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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Defense Redirects with Domestic Abuse Expert
Aired April 10, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, as we go back for more testimony, victim Travis Alexander`s sister sobs in court. Look at her there, crying as their dead brother and their parents, the whole family is dragged through the mud by this expert witness for the defense.
Battered woman expert Alyce LaViolette is in turn attacked by prosecutor Juan Martinez, accused of being biased and refusing to see that Jodi was stalking Travis. The defense expert admits Travis was afraid of Jodi but then argues people don`t keep having sex with stalkers they`re terrified of. Listen to some of their back and forth, head-to-head.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: Do you want the truth of this, Mr. Martinez?
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Yes or no.
LAVIOLETTE: Mr. Martinez?
MARTINEZ: Yes or no.
LAVIOLETTE: I discussed stalking.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
MARTINEZ: That person in that blue shirt over there moved to Mesa, Arizona, correct?
LAVIOLETTE: It is not a yes or no. I cannot give that answer.
MARTINEZ: Isn`t that stalking behavior?
I`m over here, quit looking to your left.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
MARTINEZ: He`s a bad guy. Right?
LAVIOLETTE: I don`t see the world in bad and good.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
MARTINEZ: But you are applying different standards, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Stalkers (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MARTINEZ: You were sloppy in your reporting to me.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
MARTINEZ: The abuser in this relationship was the defendant.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
LAVIOLETTE: I`m not an expert in child pornography.
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
LAVIOLETTE: I`m not an expert in sex addiction.
MARTINEZ: You are biased in this, aren`t you?
(SOUND EFFECT: BELL)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Travis`s good friend joins us tonight to tell why Jodi gave him the creeps.
Plus tonight, I get interrogated by two top detectives, and I learn firsthand, well, what their reaction was to behavior like this, which Jodi exhibited.
And in a minute, we`ll debate defense attorney Jennifer Willmott`s attempts to clean up the damage wrought by Juan Martinez, the prosecutor`s grueling cross-examination of domestic violence expert Alyce LaViolette.
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. Let`s head back into the courtroom right now.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The text message, again, the first part, and then finishing up with the text message would have been, had she -- if she sent him the whole one. Do you know what I mean?
LAVIOLETTE: Kind of.
WILLMOTT: OK. Well, in other words, the message that was sent to Mr. Alexander by mistake, it was broken up into two parts. Do you remember that?
LAVIOLETTE: Right.
WILLMOTT: OK. And the first part got sent to Mr. Alexander, but the second part was deleted before it was sent to Mr. Alexander.
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: And the entire text-message conversation, tirade is about Mr. Alexander sending or asking, ordering Miss Arias to send him what that second part of the text message was.
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: OK. So, at the end of this conversation, does she do that?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And she sends it to him, and it really is of inconsequence, right, that he, unfortunately happens to be an ex-boyfriend.
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And this is something that Mr. Alexander wanted her to send to him to check to see what this text message was about, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: Is that any type of jealous behavior?
LAVIOLETTE: Well, on the part of Mr. Alexander, I would say, if he wants - - if he needs to have information about who she`s seeing as a single woman, and they`re talking about, at this point, pulling apart from each other, then him wanting to track down what she writes, because this is not the only time he does it.
WILLMOTT: Not the only time he does what?
LAVIOLETTE: It`s not the only time he gets upset about the boyfriend. It`s not the only time that he`s told he`s jealous. He`s told he`s jealous by the Hughes. That they laugh at that part where he says he`s not.
He`s demonstrated jealous behavior with a man by the name of Abe. He`s upset that she`s seeing somebody. So, yes, there seems to be a pattern in regard to Miss Arias that there`s jealousy.
WILLMOTT: From Mr. Alexander?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: When you say -- when you say you see this pattern, are you relying on just this one text message conversation?
LAVIOLETTE: No, not at all.
WILLMOTT: And all the things that you just talked to me about?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And some of this -- the fact that Miss Arias felt compelled somehow to actually send him the second part of the text message, does that speak to the type of position she was in at this point in their relationship?
LAVIOLETTE: Well, she`s still connected enough that she wants to -- to please him. She wants to comply with what he wants, and so she does.
WILLMOTT: OK. And throughout this text message conversation, is Miss Arias apologizing?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, she is.
WILLMOTT: So what about this text message conversation, then, is important to you with regard to your assessment, taken in context, obviously, with everything else that you`ve seen?
