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Nancy Grace
Psychologist Testifies for Arias Defense
Aired March 14, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
After nearly 20 days on the stand, now the shrink, the psychologist for Jodi Arias, is taking center stage. And what we learn is that he is claiming something called global amnesia, global amnesia that can be brought on by, believe it or not, sex.
Everyone, the testimony is still going live. Let`s go straight into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... persistently reexperienced in at least one of the following ways. Recurrent images, thoughts, dreams, illusions, flashbacks or a sense of reliving the experience or distress on exposure to reminders of the traumatic event.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, can you tell us -- explain to us generally what does that means?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, basically, that means that a person reexperiences the event somehow. Either they`ll have a bad dream, several bad dreams. They`ll have recurrent thoughts about the situation. They`ll have illusions. They may see shadows moving that remind them of it. They may have flashback episodes of the actual crime. Or they may sense that they`re reliving the experience. Or they may have distress on exposure to reminders of the traumatic event.
Now, that, my feeling was the -- was one of the reasons why the story was made up, to keep her distance from having to be reminded of her involvement in the traumatic event.
D, marked avoidance of stimuli that arouse recollections of the trauma, blocking of thoughts, feelings, conversations, activities, places and people -- another characteristic of the story. Marked symptoms...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you talk about the story, Doctor, you`re talking about, like, the intruder story...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The intruder story. I`m sorry. (INAUDIBLE) more specific.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s OK. Basically, Ms. Arias`s denial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct. Marked symptoms of anxiety or increased arousal, difficulty sleeping, irritability, poor concentration, hyper-vigilance, exaggerated startle response and motor restlessness.
OK and (INAUDIBLE) OK, then the disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of life, or impairs the individual`s ability to pursue some necessary task, such as obtaining necessary assistance, which was clearly obvious here, or mobilizing personal resources by telling family members about the traumatic experience.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, so what`s clearly...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was not able to tell her family about what happened. She was not able to tell anybody about what happened. And this is a classic symptom of an acute stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do we know that she wasn`t able to tell anybody versus she just doesn`t want to get into any trouble?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that -- I guess that could be an alternative explanation. But when something horrible like that happens, can you imagine the feeling of isolation if you can`t turn to a parent, if you can`t turn to a friend, if you can`t turn to a professional to seek some help? The turmoil must have been incredible. So I consider that to be a significant indication that she suffered from that disorder.
The disturbance lasts for a minimum of two days and a maximum of four weeks and occurs within four weeks of the traumatic event. That fits. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance, like drug abuse or medication or a general medical condition, is not better accounted for by a brief psychotic disorder -- we saw no indications of that -- and is not merely an exacerbation of preexisting axis (ph) one or axis (ph) two disorders.
So she, in my opinion, experienced an acute -- acute distress disorder. Since you can`t use that diagnosis for more than a month or two, you then have to switch to a post-traumatic stress disorder, if those other symptoms exist. And the time that I evaluated her over a period of time, she manifested or verbalized to me all the symptoms that I indicated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of PTSD.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of PTSD.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, so you said that with regard to diagnosing somebody with acute stress, you said that it can`t be diagnosed unless you`re talking or meeting with them at the time that it`s going on, is that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within about a month or so of the incident, maybe two months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And so because you didn`t speak to Ms. Arias until I think December of 2009...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... can you make a diagnose of acute distress?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, but you can more or less suggest that it probably happened, based upon what I heard from her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And acute stress -- you said that -- because it only lasts for so long, because the diagnosis can only be given so long, up to four weeks, does it typically go into something else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It typically -- if it continues, it`s usually post- traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So in other words, when you say continues, it`s if there is criteria still existing, it usually is manifest into PTSD?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, the criteria change from acute stress disorder to post-traumatic stress disorder. But there are similarities and overlaps.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it fit. It fit the diagnosis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And with regard to -- so we have post- traumatic stress disorder, and that`s something -- is that something that you can diagnose by speaking with her and everything that you`ve told us about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the test results, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So with regard to the acute stress, what does that do -- not just the memory of what happened on June 4th, does that have any memory issues with regard to two to four weeks out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A person could still have some difficulty formulating clear memories because the hippocampus may still be influenced by the flood of adrenalin and other chemicals that interfere with its ability to create memories.
