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Dr. Drew

Jodi`s Trial Live

Aired April 11, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Jodi Arias trial day 46: Bizarre sex.

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: I`m going to zip tie your arms around a tree, blindfold you and put a camera on you while I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you.

PINSKY: When is that normal and when is it not?

Carnal desire, coupling and crossing the line. Were Jodi and Travis Alexander doing anything bad?

Plus, we`ve got these new exclusive pictures of young Jodi. What went wrong?

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.

I promise, we will not let you miss any of the trial. We`re going to get back to it in just a minute.

But, first off, I want to introduce my co-host, Christi Paul, author of "Love Isn`t Supposed to Hurt."

Christi, thanks for joining us this week.

CHRISTI PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: Thank you.

PINSKY: You`re here in Los Angeles.

PAUL: Whoo-hoo! Yes.

PINSKY: Welcome, welcome.

All right. We`re going to get into some of Jodi`s tweets from jail. I`m going to read you some of those. They say they`re from her.

And as you saw, we have exclusive photos of Jodi when she was younger. We`re going to be asking the question what went wrong, and what about Jodi and Travis` sex life.

But right now, let`s hit the play button, go back to the trial, finish that up and then get right into our show.

WITNESS: I would certainly relook at things, because that would be important. But I also am really looking at the kind of rage and escalation that happens with Mr. Alexander in this very intimate relationship, and sort of the leading up to different things in relationships that are very, very much less intimate than the ones he`s had with, you know, than the ones with other women.

And I also look at the degree of abuse in his childhood. I look at the fact that he writes -- I don`t like whores.

(INAUDIBLE)

JUDGE: You may continue. You may continue.

WITNESS: OK.

So it`s not just looking at what Jodi says. It`s looking at what Mr. Alexander says. It`s looking at Mr. Alexander`s behavior.

I don`t think somebody has to be perfect to be a battered woman, or to be a victim of abuse. I think we cannot like some of the things about that person. I think we cannot like their attitude or the way they appear to us or the way we judge them.

I certainly don`t like every victim of abuse I`ve ever worked with, but it doesn`t mean they weren`t victims of abuse. And for me, that`s what I want to look at, not what I personally feel about somebody, but do I believe this really happened to them.

JUDGE: Any verbal discussion, often facial expressions and body language can be seen and tone or inflection can be heard. Additionally, in an interview, clarifying statements can be made and clarifying questions asked. Do you agree?

WITNESS: Can you repeat that? I`m sorry.

JUDGE: In a verbal discussion, often facial expressions and body language can be seen and tone or inflection can be heard. Additionally, in an interview, clarifying statements can be made and clarifying questions asked. Do you agree?

WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE: When assessing this case, to which did you give more weight? Written or verbal communications?

WITNESS: Well, I had more written -- I had more written information. So I gave more weight to the written information that I had. In terms of the physical interaction that would be with Jodi Arias, and that was in jail, sometimes behind a screen where you really couldn`t see -- I mean, you started looking cross-eyed after a while.

So for me I couldn`t even always see clearly, so I could go with inflection and tone and that sort of thing, but it was a very uncomfortable kind of environment to spend that many hours in. So I actually, because I had so much more written information, I relied more on the written information.

JUDGE: Do you feel that being unable to interview Travis Alexander gives Jodi Arias an unfair advantage in telling their shared story of abuse?

WITNESS: I wish I could have interviewed Travis Alexander. As I said, I got the information, and I think part of the information that was real important to me, at the beginning was from his close friends. And so I got information about him and the way people saw him. And then once again in his own words and his childhood, and then, in his own interactions with -- with Jodi Arias and with other women.

So I feel like I got a picture of Mr. Alexander.

JUDGE: Are you aware of phone conversations that were made, either before, during or after various series of texts, instant messages, e-mails that you reviewed?

WITNESS: I am aware that there were phone calls, and I -- I get confused about sometimes which is which. I know there were phone calls, and I`m not sure if those were recorded.

I know the phone sex tape was recorded. But beyond that, I -- I don`t know if there were recorded messages that I had or if they were all IMs, texts, and Gmails.

JUDGE: Did you ask Jodi if phone calls were ever part of those exchanges?

WITNESS: Yes. I think there were follow-up phone calls or there were phone calls that were made. But I don`t -- you know, I don`t have dates on those, that kind of thing.

JUDGE: Of the 18 forensic cases, how many were cases where a male was the victim of abuse and not a perpetrator?

