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Dr. Drew
Tale Of The Tape; Jodi Arias Trial Coverage
Aired April 18, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Jodi Arias trial day 51. Smackdown.
WITNESS: I have a lot of experience in domestic violence.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, yesterday, you were not an expert of domestic violence. But now, today, you are.
PINSKY: Cat fight, cold-blooded cross.
WILLMOTT: Do you know what character assassination is?
PINSKY: Plus, inside Jodi`s confession.
INVESTIGATOR: You act just like everybody else who I have accused of doing a crime.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: Is this because I`m not crying?
PINSKY: Is this how to get a psychopath to finally tell the truth?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody. We`ve got a lot to discuss tonight.
The first order of business is to get back to the trial. So let us go ahead and hit the play button and finish out this day in court and get you back to Arizona for -- so you won`t miss a minute.
WITNESS: I used it while I was at Bayless still. So I left there in August 2012 and used it.
WILLMOTT: OK. So you haven`t used it since 2012 then?
WITNESS: Yes. Correct.
WILLMOTT: And were you asked the question about handwriting on --
WITNESS: I have it.
WILLMOTT: Oh, you have it?
(INAUDIBLE), right?
WITNESS: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And if, at the time the PDS test is given, the person does not have the actual test booklet with them, answers can be written down on an extra sheet of paper, can`t they?
WITNESS: I wouldn`t choose to do that.
WILLMOTT: But it can happen, right?
WITNESS: Yes, anybody can choose to do that.
WILLMOTT: OK. Showing you exhibit 534.
You see at the top here it says the name Jodi Arias, right?
WITNESS: I do.
WILLMOTT: And then check marks, right?
WITNESS: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And then for question 13. You see it says item 12, right?
WITNESS: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And the writing is repeated emotional slash psychological abuse, right?
WITNESS: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And if this information is taken and copied directly on to the PDS booklet, that wouldn`t be a problem then, right, as long as it`s the same information that`s copied?
WITNESS: If it was copied accurately.
WILLMOTT: And could you see the difference in handwriting where we see repeated emotional and seek logical abuse and let`s say circle numbers that apply. Do you see the difference in the handwriting there?
WITNESS: Yes. But I`m not a handwriting expert.
WILLMOTT: I know, just in your opinion.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Objection (INAUDIBLE)
JUDGE: Overruled.
WILLMOTT: You said yes, but you`re not an expert.
WITNESS: Isn`t the question is, do I see differences?
WILLMOTT: Yes. Do you see a difference in number 12, repeated emotional psychological abuse and then just line downwards says circle numbers that apply.
WITNESS: It looks a little different.
WILLMOTT: Just a little.
WITNESS: Yes.
WILLMOTT: OK.
I have nothing further. Thank you.
PINSKY: I brief that is going to do it for court for the day.
Good evening, everybody.
Joining me to discuss today`s proceedings, attorney Lisa Bloom with Avo.com, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and forensic and clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt. Today`s session, contentious, combative.
Maybe we`ll all decide it`s sort of a typical thing. Let`s watch and take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLMOTT: She`s short-term memories are not going to always get into our long term memory, right?
WITNESS: Not all of them.
WILLMOTT: Sometimes not any of them during their period of time, right?
WITNESS: That`s not typical.
WILLMOTT: It happens, doesn`t it?
WITNESS: That`s not typical.
WILLMOTT: I understand you`re saying that`s not typical, but it happens, right?
WITNESS: Anything`s possible, but it`s not probable.
WILLMOTT: That`s on purpose, as soon as that right? That`s the way we`re created?
WITNESS: Can you state that question in a different way?
WILLMOTT: No. That`s the way the brain is meant to work, right?
WITNESS: What`s the way that the brain`s meant to work?
WILLMOTT: Just because some of the executive function of our brain have shut down, it doesn`t make the person a walking idiot, right?
WITNESS: That`s correct. What typically happens is they engage in either fight or flight.
WILLMOTT: Right. I know that.
I`m speaking about memories that never get encoded to long term memories. So if they`re never encoded, there`s nothing there for the person to retrieve, don`t you agree?
WITNESS: I understood your question.
WILLMOTT: A, B, and C memories don`t get encoded to the brain as long term memories, right? Are you understanding so far?
WITNESS: I think you`re using different language that I am.
WILLMOTT: Whether it`s her own blood or not, it`s not a huge leap, is it, to say that I might have killed him -- knowing that everything that just happens, everything that she remembers about just happening?