Now, during the flooding, the physiological flooding of the hippocampus and the other areas of the brain involved with memory, we would begin to see it dissipating after the trauma dissipates, goes away. But the impact may remain for some time. But gradually, the chemicals dissipate. They`re flushed out, and the memory capabilities are restored.
And so what may happen is that memories -- some memories can be retained and formed anew, but they may not be clear. They may be foggy. They may be part -- they may be snapshots in the brain, or they may even be confused in some way. But that`s -- this not at all uncommon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have the spotty memory?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, because memory doesn`t -- it`s not like a switch on the wall, where it`s off for one minute and on the next. It`s a gradual and not necessarily smooth improvement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Judge, may we approach?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, they are going up to a sidebar, as you can see. When you hear, it sounds like the just sound diminishes. When you`re actually in the courtroom, you hear a static sound, kind of like (INAUDIBLE) like that.
Unleash the lawyers. Let`s go out to Monica Lindstrom (ph), a defense attorney who has been in court all day long. Can I see Monica, Liz, and Greg McKeithen, defense attorney joining me out of Atlanta. First of all to you, Monica. Thank you for being with us. The transient global amnesia defense that this shrink, psychologist Dick Samuels, says can be brought on by sex -- yes, no, have you ever heard of it?
MONICA LINDSTROM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I haven`t heard of this particular example. But he is a really good witness...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Monica...
LINDSTROM: ... and he is explaining very clearly...
GRACE: Monica, thank you...
(CROSSTALK)
LINDSTROM: ... could happen to Jodi.
GRACE: ... so much. Thank you. That was just kind of a yes/no question. Greg McKeithen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney -- transient global amnesia, it`s kind of like a brief amnesia that you have while you`re murdering somebody. Question. He says it can be brought on by sex. Have you -- this is a yes/no, Greg. Have you ever before this trial heard of transient global amnesia?
GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I have not, Nancy.
GRACE: Did you know that statistically, only 3 out of 100,000 people claim to have had transient global amnesia, 3 out of 100,000?
MCKEITHEN: I was not aware of that.
GRACE: And Monica, I know that you think this is a good expert, but did you know that statistic, 3 out of 100,000 people claim that they have transient global amnesia? That`s a staggering statistic.
LINDSTROM: Yes. I did not know about that statistic, but hey, maybe she`s one of the three. That`s what this expert is trying to say.
GRACE: You`re right. And as we all know, statistics are not allowed in court.
OK, I`m hearing in my ear -- let`s go back into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the general population, between 3 and 8 people per 100,000 people each year experience transient global amnesia. And the amazing thing is that here -- here are things that can cause that -- sudden immersion in cold or hot water, physical exertion, emotional or psychological stress, pain, medical procedures, sexual intercourse. And similar events have been observed in 50 to 90 percent of these documented attacks of transient global amnesia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s take the immersion in hot or cold water. Does that mean somebody won`t remember being immersed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It clouds -- apparently, those are -- that`s been reported for people who have a lack of memory for having been immersed in the hot or cold -- I don`t know how they get into the hot or cold water (INAUDIBLE) I didn`t look at the details of these studies...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) He`s saying you can get transient global amnesia by being submerged under hot or cold water. Do you really think the jury`s going to believe this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do they remember anything? Maybe, maybe not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you do any testing with Ms. Arias?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you had told us that you met with her for over 12 different period -- 12 -- 12 different -- different times?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And during some of those times, did you - - did you give her certain tests?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What tests did you give her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I administered two psychological tests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And which are those?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I administered the Milan (ph) Clinical Multiaxal (ph) Inventory, third revision.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And what else?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then I administered to her the post-traumatic stress disorder test.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait. You have the DSM.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you`re meeting with somebody, do you form hypothesis about what you think their diagnosis might be?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you do that based on the criteria that you see in the DSM?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not initially.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get a feeling for what`s going on, and you begin to remember, Oh, this person`s having this reaction or having this reaction. Let me see a little more closely. Then you might go through the specific criteria after reviewing the notes and spending more time with them, and so forth.
Because I suspected that they may have been post-traumatic stress disorder, and because I got indications on the Milan test that they were, I then decided to give this test, and that confirmed the presence of a post- traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The person has to be very familiar with the test and PTSD itself to try and fake the answers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you told us, I think, already, that this particular test confirmed your hypothesis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your hypothesis -- well, what was your -- what -- what did it confirm for you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it confirmed that she did suffer from post- traumatic stress disorder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you bitch.
JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: He didn`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bitch until I got away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flight or flee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real operative phrase (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you bitch. You remember that one, right?
ARIAS: Absolutely, the threat on my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In moments of stress, the brain doesn`t allow us to contemplate.
ARIAS: "I can kill you, bitch."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that she did suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.
ARIAS: He was the immediate threat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the shortness of breath or her heart begins to pound.
ARIAS: ... constantly made excuses for him. Now I understand that the things that occurred were not OK.
-- choking me and passing out.
He had his hands around my neck and was banging my head on the carpet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Body goes into a flight or flight reaction...
ARIAS: ... started kicking me, hands around my windpipe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... bits and pieces of what happened...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Three-hole wonder"?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A slut?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a whore?
ARIAS: Yes.
-- called me a bitch, I`m worthless, and he tells me I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He kicked my ribs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has PTSD, is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ARIAS: Sort of like a huge gap, like, I don`t know if I blacked out or what. There`s a huge gap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the memories aren`t there, they ain`t there.
Sexual intercourse and similar events have been observed in 50 to 90 percent of these documented attacks of transient global amnesia.
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and camped outside that Phoenix courthouse, bringing you the very latest. Testimony ongoing. The lawyers went to a sidebar. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," with us. Jean, have you ever heard of transient global amnesia that can be brought on by sex or immersion in hot or cold water?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": I have now, and it`s 8 in 100,000 people, and you don`t have to be under stress to have this amnesia come over you. And it can be a lot of different things, the immersion in the water, sexual intercourse, sudden immersion, physical exertion, medical tests, medical procedures that you`re having. And you do come out of it, though, and then you`re OK and you can remember.
GRACE: Well, it`s been a while since this happened. When is she going to come out of it? And my recollection of Dr. Samuels`s testimony was that it was 3 to 8 out of 100,000 people.
CASAREZ: That`s correct, 3 to 8 of 100,000 people. That`s right. You know, he met with Jodi Arias 12 times in the last...
GRACE: Over three years.
CASAREZ: ... three years. And he said that she had -- yes. And he said that she had journals from junior high school all through the present, and he read every single word of those journals and that helped him form his opinions.
GRACE: Really, Jean? Well, you know that`s interesting.
Let me go to a shrink very quickly, before we go back into the courtroom. Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, New York, since she admits that she lied to her own shrink to cover up her involvement in Travis`s murder, what good does it do to read her journals that are chock full of lies? He met with her only 12 times over three years. That`s four times a year. Half those times she was lying. So he`s evaluated her over just six meetings?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, and the primary thing that one has to do with a post-traumatic stress patient is to help them feel safe and to trust them. Well, that doesn`t happen in 12 meetings over three years.
Also, the fact that this doctor never read the details about this study really gives me a lot of question about the validity of his training and his conclusions.
GRACE: Well, another thing, Dr. Saunders, is everybody that`s ever tried a case or had a patient, such as you do every single day -- he does not see patients every single day. He gets reimbursement from the state as a forensic psychologist. He said he was, quote, "over it" dealing with, you know, patients outside the penal system. But he was actually reading -- he had to read from the DSM, the diagnostic manual that shrinks use to, you know, narrow down what the ailment is. He had to read from it. That was not very reassuring.
SAUNDERS: No, it wasn`t very reassuring. I (ph) should be able to reel it off like that. And some of his conclusions are dead wrong. Acute stress disorder does not automatically turn into post-traumatic stress disorder. They`re quite different.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live in the courtroom. Testimony has been ongoing. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But eventually, I was able to move out here, and I`ve been here full-time I think around six or seven years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And what kind of practice did you build here in Arizona?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forensic only.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I only do forensic cases here, no therapy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is there a reason for that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the reimbursement rates are a lot lower out here. And I had done therapy for about 34 years, so I had enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had enough?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had enough.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m over it? How would you like it if your doctor said, I`m over you, I`m over dealing with you? Well, that is the psychologist that they have called for Jodi Arias. And I am not challenging his credentials. I absolutely am not.
