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Jane Velez-Mitchell
New Interrogation Video of Jodi Arias Released
Aired March 20, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. As we go back into the courtroom, newly-released interrogation tapes are just coming out as we speak. And we`re just now seeing the very moment Jodi Arias is told, "Hey, honey, you`re about to be arrested." Check out what Jodi is worried about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury indicted you.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER SUSPECT: It`s all public now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s public record.
ARIAS: So does everyone know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If somebody looks and checks the public record. We don`t report anything.
ARIAS: On the news tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t report anything to the new.
ARIAS: Has his family called today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they don`t even know that I`m talking to you.
ARIAS: But they`ve been calling every day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day.
ARIAS: Are you going to talk to them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you feel if your little brother or sister was killed?
ARIAS: I`ve been wanting to call every day. I didn`t want to look obsessive. So I just tried to limit it to once a week. This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am. But before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you`re going to see more strange behavior by this defendant, just in. Take a look at this. Yes, she sits on the floor in the interrogation room and is flipping her hair around. This is as she is about to be arrested for murder.
And we`ve got still more breaking news from inside court of the jury in Arizona, going to ask questions. They`re about to start asking questions of defense psychologist Dr. Richard Samuels, the one who`s backing up her sob story that she had amnesia after she killed Travis and went into a fog, even though she did all sorts of things to clean up the crime scene.
But they can`t get started because somebody got sick. Let`s go to Jean Casarez from "In Session." You`re there at court in Phoenix, Arizona. What`s going on?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": It`s bizarre, but it`s true. They were just about to get going with the questions and we still will momentarily, but Jane, a court watcher, a member of the public, actually just threw up in the aisle, right there in the courtroom, and so they have to clean it up. And so we`re detained a little bit.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Guess what? We heard they just canceled court for the day. So I`ve got to go back to you, Jean. I mean, what is this? Day 35, 4, 5, what?
CASAREZ: I think 35.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Day...
CASAREZ: I think it`s day 35. And this witness -- yes. What is left are the questions for this witness from the jury.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s unbelievable. I mean, this has entered a surreal zone. You want to talk about dissociative amnesia, I think we`re all suffering from a little PTSD right now. This is going at a glacial pace. We were about the hear the questions from the jurors themselves to this defense psychologist, Dr. Richard Samuels, who is really going to go down in the record books for putting phrases like "global transient amnesia" and "dissociative amnesia" in the record books.
And the prosecutor essentially established that Jodi Arias lied to the psychologist. So we were just about to get an insight from the jurors themselves about what questions do they have. Well, now, oh, some member of the public throws up, and court`s canceled for the day. I don`t get it.
Jean Casarez, you`ve covered so many cases. Why don`t they just clean it up and have people come back in?
CASAREZ: You know, Jane, we don`t know, obviously. But I`ll tell you this. It`s a very big courtroom. But the gallery area is not that large. And if somebody threw up and it was right there, you know, maybe...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say no more. Say no more. I think I got what you`re saying.
Well, the big story, actually, today is this video. This new video that`s coming in. In fact, our executive producer is in her office, watching the feed, hours and hours of footage coming in of her interrogation tapes that we`ve never seen before.
Prosecutors claim, of course, Jodi plotted to murder Travis Alexander in a jealous rage, because he was dating other women and taking another woman to Cancun. Jodi has always insisted, "No, I`m not the jealous type. This wasn`t a revenge killing. I wasn`t upset about Travis dating."
But in this just-released interrogation tape -- and we got this in minutes ago, we`ve literally reracked the tape -- Jodi admits to the cops she`s not OK with Travis dating other women and that he was desperate to get married to someone else. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: He was like, "You know, Travis is dating."
And I said OK. And I assumed he was, you know, going on dates and things.
He`s like, "No, he`s really trying to date."
And -- and I said, "OK."
And he`s like, "He`s desperate to get married." So that night, you know, I confronted him about it, and we had a really big fight. It was also a bunch of things thrown in (ph) and mixed together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That, again, just in. Nobody`s seen it before, along with this doozy. Fixing her hair as she`s about to be arrested for murder.