LAVIOLETTE: Well, taken in context, what you see is someone -- and I`m speaking about Mr. Alexander here -- who gets upset because she`s dating someone else, who demands to see a text that she inadvertently sent in part to him and wants to see the rest of it. That he gets very angry and when he gets very angry, he goes over the top. That she has a pattern of apologizing to him. And that eventually, throughout these text messages, over time there -- there seems to be this cycle where they have this incident, they have an argument, Miss Arias apologizes, Mr. Alexander then apologizes, and they make up.
WILLMOTT: So, you talked a little bit about the fact that he gets angry. And there were questions this morning about anger. And you had talked about that people have a right to be angry, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: Is it important to you how people handle their anger?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, it is.
WILLMOTT: And when somebody goes into a long tirade, what does that mean for you with regard to their anger?
LAVIOLETTE: Well, first of all, they have a way of keeping that anger going. So, they have a way of somehow pulling in whatever that is that makes them feel righteous to keep going with their anger.
And secondly, it`s the nature of things that are said during the tirades, the name calling and the putdowns, and calling someone a sociopath and a liar and -- and a lot of other words that -- that make a difference.
Most people that I work with, they explode. They might do something, but they eventually -- they pull back, and they don`t keep this anger going. When somebody is able to keep it going and just verbalize it and keep going, it`s a rage. It`s not just anger. It tends to be rage.
WILLMOTT: OK.
LAVIOLETTE: Which is scarier, to me, than anger.
WILLMOTT: Rage is scary? Why is that?
LAVIOLETTE: Because it`s bigger than anger. It feels more out of control for most people. Rage -- rage feels like a more out-of-control emotion. Anger seems -- and people are intimidated by anger. I mean, people are intimidated by anger in the workplace. They`re intimidated by anger, you know, oftentimes even in their relationships if they don`t understand where it`s coming from.
But when someone has a pattern of being angry and continuing to be angry, it can be very intimidating to the person on the other side of it.
WILLMOTT: OK. And you were asked questions, do you remember, about whether or not it would be possible if she sent this text to him on purpose to somehow incite him. Do you remember that?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are here in the very heart of this case, the prosecution demanding of this witness to admit that Jodi was a stalker, that Travis Alexander -- they showed messages -- was complaining, "You`re the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life. You`re evil."
But this woman, this defense expert insisting that, oh, while Travis said that he also wanted to be with Jodi Arias and also was jealous, angry, controlling as she tried to date other people. Which is it?
Let`s debate it right now with our experts. Sidebar panel, 15 seconds each, starting with Stacey Honowitz for the prosecution.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, Jane, it just seems that she has such a double standard. You know, he could never -- she could never be charged with stalking, but he could be charged with abusing.
She will not concede to anything. It`s quite clear that the evidence does show that she was stalking him. And it`s just common sense. Anybody could tell you that it was stalking behavior. And it was on her own chart. So she looked more ridiculous.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita Sedaghatfar, for the defense.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, LAWYER: I think Alyce LaViolette stood toe-to-toe with Juan Martinez today and explained that someone who is stalked has a fear of their stalker. They don`t send them text messages saying, "I love you." They don`t invite them over to their home. They don`t continue to have sex with them in their own house, Jane.
(SOUND EFFECT: BUZZER)
SEDAGHATFAR: Who has sex with someone that is stalking them?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman?
JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Stacey stole my line. I tweeted earlier, "This is double-standard Alyce." And that`s exactly what she is. Not to mention the fact that she is basing 99 percent of her findings on proven lies, on Jodi`s lies. And on what is written in Jodi`s lying diatribe in her journal.
(SOUND EFFECT: BUZZER)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side of the break, more testimony. And we`re going to talk to a young man who was friends with the victim, Travis Alexander, and spoke to Jodi Arias on the very night that Travis was found dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: It does say that he is nothing more than a dildo, right, with a heartbeat?
LAVIOLETTE: He does say that.
MARTINEZ: In your assessment of things, because you are assessing things, that`s not a good thing, is it?
LAVIOLETTE: No, it`s not.
MARTINEZ: It does appear that the person who was the perpetrator, the abuser in this relationship was the defendant, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Not at all.
