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Arias Defense Grills State`s Rebuttal Witness

Aired April 17, 2013 - 20:00   ET



JANEEN DEMARTE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: ... constant fluctuations. There`s a lot of manipulation that`s involved with people who have borderline personality disorder.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He called me a skank, called me Pollyanna, called me porn star.

He made me feel like I was the most freaking beautiful woman on the whole planet.

DEMARTE: Unstable interpersonal relationships.

ARIAS: He began to have anal sex with me.

I kind of felt like a used piece of toilet paper, like a prostitute, sort of.

(INAUDIBLE) lock the door (INAUDIBLE) have a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: So you did enjoy the sex then. Is that what you`re telling me?

ARIAS: At times, I did.

DEMARTE: Unstable emotions.

ARIAS: He makes me sick and he makes me happy. He makes me sad and miserable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, she was fine. She was laughing simple little things.

DEMARTE: Unstable sense of identity.

ARIAS: I love Travis Victor Alexander so completely, but I don`t know any other way to be.

MARTINEZ: You were in love with him, and you didn`t want to let him go!

ARIAS: That`s not right. But I was in love with him.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots lover Travis Alexander to death, leaving him dead in a wet shower stall, bombshell tonight. Another day of mortal hand-to-hand combat between the state and Arias`s defense as Arias`s team tries their best to tear down the state`s first rebuttal witness.

And when the going gets tough, the tough gets going, right? Wrong! Does Arias claim she has a migraine in court?

Straight out to Jean Casarez with breaking news. We`re all camped outside the courthouse. Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, I can confirm, a reliable source is telling me that Jodi Arias is saying that she has a migraine headache. She didn`t look good in court, I will tell you that. And here`s what I saw with my own eyes. Everyone finally assembled, and Jodi Arias took her notebook and absolutely just left the courtroom. And the judge said there`d be a 35-minute recess. Now, common sense tells me they were trying to see if she could feel better.

GRACE: Wait a minute, Jean...

CASAREZ: Thirty-five minutes later...

GRACE: We`re showing a picture...

CASAREZ: ... she came back in...

GRACE: ... right now where Arias looks like she is about to vomit all over Wilbanks (sic). She`s holding it back. Go ahead, Jean.

CASAREZ: Well, and so then 35 minutes later, she came back in, the jury came in, and the judge said court would be -- an issue had arisen and court would be dismissed for the day. But she looked very peaked in court. She didn`t look well.

GRACE: You know, Wilmott (ph) is sitting there as if nothing is going on. All the while Arias is getting paler and paler, then her nose and her fingertips and all around parts of her mouth start getting red.

May I ask you, Jean Casarez, Wilmott obviously not clued in to what`s going on. What was happening in court when Arias nearly gags?

CASAREZ: Well, it was right after lunch. And the defense went in for an ex parte appearance with the judge. I know that because the court reporter went in. Jodi Arias came in later. She actually went in there. And when she came out, that`s when she immediately left with her notebooks. So maybe she started getting sick in there. But you`re saying you`re seeing it there in open court.

GRACE: Yes, I`m just wondering what the testimony had been, what exhibits had been used in court before she got sick. Always claiming she had a migraine. Do you know, Jean?

CASAREZ: No, but I can tell you the defense was on cross-examination with the psychologist for the prosecution in their rebuttal case, and the defense was actually making points today. So they were going really well, and then Jodi gets sick. So it`s not a point of trying to stop court because it`s not going well for you.

GRACE: Well, you know, I think that`s a matter of opinion. The fact that they break -- Wilmott manages to break her down, to get the witness to saying that some of the time she was practicing and seeing patients, she was also in school. I don`t see that as a very big score.

Everybody, we are camped outside the courthouse and taking your calls. Let`s go straight into the courtroom.


JENNIFER WILMOTT, ARIAS`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And the PDS (ph) test, that is something specific for pre -- post-traumatic stress, isn`t it?


WILMOTT: OK. And that`s one of your specialties, right?


WILMOTT: According to the Web site that you advertise on?