Joining me, Beth Karas, legal correspondent, "In Session," also at the courthouse along with Jean Casarez. Beth, what do you make of the shrink?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": You know, the critical issue is still to come. And the judge is about to make a decision on something really, really important.
This doctor came into court with new information that the prosecutor hadn`t been made aware of before today. And he intends, in his upcoming testimony, if the judge allows it, to explain the difference between instrumental homicides and expressive or reactive homicides. It`s simply another way of saying the difference between premeditated and really like a heat of passion. It`s the difference between first degree and second degree here. They don`t really have a heat of passion here, but it would be the difference between first and second.
He`s not allowed to tell the jury in his opinion this was a reaction or lower-level homicide, that it wasn`t first degree or premeditated, because that`s the jury`s decision. But if he gets on the stand and he says, Well, in instrumental homicides, there`s planning, and there`s no PTSD. But in an expressive or reactive homicide, where there`s a lot of rage and there`s a stressful situation, that`s where you get PTSD -- he`s basically telling the jury exactly what the judge forbade. He`s basically telling the jury this is premeditated or she wouldn`t have PTSD.
There are also problems with PTSD. The way I understood his testimony, it was based a large part on her self-reporting, giving herself all of these symptoms. So that`s still to come. He`s still on the stand. We`ll see what the judge rules.
GRACE: Let`s go back into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regard to transient amnesia syndromes -- that`s the next slide. Is that the title...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... of the article that you relied upon?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, and can you tell us what this article has to say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, it says that temporally circumscribed amnesia -- which means time-limited amnesia, amnesia from one period -- from the starting point to the end point, whatever that is -- is associated with a specific and unusually emotionally charged event, such as a criminal offense.
Now, the interesting thing is that the data shows that the proportion of amnesia is proportional to the violence of the offense. And up to 30 percent of convicted homicide cases have amnesia claimed at trial. And it`s been established that perpetrators of horrible crimes can also develop post-traumatic stress disorder for having acted as the source of the crime. For example, soldiers -- our soldiers in Afghanistan report post-traumatic stress disorder because they were involved in the killing of the enemy. Police officers, people that I`ve treated, who shoot a victim, either...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He just compared Jodi Arias to the fallen soldiers in Afghanistan! Did you hear that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: There was physical violence, but I never took any photos specifically, to photograph the bruises, and his fingerprints, the finger marks. I never would have thought of incriminating Travis. And it is not anything that -- I felt like by photographing something or documenting it or writing it down, it solidifies it and it brings it more into -- and that`s something that I was hoping would go away.
I was just ashamed. Like we -- I didn`t want people to know that he did that to me. I was definitely ashamed and embarrassed and I just didn`t want people to look at me differently, because I put up with that or went through that or somehow it was my fault, because I elicited that from Travis, I did things that provoked him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was Jodi Arias on the stand, and now her shrink, psychologist, Dr. Dick Samuels, a psychologist, has taken center stage. He is claiming to this jury with a straight face that his client, Jodi Arias, suffered transient global amnesia, temporary -- just a block of amnesia that was just that one day, that one moment when she murdered Travis Alexander, 20 stab wounds and a gunshot wound to her lover. And that fog she was in in the desert.
We are taking your calls. Very quickly before it goes back to testimony, Nadine, in Florida.
Hi, dear, what`s your question?
NADINE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy, I really love your show, I always watch you.
GRACE: Thank you.
NADINE: I just want to say that I`m a victim of gun violence, and I got shot, and it came out of my neck. And to this day, I can remember every detail. I never blacked out and I remember everything. So this post- traumatic stress is really a crock. It`s an insult to people that really have it.
GRACE: And you know, comparing her to American heroes that gave their lives, for me, for us, in Afghanistan, I think that was just wrong.
Matt Zarrell, also on the story, weigh in on this transient global amnesia, and what Nadine has just said.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, I think that one of the big points here is that he keeps going back to the fact that this amnesia would occur when she was under a great deal of stress. So it wasn`t stressful when he body slammed her to the ground. It wasn`t stressful when she tried to run away when he was chasing after her, it wasn`t stressful when she grabbed the gun. It wasn`t stressful when she turned around and pointed the gun at him and shot him.
It wasn`t stressful when she got away and it wasn`t stressful when she specifically remembered the words that Travis said to her after the gun went off. But yet after that, then she doesn`t remember anything.