Jodi told us on the stand that she was perfectly fine with Travis dating other women and she was too scared to confront him about anything.
OK. Now we`re hearing that she`s telling the detective, Detective Flores, "Oh, yes, we had a big fight about his dating other women."
Let`s debate it with our expert sidebar debate panel. I should call you -- rename you our "court is over for the day" panel. Should the prosecutor reintroduce this tape or introduce it, I should say, in his rebuttal case? This goes to the heart of her motive. She has just admitted on tape, "Yes, I was jealous of him dating other women." Starting with Stacey Honowitz for the prosecution.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, absolutely. Listen, the fact of the matter is she has lied throughout the entire course of the investigation and while she was sitting on the stand in court.
Juan Martinez was able to extract all of the lies, and certainly, everybody got to hear her basically say that she was fine with Travis dating, that she wished him well. She thought everything was going to be OK. She knew that they weren`t right for each other. And here you have an entire contradiction of what she said in court to the jury that`s trying her. So if need be, if he needs to reintroduce the rebuttal and he thinks it`s necessary, it would be great to play it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dana Swickle for the defense. I mean, this woman is admitting she had a motive for murder, that yes, they had a huge fight about him dating other women.
DANA SWICKLE, ATTORNEY: Look, you know, I mean, she`s going to say, "I -- we had a fight. We had an argument." And then another part of the interview, she says, "OK, well, I knew that he was wanting to date. And I knew that he was wanting to get married to someone else."
If I was the defense, I`d brush over it. I don`t think it`s that big of a deal. I think you just move on. If he introduces it, he introduces it. And I think from the defense point of view, you just move past it. Because there`s no reason to continue to rehash it over and over and over again.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Selin Darkalstanian, our senior producer, who has been in court for all of this. Another crazy day in this mega-trial like a freight train, running out of control, off the rails. Just when we thought, OK, we`re getting somewhere, suddenly, somebody pukes -- excuse my French -- and, ehh, that`s it, done for the day.
What`s the buzz? I know when I`m a reporter in court, often the reporters are the ones Scooby-Dooing the real story. What`s the chatter?
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: The chatter is that this is really -- it seems like it`s really slowed down. And we don`t see the light at the end of the tunnel at this point. That`s the real chatter in the courtroom.
But just before somebody did, you know, throw up in court today, we -- I was actually looking at the gallery, Jane, and the part where the public can sit. And it is packed. I can tell you that not only is it packed, but people are seated outside waiting to get seats. So there`s court employees who are, as soon as somebody leaves their seat and isn`t returning, they bring somebody else in their place.
That gallery is packed. There`s so much interest in this case it is unbelievable. There`s not one empty seat. And there`s always a line outside of court for people trying to get in. They want to see this trial in action.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I heard -- I heard there`s something like 100 questions from these jurors for this defense psychologist who is pushing the fog?
DARKALSTANIAN: Yes. Exactly. There is about 100 questions, and Jane, just a few moments ago, I saw a few more pieces of paper in that box. So there`s probably even more by the end of today. There were still two or three pieces of paper that the court reporter has to come and take.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
DARKALSTANIAN: So there`s so many questions. Remember, Jodi had about 250 questions. And this psychologist has 100 questions. You`re thinking what are they going to ask him?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, my -- my question is, if you`re -- all the talking heads say, "Oh, this is an open-and-shut case. She`s going to be convicted. They`ve made up their minds." Why ask these questions, then, if they`ve made up their minds? We`re going to debate that in a second.
But let`s listen to what this defense psychologist had to say. Now, the prosecutor says Jodi keeps changing the details of her story about what happened the day she killed Travis Alexander.
For example, Jodi has told several different stories about exactly how Travis reportedly tied her up with rope for kinky sex shortly before she killed him. Defense psychologist Richard Samuels testified just a little while ago about what Jodi Arias told him about the tying up session.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When she`s discussing the first time, did she talk to you about the type of rope?
DR. RICHARD SAMUELS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And what was that?