WITNESS: Of the forensic cases that I`ve done, there was a case where there was --

(INAUDIBLE)

JUDGE: Can you give us numbers?

WITNESS: At least two, but I`m not -- there were at least two. And there was one where the father killed his son-in-law. And the father who did the killing was also a victim.

(CROSSTALK)

JUDGE: Sustained.

You testified that when conducting a couple assessment, family of origin of both parties is pursued.

WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE: You pursued family of origin for Travis in assessing him as a perpetrator. However, why did you not assess Jodi`s family of origin, considering Jodi as a possible perpetrator of abuse rather than as a victim?

WITNESS: I did. I did assess Jodi`s family for, for abuse. Her level of abuse was lower, much lower than Mr. Alexander`s, but oftentimes what we see is that women and men do same sex role modeling. And so, oftentimes, the women wind up being victims as opposed to perpetrators, but I didn`t rule that out. And I thought Jodi had a fairly dysfunctional family. I thought that on the scale of things that Mr. Alexander`s family was far more violent and in far more reaching ways and different kinds of abuse.

JUDGE: All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take the evening recess at this time. Please be back tomorrow morning. We will start at 9:30.

PINSKY: And we are just getting started. We`ve got next up, Jodi tweeting from jail. We`re going to tell you exactly what she is saying.

And later, we have exclusive photos of Jodi when she was younger. There he is with Mr. Juarez, I believe. What do they tell us?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host is HLN anchor Christie Paul.

And joining she and I is forensic Cheryl Arutt, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt.

Guys, thank you very much for joining us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey.

PINSKY: Hey.

Jodi`s domestic violence lady as we like to call it her answered jury questions are really interesting. But the big question is, which part of her testimony will actually stay with the jury. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WITNESS: I made some verbal mistakes in my interview with you. And I am more than willing to say that.

JUAN MARTINEZ, ATTORNEY: You were not paying attention to detail in this case, because you were already in the defendant`s camp.

WITNESS: The big picture mattered to he, Mr. Martinez, the big picture. All of the evidence.

MARTINEZ: Are you saying that Mr. Alexander, when he was speaking with the defendant, was in the same relationship as were you with the defendant when you were speaking to her?

WITNESS: If she were in my group, I would ask you to take a time- out, Mr. Martinez.

MARTINEZ: Judge, would you please admonish the witness?

You spoke to the defendant about the events involving June 4th, 2008 and her killing of Mr. Alex and der, correct?

WITNESS: Correct.

MARTINEZ: When she pulled the trigger, she indicated to you that they both were in the closet, correct?

WITNESS: I believe so.

MARTINEZ: Would you liable to listen to your statement to refresh your recollection?

WITNESS: Sure.

MARTINEZ: OK.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MARTINEZ: Where does she say Mr. Alexander is when she pulls the trigger?

WITNESS: That they`re both in the closet.

MARTINEZ: They`re both in the closet, all right.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I grabbed the gun, I ran out of the closet. He was chasing me. I turned around. We were in the middle of the bathroom. I pointed it at him with both of my hands.

JENNIFER WILMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Reviewing your nights, does it state anywhere in there that Ms. Arias told you that she shot him in the closet?

WITNESS: No.

WILMOTT: So that`s not something that Ms. Arias told you.

WITNESS: No, it isn`t.

WILMOTT: In May of 2008, did he talk in his own journals about Jodi moving away?

WITNESS: Yes, he did. That they both needed discipline, and it would be good for him and for her if she moved.

WILMOTT: Did you get information that Mr. Alexander liked Jodi to wear pigtails?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And in fact, on June 4th, do we have a picture of her, of course nude, but from the top up, does she have pigtails?

WITNESS: Yes, she does.

INVESTIGATOR: There`s pictures of you laying on the bed in pigtails.

ARIAS: Pigtails?

INVESTIGATOR: Yes.

WILMOTT: And some of the women that have talked to you about how their husband is somebody who`s maybe in the politics or something in a high, well-respected area.

WITNESS: Well over half, probably two-thirds where other people are not aware of what`s going on.

WILMOTT: Well over two-thirds, you said?

WITNESS: I said anywhere from a half to two-thirds. I suspect about two-thirds, but I`ve never like kept track.

WILMOTT: Right. OK.

The lies that she told, when did those start happening?

WITNESS: After Mr. Alexander was killed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Thanks for the grammar correction.

