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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Rebuttal Begins in Jodi Arias Trial
Aired April 16, 2013 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, the rebuttal begins. Prosecutor Juan Martinez launches his full-force rebuttal attack to destroy Jodi Arias` defense by calling up his own shrink to annihilate the defense experts and shatter the claim that Jodi is a battered woman. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CIP)
JANEEN DEMARTE, PSYCHOLOGIST: There is a lot of personality indicators, signs of psychopathology. People with this personality tend to experience a lot of aggressiveness, hostility, defensiveness. These individuals do a relatively good job on a day-to-day basis of not displaying it to people.
Her overall I.Q. is 119. But have these violent outbursts that are described as seething. These individuals tend to externalize blame. They say, "It`s not my fault. I act this way because someone did something to me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The prosecution`s clinical psychologist, Janeen DeMarte, says she does not suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder, as her defense experts claimed.
But this prosecution expert has concluded that Jodi does suffer from borderline personality disorder. That`s serious stuff. She points to Jodi`s journal and bizarre behavior during TV interviews as proof.
Will the jury believe it? Could it make them feel sorry for her?
By the way, this very same prosecution witness on the stand, whose house was broken into and her laptop stolen just a few months ago. Interesting, huh?
This case has become a national obsession with so many weighing in online. Now, a Jodi Arias spoof. Has she got the bangs down or what? It`s gone viral. We`re going to show you that parody in just a bit.
But for now, let`s go into the court for more testimony from prosecutor Juan Martinez`s expert shrink, who is disputing Jodi`s claim that she went into a fog and cannot remember stabbing Travis Alexander 29 times.
JUDGE SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING OVER TRIAL: Please be seated. The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant and all counsel.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Well, we`ve got to put it...
MARTINEZ: With regard to the issue of fight or flight, I want to talk about, as it applies to memory only, whether or not you saw any indications of this memory loss associated with fight or flight after the killing. And I`m just talking about after the killing and the memory issues, whether or not you believe that is consistent with or whether or not you believe that it was inconsistent with the memory loss that one sees in a felony, not a felony, but a fight-or-flight situation.
DEMARTE: As I highlighted earlier, when someone is in the middle of a fight-or-flight mode, they lose ability to engage in higher order functions. They`re also called executive functions, organization, planning.
After the incident, there was evidence of deleting of photos, for example. That`s an example of organization and planning. There was also indication that there was clean-up that occurred. That`s organization and planning. Keeping in mind that when someone...
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can we approach?
STEPHENS: You may.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. They are going to one of their many, many, many sidebars which gives us an opportunity to debate what this expert witness for the prosecution just said, which I think was a slam dunk.
She`s saying when you`re in a fog, you`re not doing organized thinking. And to delete the photos, which we know Jodi Arias did -- we could show some video of the crime scene and the photos that she deleted from the camera. Each deletion takes five steps in that camera.
So, let`s go to our expert panel and debate it. Jordan Rose for the prosecution, Rene Sandler for the defense, and our own Jon Lieberman. We start with Jordan Rose for the prosecution.
JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, she shows no -- no traits of true PTSD. And finally, we have a witness here who can testify to that. I mean, she`s deleted the photos. She`s done the laundry, for goodness sake. She goes and she has -- she obviously has a plan that she`s carrying out. And then she drives to Utah to bed the, you know, friend.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rene Sandler for the defense.
ROSE: This is a strong -- strong one.
RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What is so interesting about this witness today is that all of the planning happened after the crime. And what this expert essentially did was say there was no planning or premeditation or deliberation because she was in a fog. It helps the defense: after-crime conduct.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me, if you`re in a fog, Jon Lieberman, can you take a camera and it`s not like this easy one. This is a professional camera where it takes five different steps. You`ve got to go to the menu. Then you`ve got to do that. Then you`ve got to hit delete. You`ve got to -- five steps to delete each photograph. And she deleted numerous photographs in a fog?
JON LIEBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Jane, this was one of the best witnesses that the prosecution has had yet.
For one, she said, "Look, there`s no way that Jodi had these huge memory gaps, because that`s not how any of this presents itself."
And what was really important, Jane, was this: with these traumatic injuries or traumatic moments, you`re supposed to remember more.