SAMUELS: It was twine.
WILLMOTT: Twine. And is that -- did she discuss with you that -- whether or not that worked well?
SAMUELS: It did not work well, as it burned her wrists. And in her words, "It didn`t work out for us."
WILLMOTT: When she talks to you about the second time with the rope, does -- did you -- does she talk to you about how she was tied?
SAMUELS: Yes. I have written in my notes that she was tied by the ankles as well as the hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s debate it with our expert legal panel. The point is, not so much whether or not she has PTSD. The prosecutor is trying to show she`s lying again. She has several different stories about how she was tied up. Once by the ankles, no, the other time, it was just by the wrists. One time she couldn`t slip out of the wrists; the next time she could slip out of the wrists.
And Jon Lieberman, is this just another example that this woman is a pathological liar?
JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. This is a case, Jane, about credibility. Jodi Arias has zero credibility. I would argue to you that the reason why this jury has 100-plus questions is because they`re angry. They want the truth. They want this doctor to answer questions like why didn`t he re-administer the tests when he knew that the results were based on lies?
This is a jury that, as you saw with the questions to Jodi, they are hungry for the truth. And they feel like they`re not getting it. Because it`s about credibility. And none of these people seem to have any.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but if they`re so sure that she`s guilty, Dana, and they want to get out of there, because this is day 30-something of the trial, the last thing I would be doing is writing questions. I`ve made up my mind, she`s a pathological liar. She has a motive to kill. Why am I asking this guy 100 questions?
SWICKLE: You are so right. You hit the nail on the head. We are going on day 35, 36. Now they have 100 questions, and now we`ve heard that they have even more than 100 questions? If I`m a juror and I think she`s a pathological liar, and it`s been proven already, you`re right. I want to get out of there. I think they`re asking the questions...
(CROSSTALK)
LIEBERMAN: This is a conscientious jury. This is a conscientious jury that realizes that they have a woman`s life in their hands. They want to do a good job.
SWICKLE: You`re right. They are -- exactly. Exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or they have doubts. Or they have doubts.
SWICKLE: Exactly. Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We will continue this debate on the other side and more stunning, sound audio. We have the audio of her actually getting arrested, just released. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but, before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
Could have done your makeup, Jodi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I can`t remember.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. What a crazy day in court today. We were about to hear -- in Arizona, jurors can to ask questions. They have 100-plus questions that I`m sure that the prosecution and defense have sifted through and debated over.
And then somebody gets sick, a member of the public, and boom. Now, just as that`s happening, as court is recessed for the day because of that upchuck, we are inputting stunning new footage of the police interrogation tape that`s just been released. We have people just vetting it as we speak.
Now, there is video of Jodi on the very day of her arrest that is just being released. And that, of course, she was arrested back in July 2008. The detective, Detective Flores, is about to charge her with murder. Listen carefully to more of what Jodi is worried about during that crucial moment of her life. She`s about to be arrested for murder. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
You should have done your make up Jodi, gosh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Seriously, my jaw is dropping. I mean, that really shows. That`s the mug shot, by the way, that after she got herself cleaned up, that`s a pretty good mug shot. I mean, I`ve seen worse head shots in Hollywood than that mug shot. But this is what she cares about.
Let`s go back to our debate panel. And Dana Swickle for the defense, that is pretty damming. If I were the prosecutor, I would have played that. Look at what she`s concerned about.
A man is stabbed 29 times, shot, his throat is slit. She`s lied. They capture the lies, and she`s about to be arrested. And she`s worried about how she`s going to look in the mug shot and wishes that she could get make up, admitting that she knows that it sounds shallow.
SWICKLE: Listen, you know, I mean, it`s -- as a defense attorney, you`ve got to spin things in your favor. And I could just as easily turn around and say, if she`s saying that and she`s thinking that way because she obviously is suffering from PTSD and doesn`t remember anything and doesn`t believe that she did anything.