"In Session" correspondent Beth Karas is covering the trial.

Beth, what is the latest?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, the questions are not finished, Drew. The jurors continue to submit questions today even as their previous questions are being answered.

But there was a healthy skepticism among the jurors who submitted the questions. People were wondering what it would have been liked if number five, the removed juror, would have been asking questions, because she was pretty prolific in asking a lot of questions of the prior witnesses.

In any event, they seemed to take issue with the fact that this is very one-sided. She only talked to Jodi. There was no Travis to talk to. And she was limited in what she was given for information.

So, she made her assessment not based on you will a the information that`s out there about Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander.

PINSKY: And some of the jury questions were sort of snarky, too, Christi. They were like, why do you keep looking over at Jodi and shaking, looking so kindly for her? Why do you do that?

PAUL: You know, if you look on Twitter and Facebook, every time I read any posts that come on, they`re always talking -- if they mention LaViolette, they also mention bias. People can`t get away from that. And I`m wondering, as you pointed, if the jury is recognizing that I have same thing.

PINSKY: These questions today really suggest that, don`t you agree, Beth?

KARAS: Oh, absolutely, you know.

You know, this doesn`t necessarily represent all 17 jurors, right? It`s only those submitting questions, and not all of them do submit questions. But certainly those who are asking questions of her do seem to think that there may be a little bias there. At least she wasn`t given all of the information. And she took Jodi at her word.

PINSKY: Right, which I think may -- although she talked today that she was assessing Jodi to be not lying. She was aware that she could be lying. She just came down on the side of the truth, which I`m not sure like I said, taking her at her word is the best advice with Jodi.

Now, thank you, Beth.

HLN has learned that Jodi`s friend Donovan Bering is managing a Twitter account for Jodi.

Christi, you spent some time on that account, I know. You say it`s verified? It`s got about a thousand followers?

PAUL: Well, no, actually about 5,400 followers. And she`s following 16 people, including Donald Trump, Kathy Griffin, Ellen DeGeneres, Christiane Amanpour, so a wide array of people.

PINSKY: I`ve got to get Kathy in here to talk about that.

I`m going to read you some of the tweets that have been sent on Jodi`s behalf from six days ago. "Anger management problems any one?" From March 26, those afflicted with little man`s syndrome taint society`s perception of generally a good man who happened to vertically challenged."

This is really --

PAUL: Ooh.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s bad.

PAUL: From March 16th, no, I do not have a girlfriend. After everything I`ve been through, it`s amazing I`m not gay. That`s what Jodi is telling us from prison through her friend.

From March 22nd, for crying out lout, it`s Imitrex, you know, for migraine.

Remember this video? It`s from a few days earlier where she popped a little pill there, and Imitrex indeed is an anti-migraine medication. And indeed there it is. And indeed migraine has been brought up as a reason the court has been prematurely sort of interrupted.

Mark Eiglarsh, what do you make of all this?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, I make more of what she did to Travis than what she`s writing here. I`m not giving it any power.

She killed someone. She murdered someone. So this to me is a pimple on the butt of what she`s dealing with.

I do want to go back to LaViolette, just for one moment, to give everybody some perspective, because now, what`s the jurors thinking and how they`re going to handle this?

Here`s big picture which I expect Juan to argue in closing arguments. That is that what she believes isn`t necessarily accurate. Believability and accuracy are two different things. She could believe all she wants that Travis is an abuser. It doesn`t mean it`s accurate.

And the second thing is, there`s nothing in the jury instructions that say, unless somebody was a perfect, non-violent angel, assuming you erroneously believe that, that somehow it`s OK for them to be executed.

PINSKY: Right.

EIGLARSH: But that`s a separate issue. So this case does not hinge upon what LaViolette says.

PINSKY: Jenney, did you see LaViolette later in the day? I thought she was doing a pretty good job later in the day. And it`s going to irritate a lot of viewers, I`m sure. But what are your thoughts?

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Well, with LaViolette, listen, as I`ve said all along, I think her bias is clear. That`s number one.

Number two, when she kept talking about Travis, she kept talking about him like she`d had conversations with him. As I was listening, I kept saying, really? Really?

And she started talking about things like Travis not being truthful about his virginity.

PINSKY: Yes.

HUTT: How many people are untruthful about their virginity, Dr. Drew? I don`t know that that`s ultra deceptive behavior when that`s commonplace. It`s like what everybody does.