WILMOTT: And you`ve never given the post-traumatic stress test, the PDS test.

DEMARTE: Right, because there`s a number of other methods. I`m very familiar with Ed Novella`s (ph) work, though, who`s the creator of the test.

WILMOTT: Who`s the creator?

DEMARTE: Ed Novella.

WILMOTT: And you`re familiar with the work, but you didn`t own a copy of it, right?


WILMOTT: And in fact, you had to go buy your own copy to understand what Dr. Samuels did.

DEMARTE: Incorrect.

WILMOTT: Well, you had to buy your own copy because you didn`t have the test questions, right?

DEMARTE: I didn`t buy a copy.

WILMOTT: Oh. Did you borrow it from someone else?

DEMARTE: I obtained a copy from a colleague who had it.

WILMOTT: Oh, OK, so because you didn`t have it.

DEMARTE: I do not have it.

WILMOTT: All right. So because -- and -- and what you had from Dr. Samuels was Jodi`s answers to the PDS test, right?

DEMARTE: That`s all he gave me.

WILMOTT: OK. And so what you didn`t have, then, was the questions of what -- the PDS test itself, right?


WILMOTT: And that`s what you say you borrowed from a colleague.

DEMARTE: The actual test questions.



WILMOTT: All right. And so because you hadn`t given the test before, you didn`t really have any experience giving it, then, right, because you`d never done it.

DEMARTE: I didn`t have experience giving that. It`s a basic self- report measure, similar to many other measures.

WILMOTT: But you didn`t have any experience giving it.

DEMARTE: Giving that one in particular, no.

WILMOTT: And this NCMI (ph) test, you`ve reviewed it, haven`t you?


WILMOTT: And you can say -- you can tell us that there`s no issues with the validity with regard to NCMI.

DEMARTE: Right. It`s (INAUDIBLE) in the normal range.

WILMOTT: And you looked about -- you looked at the base (ph) rate (ph) scores, didn`t you?


WILMOTT: And you remember talking about that yesterday?


WILMOTT: All right. I`m showing you exhibit 541. This is -- this the NCMI (INAUDIBLE) the profile, right?


WILMOTT: OK. And here we can see some of the scores, right?


WILMOTT: All right. So here we see anxiety, right?


WILMOTT: And the base rate score of that is 75.


WILMOTT: And at 75, even, you told us that that`s clinically significant, isn`t it?


WILMOTT: So it`s -- she`s elevated in anxiety, right?


WILMOTT: And then we have the next highest on here, we have PTSD, don`t we? Which is the scale at 69, right?


WILMOTT: And so while that doesn`t hit 75, it`s an elevated scale, right?


WILMOTT: It`s above normal.


WILMOTT: And it`s far above normal, isn`t it.

DEMARTE: It`s above. Yes, it`s still below the clinical significance.

WILMOTT: OK. And yesterday, you told us when things are below the clinical significance, you don`t just throw that away, do you?

DEMARTE: Correct.

WILMOTT: So it`s still something -- a data point, as you would say, that you would consider, right?

DEMARTE: Yes. Absolutely.

WILMOTT: And so the two highest scales on the NCMI, right, are we have anxiety and PTSD, don`t we?



GRACE: See, I don`t know what this is really getting Wilmott, because of course, she has anxiety. She murdered Travis Alexander. She stabbed him 29 times and shot him in the head and left him dead in the shower. Of course she has anxiety when she`s being examined by the state shrink.

We are live and taking your calls, camped outside the courthouse. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty- qualified prosecutor. Also with us tonight, defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Peter Odom.

Eleanor, as you recall, when we prosecuted together, I also worked at the battered women`s center at night and studied, read all of the works by Lenore Walker (ph), Dr. Lenore Walker, who we are hearing quoted in court left and right, just throwing her name around everywhere.

Everyone, with us tonight is Lenore Walker, Dr. Lenore Walker. This is who everybody`s talking about in the courtroom. This is who I have studied since about 1984, who literally wrote the book on battered women`s syndrome.