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LIEBERMAN: Let me finish. You`re supposed to remember more as time goes on. But she actually remembered less, because Jodi spoke to this shrink after she spoke to Dr. Samuels.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
LIEBERMAN: And yet she remembered less.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re changing the rules of the game here, and luckily, you`ve got a couple of nice people. We`re going to give them five seconds each on the other side. Let`s go back into court. This is the most crucial point in the case, the rebuttal case by the prosecution. Listen.
MARTINEZ: Memory issues, as they involve fight or flight after the murder in terms of the organizational aspects only of this fight or flight. If an individual were in this, if the defendant was in this -- let`s speak generally. If an individual were in a fight-or-flight situation, how would it affect their memory after being in such an event?
DEMARTE: You can see some memory impairment if a person was in fight or flight.
MARTINEZ: Explain to me, characterize it for me what the memory impairment would be. How would it look?
DEMARTE: It would -- it would be of a shorter duration. It wouldn`t be as long as Miss Arias is reporting.
MARTINEZ: I`m talking generally right now. I`m not talking specifically. Generally speaking, it would be shorter duration.
What else, in terms of the new activity that an individual may engage in if they`re in this fight-or-flight situation and they may experience memory loss. What is characteristic of that?
DEMARTE: During the time...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
STEPHENS: Approach.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is a sidebar central. I think this case is going to actually break a record for the number of sidebars which, of course -- and we`re going to show you right now, the crime scene video. Because that connects directly, directly to what this witness is talking about right now.
This woman cleaned up the crime scene. And you look at her. She`s not happy about this witness, because she knows it`s bad news for her.
Jodi Arias cleaned up the crime scene. She deleted numerous photos. She took a gun. She took a knife. She got in a car. She drove into the desert. She disposed of the weapons that she used to kill Travis Alexander. And she`s claiming she did all of that in a fog.
And this expert witness for the prosecution is saying that`s not possible.
A short break, and then we`re back with more testimony on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMARTE: Fear of abandonment. A tendency to overstep boundaries, to be intrusive. Miss Arias, herself, notified me that she had checked with Facebook without his permission, read text messages without his permission. Engaging in these type of behaviors of "You don`t need me. Let me see what you`re going. I want you to be near me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM (via phone): The way you moan, baby, it sounds like you are this 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. It`s so hot.
ARIAS: It sounds like -- sounds like what?
ALEXANDER: A 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) this hot little girl.
ARIAS: You`re bad. You make me feel so dirty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense tried to use those phone sex tapes to argue that this woman was a battered woman, that she was sexually humiliated and degrading.
Well, now, this expert for the prosecution is saying unh-uh. She does not show signs of being a battered woman; nor does she have PTSD, in this expert`s opinion. But she is a borderline personality disorder, which is very serious stuff indeed.
Let`s go back into the courtroom and listen to more of this defense expert psychoanalyze this defendant, Jodi Arias.
MARTINEZ: The characteristics, ma`am, in a -- of memory loss in a fight- or-flight situation, you talked about short duration. Are there any other characteristics?
DEMARTE: Specific to memory?
MARTINEZ: Specific to memory, only. How memory would be affected.
DEMARTE: We would again expect that there would be an increase of memories over time.
MARTINEZ: And as to the events that are happening at the time, at -- shortly after the event, for example, would the individual have the organizational wherewithal, based on memory, to conduct very complex activities?
WILLMOTT: Objection. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
STEPHENS: Overruled.
MARTINEZ: If -- if they were suffering from this fight-or-flight memory loss?
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: And specifically in this case, immediately or after the killing, did you see indication that the defendant engaged in this complex activity involving memory after the killing that indicates to you this is not a fight-or-flight memory issue?
WILLMOTT: Objection, misleading.
STEPHENS: Overruled.
DEMARTE: Deleting photos would be an example.
MARTINEZ: You`re also -- and why is that? Deleting photos, what are you talking about?
DEMARTE: Because it`s an organizational process. It involves higher-order functions, highlighted earlier.
MARTINEZ: And so what you`re saying is, if they have a memory loss because of fight-or-flight, then they wouldn`t have the capacity, if you will, to do this sort of complex behavior? Is that what you`re saying?
DEMARTE: That is correct.
MARTINEZ: Of memory issues.
DEMARTE; That is correct.
MARTINEZ: And you also mentioned something about driving to Hoover Dam. Again, in terms of fight or flight and the memory issue, why is that important?