(CROSSTALK)
SWICKLE: So you know, it`s always on how you present it. It`s always how you want to say something. And anytime, anyway, no one knows how she felt or what she was thinking as she was sitting there. And so you can`t necessarily judge. And if you spin it the right way, it`s not as bad as it seems.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey.
HONOWITZ: There`s no spinning that. You spin out of control on that one. She`s a narcissist and she`s a sociopath. That`s exactly what it goes to show.
And the fact of the matter is I don`t even know if the prosecutor would need to get that in to really make the case, because the fact of the matter is, she has no credibility whatsoever. She has none.
And this doctor and all the testimony that we`re hearing about PS -- PTSD, months later after the arrest. What does that have to do with premeditation?
LIEBERMAN: Yes. Thank you.
HONOWITZ: What does that have to do with taking a gun, getting the knife, getting the gas cans, traveling 1,000 miles? He hasn`t touched on any of that. So none of his testimony, quite frankly, is relevant to the charges.
SWICKLE: I`m sure all of those...
LIEBERMAN: Not to mention...
SWICKLE: All of it is going to be answered perfectly by the doctor. I`m sure that those are some of the questions that the jury has. And quite frankly, it has to do with a lot of it. I mean, you have to -- whether it`s four months after she`s arrested, a year after she`s arrested, it`s still an exam. It`s still conducted by a doctor. And there`s still relevant data there. And it will be...
LIEBERMAN: If you don`t remember -- if you don`t remember what happened, then how do you know it`s self-defense? If you don`t have any memory of what happened?
SWICKLE: Because what he tested her on was areas that she could fudge if she wanted to. And you heard her defense counsel talking about it. If she wanted to fudge it and make it seem worse and show that she was lying, she could have answered things in a certain way.
And you know what? You can even argue that she had time to even research how she could have answered it differently to make it look worse for her in reference to her memory.
(CROSSTALK)
LIEBERMAN: She already lied about everything else.
SWICKLE: And she didn`t answer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She did lie on the test. She said that she was attacked by two strangers who were ninjas with masks. And he evaluated her as having PTSD and global amnesia or whatever the heck based on those lies. So where is the credibility in his diagnosis?
And there were a million things wrong with his diagnosis. First of all, she didn`t even reach the threshold. The threshold is 75 to 85 on this test. And she hit a 69, and he upgraded her. She got an upgrade to PTSD.
LIEBERMAN: Because...
(CROSSTALK)
SWICKLE: The bottom line is, Jane, you have a doctor -- but you have a doctor who`s willing to take the stand and testify on her behalf.
HONOWITZ: But he`s a doctor who...
(CROSSTALK)
LIEBERMAN: He`s paid to do it. He`s getting paid $250 an hour. That is the worst rationale I`ve ever heard.
SWICKLE: I repeat, all you need is one person to believe in what he`s saying and to listen to what he`s saying. That`s all you need is one person. And I guarantee you, there may be one person on that jury...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hang on. We`ll be back in a second with more of this new interrogation tape. We`re going to play you the shocking new glimpses into Jodi Arias`s psychosis?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED FOR MURDER: Preparing for from the beginning because of words that were directly spoken from and acknowledged (ph). They were saying what they were planning to do from the very beginning, from my first day.
ARIAS: I`m not a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that, I would wear gloves or, you know, something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTINEZ: I`m not asking whether or not she was suicidal, right? Am I asking you that?
SAMUELS: No, you`re not.
MARTINEZ: And if she was suicidal, you`re not the treating physician, are you?
SAMUELS: I`m not treating her.
MARTINEZ: Well, if she was suicidal, it was somebody else`s responsibility to take care of it, right?
WILLMOTT: Objection. Can we ask the state not to yell at the witness?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of yelling has been going on in that courtroom. Meantime, new video just coming into our newsroom from the day Jodi was arrested. This is just-released interrogation footage. And we`re screening it as it`s coming in and turning it around and showing it to you.
At one point, Jodi has a very strange request and asks the detective if she can take a look at the bloody crime-scene photos of her dead ex- boyfriend, Travis Alexander. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: Is there any way I can see some of those photos?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you do with them if you could see them?