Eleanor, Jean was saying that there`s no reason for Jodi Arias to gag and vomit and call court short, but she did. I disagree because I don`t think Wilmott is making that much headway. I just don`t see -- I mean, she`s nitpicking the witness to death, and then Arias gets a headache and they call it all off once again.

Hey, El, have you ever tried a case with a headache? I have.

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Well, I`ve tried cases sick. You know, you just do what you have to do. But Nancy, let`s not forget, what people aren`t talking about is the jury. How is the jury taking in this testimony? And they may be right with that witness, right with the state. And oh, gosh, the defense has got to try to do whatever they can.

And remember, the defense goal always is to delay because they`re the ones who benefit more from a delay than the state does. So keep that in mind when you`re looking at all these issues.

GRACE: Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, a former felony prosecutor. I just don`t think it`s a good signal when your client -- if it`s going so great, why does she keep faking out migraines and leaving court?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it was going well for the defense, Nancy. It certainly was not...


PETER ODOM: ... a disastrous day. The defense is doing with...

GRACE: That`s true.

PETER ODOM: ... this witness what they`ve been doing with a lot of the witnesses. As I`ve said before, it`s not going to be a grand slam. They`re not going to tear this witness from limb to limb. But they`re going to chip away at the witness. It`s going to be bunts and singles, rather than a grand slam. That`s exactly what they`re doing.

GRACE: Why do you think they`re doing so well? That`s what I -- and give it to me in a nutshell. This is not an appellate argument to the U.S. Supreme Court, all right?


GRACE: This is ping-pong, not chess. Why do you think they`re doing so well?

PETER ODOM: Because they`re showing little cracks in the foundation.

GRACE: What little crack?

PETER ODOM: Oh, how about this, Nancy? Today, the fact that this -- this doctor had claimed to be a psychologist for longer than she actually had been.

GRACE: I just mentioned that. What she actually said -- let me go out to you, Beth Karas. Didn`t she say -- they were questioning her on how many years she had treated patients. And I believe that she is listed on line as -- at or whatever it is -- for eight years. And it turned out that some of those years, she was seeing clients, patients, while she was in school, and she counted that as her years, right?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Yes, because she was in training. She said she was under the supervision of another psychologist`s license because she wasn`t licensed yet, but she was still seeing her own patients and making assessments. And she was seeing them alone, not with another psychologist in the room. You can`t use a term "psychologist" unless you`re licensed. She didn`t get licensed until 2010. She started evaluating Jodi Arias a year after she got her license.

GRACE: OK. I got it.

KARAS: But she had been working with patients for years.

GRACE: So Peter Odom, that`s the big score you`re talking about?

PETER ODOM: Like I said, Nancy, there is no big score. It`s little cracks. And yes, it`s a little crack because you know what she did?


PETER ODOM: She pumped herself up further than she should have.

GRACE: OK. You know what? When you compare everything to Dick Samuels, I think that they`ve got a long way to go.

Very quickly, Jean Casarez, we`re about to go back into testimony -- when did you first notice Arias over there looking sick, or trying to look sick? I don`t know which one it really is.

CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, I didn`t notice her sick at all until she came back in. But may I make myself clear? I`m not saying an immense amount of points were made. Chipping away is there, but the TSI test, is there, which is Trauma Symptoms Inventory, she got a very low score for anger, irritability. That`s the last thing the jury heard before lunch.



WILMOTT: You don`t consider yourself an expert in domestic violence, do you?

DEMARTE: Depends on how you define expert.

WILMOTT: Do you define yourself as an expert of domestic violence?

DEMARTE: I would not call myself an expert in domestic violence specifically.

WILMOTT: You see Jodi answered that question, repeated emotional and psychological abuse, right?

DEMARTE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi Arias, his crazy ex-girlfriend, slashing his tires all the time, stalking.

SANDY ARIAS, JODI`S MOTHER: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time!

WILMOTT: (INAUDIBLE) describe the traumatic event.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yelling, screaming.

SANDY ARIAS: Jodi is bipolar and she needs help.