DEMARTE: We see when an individual is in a fight-or-flight mode, they can do a rote behavior that they `ve done before. It`s possible to drive in a car if they`ve gone to that same location numerous times, because it just becomes automatic. Again, not relying on some of the frontal lobe skills that I just highlighted.
MARTINEZ: Are you -- so, in assessing the defendant`s conduct after the killing and what you know, do you have an opinion as to whether or not the -- there was any memory issues or memory loss associated with fight or flight?
DEMARTE: I don`t believe that she was in a fight-or-flight state or that there was memory loss as a result of that.
MARTINEZ: Are you familiar with the term "dissociative amnesia"?
DEMARTE: I am.
MARTINEZ: What is it?
DEMARTE: It`s a loss of memory as a result of dissociation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s take a very short pause. We talked so much about the defendant. But let`s remember the victim, Travis Alexander. Charismatic, handsome, motivational speaker, who was stabbed 29 times. His throat was slit ear-to-ear, and he was shot in the face by Jodi Arias.
And the question is: Did she do this as part of a premeditated murder plan because she was furious that he was taking another woman to Cancun, as the prosecution contends? Or did she do this because he attacked her, because she dropped his new camera, and she was forced to defend herself, as the defense claims, arguing that she`s a battered woman who is suffering from PTSD?
Well, let`s debate it. This prosecution, clinical psychologist says, "Unh- uh, she does not have PTSD, but she does have borderline personality disorder." So I want to bring in our expert panel. We`re going to debate that.
I`ve got to start with Jordan Rose for the prosecution. That`s a double- edged sword. First of all, it makes me wonder, why didn`t they plead "not guilty by reason of insanity," given how bizarre her behavior has been? And actually, could some of the jurors feel sorry for her if this prosecution witness has given her this diagnosis of borderline personality disorder?
ROSE: Well, Jane, I think you`re absolutely right. I think her defense attorney should have certainly advised her to plead insanity. And my guess is that happened and that she is so narcissistic that she said, "No, no, no, no. I can convince these jurors like I`ve done to everyone else in my life, that I, in fact, should be, you know, should have a mitigation of a sentence."
Now, I think the good news for the prosecution today, and I think this could be our strongest witness yet. And I used to think LaViolette was because she was so bad for the defense. But today, what we saw was a woman who was totally detached and very methodical about her evaluation, in contrast to Dr. Samuels and LaViolette, who were basically in love with Jodi: gave her books and gifts, all sorts of things.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Rene Sandler for the defense, this woman talked to Jodi Arias for 12 hours. She said it was absolutely extreme for Alyce LaViolette, the defense expert, to talk to Jodi for 44 hours. That`s developing a relationship, and you can`t be objective after that.
SANDLER: I will say this. There does become a line with expert witnesses where it can cross over into more of a therapeutic setting. I don`t think it happened here with LaViolette.
I will say this in my experience. When a forensic psychologist comes in to evaluate for either side, 12 hours when testing is administered is not enough. Testing itself, psychological testing takes minimally six to eight hours. On top of that you have collateral interviews with others and then with the defendant. So -- and then the time you spend with the defendant just talking. So 12 hours, in my world and my experience, is not nearly enough.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s grade this witness, starting with Jon Lieberman. This prosecution witness.
LIEBERMAN: This witness was an A-plus for the prosecution. She brought up points like Jodi telling her that, when Jodi saw blood on her own hands around Hoover Dam, she said, "Oh, I must have killed Travis." I mean, that`s illogical.
She also pointed out that Jodi told her that she had been physically abused four times, just like she told the two defense experts, but she told another doctor that she had been abused many more times than that, which just showed more lies. I give this witness an A-plus.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go back to Rene Sandler. I mean, where is the debate here? You know, Jon Lieberman is giving her an A-plus. I think Jordan Rose is giving her an A-plus. What do you give her, Rene?
SANDLER: Honestly, she`s doing a good job. She`s there, and she`s doing a good job. She`s prepared. Her tone and demeanor are...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You agree that this is a disaster for the defense?
SANDLER: I...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are representing the defense on our show. You agree that this is a disaster for the defense?
SANDLER: You love to put words in my mouth. No, I did not say it was a disaster. I think this witness is strong. She hasn`t withstood cross- examination yet. So I think we need to wait and see.