MARTINEZ: Not in your assessment, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Not in my assessment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Doesn`t that seem like stalking behavior to you, that they are broken up as of June or July of 2007, that she moves to Mesa, Arizona, then comes over to his house, unannounced at night, sees what she sees and then confronts him? That does not appear to you to be stalking behavior?
LAVIOLETTE: Not when I look at everything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And to set the record straight, right now, we are going to go to a good friend, former roommate of the victim, Travis Alexander. And he shares the last name, Sean Alexander. Good friend of Travis Alexander.
The debate today, Sean, was Jodi a stalker? Was Travis scared of her? Or was he a conflicted man who would continue to see her and go out with her, even though he was telling others that he was scared of her? You had a conversation with Travis Alexander before he died. What did he tell you about Jodi Arias?
SEAN ALEXANDER, FRIEND OF TRAVIS: Well, I had a conversation with Travis. The last time I talked to Travis was actually when he was dating Jodi. And you know, we met at a wedding reception.
And I was talking to Travis, hanging out over, drinking some punch. And she came over in the middle of the conversation and was sucking on his ear, kissing his neck, really, really inappropriate for, I think, in general. But especially inside of a church at a wedding reception. It was very awkward. I never met her before. She didn`t say hi; she didn`t introduce herself, just started molesting him, I guess, right in the middle of the church, which was really awkward for me.
And Travis joked around a little bit about saying -- my wife, by the way, is named Jodi (ph), and my last name is Alexander. So her name`s Jodi (ph) Alexander. And he joked around and said, "Hey, Sean, if we get married, you know, we`ll both be married to Jodi Alexander."
And I was like, "They might have the same name, but they wouldn`t have the same character." And I walked away. And that ended up being...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to stop, because you`re saying that she was sucking on his ear in a church?
ALEXANDER: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sucking on his ear?
ALEXANDER: I mean -- now, you have to keep in mind that -- well, to make that not sound quite as bad, the Mormon Church isn`t quite the same. It`s more like a rec kind of center than -- it is a church, but it`s a little different.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what?
ALEXANDER: So it`s not like we are standing up on a pupil [SIC] or something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s weird.
ALEXANDER: But still, it was really awkward. Inappropriate and awkward. And not fun.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did he ever tell you that he was concerned about this woman?
ALEXANDER: No, not me personally. I`ve had multiple conversations with lots of friends, you know, that expressed a lot of concern about her during that time and afterwards.
And afterwards, she was very strange. There was a lot of weird stuff, and very stalkerish stuff, I guess. But that`s not -- I never spoke to him. The last time I talked to him, actually, was at that church. So I -- that was the last thing I got to say to him before he ended up dying.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you what. We`re going to put you on hold for a second. Thank you for your insight. We`re going to go back to some testimony, and then we want to hear from you later about what kind of stalkerish behavior you noticed or found out about in the wake of the death of your dear friend. And my condolences to you, Sean. Let`s go back into court.
WILLMOTT: I`m showing you exhibit -- and I want, if you can review these messages, the first four.
LAVIOLETTE: All right.
WILLMOTT: OK, and these messages are from January 4, 2008, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And it`s just a couple of messages. Based on your review of these messages, is it evident that Mr. Alexander sent Miss Arias a text that was meant for someone else, if you`re looking at the second box and the third?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And does he refer to sending a text message meant for someone else, does he refer to it as, "I pulled a Jodi"?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, he does.
WILLMOTT: With a smiley face?
LAVIOLETTE: Right.
WILLMOTT: And then she responds laughing, right, basically laughing in text message language?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, she does.
WILLMOTT: So is this -- based on your review of these messages, is it something that seemed to have happened before, between the two of them, where they accidentally sent a text message meant for someone else to each other?
LAVIOLETTE: Well, at least on these two occasions.
WILLMOTT: OK. And on this particular occasion, there was -- nobody was upset about it, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Nobody was.
WILLMOTT: And in this -- in this instance, with regard to the May 10 exhibit or text message, the -- the implication or the idea that she would purposely try to somehow incite Mr. Alexander so that she could face his wrath and have him say things like -- say things to her about why don`t (AUDIO GAP) where she would be insightful like that, wanting to endure his wrath?
LAVIOLETTE: I haven`t seen that in any -- in anything I`ve read, any of the interviews, any of the journals. No, I have not seen that.
WILLMOTT: And throughout this text message, she`s apologizing, isn`t it -- isn`t she? Do you see where she`s saying that...