MARTINEZ: "Get away from me" is a response to stalking, isn`t it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then he said...


GRACE: We are getting flooded with e-mails and phone calls from viewers that have been watching court very carefully today that say that Wilmott mouthed the word "bitch" at the witness, the state`s witness, DeMarte, on the stand.

OK, let`s see for ourselves. Liz, can you roll that for me?


DEMARTE: ... show me what you`re referring to?

WILMOTT: Sure. Do you want to see the questions or...

DEMARTE: Whatever you`re referring to.



GRACE: I don`t know. I heard that, and it did sound like the word "bitch." But out of context, I can`t tell why she would say that. Let`s roll it again one more time, Liz. Let`s find out if Wilmott`s cursing in court. She`s cuing it up right now. Let`s see it, Liz.


DEMARTE: Can you show me what you`re referring to?

WILMOTT: Sure. Do you want to see the questions or...

DEMARTE: Whatever you`re referring to.



GRACE: OK, I really heard it a lot better that time. It sounded like she was definitely saying, Sure, I`ll get it for you, bitch. OK. You know, that`ll be up to the judge to decide. It`s neither here nor there. If the jury heard it, then it`s a problem. If the jury didn`t hear it, it`s not a problem.

I`m hearing in my ear we`re ready to go back in the courtroom. Let`s go, Liz.


DEMARTE: I access journals. I don`t -- I mean journal articles. I don`t access specific journals. So if there`s a patient that I`m seeing that is suffering with a particular disorder or problem, I`ll look up research associated with that, and just using a broad database.

WILMOTT: So then are you telling me that, regularly speaking, you don`t keep up with domestic violence in any research in the field by regularly reading domestic violence journals, the articles contained in these special journals?

DEMARTE: No, that`s not what I`m saying.

WILMOTT: So you do then regularly keep up with domestic violence journals.

DEMARTE: You`re talking about journals, and I`m talking about research articles. Those are very different things.

WILMOTT: Well, I`m talking about the articles contained in the journals.

DEMARTE: Right. So I read articles frequently.

WILMOTT: Right. OK. So I understand that you read articles frequently. What I`m talking about is are you reading articles frequently that are contained and written especially for domestic violence?

DEMARTE: Yes. I don`t know the exact journals because as I`m reading the article, I don`t look up and reference what journal it specifically came from.


DEMARTE: I just know it`s peer-reviewed.

WILMOTT: OK. Can you give us any of the names of the articles that you`ve read recently?

DEMARTE: I don`t commit those to memory.

WILMOTT: OK. So when was the last time you read one of these?

DEMARTE: Last week.

WILMOTT: OK, and you don`t remember the name of it?

DEMARTE: I don`t commit these things to memory. I have a full patient load that I see on a weekly basis. That`s not something that`s important to me, to keep the title of it.

WILMOTT: OK. And you don`t remember the journal that you got it from.

DEMARTE: I didn`t get it from a journal. Again, I got it from a broad database.

WILMOTT: Right, right, right. But ultimately, they`re published in a journal, aren`t they?


WILMOTT: OK. And you don`t remember the name of the journal that this was -- article that you read last week was published in.

DEMARTE: I did not look at the journal, correct.


You don`t consider yourself an expert in domestic violence, do you?

DEMARTE: I`m an expert as a clinical psychologist.

WILMOTT: Well, clinical psychologist is kind of a big general area, isn`t it?

DEMARTE: Correct.

WILMOTT: OK. So you`re an expert in clinical psychology?


WILMOTT: OK. And so -- but you don`t consider yourself an expert in domestic violence, do you?

DEMARTE: I`ve had a lot of experience in domestic violence...


GRACE: I`m telling you, Wilmott is trying to copy Martinez. She needs to stick to her own style. This is not working with her. It is not working.


WILMOTT: So you are not an expert in domestic violence, according to you.

DEMARTE: I have a lot of experience with it, but I wouldn`t put that term on because I think it`s an important term...


WILMOTT: So you would not characterize yourself as an expert in domestic violence.