GRACE: With me, senior reporter, RadarOnlinecom, Alexis Tereszcuk. So transient global amnesia brought on by sex. Weigh in.
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Well, the thing is, her entire relationship with Travis, she was having sex, lots of sex, all kinds of sex. She can remember every single detail about that sex, including the brand of lubricant she was using, but she never forgot that. So that doesn`t really jive with what he said today, that it would -- that sex had caused. And she remembered her claim of when he kicked her and broke her finger before. That stress didn`t make her forget what happened. So this is only the minute and two seconds or minute or two seconds that she can`t remember?
GRACE: With me, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation, Marc Klaas. Marc, weigh in.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I agree with all of the expert analysis, and I don`t come from a position of a -- of a disciplined like the rest of your panel does, but I can tell you that given all the pre-planning, the fact that he proved that her theory, that he -- that she couldn`t -- that her theory of how he died could not have worked, that this is way too little, way too late for the jury to think that this gal is going to be one of the three out of 100,000 that is affected by this obscure and absurd defense theory, I think is asking way too much of these 12 jurors.
GRACE: Well, Marc Klaas, you`re saying you don`t come from a discipline like the rest of the panel. You know what, I want it with you, Marc, because you and I are both crime victims. Can you imagine if the man that killed your daughter got up on the stand and said he had transient global amnesia?
KLAAS: Well, some of the things he did were far worse than that. But I sat there.
GRACE: True.
KLAAS: I saw the defense witnesses. And I see -- there is a pool of these characters that are willing to say almost anything to get almost anybody off of any kind of a crime.
GRACE: And back out to Jean Casarez and Beth Karas.
Jean Casarez, I found it very, very interesting about the knife because we are learning that everything in the dishwasher was tested.
You know, Jean, you and Beth and I go way back to Court TV, where we watched trials for a living, day in, day out. And we have seen many, many cases, all three of us, where defendants try on purpose to get rid of DNA and blood evidence by the rinse cycle, the washing machine, but even using bleach, even using bleach, we all remember the Crane case, the man that killed the little girl, I believe her name was Amanda Brown, put her body in a crab truck and he completely Cloroxed the whole kitchen?
And Scott Peterson we saw trying to get rid of evidence in the washing machine. So even using bleach doesn`t get rid of DNA evidence. Are you actually telling me that she stabbed him with a kitchen knife, drops it in the dishwasher, and that gets rid of DNA evidence when bleach won`t do it, Jean?
CASAREZ: Nancy, did they test the knives in the dishwasher? I have heard no evidence that they tested the knives. It has not come into this trial, not at all.
GRACE: Those are the reports that I am hearing. I don`t know if it is going to be introduced or not that the state looked at the knives that were in the dishwasher. There was no DNA. Nothing was found.
If that is true, Beth Karas, it is absolutely impossible to have gotten DNA off a knife by going through the soft rinse cycle.
KARAS: True, now we did look at the pictures of the knives in the house. And there were some knives probably big enough to cause that massive slash across his throat that was three and a half, four inches deep, all the way back to his spinal cord and all the stab wounds on his back and torso.
But the blade had to be at least five inches long. Now five inches isn`t all that long, a steak knife which could do that. But if it was a big knife like what caused that big slash across his throat, because that was a sharp knife, she wasn`t -- it wasn`t several cuts. It was one slash across his throat. One has to wonder if her story is true, why a big knife like that was needed to cut that little rope, for her wrist, which she says it was just a little soft, like a silk rope, why would you need that? She just needs a little knife or scissors or something. So she needed a reason for a knife being upstairs. And if it was something that big she probably took it with her and got rid of it with the gun.
GRACE: Let`s go back in for testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with regard to PTSD, let`s talk about your specific diagnosis, then, what`s specific to Jodi?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Criterion A-1, which is as follows. The person experienced, witnessed or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury or threat to the physical integrity of self or others.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how does that relate to Miss Arias?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she was involved in a homicide. We have some data to show that perpetrators of violent crimes will frequently develop post-traumatic stress disorder from having been the initiator of such an event. A-2. The person`s response involved, intense fear, helplessness or horror.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how does that relate to Miss Arias?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In describing her experiences, what she could remember, and the very fact that her defense mechanisms were built up so strongly that she couldn`t confront the reality of what she did, I consider criteria A-2 as having been met.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, this week in the Jodi Arias trial, we all expected a bombshell in the re-direct examination of Jodi Arias, to try and rehabilitate the scathing cross-examination she underwent last week at the hands of the prosecution. But instead it seemed more like a broken record. We got more of the same that we heard on direct.