PINSKY: I completely agree with you. We have one person who survives and is able to make her case and another who is sort of spuriously, bits and pieces are coming through and she`s calling him a liar.

Cheryl, take this home for us.

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I think we can`t get away from the fact that at heart, Alyce LaViolette is a victim`s advocate.

PINSKY: Right.

ARUTT: She`s not really a forensic psychologist. She`s there to advocate for victims.

PINSKY: Wow.

ARUTT: And I think that`s really coming through in the way she approached the case.

PINSKY: Cheryl, that is a vivid, very important point.

You are a forensic psychologist.

ARUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: How would you have approached this differently?

ARUTT: Well, the thing is we have an ethical responsibility to look at the case impartially, no matter which side we`re on. We have to even, we put in writing that there`s no guarantee of outcome.

PINSKY: An advocate is accustomed -- listen, I`m sort of an advocate, I`m accustomed to be siding with somebody who`s been victimized. I`m sympathetic that she`s that way, but I`m also used to dealing with people that lie all the time. And I know not to believe everything or much that comes out of a mouth like Jodi`s.

Thank you, guys.

Jodi, Travis and kinky sex, that is next. The "Behavior Bureau" is going to weigh in. And later, we have explosive photos of a younger Jodi with there -- Superman. She`s got a Superman shirt on. More of that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDGE: If you didn`t want to be tied up to a tree, why would you go up and look for a place where he could do that?

ARIAS: We were looking for a place out in the woods, nature, to somehow carry out this little red riding hood fantasy.

ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.

ARIAS: What`s that?

ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by he way.

ARIAS: Oh, my gosh. That is so debasing. I like it.

ALEXANDER: I`m going to zip tie your arms around a tree, blindfold you and put a camera on a timer while I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you. It takes creativity to tops ourselves.

ARIAS: I know it does. We`ve gotten way creative in the past.

ALEXANDER: You cannot say that I don`t work that booty.

ARIAS: Oh, never mind, you do know how to work the booty.

ALEXANDER: For example, I`m not the freaking tossed salad type to be honest. But I would do it -- I love doing it with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Wow. That was stuff even I have not heard before.

It`s time to talk about sex about the "Behavior Bureau".

Back my co-host, HLN anchor Christie Paul.

And we`ve got to go to the urban dictionary to look up the tossed salad thing. Not for TV, trust me.

PAUL: Apparently. Yes.

PINSKY: Joining us, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox," Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, and attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt.

Cheryl, I`m going to talk with you about the little red riding hood fantasy. First of all, that sounds a little bit aggressive. But I`m wondering, Christi and I were talking off-the-air here about how there were two Travises.

And let me go for a little second here and say this. That many times when kids are abused, technically if they`re sexually abused, they`re sort of cut off a part of themselves, they have a bad self that they do bad things with bad people, and they have a good self when they don`t show any of that to anybody else. Do you agree with that this maybe what`s going on here with Travis?

ARUTT: It may be, Dr. Drew, what`s going on with Travis. He got to act out all of the kind of edgy kind of freaky stuff that he wanted to do with Jodi who could look like somebody who participated in the church and did all that stuff. But at the same time, she was someone that he could play with and bring out this other part of himself.

You know, if the two of them were adults and consenting and no murder or anything happened, I don`t think we`d be talking about any of this.

PINSKY: Right. That`s interesting. It`s not that it`s so bizarre, maybe unsavory. We may not like that. We have to look it up in the urban dictionary to find out what the hell they`re talking about. But it`s not necessarily pathological.

Wendy, do you agree with that? And do you agree with my theory of disavowed aspects of self being acted out by Travis?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with both things. But there`s something else I want to point out about this and other phone sex conversations that I`ve heard between them. You know, I`m grown up woman. I`ve had some much better phone sex in my life.

Where is the affect? Where is the actual feeling? I don`t feel like they`re actually being aroused. I feel like they`ve disassociated in this phone call and they`re really sort of like children just laying out a plot. She`s kind of giggling. He doesn`t sound aroused. He doesn`t sound aroused while they`re talking.

So, where is the affect in their voice, and why have they disassociated in this phone call? It`s very strange to me.

PINSKY: Well, first of all, Wendy, I`m sort of overwhelmed by your comment. Let me start with that. And then I think you`re on to something, though. And, again, people that disavow feelings and parts of themselves do disassociate and I think you`re picking up on that.