They want a shot at her. I think she`s a little too confident and a little too married to certain positions. But she`s a consistent, solid witness so far for the state.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have more testimony from this crucial witness in the rebuttal attack by the prosecution on the other side. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to ask you this: Did you kill Travis Alexander?
ARIAS: Absolutely not.
I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
ARIAS: I don`t know who they were.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias changed her story yet again. She acted in self-defense.
ARIAS: No jury is going to convict me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
ARIAS: Because I`m innocent. And you can mark my words on that, no jury will convict me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMARTE: I had her think back to January 2007. The reason I chose that date is because she indicated that he started to, albeit jokingly, make comments to her that she didn`t like.
Very similar results. The most notable difference was that during that time she was having sexual concerns. Uneasiness about her sexual behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, this witness for the prosecution is saying that Jodi Arias had all sorts of anxious symptoms, nightmares, and anxiety, trouble sleeping, et cetera, et cetera. Back in January, 2007 when things started going south a little bit with Travis and her relationship. And I thought that might have been a double-edged sword, that that might help the defense a little bit. Because that shows that she was having repercussions from the, let`s say, kinkiness of their sexual relationship and the games, the S&M games they were purportedly playing.
Let`s debate that on the other side. But first, let`s go back into court where this expert witness for the prosecution is saying Jodi Arias did not go into a fog; she does remember killing Travis Alexander. She`s lying about that. Let`s go back.
DEMARTE: The hippocampus is an important part of the brain that`s associated with memory. What it does is it takes memories, and it does what`s called encoding. It takes memories from our short-term memory, and it puts it into our long-term memory. It`s kind of like a hallway is one way to think about it.
MARTINEZ: And how does that impact this case, now that we know that?
DEMARTE: What happens -- one of the theories about why you see memory loss in some of the examples I gave earlier, individuals who are exposed to child abuse repeatedly. One of the theories is that when an individual experiences trauma, they have an increase of cortisol. The cortisol does impact the hippocampus. It can impact it in a couple of ways.
It can cause it to atrophy, which we can think about just shrinking. It can also cause disorganization of the neurons. So what we see, as a result of that, is the hippocampus isn`t functioning like we typically would expect it to function, which again, is the process of encoding it from short-term to long-term.
MARTINEZ: And did you see this in this particular case, the phenomenon that you just described causing what would have resulted in memory loss?
DEMARTE: No, because what happens with the hippocampus is if it`s atrophied, it`s damaged, it`s damaged. You would expect to see continued memory impairment. It`s not isolated to a very specific time period.
MARTINEZ: What do you mean specifically in this case, that it`s not isolated to a specific time period?
DEMARTE: Miss Arias indicated to me that, after the killing, there was about four hours, four to five hours` worth of time she had no memory. In my interview with her, her memory was impeccable aside from -- from that incident. She`s very detailed. She remembers dates. She remembers information. There was no indication that she had continued cognitive deficit.
MARTINEZ: Did you ever have occasion to work with individuals that have been involved in abusive relationships?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: When did you begin working with individuals that were involved in abusive relationships?
DEMARTE: 2003.
MARTINEZ: And would that be in Massachusetts?
DEMARTE: That would be when I was in Michigan.
MARTINEZ: And what is it that you -- what kind of work did you do with people that were involved in these abusive relationships?
DEMARTE: One of the primary lines of research at Michigan State University is a very large research lab that`s dedicated to the evaluation of domestic violence victims. So, in that research lab there`s a couple psychologists that are in there, along with numerous graduate students who run this research lab and examine the impact of domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: And did you work in this lab with these other individuals?
DEMARTE: I did.
MARTINEZ: And for how long?
DEMARTE: I was at that lab about a year, year and a half.
MARTINEZ: And what were your duties in that lab that specialized in domestic violence?
DEMARTE: I met with woman who were exposed to domestic violence and conducted interviews with them, gave them various self-report measures about their experience of domestic violence.
MARTINEZ: And this went on for how long, again?
DEMARTE: About a year and a half.
MARTINEZ: And you did this and what was the purpose? What was your purpose for doing this? What would you do? What is the end result? Did you write something down? Did you give an opinion? What is it that you were doing when you talked to these women?
DEMARTE: Collecting information for a research study to see what are the impacts of domestic violence on individuals.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re taking a short break, and she said something that was extremely significant, that in her 12 hours of talking to Jodi Arias, this woman had an excellent memory, could remember anything and everything.