DEMARTE: Specifically, yes.




GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are camped out live at the courthouse, bringing you the very latest.

Wilmott went at the state`s rebuttal witness, DeMarte, tooth and claw all day long. And in many legal eagles` opinions, she didn`t make a dent. Wilmott seems to be taking on or trying to take on the approach of Martinez, waving the arms, going back and forth in the courtroom. But it`s not working. It is not working. She needs to go back to what she does the best. I don`t see a dent in the witness at all.

And you keep hearing "battered women," "battered women," "Lenore Walker," "Lenore Walker." Lenore Walker is with us tonight, and she will be taking your calls.

Let`s go to the lines. Susan in Idaho. Hi, Susan. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is can the prosecutor call a last-minute witness like Matt (ph)?

GRACE: You mean like Matt McCartney (ph)? The prosecution can call a newly discovered witness without giving notice. Typically, you don`t have to give notice of your rebuttal witnesses. You do have to give each other your witnesses in the case in chief.

Very quickly, out to you, Alexis Tereszcuk. Do we know if Matt McCartney is going to make an appearance as a witness?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM (via telephone): As of now, he is not scheduled. He`s not on anyone`s list (INAUDIBLE)


TERESZCUK: ... appearance.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, it seems to me like he would have to come in. I`m very surprised nobody`s calling him. That must mean he`s radioactive to both sides.

CASAREZ: You know why I`m so surprised? Because the prosecutor has hinted about it in testimony when Jodi was on the stand, about her friend who would always be trustworthy, would never turn his back on her. I mean, that made us think that he was going to be in the rebuttal case.

GRACE: What about it, Beth?

KARAS: Yes, I think that it`s highly unlikely we`re going to see Matt McCartney in this case. I mean, both sides arguably could have put him on, but for some reason, they are not. Even though he...

GRACE: Hey, Beth...

KARAS: ... might have something more helpful to the defense in this case, they didn`t call him. Yes?

GRACE: What do you think, if any, were the major points that Wilmott got DeMarte on, if any?

KARAS: Well, she concedes that you can still have compassion and be an objective evaluator, something that the state has criticized LaViolette and Samuels on having just too much. They`ve crossed the ethical line and they got too involved with Jodi, and you know, weren`t being an object to be evaluated. That`s one point, but that`s a small point. She hasn`t finished her cross. She`s starting to make some other points.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even within her journals, the way that she talks about her boyfriends, it has this very -- for lack of a better word -- saccharine kind of feel to it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Travis always told me she likes the name Iris for a girl."

ARIAS: There`s an excitement about the future.

He said the hot quota (ph) or status (ph) or -- I don`t remember what he said. He made some comments. I took it as a compliment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found it to be strange and immature.

ARIAS: I really enjoy (INAUDIBLE) people...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her appearance had indicated that -- she was described as being happy as hell when they came to visit her in jail. I was curious about what that immaturity could mean.

WILMOTT: And what you found out is that she actually has a pretty high IQ, right?

DEMARTE: That`s correct.

MARTINEZ: She believed that her IQ was as high as Einstein`s. Do you know anything about that?