And as a matter of fact, the defense -- I guess it was planned. But seemingly unwittingly brought their client down off the stand for yet another demonstration. And I`m sure the prosecution was very happy about that.
We`ve come this far in the trial. And there has been a lot of damning evidence. This may be the very last chance, re-direct examination for the defense to turn the case around. It is all on them now.
ARIAS: I think that I have a good memory. And June 4th was an anomaly for me.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Is that the same as being in a fog?
ARIAS: Well, I just woken up so maybe I was a little bit.
JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, MARICOPA COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: How is it possible you remember such details if you had a foggy memory?
ARIAS: The fog or the confusion only begins when he starts screaming. As far as the fog goes, it`s more, again, just words that are being spoken.
STEPHENS: Were you in the fog when you were kissing Ryan?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Stayed down when you got up, right?
ARIAS: I don`t remember a lot after that.
STEPHENS: You have no memory of stabbing Travis?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
MARTINEZ: That would be this gentleman, right?
ARIAS: I don`t remember --
MARTINEZ: The gun was unloaded, right?
ARIAS: I don`t remember the specific answer I gave on that. I didn`t know I shot him. I don`t recall clearly what happens in those moments. I was a little like discombobulated at lunging and the gun going off, I don`t remember. Lying is -- isn`t typically something I just do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are camped outside the courthouse, joining me, Jean Casarez, Beth Karas, Alexis Tereszcuk, Matt Zarrell, all on the story.
Matt, you have some late-breaking news regarding the defense psychologist?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, with help from our viewers we`ve discovered a prior incident with Dr. Richard Samuels in 2000, in New Jersey where he was fined for making a custody recommendation without examining the mother, and for bartering services with the father of the case in exchange for dental services. Now he paid a fine and this has been confirmed. His license number on the document matches Richard Samuels` license number. This was in 2000 in New Jersey. And he was fined for this.
GRACE: I was wondering why he would give up private practice in the location where he had been for so many years to go treat inmates in Arizona. And on -- explain to me, what did you say about he gave -- he counseled patients and bartered in exchange for dental services?
ZARRELL: Yes, I will read from the document itself, it says that respondent bartered services with the father so that the father received psychotherapeutic services from respondent which is Samuels, in exchange the respondent Samuels receiving dental services from the father.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Monica Lindstrom, Greg McKeithen, also clinical psychologist, Dr. Patricia Saunders.
So, Monica Lindstrom, is that the type of thing that the state will bring in against him on cross examination, when they begin to cross-examine this psychologist in front of the jury?
LINDSTROM: Of course they will. They`re going to bring anything and everything they possibly can in order to shut this witness down to show that he doesn`t know what he`s talking about or to show he`s not credible or they just shouldn`t believe him, or just quite frankly he is not a good person.
Everything they`re going to use and they will -- if they find that fact, they are going to try to use it. The defense can try to say hey, look, it doesn`t matter, that doesn`t need to come in, but if the state gets ahold of it, they`re going to use it and I think the judge will let them.
GRACE: What about it, Greg?
GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously if he is my expert witness, I`m going to present him as an expert based on his education, his experience, his exposure and training, and let the jury decide what weight to give his testimony.
GRACE: OK, that in no way answered my question. Dr. Saunders, what do you make of this?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, those actions, they`re unethical, and may border on the legal -- this is a custody case. If he was soliciting services, bartering from the father, that may have been part of a plot for him to say this father is a good guy, so he would get custody and not the mother. It awaits investigation but it don`t sound kosher.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: So if you drop the knife, where did you drop to from if not your hand?
ARIAS: Presumably my hand. I just don`t remember gripping it.
MARTINEZ: Did I ask you whether or not you had gripped it?
ARIAS: That`s what I took it as.
MARTINEZ: This issue about gripping has nothing to do with it, does it?
ARIAS: I would think it would.
MARTINEZ: Do you think how strongly you were gripping it is important to this case?
ARIAS: I wasn`t talking about the strength of the grip. Just that I --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTINEZ: I`m asking you -- just now, that was the question.