LAVIOLETTE: I`m trying to read it.
WILLMOTT: Sorry.
LAVIOLETTE: No, that`s all right.
WILLMOTT: I`ll switch it to.
Where she`s talking to him about "Let`s just adopt a `don`t ask, don`t tell` policy," right?
LAVIOLETTE: Right.
WILLMOTT: And do you see where she`s, in any way, trying to ramp up this argument?
LAVIOLETTE: No. I see that she`s trying to avoid an argument by neither one of them talking about their private lives. That she doesn`t, you know -- she doesn`t want that and she doesn`t think he wants it either.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did Jodi Arias lie to this expert defense witness during the 44 hours she talked to her?
By the way, check this out. There I am, re-enacting some of the weirder things that Jodi Arias did in the police interrogation room as I am interrogated by two top detectives. I`m going to tell you that felt like to lie and be caught in a lie.
And speaking of lying, boy, was Jodi Arias confronted about her lies when she was interrogated by Detective Flores. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE ESTEBAN FLORES, MESA, ARIZONA: Why is your palm print in blood?
ARIAS: How can that be my palm print?
FLORES: Because you were there. There`s no doubt in my mind that you were there. There`s no doubt in my mind that you did this, none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All that crazy, narcissistic behavior by this defendant behind bars. Nevertheless, this expert witness who is currently on the stand for the defense took at face value, it would seem, everything that Jodi Arias told her, even though this woman is a pathological liar. Why did she do that?
Her conclusion was that Jodi and Travis had a relationship that was a domestic violence relationship. But it was all based on what this woman, who`s doing a head stand in the interrogation room, told her.
Let`s go back into court and watch the defense attorney try to rehabilitate this defense expert, who was grilled by the prosecutor.
LAVIOLETTE: I see that she`s trying to avoid an argument by neither one of them talking about their private lives. That she doesn`t, you know, she doesn`t want that, and she doesn`t think he wants it either. And so she`s asking for this "don`t ask, don`t tell" policy to keep from having this escalation.
WILLMOTT: So with information in here about the fact -- and do you see a pattern of her doing that in other ranting text messages from Mr. Alexander, a pattern of her trying to deescalate, a pattern of her trying to apologize? Things like that?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes, I see that repeatedly.
WILLMOTT: OK. So given that information, does it in any way seem that she would purposefully send him an e-mail to incite him?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
WILLMOTT: I`m sorry. Send him a text message to incite him.
LAVIOLETTE: No. And frankly, even if someone did that, the response...
MARTINEZ: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
WILLMOTT: And if someone did that, what?
LAVIOLETTE: Even if someone was doing that, the reaction...
MARTINEZ: Objection. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: Overruled.
LAVIOLETTE: Even if someone was doing that, even if people were doing, you know, pushing each other`s buttons, the reaction to pushing each other`s buttons is what I look at, because most of us are the experts on pushing buttons with someone that we care about.
WILLMOTT: All right. Do you remember being asked questions about self- esteem?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And the fact that Jodi received information that she had a high I.Q.?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: The fact that somebody has a high I.Q. or talks about having a high I.Q., does that relate to them being -- having high self-esteem?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
WILLMOTT: And in speaking with -- the 44 hours that you spent talking with Miss Arias, did you get the sense that this high I.Q. somehow made her feel better about herself and gave her high self-esteem?
LAVIOLETTE: No, I did not get the impression at all that Miss Arias felt good about herself or proud of herself. No, I didn`t.
WILLMOTT: OK. Do you remember being asked questions about some of the different journal entries?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And you were talked to about the question -- about the journal entry from September 13, 2007, which is when they go to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is day nine of this defense expert witness on the stand. She`s arguing that Jodi was a victim of domestic abuse. The prosecutor is saying that Jodi was a stalker, and Jodi murdered Travis Alexander.
Let`s go to Selin Darkalstanian, who`s been in court for all of this, our senior booker. What`s the jury doing on day nine of this witness?
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: Jane, what`s interesting is three months into the trial, there have been moments where the jury looks exhausted, they`re tired. You can tell by the way they`re getting up. They`re sitting down during the breaks as they`re entering and exiting the courthouse.
But with Alyce LaViolette they were really into the direct testimony when she first started, because she has a way of story-telling and giving, like, anecdotes. So they were listening to her.