GRACE: For those of you just joining us, we are live bringing you the latest. Everybody`s camped outside that Phoenix courthouse. In the last hours as court was finally chugging along at a fairly good pace, all of a sudden Arias appears to gag in court. There`s a quick side bar, and then court is adjourned for the day. But not before Wilmont tries to get in her licks on the state`s first rebuttal witness, DeMarte. Now, we have relistened and relistened and relistened to what Wilmont said. I`m not convinced that she`s calling DeMarte a bitch. I`m just not convinced, especially when you take in the context. But right now, I`d love to argue about who said what and who said bitch in court. But you know what? I want to hear the testimony. Let`s go, Liz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In fact, part of what you talked to us yesterday is the fact that your belief that just because a woman does not go see a doctor if her husband beats her or if she doesn`t call the police because her husband hits her, somehow to you that is a data point that is going to be suggestive that maybe didn`t happen, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a data point. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That to you, in this particular case, it suggested to you that it didn`t happen, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and if it was there, it would suggest that it did happen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So with battered women, based on your experience, you`re expecting battered women to report them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, not all the time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, then you`re aware they minimize, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are aware that they oftentimes don`t report.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you are aware that oftentimes they don`t call the police when they`re hit by their loved ones.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am aware of that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re aware that they don`t go to the doctor when they`re hurt by their loved ones?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, Dr. DeMarte. We`re talking about the MCMI, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s see if we can get through this. The MCMI ultimately produces a diagnosis, doesn`t it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rule out diagnoses, things to consider.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, so things to consider. They talk about access one and access two.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Access one, with regard to MCMI and also what Dr. Samuels found with regard to this other report, you are aware that he diagnosed access one as post traumatic stress, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he found it to be acute.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you are aware that under access one, he has anxiety disorder, none other specified, NOS.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under access one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: what are you referring to?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so under access one, he also has anxiety disorder?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And under access two, you`re aware that based on the MCMI, the diagnosis was personality disorder NOS.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So there was no diagnosis for borderline, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was personality NOS, indicating that there was the presence of a personality disorder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. It`s not specifically indicating borderline, is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, that`s correct.

GRACE: Straight out to Alexis Weed on the story. Alexis, is it true that Jodi Arias came into court in full make-up and had her hair done differently, and then came back in, was wearing glasses and looking sick and had taken off all her make-up?

WEED: Yes, she definitely looked piqued in the afternoon once we came back. I don`t know if she was in full make-up, but she definitely looked like she was a little glitzed up.

GRACE: Everyone, joining me right now is a very special guest. A woman who I have studied, her works for many, many years. With me is professor (inaudible) Southeastern University and the executive director of Domestic Violence Institute, Lenore Walker. Dr. Walker, thank you for being with us.

DR. LENORE WALKER: My pleasure.

GRACE: Dr. Walker, I have been an admirer and studied your books for many, many years in my work with battered women. It`s an honor to get to speak to you. Today in court, Dr. Walker, it was stated that you no longer follow your own chart when diagnosing someone or evaluating someone to determine if they are, in fact, a battered woman. I believe it`s a six- point process?

WALKER: Well, I have a six-point process that offers diagnosis when I see a client. Originally I made some ideas that I thought were important to look for as a diagnosis. But it wasn`t actually to make a diagnosis at that time. And things evolve. I`ve been doing the work as you know, Nancy, for over 30 years. And we have much more precision now in how to make a diagnosis.

GRACE: Yes. So Dr. Walker, do you still use your own -- I`m calling it a chart for lack of a better word.

WALKER: I don`t know which chart, Nancy.

GRACE: Your six points.

WALKER: I use the three points of the six are PTSD diagnoses, they include the re-experiencing of trauma, high levels of anxiety and high levels of depression or disassociation. And then problems with interpersonal relationships, No. 4. No. 5, with the body image or physical issues, and then No. 6 are sexual issues.

GRACE: Leave that screen up for me, Liz. Tendency to re-experience, avoid increased arousal, impaired social relationships, batterer controls movements, many medical problems and complaints. Interesting.

You know, I thought a lot about how Arias does not fit into many of these. But, Dr. Walker, tell me, what is so controversial about your research? I have found it to make perfect sense.

WALKER: Well, I think many people didn`t like originally I used the terms, the theory of learned helplessness to define some of what women do in the dynamics of abuse. Some of the feminist colleagues felt that term was pejorative. In other cases, I think people just misunderstand it. It`s a very, as you know, a very highly emotional area. And people often try to make decisions whether they like someone or they don`t like someone. But you know, battered women can be likable or unlikable.

GRACE: That`s true. They certainly can. I noticed today that the defense attorney Wilmont was drilling the fact that, quote, even Lenore Walker doesn`t use her own criteria anymore. But the criteria you just laid out is the criteria, the well-established criteria that you created so long ago.

WALKER: And I still use it.