WITNESS: As I stated before, it is a huge leap.
WILLMOTT: OK, and that`s a huge leap for you. That`s your personal opinion, isn`t it?
WITNESS: It`s my opinion as a psychologist.
WILLMOTT: You`re aware that after she met Mr. Alexander, within a week, he was sending Mormon missionaries to her house, right?
WITNESS: No.
WILLMOTT: Oh, you didn`t know that?
WITNESS: No.
WILLMOTT: Oh, OK. You weren`t aware of that? WITNESS: No.
WILLMOTT: You didn`t get that in your 12 hours?
WITNESS: I didn`t get that in my 12 hours.
WILLMOTT: The fifth one you talked about recurrent suicidal behaviors, gestures or threats, right?
WITNESS: Correct.
WILLMOTT: And also include self mutilating behavior.
WITNESS: Correct.
WILLMOTT: And there`s no self-mutilating behavior, right?
WITNESS: None that I`m aware of.
WILLMOTT: And you don`t know of any actual threats she made to anybody to commit suicide, right?
Let`s take a look at the anger subscales.
WITNESS: That would be an inappropriate use of the MMPI.
WILLMOTT: Well, let`s take a look at them anyway.
WITNESS: They`re non-interpretable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Beth Karas from "In Session", been in trial all day, been covering the trial relentlessly. The jury heard something about a ring, Beth. Tell us about that piece of the story.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It was redirect examination by Juan Martinez arguing apparently that the defense had opened the door by saying she scored low on some aggression scale, so he wanted to bring out that she did exhibit some aggressive behavior toward Travis Alexander. What did you remember about that? He says to Dr. DeMarte. And she said, well, she -- the theft of a ring from Travis Alexander.
What the jury doesn`t know is that it was an engagement ring that he had bought for another woman. He never gave it to her. He was maybe going to trade it in for another woman.
Jodi didn`t want him to have a ring to give to another woman or trade in her ring for another woman. So they did hear she stole his ring and she hacked into his Facebook account a number of times. That she deleted e- mails, exchanges between the two of them. But she deleted it in his account, meaning she hacked his e-mail to delete things he was keeping.
And also that she hid behind his Christmas tree once. She used to show up unannounced or she was behind his Christmas tree one year, I would imagine that was 2007, December 2007 --
PINSKY: Oh, but, Beth --
KARAS: -- because they weren`t officially girlfriend/boyfriend yet.
PINSKY: Beth, you`re being too harsh. She scored low on the aggression scales, low on the hostilities scales. How dare you say that hacking into people`s private material is aggressive? How dare you?
Thanks, Beth. Go ahead. Finish.
KARAS: That`s what the defense said. They objected to that, Dr. Drew. The defense said objection. That`s not really responsive.
I thought the witness was going to say she slashed tires. She was slashing tires, but, you know, either she didn`t know it or the judge didn`t allow it.
PINSKY: Interesting. Thank you, Beth.
Now the mental health lady you`re referring to, Janine DeMarte was a champion volleyball player, my producers tell me, and they came across a couple of pictures from the UMass-Amherst Web site of Janine in action in college. One caption reads Janine DeMarte records 13 kills in a 3-0 sweep. Another that she recorded 18 digs in a 3-2 win.
My alma mater right next in valley, Amherst, Massachusetts, right next to her at UMass.
Mark, I`m going to go to you, first. That all is in fun. It doesn`t make a damn bit of difference. But how do you feel she --
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Wait, sure it does.
PINSKY: Why?
EIGLARSH: I want all my experts to be excellent in volleyball. That`s what I look for --
PINSKY: You want there to be excellent people and excellent in something. That`s nice she`s well-rounded. There he is again. Well done.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: But my thing for her on the stand is I wonder if she could have been or could become a little bit more less defensive. There`s sort of a defensive quality about her that makes her feel kind of arrogant. And I don`t think she intends that, and I don`t think she`s that way, do you agree?
EIGLARSH: Easy for you to say when you`re not being attacked for hours. I don`t know who wouldn`t lose their cool. I actually thought she was amazing at being able to stay composed when there is somebody she clearly believes is less intelligent than her especially on this matter.
And even the defense attorney would concede she`s not expert in the subject matter. So, she`s got to hold that back, being attacked left and right for hours. I think in that area she was extraordinary.
PINSKY: Well, you`re going to have a chance to grade her later in the show.