And then Juan Martinez came on, and he started with his whole Snow White bit. And they were laughing; they were showing reaction. And they don`t look exhausted with Alyce. And you know that it`s been three months. They haven`t called in sick one day. The trial was supposed to end this week. And now it`s -- we`re still in the middle of it. It`s continuing. None of them have said that they have to leave the trial. This jury is so committed to the trial, it`s pretty incredible.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quick question: are there questions for this witness from the jury?
DARKALSTANIAN: Yes, there are questions. There are questions. So there`s a little box in front of the jury box. And every time one of them writes a question, you can see them handing it to the other juror and putting it in the box. And there have been questions piling up. So we can be assured that after Jennifer Willmott finishes her redirect, there are multiple questions from the jury that we will listen to, to see what they think of Alyce. Because remember, these questions are very telling.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Revealing. More testimony on the other side and more debate. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you -- I have to ask you this, did you kill Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: Absolutely not.
I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
ARIAS: I don`t know who they were.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias changed her story, yet again. She acted in self-defense.
ARIAS: No jury is going to convict me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: "I don`t want your apology. I want you to understand what I think of you." That`s what it says, right?
ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DEFENSE WITNESS: Correct.
MARTINEZ: It also indicates that "I want you to understand how evil I think you are," correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: And then it ends it by saying, at least that box, "You are the worst thing that ever happened to me," correct?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
MARTINEZ: That is true in this case, isn`t it?
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ MITCHELL, HLN HOST: So that was really the finale of the prosecutor, Juan Martinez`s grilling of this defense witness, quoting the victim, Travis Alexander who said in a message to Jodi Arias just days before he was killed, "You`re evil. You`re the worst thing that ever happened to me."
And the prosecutor pointing out in the weeks leading up to Travis Alexander`s killing, she did odd things. She had long behaved like a stalker, poking her head in and seeing him with another woman, slashing his tires allegedly.
But the defense says "No, he kept going out with her, he kept sleeping with her. Nobody sleeps with a stalker." Let`s debate it. Who is winning this argument? Stacey Honowitz for the prosecution.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I think she`s such a stretch. She`s trying to take co-dependent behavior and make him into a physical abuser and there`s no -- absolutely no evidence of it. She reads behind the lines. She doesn`t consider anything else but the words of someone who`s flat out lied the entire time. So really I don`t know how you could take anything she says as being credible. She`s lost all credibility.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anahita Sedaghatfar for the defense.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I definitely don`t think Juan Martinez won any points here. He did bring up some good points in cross-examination but he`s way too aggressive, perpetually throughout his cross-examination. And that`s going to have -- that`s going to backfire on him and some of those jurors might not like that and they might not rule in his favor because of that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman?
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: It`s not going to backfire on Juan Martinez. Look, there are two things that Alyce said today that really stuck in my head. One is she said she doesn`t see things in black and white, she sees shades of gray. That`s absolutely not true. She has painted this case as black and white. The other thing she said is she`s always looking at the big picture. The problem is she`s only looking at the picture that Jodi has painted.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Make she should start looking at things in 50 shades of grey because what they had was, in my opinion, a kinky relationship, not necessarily an abusive relationship. There`s a big difference when the woman is a consenting adult participating of her own free will.
Let`s go back into court for this mop up operation by the defense attorney trying to rehab this witness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLMOTT: You were asked questions about if all the details of her day were included in this journal entry. Do you remember that?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And the implication being that somehow this journal entry would be incomplete then because she didn`t write all her details down, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: Have you ever seen a journal where someone details like every single detail whether they went to the bathroom once or twice?
LAVIOLETTE: No, I haven`t.
WILLMOTT: Would you expect to see that in someone`s journal?
LAVIOLETTE: No.
WILLMOTT: Does it mean for you that it`s then incomplete because she doesn`t include all the details?
LAVIOLETTE: No. It doesn`t mean it`s incomplete.
WILLMOTT: And in fact in talking with her you talked about the law of attraction with the prosecutor, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And that was some of the reason why. You kept saying in part --
LAVIOLETTE: Right.
WILLMOTT: -- of why she might not include all the details with regard to fights with Mr. Alexander or when he assaulted her, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: You kept saying in part, that it was in part the law of attraction. Is there another reason why she would not include all the details about Mr. Alexander? Negative bad things about him?