GRACE: Dr. Walker, there`s so many misconceptions about the battered women syndrome, and I had to be very, very careful in court when I would prosecute a woman that had killed a male. Because a red flag would always go through my mind. Was this self-defense? Was this a battered woman defense? My question is, if Jodi Arias was lying about Travis Alexander abusing her, could she still be a battered woman?

WALKER: Sure. Battered women lie all the time. That`s how they stay alive. That`s how they deal with the shame that they feel. So lying is not new for battered women. But it isn`t just whether or not someone`s a battered woman that`s important in these cases, as you well know, Nancy. It doesn`t give them a free pass just because they`re a battered woman. It`s really used only to help us understand whether or not they were in fear of what was happening, that they would be seriously harmed or killed at the time that they commit a homicide. And so that`s what we have to look at. And that`s not what I`ve heard yet in this trial.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love him, she writes, I could not possibly love him not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel it`s possible that Jodi could be exaggerating abuse events?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything`s possible.


GRACE: Everyone, with me tonight, the woman that literally wrote the book, the book you`re hearing about, the woman you`re hearing about in court. Wilmont throwing around Lenore Walker battered women syndrome left and right. With us is Lenore Walker, who created the theory supporting the battered woman syndrome. And Dr. Walker, before we go back in court, I just wanted to tell you that back in the `80s, I was handed your book and told I had to read it before I could counsel battered women. I`ve read every single thing that I know of you`ve ever written, and it`s such a great honor to have you, and I`m so glad they put that book in my hand so long ago. So I could understand the dynamic and what is going on in court today, and with that said about Dr. Walker, let`s go back into court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Now you conducted your own TSI, didn`t you?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you said you hand scored it?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So when you hand score it, then you don`t get a computer printout obviously, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And do you have your hand scores with you today?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you pull those out, please? Can I have them? (inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The information that you would get once you scored it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want the scale scores? (inaudible).

Which scales?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, is that all the scales you look at under the TSI?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you have part of the work sheet you show a raw score, right?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you also show what the T score is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a T score is what you plot into a graph.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the T score, what we`ve been talking about this morning is when it gets plotted into a graph, you`re looking at that number whether or not it`s clinically significant?



And this particular TSI test, when did you give it?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 2011? All right. And you gave a TSI once, right?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know who Maryann Dutton (ph) is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I have heard of Dutton--

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is Maryann Dutton?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe a researcher.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Tell us what her research has shown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know off the top of my head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know she`s a leading researcher in battered women syndrome, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know off the top of my head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, then perhaps you know that she has done updated research with regard to battered women syndrome, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like you have some information about that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not aware of her name specifically as I highlighted earlier. I don`t commit that to memory.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, then maybe do you commit to memory that the updated research with regard to battered women syndrome actually takes a global view at it now? Are you aware of that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you mean by global view?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that it shows the more likely diagnosis --

GRACE: I mean, really. She`s got to get down to the murder. Talking about a global theory, way off mark.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you aware then that with the updated research, even Lenore Walker isn`t using those six criteria anymore? Are you aware of that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those six criteria--

GRACE: OK. Dr. Walker, Lenore Walker, just told us four minutes ago that she is using that criteria. So Wilmont is totally wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That doesn`t sound accurate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you disagree then?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`ve never met Lenore Walker, have you?





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it common for a photograph to have some sort of reflection?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I get an outline, a rough outline of what I can see in the lab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What they`re asking the court to do is take a look at what is clearly a dog and say that it`s a person standing there. That`s what I saw.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This outline you`ve done, that`s not an alteration to the photograph, is that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many of those ten people will think it`s a dog, how many of those 10 people will think it`s a gopher or any other sort of animal, we just don`t know.



GRACE: Many people say the defense is grasping at straws, and maybe they are. We`re going straight back to the courtroom. Quickly to Dr. Panchali Dhar joining us, New York Presbyterian Hospital. Dr., thank you for being with us. This is now the third time we know of court has been canceled abruptly because Arias claims to have a migraine. What do you make of it?

DR. PANCHALI DHAR, NY PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: You`re describing that she`s becoming pale and nauseous and feeling more sick, to the point that she can`t hold up in court. She probably has migraine syndrome.