Lisa, I want to ask you this question. When I`ve been on the stand or I`ve had to be in depositions or something, I tend to do what she does. I want to be really sure I`m understanding the question that were not -- they can`t come back later and said, oh you said the following. And I just try to answer simply to questions that are clear and pointed and directed and limited in their scope.
Is that what she`s trying to do whether she keeps sort of feeding back to the attorneys? I`m not sure the language is right. I don`t really understand you?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I`m sure you`re amazing on the stand, Dr. Drew. And I think she was pretty good, too. The problem is that we lawyers and you doctors speak two different languages.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s right.
BLOOM: I speak law. You speak medicine.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: So, I`m trying to wedge you into something that`s helpful to my case. You don`t want to go there because you`re an M.D. and you know more about medicine than I do, but I know more about the courtroom and the court rules than you do.
And that`s the whole battle that we see today, it`s really a battle between the law and psychology.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re absolutely, Lisa.
Cheryl, come join me on my side of the fence here with these attorneys, because it is really, it`s difficult because you want to be exquisitely accurate in your answers, don`t you?
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I join you in thinking I`m sure you`re excellent on the stand, Dr. Drew. And I have to say that I think that Mark`s right. That this psychologist is doing a fabulous job and Lisa`s right that they really are two totally different perspectives.
And when we try to play lawyer against a lawyer, we`re going to lose. But if we keep clear and get specific, I think because we want to be really precise as people in the medical or psychological profession, it`s a dance. And it`s a very tricky dance, and I think she`s doing really well.
PINSKY: There you go. Now, thank you, guys. Now, reminder to like us on Facebook. And you`ll be pushing us over the 100,000 mark tonight. Not referring to my mark, I mean, the mark of 100,000. Just saying.
Next up -- thanks, Mark. Right. It`s true.
All right. Next up, Jodi in denial. How candidate how did the police finally get her to give them something of a confession. The behavior bureau sounds off.
And later, a telling tale from Jodi`s past. Did it signal bigger problems to come?
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INVESTIGATOR: You act just like everybody else who I accuse of doing a crime -- who did it. There`s no other way to tell you.
ARIAS: Is it because I`m not crying?
INVESTIGATOR: No, it`s not because of that.
ARIAS: What is it? I mean, I`m not going to change how I act.
(CRYING)
INVESTIGATOR: I think you`re feeling the reality in the moment now.
ARIAS: There`s just no reason I would ever want to hurt him.
INVESTIGATOR: I don`t think you wanted to. I really don`t think you wanted to. You don`t look like the person that would plan something like this. You`re just not that person. I can believe other thing, but not that.
ARIAS: Part of me want does cop-out and say it.
INVESTIGATOR: No.
ARIAS: Well --
INVESTIGATOR: If you`re going to cop-out, it`s because you`re telling the truth.
ARIAS: Well, that`s not really copping out.
INVESTIGATOR: Yes. I don`t want you to sit here and tell me a lie to appease me. That is the worst thing you can do for me. But back there in that mind of yours is somebody screaming to get out and tell me what happened. But you just cannot. I need a story, or else it`s just cold. It`s so cold.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. And we`re going to explore the tales of the tape.
Teresa Strasser, my co-host joins me again.
Teresa, you`ve now looked at these tapes for a couple of days. What stands out for you in that particular tape? Oh, Teresa --
TERESA STRASSER, CO-HOST: Well, as you mentioned yesterday, there`s a couple kinds of crying. There`s the kind of crying you do when you put down your beloved dog. And then there`s the kind of crying when Johnny Law pulls you over and you`re trying to get out of the ticket?
PINSKY: Right, right.
STRASSER: This seems like the latter.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you.
Joining me to discuss, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Dr. Drew juror, Katie Wick, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of the "30-Day Love Detox," and our human lie detector Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".
All right. Janine, I will go with you first because you have worked with the CIA and the FBI and a heck of a lot of liars. What`s your reaction, I`m going to ask you two things. What`s your reaction to the strategy detective Flores is deploying here, which I hear -- I feel something in you dying to come out -- versus some other strategy you would recommend.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: I love detective Flores. Love him. If I was giving him a grade I would give limb an A-plus.
I met him at the courthouse. I gave him a hug. I just love him. He`s a textbook perfect interviewer, interrogator.
Why? If you come in that with that good cop/bad cop mentality, Dr. Drew, we don`t know if she`s exhibiting anxiety because you`re being intense or stressing her out or because there`s deception. He comes across as your friend.
