

TOLMAN: That`s just amazing.

CASAREZ: Right, and it was proven, so it is a moot motion now.

GRACE: So there was quite, quite a stir about that. Matt Zarrell, was there not?

ZARRELL: Yes, there was, Nancy. The defense tried to make a lot of hay about it. Fortunately, the police have confirmed through fingerprints that it was not Travis Alexander that was involved in this incident, and again, Nancy, the question becomes, why didn`t they run his record on day one?

GRACE: That`s what I said. Eleanor, Eleanor and Peter Odom joining me tonight. Day one, when I am getting ready for trial, this is at least weeks if not months ahead of trial, the first thing I do, run the defendant`s rap sheet, run the victim`s rap sheet. Typically victim`s past cannot come in unless it goes to show a reputation for violence. And did that reputation affect the defendant`s decision to shoot if self-defense is the issue? That is one of the rare times that a record can come in on a victim. That is the first thing you do. Why are they jumping up near the end of the defendant`s testimony and asking for the rap sheet on the victim? Of course, there is not one. But that is bad lawyering.

E. ODOM: And also, it sounds like, Nancy, they thought they were holding something back and they were going to jump up and like, oh, surprise, look, state, we got you. But there was nothing to get them. They were wrong all along. But you`re right, you are going to run criminal records because you want to know what you`re dealing with upfront.

GRACE: Well, do you lose face with the judge, Peter? They couldn`t bring this into evidence, because Travis Alexander has a pristine record. He has no record. But to find out they haven`t even run a rap sheet at this stage of the game?

P. ODOM: Nancy, I mean, they might have run a rap sheet, it came up clean, because he does have a clean record, and they later got a hint that there might be something else out there and did the motion to compel. Right? So it might not necessarily be bad lawyering.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are body slammed, you get away. You go down the hallway, you go in the closet, you get the gun, you go into the bathroom again. You then turn around and you point the gun. You shoot him. He goes down. He`s still pawing at you, and saying, [EXPLETIVE DELETED] kill you, bitch. And then after you`re able to get away, you go get the knife, and he ends up at the end of the hallway, all in 62 seconds? That`s what you`re telling us?

ARIAS: No, that`s not what I`m saying, and he didn`t say [EXPLETIVE DELETED] until I got away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pardon?

ARIAS: He didn`t say (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you, bitch, until after I got away. You said he said it before I broke away, but he said it right as I broke away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s just the taste of what went down in the courtroom in the last hours. We`re live, parked outside the courthouse, bringing you the very latest. Let`s take some calls. Sharon, Kentucky. Hi, Sharon, what`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. Love your show.

GRACE: Thanks for calling in.

CALLER: I have a comment.

GRACE: OK.

CALLER: I honestly believe that she had full intentions of killing Travis the day she went to see him. Travis kept asking for the CDs of their vacation together, and I believe she intentionally scratched them so she could provoke him. I do not believe he was a bad person. I don`t -- I don`t believe half of what she says, how he attacked her. But I believe that she tried to provoke him by scratching these CDs, so she could take the gun I believe she had, of her grandfather`s, in her purse, out, and kill him in self-defense.

Well, when it didn`t work with the CDs being scratched and him -- trying to do something horrible to him, she waited until they got in the shower together, and then shot him.

GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, Sharon in Kentucky`s theory that she intended to kill when she first left on the trip, that`s a theory the state is using.

CASAREZ: No question, because of the gas cans, because of the car, and because of that gun. Now, the CDs were of their trips beforehand. So if you go with the theory that you have, Nancy, that she was still trying to get him to take her to Cancun, she could have been reminiscing with those CDs. Look at all the trips we`ve taken, we can knock one more off the list if you just take me to Cancun.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Corporal Max Donahue, just 23. Highlands Ranch, Colorado. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medial, parents Julie and Greg, stepfather Chad, brothers Ryan, Jordan, Taylor. Max Donahue, American hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I don`t remember thinking, this gun is unloaded. I remember, somehow, thinking that I`m not going to shoot him. Like, I wasn`t thinking that. I wasn`t thinking it`s loaded and I want to point it at him. I just wanted him to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not asking you that. I`m asking you whether or not, whether or not, in response to one of the jury questions, whether or not you indicated to them, the jury, as part of the question, that as you put your hand out, that you believed the gun was unloaded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, let me get this straight. Jean Casarez, she is saying that she ran into the closet, she climbed up on a shelf, she just used it to support her weight, reached up and got the gun, while he`s in hot pursuit, but didn`t the prosecution do a test on that and show the shelf could only hold up 40 pounds?

CASAREZ: Yes. And in fact, went further than that, to say that it was a resting shelf on four metal pegs. That it could support no more weight than 20 pounds. And you also have inconsistency with her. Because she`s saying one foot went on the shelf, one foot went to the gun, but today said the other hand rested on a shelf as she got the gun. Inconsistency.

GRACE: And what, Jean, she`s like Thor? She just holds up her hand and the knife just comes to it? She has no recollection, the knife just appeared in her hand?

CASAREZ: She testified, and let me say something on her behalf -- she testified the knife was either left in the bathroom or the bedroom, she didn`t remember. If it was in the bathroom, it would be easier access for her, but the end of one minute and two seconds, look at the blood on Travis. He`s on the floor, and there is blood all over him. She had to get that knife fast and do that work.

GRACE: Jane, as usual, you`re right. Everybody, Dr. Drew up next. We`re going to be camped outside the courthouse again tomorrow night, taking your calls. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END