ARIAS: Will you repeat that?
MARTINEZ: Do you think that how strong you were gripping it is important to this case?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me at the courthouse is a friend and former co-worker of Travis Alexander, also knows Jodi Arias. Julie Christopher.
Julie, thank you for being with us.
JULIE CHRISTOPHER, FRIEND AND FORMER CO-WORKER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: You`re welcome, ma`am.
GRACE: Julie, you know that Jodi Arias` testimony is now over and now her psychologist is on the stand claiming she had transient global amnesia that could be induced by sex. What is your reaction to her testimony? And do you think she took some perverse delight in dragging Travis Alexander through the mud?
CHRISTOPHER: Nancy, everything with Jodi is absolutely calculated. The Jodi before was calculated. The Jodi now is calculated. You know, through the trial, she loves the fame. I read her as an actor. And she create her own reality, Nancy, where she`s the only one in it. I can see her maybe out of body experience where the audience is the jury and her, her coach, if you will is the prosecutor. And she`s the actor.
Unfortunately she`s not a very good actress. But everything is calculated, Nancy. And she`s a sexual deviant. She`s after sex. This is a crime of passion. A crime of sex. And it has to do with sex. And I truly believe that killing your boyfriend and the Travis that I now, dear Travis, killing him a few minutes after sex had to be a crime of sex. And maybe she was just not satisfied enough with the sex that she had to, you know, finish it up, to get off on it.
I don`t know. But she`s a very sexual, passionate person, and she definitely manipulated Travis through her encounters with Travis with sexually behavior, one after the other, resulted in this horrifying crime, Nancy. And I believe that she`s really reading, enjoying what`s going on. She loves the spotlight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero Marine Corporal Paul Miller, just 22, Traverse City, Michigan. Purple Heart, loved baseball, snowboarding, motorcycles. Parents James and Theresa, sister Ashley, wife Sarah.
Paul Miller, American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Shaking all the days but most commonly on the first day of cross.
MARTINEZ: Did you see Mr. Alexander inside that house, yes or no?
ARIAS: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Are you saying you lied?
ARIAS: No. The whole body trembled.
MARTINEZ: You`re in love with him and you didn`t want to let him go.
ARIAS: That`s not right.
MARTINEZ: You`re being territorial about him, weren`t you?
ARIAS: No.
MARTINEZ: You ended up in his bed, right?
ARIAS: I think it was a love sex. My teeth would have been chattering. So I was shaking that much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Ashley, Nebraska. Hi, Ashley, what`s your question?
ASHLEY, CALLER FROM NEBRASKA: Yes. Jodi said that after she shot Travis he said, I`m going to kill you. And one of the jurors asked her why not just shoot him again, why did you have to stab him? And she said, when he hit me he knocked the gun out of my hand so she went looking for a knife. And my question is, if Travis was such a big threat, why would she leave him alone in the bathroom with access to a loaded gun?
GRACE: Excellent question. Do I still have Jean Casarez or Beth with me? Jean is with me?
Jean, did you hear that question? I never thought that made sense either, that she would leave him with a weapon, a gun, when he said, I`m going to kill you, and run off and search for a knife.
CASAREZ: I think that she trusted the gun was for security, but let me add to that question. She testified the knife was either in the bathroom or in the bedroom. If the knife was in the bathroom, that`s even closer than the gun was to Travis.
GRACE: You`re right. You`re right.
Jill in Mississippi. Hi, Jill. What`s your question? I think I`ve got Jill in Mississippi. Jill, are you with me?
JILL, CALLER FROM MISSISSIPPI: Yes, I am.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
JILL: Well, my question is the fight or flight. You go with your basic instinct. If you`re scared in the woods by a bear, a woman would run. A hunter would pull a -- pull a gun and shoot the bear. You`re comparing Jodi Arias against a police officer? How did she become so creative and think outside the box?
GRACE: You know, Jean, that`s an interesting question. The fight or flight, compared to what she`s saying on the stand.
CASAREZ: Very interesting, because what the defense is saying is your brain shuts down and it can`t remember because it`s fighting.
GRACE: Everyone, as we go to break, a special hello to Illinois and Georgia friends, Michael and Megan Duffy. Family of our superstar Mike Duffy.
Everyone, court is in recess. "DR. DREW" is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