ARIAS: I`d just look at them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think it would help you?
ARIAS: I don`t know if it would help me or harm. I don`t know. Maybe. Maybe it would. I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is seeing those pictures going to help you?
ARIAS: I just want to try to piece things together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it that you`re trying to piece together?
ARIAS: Um, I don`t know. There`s also a bit of morbid curiosity, I think.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Does that sound like stalker-y behavior. She knows that she`s killed this person. But now she`s asking the detective, "I`d like to see the crime-scene photos. I just want to see what it looks like, what my handiwork looks like."
That is one of the creepiest -- I just got goose bumps. It`s one of the creepiest things. I`m seeing this stuff for the first time just as you are. It`s coming into our newsroom. Hours of this interrogation tape that has been just released.
Let`s go out to the phone lines, Cathy (ph), Canada. Your question or thought, Cathy (ph), Canada.
CALLER: Hi, Jane. Boy there`s a lot of passionate people regarding this trial. I`m passionate about it, too. But please don`t hate me, I don`t want death for this young lady.
Travis Alexander should not have died the way he did, and he was murdered. But I just -- there`s something about -- I`ve watched this from the very beginning. And he can`t defend himself. But there`s things about him that have come up that I just don`t feel -- I don`t feel that she`s the devil, and I don`t feel that he was the saint.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`ve made a very good point, Cathy (ph). And I want to quickly go to Stacey Honowitz. You`re a Florida prosecutor. How do you deal with a juror like this?
HONOWITZ: Well, listen, Jane, every time you pick a death-qualified jury, you ask if they can feel comfortable giving the death penalty. That doesn`t mean that necessarily they`re going to.
And the fact of the matter is all of this evidence is coming out about her and about him and this sex and he was more aggressive. That`s what the defense is hanging their hat on that, that if she`s convicted of murder one, that someone like the woman, the caller on the phone is going to say, "Listen, she murdered him, but I don`t think we should give her the death penalty."
So you can never -- you can never know what they`re going to do. You can only just qualify them and ask them, if it came down to having to give the death penalty, could you give it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We should talk about this on the other side. Because I wonder, if I`m a juror and I think, "Well, if I vote for first degree, that means that I`m opening the door to the death penalty. And if I really don`t want to see her killed, maybe I shouldn`t vote for first degree, and maybe I should take it back to second degree, because that way, it`s not even a consideration. I don`t want to be the only hold-out being pressured. That`s a nightmare. I`m not ready for it."
We`re going to debate that on the other side. Again, more footage coming in her never-before-seen interrogation tapes we`re playing for you as we get them in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: And again, he`s madder than ever. He keeps coming. Where`s the knife? I`ve got to protect myself. This is a fight for life and death. And now the knife. Here we go, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29. And by this time...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury indicted you.
JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: So it`s all public now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Public record.
ARIAS: Does everyone know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If someone goes on to check the public record, they can check. And they would come up with an indictment against you for murder.
ARIAS: That`s on the news tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t report anything to the news.
ARIAS: Has his family called today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they don`t even know that I`m talking to you.
ARIAS: They have been calling every day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day.
ARIAS: Are you going to tell them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I talk to them every day. How would you feel if your little brother or little sister was killed?
ARIAS: I have been wanting to call every day. I didn`t want to look obsessive, so I just tried to limit it to once a week.
This is a really trivial question and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: This is absolutely extraordinary -- new video that has just come into our news room. Hours of the police interrogation tape have been released that we have never seen before. It`s showing a bizarre, more bizarre behavior.
There she is, flipping her hair back and sitting on the floor minutes before she`s about to be arrested. She already maybe already has done the head stand, I don`t know the order. But she`s behaving bizarrely. She also went through a garbage can.
And we are also hearing from her own mouth, how shallow she is. Her primary concern as she is about to be arrested for the murder of somebody that she claims she loves very much is her makeup. She says I know this makes me sound shallow.