Jenny, all the clinicians are sitting here and talking to me. Help us, you have a relationship show on Sirius.

HUTT: OK.

PINSKY: Help us take this into lay language.

HUTT: This is what I think. You keep saying disavowed behavior, blah-blah blah. I think we don`t know what goes on most of the time behind closed doors with people. People get into some freaky kinds of sex. And I could explain tossed salad.

PINSKY: Jenny, thank you for that. But I just, I`m trying to deal with what Wendy said, still. I`m going to take --

(CROSSTALK)

HUTT: Wait, wait. Wendy is right. But Wendy is right. There is this weird sort of not hot thing in that phone sex. It`s not hot.

PINSKY: Yes.

HUTT: And I certainly, again, don`t feel like Jodi was being abused by Travis. Jodi was choosing to do this. Frankly, if somebody said to me I`m going to put this there and I wasn`t interested in that there, that wouldn`t be there.

PINSKY: Again, I`m following. I`m following everybody.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: And so your point is that she is consenting. She is a part of this.

HUTT: Yes.

PINSKY: I say, I say because this guy was so badly abused as a kid he is prone to getting sucked into something like this. And once he`s in, because that part of himself, he tonight even really understand is there, she`s gotten that out. And it`s just operates, and he can`t get out of there.

HUTT: Right.

WALSH: So you think that she, is she the one that you are saying -- do you think she`s the one that`s perpetuating this whole thing?

PINSKY: I think it`s a perfect storm. I think the two of them created this sexual relationship but that she is the one using it for power and control. And he`s the one that can`t get out because he`s so addicted to it.

WALSH: It`s Wendy. I have to say something. You know.

PINSKY: I don`t want to hear about your personal life.

WALSH: No.

PINSKY: Maybe, just go ahead.

WALSH: Let me ask you a question. In a traditional s and m relationship, who has the power, the top or the bottom?

PINSKY: In a traditional relationship?

HUTT: Man, let me just say, I am not on raises America, people.

WALSH: The bottom, the bottom is being served. The bottom is the one who`s tied up who is unable to participate and help, so it`s the bottom who`s be being served. And that`s the piece that people don`t get. They think the person that`s the dominant person but they`re not. The bottom person is the person in control.

You`re making a very important point which though she seemed to be the passive participant, she actually was very -- and this is my point. She`s actually very active and using sex for power and control, right?

WALSH: Exactly. Well, you can hear her. She says that`s debasing, ooh I like it.

PINSKY: Let`s get a call in from one of our viewers. Pat in texas. Go right ahead please.

CALLER: Hello, I`m 60 years old. And I don`t think the sexual conversations were that unusual. The fact that they were in the privacy of their own home, plus I think some of it was just talk.

It was pretty active talk. Let`s be fair. But you`re saying as a woman, you know 60 years of age, we might speculate you would be shocked to hear this kind of conversation, but you`re saying it`s extreme. Listen, I want to defend pat. It`s extreme, but you`re not saying, same thing we`re saying it`s two people push being the envelope. Cheryl, you`re smiling. I know you`ve got something up your sleeve.

PINSKY: I was just thinking this gives a whole new meaning to raising America.

Oh.

I didn`t say it.

That would be a whole different show.

Oh, boy.

PINSKY: Let us take a brief break here. I think although we`ve had fun with this, some very important points have been made. People get upset when we laugh on this show. No disrespect to Travis, no disrespect to the family. But after 48 days now we need a little bit of levity to be able to discuss this further. I think there`s important points that have been made here. A, this is not pathological behavior, it`s pushing the envelope but nothing bad happened here. Nobody gets hurt at this stage of the game.

And No. 2, there is a component to this relationship where Travis gets dragged into it. There`s a part of himself which is walled off early in childhood. He`s beaten by his mom, abandoned by his father. The part of him that`s bad is hooked up to a bad person. It`s a compulsion and Jodi used that for power and control. Show of hands, everybody agree with me?

WALSH: I agree with you.

PINSKY: Christie, not so much?

PAUL: No. I believe there were two Travises. No doubt about it.

PINSKY: Next up. Jodi`s jealousy, how did it turn deadly. The behavior bureau can crack that as well. And my jury has some good questions for the witness who`s on Jodi`s side. You`ll hear them after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: The jealousy issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

WITNESS: But I wasn`t, I wouldn`t even say it was jealous. I mean, there may have been some jealousy there, but.