LAVIOLETTE: For one thing, she promised him she wouldn`t so she seemed to say less on the negative end. The other thing is, you know, depending on who is writing on a journal, they choose to remember what they remember. And so people write in their journals, it`s a private place to write. They write in their journals about what they want to remember and what they want to write. So, I don`t know. You know, people write a variety of things in journals. There`s no kind of formula for how to write in a journal.
WILLMOTT: If somebody was actually trying to write something down because they were making it up and let`s say for example that somebody wants to make up that their boyfriend is hitting them, wouldn`t they then want to write it in their journal to show proof that it happened? Wouldn`t that be helpful to them?
MARTINEZ: Objection --
SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING JUDGE: Approach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. As we go to a side bar, let`s bring in the victim`s dear friend, Shaun Alexander. Shaun, you actually spoke with Jodi, she was on some kind of speakerphone the night that Travis was found dead. And you have insight about what kind of an actress she is. What did she do? How did she behave and why do you think that illustrates her ability to lie and act?
Shaun Alexander: I mean obviously now looking back and knowing that she actually did it, she called -- when we found Travis` body -- when they found Travis` body, we all went up to the house and we were sitting outside. She was calling my friend Brent over and over and over and over and over and over.
Eventually, he answered even though the cops told him not to. He finally answered. We were sitting there listening and she was sobbing, hysterically. "Oh my god, what`s going on? What happened? Is Travis dead? They`re telling me he`s dead. Nobody is telling me anything." It was crazy.
And by the end of the conversation, me and Brent and my wife were both sitting there thinking, well, she didn`t do it, obviously. I mean there`s no way she did it. And the only thing that you take out of it looking back knowing that that was all false is that it`s amazing how good she is at lying. And you think, wow. You are just that convincing at lying. I mean you are great at it. I mean kudos to you for being great at lying, I guess but -- not exactly something I look forward to be good at.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s not a thing you want to be great at. Shaun, I want to thank you for your insight. It`s fascinating stuff.
This woman is an actress. She`s a pathological liar who is brilliant at just being believable when she`s lying through her teeth.
More testimony on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: It`s like -- it just -- it just moves and it goes so (EXPLETIVE DELETED). It felt so good. You went just where I needed it. I just I needed it bad. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED) me so right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More testimony in a moment. But first, after seeing so much video of Jodi`s fascinating police interrogation, I decided to find out for myself what it`s like to be grilled by cops. So I headed to the Fairfield, Connecticut Police Department to participate in a mock interrogation with two fantastic detectives -- unbelievable stuff. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know what this is all about.
LT. MICHAEL GAGNER, FAIRFIELD POLICE DEPT: Well, it`s about an incident that took place yesterday.
DET. KERRY DALLING, FAIRFIELD POLICE DEPT: I know for a fact that you were in Central Park yesterday.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know for a fact that I was in Central Park yesterday?
DALLING: I do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you know that?
DALLING: Well, we can talk about evidence that we have later. We have a person who`s reporting -- it`s a woman who`s reporting that she had a really negative encounter with you yesterday.
So what if we told you that the person -- we have a video here?
GAGNER: The "what if" technique is you throw a question out to your suspect, "What if I told you there`s a video that showed you at a location".
DALLING: So if we say, "Well what if I told you this," and there`s a possibility that this exists, they`re going to have to start replaying that whole thing in their head and restrategizing.
DALLING: Walk us through from a to z what happened and remember to be truthful.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She put the plastic in the non-recyclable bin.
GAGNER: She dropped the plastic bottle in the garbage (inaudible)
DALLING: We`re almost done. We`ll be right over.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey.
GAGNER: What if we said that we looked at the video and you have a bottle in your hand and you threw it at her and hit her in the head?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I lost it and just -- I don`t even remember doing it. But I think I just threw that bottle at her. One second and your life is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got to tell you because we staged something that someone might do, get mad at somebody and throw a bottle for putting it in the regular trash instead of the recycle bin, it felt very real to me. And then when they say "What if I told you that I have this evidence in here" and then "What if I told you we have a video tape. What if I told somebody" -- all of a sudden, you are like oh, they have the goods on me and you have to calculate now. They know what happened so how do I change my story?