I mean it`s absolutely extraordinary and I`m going to go back to my expert panel and debate something that was just said by a caller. A caller just called in a second ago and said "Hey, you know what, she killed him, she murdered him, it was premeditated, but I don`t want her to get the death penalty because he`s no angel. She`s not the devil. She did it, but I don`t want her put to death."
Now, Dana Swickle, could that mean, if there`s somebody like that in the jury that they could push away her murder one? Because once they vote yes on murder one, it opens the door to considering the death penalty and who wants to be the only person in a room of 12 arguing against that?
DANA SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And that`s exactly what I was talking about before. It just takes one. And you know what, there`s nothing anyone can say about that. It doesn`t matter what the prosecutor says and honestly, it doesn`t matter what the defense council says.
If someone believes that way and they think yes she did it, she murdered him. He didn`t deserve to die that way. But I don`t think she`s the devil and I don`t think he`s a saint, they are probably not going to even go for first degree murder.
And you know what; that one person, that one person may do that, Jane. They may just sit there and say I am going to be the holdout.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon. I want to see you -- Jon.
(CROSSTALK)
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Since when -- since when does the victim of a brutal, brutal killing have to be perfect in all of their doings. How is Travis --
SWICKLE: That`s not what this is about.
LEIBERMAN: -- let me finish. Let me finish.
SWICKLE: But that`s not what it was ability.
LEIBERMAN: You said if a juror believes he was not a saint, therefore they may not vote to put first-degree murder. Since when A, do you have to be a saint? Two, you wait until closing. You wait until Mr. Martinez meticulously runs down every line, runs down the autopsy photos, runs down all of the crime scene photos, runs down all of her lies, all of the stab wounds, all of the wounds, no defensive wounds -- that will seal the deal for murder one in this case.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz -- you look like you`re about to explode. Go ahead.
LEIBERMAN: This idea that in order to get murder one --
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Everyone always says that but here`s the thing --
LEIBERMAN: -- somehow perfect is ridiculous. And that has been proven in this case that Travis did anything like that --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Stacey.
(CROSSTALK)
HONOWITZ: While I agree -- stop talking for one second. Stop. Stop talking.
LEIBERMAN: -- it is consensual sex among adults.
(CROSSTALK)
HONOWITZ: Stop. Ok. Here is the deal. I have to agree, as a prosecutor I agree with Jon and everything that is going on in this case. Logically, I have to agree though with something that Dana said. You can, as a prosecutor stand up there fight your heart out and go for murder one.
And she`s right, though. If there is one person on that jury that thinks that he was not perfect -- and that`s not saying that you have to be, we are not saying that at all. But one person might not believe that she deserves the death penalty and might want to be the hold out.
None of us, Jon, can ever predict our juries. I could never say to you when I walk into a courtroom, I have a locked case, I`m going to convict this person. You never know what a jury is going to do or what one juror is going to do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Every day --
HONOWITZ: That is something I have to agree with.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- that this continues on and this drags on increases the depth of the relationship between the jurors and Jodi Arias for better or for worse. They are becoming. I mean there are relationships that have lasted less time than this trial has.
So they have a relationship; whether it`s a love/hate relationship or a hate/hate relationship, I don`t know. But I would have to believe on a subconscious level, the more you get to know somebody, the harder it must is to give them a lethal injection. I don`t know.
I`m just saying that caller raises that issue.
You won`t believe what will happen tonight when the debate rages on, on "HLN AFTER DARK" when testimony ends. And it has ended for the day. Our conversation start -- anything can happen. Tonight at 10:00, we follow the evidence and test these bold accusations -- Jodi showing no remorse. Our HLN studio jury will deliver their verdict. Don`t miss "HLN AFTER DARK", that`s tonight at 10:00.
On the other side, I`m going to fire a gun to test the theory, Jodi`s claim, oh, it just went off, I didn`t mean to shoot him. It just went off. That`s on the other side. And we are going to debate it.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s your shoes. Why don`t you go ahead and put those on. Go ahead. Stop right there and just turn around. Put your hands behind your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course we are all over every moment of the Jodi Arias trial. We`re also keeping track of other important stories you care about.