Then what was it? What caused this?

WITNESS: I think if, you know, if any one maybe Travis was jealous, but.

There`s a girl that`s been stalking him. Okay. So last weekend his stalker, he told her he never wanted to see her again. Several times she`s slashed tires.

Does anyone know Jodi`s last name?

WITNESS; She called me hysterically when she decided to move.

Sneak into his house through the doggy door and sleep on his couch at night without him knowing.

You are absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is the word that they use. That`s the word I hear from everybody. Fatal attraction. I don`t know how many times I`ve heard that. Look at Jodi. Jodi had to have done this, or she had someone to do it for her. There`s not one person that says anything else.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Pretty compelling. Back with my co-host, HLN anchor, Christi Paul. Show of hands from my behavior bureau. Ladies, have you ever done a drive by to check on a boyfriend or somebody you`re interested in or somebody, come on. There`s one.

WALSH: I might have in college.

PAUL: Of course in college, when we were young.

PINSKY: It`s sort of an adolescent behavior. Cheryl, I`m stunned that you`ve never done this.

HUTT: Really? really?

PINSKY: So we`re all stalkers, is that it?

WALSH: Can I ask Cheryl a question? Have you shown up at a bar or a club where you knew the guy might be, but he didn`t know were you going to show up and you made it like you just ran into him.

HUTT: Yes. I haven`t driven by, but I have put myself in situations where I was hoping to see somebody.

WALSH: That is stalk being behavior.

HUTT: We`re trackers.

WALSH: But the fact is that people now do that through social media. They do it in all kinds of ways. And it`s a primitive impulse, and I think everything can kind of relate to, but a lot of people have done it. It`s when, it`s when relationships are too intense.

When they`re too intense, when they confuse intensity for love and the thing fractures and people don`t know how to deal with the comings and goings of intimate contact. That`s why people stalk. That`s why it`s adolescent.

HUTT: I wouldn`t call it stalking. I really like the idea of calling it tracking. Because the truth is once you`ve had that attachment, it doesn`t just die right away. There is a grieving period. There`s a mourning period. And so for us healthy people on your behavior bureau, to be able to look on facebook or twitter for a few days or at a vulnerable moment is a whole lot different than somebody crawling in a doggy door and sleeping on one somebody`s sofa.

A little bit cuckoo for coco puffs? and sharing that with your friends and making sure they know when you`re driving by, then it`s not as sort of weird. Because.

It`s a hey, am I be being crazy and you bring in?

Yes. Trying to get that support.

As opposed to friends calling your parents and saying oh, my god, Jenny`s tracking has gone off track.

I just think we should think about that this is the first time i`ve ever heard stalking talked about in terms of the victim`s fear reaction. And that`s --

PINSKY: You know why? I found out why. Because apparently in the law for it to be a legal issue, the victim has to be afraid. I agree with you from a clinical standpoint the fear comes way late. You`re not aware somebody`s stalking you until way late in the game, and then you think oh, my god, now I`m afraid. Then you call the cops. That`s way down the line.

WALSH: Look at gender. For a girl to be afraid of a guy who`s bigger and stronger that`s one thing. But a guy who wants to keep hooking up with somebody, the thing is for it to reach a level where he was actually afraid of her.

Yes.

WALSH: It would have to override the turnon, the libido.

PINSKY: In this case I agree.

WALSH: That`s the whole crazy girl, crazy sex mentality.

PINSKY: However, he might be afraid that she weighs going to go public or tell his friends what she knew about what they`d been doing. There could be that fear too. Got to break, guys. Next up, I have never before seen jodi well before she became a killer. There`s some of them. Young Jodi after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You and Mr. Juarez engaged in anal intercourse, right?

ARIAS: On two occasions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know somebody by the name of Richard samuels?

ARIAS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You told him that the only person you`ve ever had anal intercourse with was Travis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host HLN co-host Christi Paul. We have exclusive new videos, pictures, rather, of Jodi Arias with her former boyfriend, Bobby Juarez.

Dr. Drew you keep showing Jodi in a Superman shirt, not a huge leap to Spiderman. Jodi had at least five relationships in her life. And we want to look at the patterns that lead to how she could have become a killer.

Joining us on the phone is Shanna Hogan. Shanna, we`re looking at these pictures. Tell us what you know about the pictures, and about what you`ve heard from other guys that Jodi has dated.