Exactly what happened to Jodi Arias -- she was confronted with evidence and perhaps things that they didn`t have like what if I told you, oh, somebody saw you pulling up to the house on the night that Travis Alexander was killed? Maybe they do, maybe they don`t have that. But they say it and she`s got to recalculate.
Can we go to Beth Karas, correspondent, "In Session"? You have been in court all day but you know what I`m talking about -- this interrogation technique. They gave the Detective Flores super high marks. They said he was brilliant in his interrogation with Jodi Arias first of all because he remained calm despite her lies.
And they say one thing they don`t do anymore is they don`t -- they don`t do the rough techniques that we see in the movies. They remain very professional and they consider it an interview as opposed to a grilling -- Beth.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, that`s interesting because we used to, in the old days, use the bad cop and good cop sort of a tag team where one person is ingratiating him or herself to the person being interrogated; the other one is being tough.
But Detective Flores had a wonderful manner. He`s a very calm person, very methodical. And he held back a lot of the evidence he had on Jodi until the second day. He didn`t show her the photos from the camera - - those deleted photos that were restored -- until the second day. He simply told her, "Believe me, I have seen all of you. All of you. I have enough to put you there, Jodi. I know you did it." And he let her go on and tell him the second day the intruder story and then he told her what he had on her.
So, she was trying to dance and sort of fit her story, one could argue, to the evidence she knew they had. But once she learned all the goods even though it took a couple years of incarceration but she came up with the self-defense defense where she admitted doing it. I had to do it because he was abusing me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Absolutely. So we heard one technique that I outlined, the "what if" technique. What if I told you we had this evidence?
Tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on the show, I`m going to illustrate another technique that they use, which Detective Flores also used. It`s the "either/or" technique and I will explain that. See more of my intense police interview tomorrow.
We`re going to take a short break. We`re going to be back with more testimony in just a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLMOTT: Jodi was Travis` dirty little secret. It is just one minute -- just one minute of time between the camera falling until you see the picture of Travis with blood. One minute.
MARTINEZ: She slit his throat as a reward for being a good man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s go back into court where defense attorney, Jennifer Willmott, is trying to clean up this crucial defense witness who argues Travis abused Jodi. This is so crucial. Let`s listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLMOTT: All right. So when you were being asked questions about the journal entries and calling them incomplete because they we were -- they didn`t have every detail of the day, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: That was the prosecutor calling them incomplete, right?
LAVIOLETTE: Correct.
WILLMOTT: If Miss Arias was trying to make it up, if she was making up the fact that Mr. Alexander broke her finger or if she was making up the fact that he backhanded her across the face or if she was making up the fact that he kicked her or choked her, wouldn`t it be helpful for her to actually write those things down so that she can try and prove it later on if she was making it up? Wouldn`t that have been beneficial?
LAVIOLETTE: It might have been beneficial. Well, it would have been beneficial to have evidence. It`s beneficial to have evidence and most people don`t.
WILLMOTT: When you talk about most people, are you talking about situations with battered women?
LAVIOLETTE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: With battered women, why don`t they -- why isn`t there evidence? A lot of times?
LAVIOLETTE: Because they don`t report, they don`t want friends and family to know what`s going on. Even if they have supportive friends and family, the supportive friends and family may want them to do something they`re not ready to do. They may want them to leave or make a police report. I hear that a lot. You should call the police or you should leave and people aren`t ready to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Jodi doesn`t have any children to protect. A lot of her arguments would apply to let`s say a married woman with children who doesn`t feel she has the option of leaving.
A quick break, we`re going to be back with more on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Travis Alexander -- the victim`s sister sobbing in court today. You see her there crying as prosecutor Juan Martinez castigates this defense expert saying, "Hey, you`re putting the victim here on trial. This is an upside down world." Is it Stacey Honowitz?
HONOWITZ: Absolutely Jane. You can see from her testimony every single day she has what is known as tunnel vision. It doesn`t matter any outside influences, she`s just going to say she`s battered, she`s battered. I didn`t listen to this. I didn`t hear. I didn`t know about the stalking. It`s not stalking behavior.
No matter what it will always revert back to the fact that Jodi Arias is battered.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman.
LEIBERMAN: I think her testimony is actually going to end up hurting the defense more than helping her because of her complete unwillingness to criticize Jodi at all and willingness to revictimize Travis over and over.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. Thank you, fantastic panel.
Nancy Grace up next with more testimony.
END