Tonight, breaking news in the case of missing teacher, Terrilyn Monette: New Orleans police have just released surveillance video showing Terrilyn her driving away from the bar she was last seen by herself. She disappeared nearly two weeks ago. Her mother is frantic. We`ve had her frantic mom on our show. We want to solve this mystery and we`re following this case weeknights at 7:00 p.m. Eastern right here.
On the other side, I fire a gun to test whether, oh, the gun just went off, as Jodi claims.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Ok. I just have to say that that is a very intense feeling. The idea that that would happen and that you would say, well, it just went off and I didn`t know it hit Travis, I find that very counter intuitive. I would think if something like that happened you would immediately be inquisitive, even in the most dire circumstances as to whether or not that person was shot and where they were shot and what their condition was.
ARIAS: I didn`t even know that I shot him. It just went off and he was -- he lunged at me.
LATEIF DICKERSON, DIRECTOR, NEW JERSEY FIREARMS ACADEMY: You know, you are not necessarily going to see the bullet hole when you shoot someone. And again, if they are high, if they are angry, if they are tough, they may not react right away to being shot.
ARIAS: I didn`t know that -- if he had been shot. I didn`t see anything different.
DICKERSON: But it doesn`t get shot right away. If the brain doesn`t bleed a lot, often, you may have to shoot quite a few times to stop someone who`s coming at you with a .22 or.25 caliber firearm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, expert panel, that was the exact opposite of what I expected that master instructor, gun expert to say. I expected him to say there`s no way that a gun could just go off and you don`t know you shot it and you don`t know you hit somebody. He says that kind of thing happens all the time with a .25 caliber. It`s a very tiny bullet and people can sometimes be shot by it and not even realize that they are shot by it, which I found shocking.
Stacey Honowitz, you`ve covered so many of these murder cases. I was -- I was very surprised at his conclusion.
HONOWITZ: Well, look, I mean you have to talk about trigger pull and how much trigger pull or how much weight is necessary in order for that gun to go off. And so what his opinion is as to whether or not you don`t ever have to have trigger pull can just go by itself is one person`s opinion.
And just like you said, you know, everybody is going to come in and take the stand and tell you what is necessary. What force is necessary in order for that gun to go off? That`s his opinion as to what could happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s two issues, actually. There is this "I didn`t know I hit him". And that`s what we addressed. He said yes, it`s very possible. It happens often that people are shot and they don`t realize it and people who shoot people don`t realize that they shot people.
As far as the trigger pull issue, there is the whole question of whether it was cocked or uncocked, and the safety was on or off.
HONOWITZ: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we are going to be discussing that tomorrow on the show. Let`s go out to the phone lines. Nancy, Florida -- your question or thought -- Nancy, Florida.
NANCY, FLORIDA (via telephone): Yes, I`m here. Thank you for taking my call.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure.
NANCY: My comment is this. Mike did two re-enactments of how this whole thing happened. The first one, he was over 60 seconds, the second one he was under 60 seconds. The problem was, in both re-enactments, after Travis was shot Jodi said that she rolled out and went down the hallway.
When he was doing the re-enactment, he just reached out for the gun and started -- or reached out for the knife rather and started stabbing. If she ran down the hallway, she would have had to find that knife either in the bedroom or run back into the closet and find or go into the bathroom and find it. That would have taken well over those 60 seconds.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean the point is that, first of all, the prosecutor says this is an entirely phony story, this idea that, oh, I dropped his camera and oh, he got mad at me. I grabbed the gun from the closet and then he lunged at me and I shot him. And then I went into a fog.
The prosecutor says she went there, plotted to kill him and believes that she stabbed him 29 times and slit his throat and that he was dead when she delivered the coup de grace and blew his brains out, shot him right here and this bullet lands in his cheek. And that was almost a symbolic gesture because there was no hemorrhaging. So the medical examiner thinks that he was already dead.