GRACE: Doctor, I don`t know that. I know she took off her makeup, she took off her makeup and she put on her glasses. That`s really all I know.

DHAR: OK. This has happened frequently. This woman is debilitated from her headaches, so she says. If they are pounding, throbbing, one- sided headaches associated with nausea and they are leading to an inability to move on with her daily activities, she probably does have migraines, and she needs to be on some preventive medication under (inaudible) of a physician. Now, if she`s not on the preventive medication, then she`s not being treated properly for her migraines.

GRACE: Well, that`s interesting. I am going to find out. Isn`t it true, Beth Karas, that she has been taking medication, we have seen her pop pills all the way through the trial, right?

KARAS: Yes. She did take a pill, something that the sheriff`s department allowed her to have, it was given by a doctor, however it is not a prescription drug. It`s not a psychotropic drug. It`s an over the counter pill.

GRACE: Well, she`s taking the pill, that means she`s on medication, that means she shouldn`t be having these migraines if she`s on medication. Stacy Newman, what do we know?

NEWMAN: Well, Nancy, remember when prosecutor, Juan Martinez, was grilling the defense expert LaViolette, how many people did you interview in this case besides Arias? She said only Arias. Well, Wilmont tried the same thing in court with this expert, asking her, how many people did you interview besides Arias? Her only answer was Travis Alexander`s brother.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, psychologist Dr. Bonnie Forrest. Dr. Forrest, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the defense in this case?

FORREST: I got to tell you, Nancy, I am in so much agreement with you. I think the defense attorney is really doing a poor job. I don`t think the jury will buy this nitpicking, and I don`t think she followed up on low hanging fruit. When somebody says they have eight years of experience, yes, the answer is that a lot of it was pre-license. But then you only had three years of licensure and you`ve only seen X number of patients, and you have only done this many domestic violence. And it seems odd to me that you don`t remember Lenore Walker`s name, the expert in this area, and you may have read a case two days ago. She doesn`t go in on some of the things that she should, Nancy, but she does go in on others. It just seems odd to me. And I don`t think she`s helping the jury understand the larger picture here, I really don`t.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Robert Newton, 21, (inaudible), Illinois, Purple Heart, Service Deployment Ribbon, Afghanistan and Iraq campaign medals. Parents Richard and Denise, sister Brianna. Robert Newton, American hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re talking to me about inconsistencies. But that`s not what we`re talking about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His fiery temper does not mix with my tendency to cry at the drop of a hat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that`s not what I`m saying.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you do then regularly keep up with domestic violence journals?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re talking about journals, and I`m talking about research articles. Those are very different things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s the same pattern as always. He gets pissed, goes off on me, feels bad, we make up, things are mellow for a few days, and then the cycle begins again.

GRACE: That sounds like the battered women`s syndrome, except that we know she made up that whole entire journal.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor, also in the Atlanta jurisdiction, Peter Odom, defense attorney joining us.

Eleanor, the witness was very familiar with the works of Lenore Walker. And the reason that`s important is because she is the one that wrote the book on battered woman syndrome, she is the one that set up the six-point criteria to determine if someone is a battered woman, and she just told us, me, you, Peter, 10 minutes ago, Lenore Walker said, yes, I still use those six criteria, and named them. But we just heard the defense attorney say she didn`t even use her own criteria. The defense attorney is unschooled.

ELEANOR ODOM: Yes, Nancy, but unless that is pointed out later by the witness or by the state, then that is going to be unrebutted. So they have got to be real careful about that. The state needs to follow up.

GRACE: Peter, I`d like to get to you, but we are signing off. But before we go, I want to thank you all for your thoughts and your prayers for our boss, Scot Saffon (ph). The good news is he pulled through surgery and he is at home. And thank you to the nursing staff, nurse Judy and all the wonderful doctors at Mount Sinai in Florida for taking care of him.

Everyone, testimony is done, since Arias sicked out and called an end to the court day. "Dr. Drew" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.