CALLER: Yes, thanks, Dr. Drew. She had a very tumultuous relationship with Bobby Juarez. It was on again, off again. And what her past boyfriends describe is that when she gets fixated on something, when she was with these guys that that was like her exclusive life. That she didn`t have a lot of friends. And that would just become her entire world. She would make their world her world. And that`s what she did with bobby.

PINSKY: Was there other evidence by any of these other guys of the stalking, obsessing, you know, all the stuff we`re seeing with travis? did she do that before? for instance snooping? did she do a lot of snooping? any of that stuff? lying?

CALLER: Yes. Always she tended to snoop. And then she would come up with these elaborate excuses how she found out this information or people would just approach her, strangers, and tell her that your boyfriend`s cheating on you but she discovered it by snooping.

So it`s sort of a paranoia. Overintensity, overconnectiveness.

And I wanted to ask you. You talk about how maybe Travis was abused. What about her? Cause I wonder if she was abused prior to her relationship with Travis. And then he, you know, he was not kind to her.

That`s the thing she`s making.

Before, though. And all her rage when she killed him, she wasn`t just killing him, she was killing abusers past, maybe?

Maybe it was the shattering of losing those idealized relationships. Hard to know what went on in her head. You have a question for mark.

I do. What we have here is unprecedented when we talk about jodi tweeting out. Here`s a defendant in the middle of her trial tweeting out about the prosecutor who`s trying to get her onto death row. Have you ever seen anything like that? and what do you that I could do to this trial?

Well, first of all, twitter is fairly new. You won`t find any supreme court rulings, involving defendants doing that from their jail cell. I tell my clients, you`re nuts, don`t talk to anyone. But jodi`s running the show here. But she has the first amendment right to be an idiot if she wants to and talk and say all these things. And it can adversely affect her at some point.

Jenny, you`re shaking your head vigorously.

What Mark just said was exactly right. She`s an idiot. Why would she do this? if this is really in fact her tweets, why would she tweet these things.

She killed Travis. How much more bad can it being for her. Obviously there`s something wrong with her.

PINSKY: Enough said. Back my jurors after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Time now for Drew`s jurors. I`m with my co-host Christi Paul and joining us from Arizona, Stacy Farrington and Katie Wick. The jury`s questions were interesting and what Laviolette did with them was interesting as well. But is there anything you would like to ask Alyce Laviolette?

Actually, I would actually like to ask her, one of the questions that the jurors asked today about why are you smiling at Jodi, because I saw her smile at Jodi with my own eyes today after the afternoon break. I sat down, and Jodi was being taken in, into the courtroom. Laviolette was at the defense table. And I saw them give each other this big smile. And two minutes later she`s testifying that she try does avoid making contact with jodi, and I saw it with my own two eyes.

Interesting. Stacy, how about you?

You know, what I think I would ask her is do you have any personal experience with domestic violence that is making you biased towards jodi. You know, I think she keeps saying she believes her lies. So I wonder if maybe she has had some history that`s making that bias come out a lot in this case.

And dr. Drew, real fast.

Go ahead.

I just wanted to mention, I just saw the photo of jodi with the braids. And remember, that the defense said that travis was the one who initiated this whole idea of the braids. I would like to ask her if this photo would change her opinion on that because she does have braids.

Have you ever driven by somebody`s house.

Am I a lone stalker here?

We have something very interesting for you after the break. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Time for the last call. We have a good one for you tonight. First it was Jodi. Then Mike Galanos. Then Jane Mitchell, not to be outdone, my staff got into the action. There I am and the entire staff wanted to be Jodi advocates and get -- by the way, it was not what I would call relaxing, Christi.

PAUL: It wasn`t.

PINSKY: But my jurors are still standing by. We need you to pick out who best represented Jodi. I think Jane did a pretty good job, myself.

Dr. Drew, you. You win thumbs up.

PINSKY: Smart women.

Remember, I keep talking about how women can manipulate and stuff.

Oh.

This is how that works.

Is it working?

It`s working. In spite of myself, I can`t help it. But let me ask, I`ve got a few seconds for you answer the question Christi asked before the break. I think most people can relate to having done stalking kinds of behavior when they were younger.

Like in college, did you drive by somebody`s house to see if they were there.

Now they look online.

Oh, oh.

Or call and hang up, the days before caller id.

Security. Security get Stacy. She`s going to a whole another level with this.

PINSKY: I`ll see you there. And it starts right now.

A bold accusation.

END