Again, she is really drilling holes in this concept that, when Jodi killed Travis Alexander, she was in a fog and doesn`t remember deleting the photos, taking the gun, taking the knife, driving into the desert. She says automatic actions, oh, they can happen in a fog. But she was going somewhere she hadn`t necessarily been before, Hoover Dam.
Let`s go out to Selin Darkalstanian, our producer, who has been in court. The rebuttal case under way, ferocious stuff, and it`s moving fast. What`s the mood in court, Selin?
SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: I can tell you that today as the rebuttal, we started the morning off, the defense said they rested right away. They went to this witness, who is a psychologist who has a lot of credibility.
And the jury was alert. They were taking a lot of notes. This psychologist is very methodical. She`s going over point by point by point what somebody with borderline disorder -- how -- what the symptoms are. And those jurors were taking notes. As she was going through each point, they were writing. I can tell you, I haven`t seen them take this many notes since the beginning of the trial. So they were definitely into this witness.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And you know, borderline personality disorder, a lot of people really don`t know what it means. On the other side of the break, we`re going to give you a definition. And it`s a very complex diagnosis. It`s much more complex than other diagnoses. And we`re going to debate it. Is it good or bad for the prosecution? Because could they feel sorry? These jurors could start to feel sorry for her if they think she`s mentally ill.
More on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS (via phone): You have a good looking (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
ALEXANDER (via phone): Yes.
ARIAS: It`s like -- yes.
Oh, you`re bad. You make me feel so dirty.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: You and Mr. (inaudible) engaged in anal intercourse, correct?
ARIAS: On two occasions.
You make me so horny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Maybe it was a white lie that she told; all this other stuff here refers to the white lie. What would that do to the validity of all the answers that follow?
JANEEN DEMARTE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It would invalidate it.
MARTINEZ: Can you see any circumstance or any necessity to score something three times?
DEMARTE: She scored relatively high in the above average range.
MARTINEZ: Was there ever an indication that somehow she had any problems such that her memory was affected?
DEMARTE: It`s some other evidence that Miss Arias decided to lie on the test.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Jodi Arias claims that she killed Travis Alexander by stabbing him 29 times, slitting his throat and shooting him in the face. She said she did all that in self-defense; that she was a battered woman.
Well, this prosecution expert, a clinical psychologist is taking the stand and knocking one point after the other out or attempting to, points that are crucial to the defense that she suffered as a battered woman. She`s saying no. That she has post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of domestic violence. She`s saying no. That she went into a fog and doesn`t remember the killing. She`s saying no.
Let`s go back into the courtroom and see what else this prosecution, clinical psychologist has to say to try to dismantle the self-defense defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Since then, have you had occasion to continue working in the area of domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Tell me what your experience is.
DEMARTE: Unfortunately, the prevalence of domestic violence occurs pretty frequently.
SHERRY STEPHENS, PRESIDING JUDGE: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Where have you worked with regard to domestic violence?
DEMARTE: In all of my clinical settings that I`ve worked in.
MARTINEZ: In all your what?
DEMARTE: All the clinical settings that I worked in, in a therapeutic manner.
MARTINEZ: Well let`s start with the clinical settings. Go ahead and give me the next place that you worked that involved this domestic violence.
DEMARTE: I started seeing patients in 2004 evaluating them in therapy at an outpatient clinic.
MARTINEZ: And when you say that you were evaluating, what is it that you did? I mean it sounds like evaluating means just looking at it. What is it that you did?
DEMARTE: Similar to what I highlighted earlier today about what a psychological evaluation is: conducting interviews, giving tests.
MARTINEZ: And how long were you there?
DEMARTE: At that outpatient clinic from 2004 to 2008.
MARTINEZ: Can you give us a number, if you will, of the number of people that you saw that were involved in these domestic violence issues?
DEMARTE: It`s very hard to give a number. I would say -- it`s hard for me to give a specific number -- several. It`s not uncommon.
MARTINEZ: Will you say you only saw two people? Is that what you are saying?
DEMARTE: No.
MARTINEZ: You said several.
DEMARTE: Several.
MARTINEZ: So you saw three people? Is that what you`re saying?
DEMARTE: No, much more than that.
MARTINEZ: So was this something you did on a day-to-day basis? Describe for me the inflow and outflow of people there. I don`t want numbers because you said you don`t know the exact numbers.