So these are wildly different stories. More on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s your shoes. Why don`t you go ahead and put those on? Go ahead. Stop right there and just turn around. Put your hands behind your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for Pet of the Day. Send your pet pics to hlntv.com/Jane. And Boo -- you aren`t scary, you are adorable. Joey, you look like a party animal because you got the party lights on. And let`s have a birthday. Happy birthday to you, Sonny. Oh, isn`t that sweet. Cappucine and Serafine -- I hope I pronounced your names right, you are beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s your shoes. Why don`t you go ahead and put those on? Go ahead. Stop right there and just turn around. Put your hands behind your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The click, click, click of the hand cuffs going on -- you saw it here first. New video just in of Jodi Arias the moment she was arrested. Now right before Jodi was arrested she broke into song in the interrogation room and she was singing Dido`s "Here with Me".
Listen to this because I just got some shocking information about this song. Check this out.
(MUSIC)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That is the song she sings. And a friend of mine called me. No offense to Dido -- I love them, great group. But somebody called me and said don`t you know that that song has turned into a stalker anthem. And I said really, I didn`t know that. And she said yes, look at the lyrics. "I won`t go, I won`t sleep, I can`t breathe. Until you are resting here with me I won`t leave." That`s stalkery.
Selin Darkalstanian, what was the buzz about that song in the courtroom because my friend just called me and told me this. I wasn`t aware that this is some kind of unofficial stalkery anthem, no offense to Dido. I mean people can do what their great music, whatever they want I suppose.
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: The words of that song, Jane, are essentially what she has been writing in her diary. So if you have been following the trial and you`ve been -- they`ve shown so many pages of her diary, those lyrics more or less are what Jodi has been writing about Travis from day one when she met and she was head over heels in love with him.
Everything she wrote in that diary are the words of somebody who was a stalker.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And Stacey Honowitz, I will ask this because you are a Florida prosecutor. You have dealt with stalker cases.
HONOWITZ: Stalkers.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They have profiles. They have patterns. And the fact that she is singing that, to me, it says almost like she is basking in the moment. She wants to see the crime scene photos and she`s singing this song about "I won`t leave until you`re resting here with me." Creepy.
HONOWITZ: Yes. It`s creepy, number one. Number two, it does follow a stalker pattern if that`s what`s been written in her diary about how she feels about him. And certainly what I gather from all this she is a real attention seeker. She really loves the attention. She likes the focus on her. She probably knows there is a camera in there. And so yes, while stalkers do have certain behavior patterns I`m sure the prosecutor is going to try to bring out that that was the mission in this case. She loves him, she stalks him, she didn`t want anybody else to be with him. If she can`t have him nobody else would.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you know what; Jon they didn`t bring out the stalker theme. The prosecutor really didn`t hone that in. It didn`t hammer home because I think that the judge said a lot of the stalker behavior like the alleged slashing of the Travis` tires allegedly by Jodi Arias -- that that was too prejudicial. So the jury didn`t hear about that.
LEIBERMAN: Yes, a lot of it was inadmissible. But they still got some of it in and I think he will wrap it up in closing and wrap it up tight to show that she was indeed stalker-ish.
But Jane she is enjoining every single moment of this trial because she knows that this is the last time her name will ever be in lights. And I just wish we didn`t say her name so much. I wish we remember the victim more, Travis Alexander, because she is basking in this glory and it is sickening.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. More on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Ma`am were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat, were you crying then?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s take a look at this video of Jodi Arias confabbing with her defense team. And boy, are they talking and talking. It looks -- well, don`t -- I`m not going to go there.
Dana Swickle, criminal defense attorney, what the heck is there to talk about like this?
SWICKLE: You know, they could be talking about anything. They could be talking about testimony from earlier from the day. They could be talking about what they`re going to do tomorrow. They could actually just be talking to put on a show in front of the jury. That`s the big question. What are they talking about?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean just -- there`s something about it. It is a little creepy. I don`t know exactly how to characterize it but it seems very intimate if you know what I mean. I mean she does have a way of -- she`s a seductress, she mesmerizes people -- male, female. She has a way. All right.
Does she have a way with the jury? That`s the question.
Nancy next.
END