DEMARTE: Sure. Started with seeing patients weekly and I would say a large percentage of them had some sort of domestically violent background either with them as the perpetrator or as the victim.
MARTINEZ: When you say as the perpetrator, what are you talking about? Are these Individual that is actually are accused or how is it that they would come to your attention?
DEMARTE: They could have come specifically for that or they could have come for a variety of other mental health issues such as difficulty getting along with co-workers or potentially even depression or whatever the presenting problem was.
MARTINEZ: Were these people that were in or out of the court system or both?
DEMARTE: I have done both at a different location other than the one we are talking about.
MARTINEZ: After this location, where did you continue your work?
DEMARTE: I also did work at an outpatient facility where individuals were mandated to go after engaging in a domestic battery incident.
MARTINEZ: So when you say these individuals are involved, are you talking about the people that perpetuated it or are you talking about the people who received it, the domestic violence?
DEMARTE: In this situation, I was talking the perpetrator.
MARTINEZ: And how long did you work there?
DEMARTE: I was there for a short amount of time, a few months, I believe.
WILLMOTT: -- the foundation as to where this was?
STEPHENS: Sustained.
MARTINEZ: Where?
DEMARTE: Can I reference my CV --
MARTINEZ: Sure. Go ahead.
DEMARTE: Ok.
MARTINEZ: This is exhibit --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are taking a brief pause and this witness, this clinical psychologist for the prosecution has diagnosed Jodi Arias with borderline personality disorder. Let`s debate it. Now that is defined among other things as unstable self-image, tenuous sense of self. You idealize people then you devalue them. You swing from extremely positive regard to extreme dislike. Is it a benefit for Jodi or does it hurt her to get this diagnosis? Starting with Rene Sandler for the defense.
RENE SANDLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It benefits Jodi Arias in two ways. It`s an incredible complex and confusing diagnoses, which any type of confusion inures to the benefit of the defendant. Number two, it could evoke sympathy, somebody that is mentally ill. Again, somebody that suffers from this is seriously ill.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman.
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I don`t think it really plays one way or another. I mean I think the point is that Dr. Demarte, number one was credible up. She even pointed out she interviewed a number of other people. She didn`t just take Jodi Arias` word for it. She was credible and she pointed out, look, Alyce LaViolette didn`t even write a report on Jodi.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jordan Rose for the prosecution.
JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Well, I think that in this case, because she also testified that Jodi has above average intelligence that jurors will not feel sorry for her as if she`s mentally ill although she certainly is mentally ill. The woman also testified about how she`s having aggressive personality since childhood.
LEIBERMAN: None of it is an excuse to kill.
ROSE: And that`s helpful.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to break. We`ll be back with more in a second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER: The way you moan baby, it sounds like you are a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. It`s so hot.
ARIAS: It sounds like what?
ALEXANDER: A 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hot little girl.
ARIAS: You are bad. You make me feel so dirty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: What a horror. We want to bring you the latest on this terrifying bombing near the finish line at the Boston Marathon yesterday. An update, a sad one, all three people killed by the blast have now been identified: 29-year-old Krystle Campbell and a little eight-year-old boy by the name of Martin Richards. There he is, that angel confirmed dead tonight. The third person killed was a Boston University graduate student, according to a school official, whose name has not yet been released -- that third victim.
At least 183 people wounded. Many of them lost limbs. You are seeing photos from CNN affiliate WHDH of a bag. We`ll show you that in a second. There it is -- a bag that may be suspicious. What you`re seeing is a light-colored bag. Authorities believe however the bombs may have been in dark colored nylon bags or backpacks.
The FBI says, quote, "Range of suspects and motives remains wide open," end quote. We are going to keep you updated on this horrible tragedy.
And back with more coverage of the Jodi Arias trial on the other side of the break.
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DEMARTE: Unstable in personal relationships, unstable emotions and an unstable sense of identity, fear of abandonment. There`s a tendency to overstep boundaries, to be intrusive. Miss Arias herself notified me that she had checked his Facebook without his permission, read text messages without his permission by spying on him, by being intrusive with his space. She had a tendency to either idealize them on one hand or devalue them and despise them.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that is a very good description, I think, of Jodi Arias. I mean a tendency to overstep boundaries. She went into Travis Alexander`s house through the doggy door. She slashed tires allegedly when he started dating other women. She looked into his cell phone.
Let`s go back into court and hear more of this expert psychologist for the prosecution try to get inside Jodi Arias` head.
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MARTINEZ: This is exhibit 624, take a look at it (inaudible) then we can continue. All right. Without looking at it, what is the name of the (inaudible)?
DEMARTE: Prevention and training services.
MARTINEZ: What was it again? I didn`t hear you.
DEMARTE: Prevention and training services.
MARTINEZ: And where is this? What town?
DEMARTE: This is in Michigan.
MARTINEZ: After that, did you continue working in the area of domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes. And before that, too, there was another place.
MARTINEZ: What was the name of the place?
DEMARTE: I worked at a prison.
MARTINEZ: And what did you do at the prison as it applied to this issue involving domestic violence?
DEMARTE: I conducted group therapy.
MARTINEZ: And you conducted group therapy with whom? Why don`t you explain to us what it was that you did?
DEMARTE: I did a variety of therapy there. I conducted group therapy for individuals who had engaged in a sexual crime. I also ran a group of individuals who had engaged in assaults. And that`s the area specific to domestic violence where there were several individuals in there who had perpetrated violence.
MARTINEZ: After that -- after those experiences in Michigan, did you continue working in this area involving domestic violence?
DEMARTE: Yes.
MARTINEZ: Tell me about that.
DEMARTE: Well, as I highlighted earlier with the outpatient clinic that I was working in up until 2008, several of the patients that I worked with had a history of being exposed to domestic violence.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So this woman has experience with domestic violence and she is an expert in area of domestic violence and she`s saying Jodi Arias is not a victim of domestic violence.
We are going to take a short break. We`re going to be back with more on the other side. What a big day in court.
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DEMARTE: Processing speed essentially what that tells us is how fast someone can think.
MARTINEZ: So what was her overall score or IQ score?
DEMARTE: She scored relatively high in the above average range. Overall IQ is 119.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they going after Travis? For what reason? You tell me this, but you give me no reason.
ARIAS: They didn`t discuss much. They just argued.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About what?
ARIAS: About whether or not to kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For what reason?
ARIAS: Because I`m a witness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A witness of what?
ARIAS: Of him, of Travis.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, you`ve been in court all day. This prosecution psychologist saying she`s above average intelligence and she can think on her feet very quickly, which we see in these interrogation tapes where she just pulls stories out of thin air and tells them in a believable manner.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. That intelligence test that she gave her had four different parts, four different scores. Overall she got 119, above average. Some say superior. But that first of the four categories is verbal comprehension. She got the highest possible score, superior in verbal comprehension.
And that of course we have seen. She writes well in her journals and she certainly could think fast, as you say, in the interrogations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`ve been debating whether or not this diagnosis of borderline personality disorder is helpful for the defense possibly, or it`s good for the prosecution because if somebody is sick, if they`re mentally ill, you might have a tendency to feel sorry for them and give them a bit of a pass. What is your take on the double-edged sword with that testimony?
KARAS: Well, it is something I thought about thinking, hmm, this might help if the jury convicts of first-degree murder. Maybe it`s some mitigation evidence that she has this problem, but it certainly, you know, will keep her locked up for the rest of her life even if the jury rejects death. Again, if it`s a first-degree murder conviction, the judge will decide which of the life sentences. If the jury decides life, there are two possibilities. The judge could give her natural life or 25 to life meaning parole eligibility after 25 years.
In any event it is a little bit of a mitigator, I think. But there are probably plenty of people who are walking around with borderline personality disorder and are law-abiding members of society.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, we certainly don`t want to stigmatize. You make a very good point. We don`t want to stigmatize anybody, but this is something that was said in court so we have to address it.
Now, coming up, this case has obviously taken over. It`s exploded. It`s a national obsession, and it has gone online like crazy. Well, now they have a parody and you have to see this parody this on the other side. You`ve just got to see it. Take my word for it.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes, I did. I think. No, I did. He attacked me and it was self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you explain how he was abusive?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was always just, like, yelly and screamy and just super shouty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re saying --
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do we know who she is? All right. Well, she gets the bangs and the attitude. This is part of the social media coverage of this case. But I think what she nails is the nonchalance with which Jodi discussed this horror. Travis Alexander was brutally, viciously killed.
Nancy is up next with more testimony.
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