I say he`s giving her a bite of the apple. He`s giving her a chance to explain why she did what she did, so she doesn`t look like a vicious, mean, evil person. I mean, he`s amazing, amazing, 100 percent awesome.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I want to go to you. I think, though, with her borderline features, there may be a more sophisticated way to go about this. I agree with Janine that by not becoming aggressive, she didn`t become defensive. But sort of telling her the story of, oh, there`s something dying to come out, I think that misses that point completely of her borderline?
ARUTT: Do you think so? Because I think when we think of borderlines as splitting, and that there are these opposites and different parts inside them, I thought he did a really good job of aligning with and recognizing the split inside her between the part that wanted to keep it a secret and the part that wanted to get it out.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.
Wendy, do you agree that?
WENDY WALSH, AUTHOR: Well, I think not only the split inside herself, but the split that he may know that she projects onto other people. So, in other words, with a borderline, it`s all black or all white, it`s all love or all hate. He`s got to sort of win her over as her lover, if you will.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: She`s got to fall in love with him in order to come out.
PINSKY: So, let`s clarify that for people at home. Again, you hear a lot of this term borderline. And it`s certain personality style. It`s relatively common these days, not a full-blown disorder like Jodi, but people who think black and white. They flip and flop emotionally.
And they have real difficulty in relationships where things become too intense, and too porous, they can`t figure out who is self and where they end and the other begins. I think he could have done something a little more tricky. You could just gone -- sat back and -- I`m wondering -- more wonderment I think would have been more helpful. He doesn`t really do much wonderment.
Go ahead -- Janine.
DRIVER: Dr. Drew, one of the things, if I was a supervisor in law enforcement, one of the things I would say to a cop, I mean, I would say to the police officer is this -- this person who has committed a crime, think are dying to tell somebody. They can`t tell anyone. Your job is to be their best friend. They are going to tell you. You`re going to walk out of there, they are going to tell you.
And so, you send a police officer this mentality. This person has created something. They`re so isolated. They`ve done something. They want to get it off their chest.
You`re their friend, you`re going to get them to tell you. And you use different strategies.
This is one clip of detective Flores` strategy.
PINSKY: Yes.
DRIVER: He`s done a lot. He uses what`s called embedded commands. He said something along the lines, whether you tell me the truth or don`t tell me the truth. He`s projecting into her brain, tell me the truth. Tell me the truth.
I think he does a great job with many strategies.
PINSKY: Interesting. Anybody else -- go ahead, Cheryl? Yes?
ARUTT: One thing that I just really wanted to say. A lot of people have been tweeting to me, saying, will you please make sure on the show to clarify that the vast majority of people who are borderline do not commit anything like Jodi Arias did. Even people who are sociopaths don`t do that.
PINSKY: Listen, most borderline and sociopaths are not criminals, that`s why I like working with them. They have trouble interpersonally. They`re their own worst enemy many times. They create chaos and pain for themselves and everybody, but they don`t harm people and certainly not in a premeditated way. Would you agree, Cheryl?
ARUTT: Absolutely, I would agree. Thank you for clarifying that.
WALSH: But, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Wendy?
WALSH: I do want to add that they`re prone to hurting themselves.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: Eight percent of borderlines commit suicide. So, 8 percent is much higher than the regular population.
And there are also different kinds of borderline. And I think Jodi exhibits the features of what I would call a borderline dependent personality.
So the reason why it works so great with this investigator is because rather than appealing to her narcissism like I`ll be your audience, tell me a story, you really did, right? Show me the amazing things you did. He more appealed to the kind of I`m your buddy. You can lean on me. It`s going to be OK -- because clearly she was addicted to Travis. She was really dependent on him for her feelings.
PINSKY: Yes, interesting.
Katie, I want to go to you. Has Jodi`s lying and deception worked in keeping some of the information from the jury? In other words, we sort of think there`s a cunning -- we definitely -- there`s a cunning side to Jodi. I wonder in the fact that she has stonewalled so much in the investigation and come up with so much nonsense that it`s actually worked because some stuff has been inadmissible and the jury hasn`t heard about it.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JURY: Yes. And, Dr. Drew, it`s frustrating for those of us who sit on the outside that are seeing the media and see what`s going on. But I was so happy today when the prosecution got this information in about the engagement ring, when they got the information about her taking a flight home from the memorial service, who does that and is trying to hook up and get some guy`s phone number after you just attended your ex-lover`s memorial service and her basically like playing hide-and-seek under a Christmas tree, for God`s sake.
PINSKY: Yes.
WICK: These little tidbits of information of her stalking are coming out and it`s great.
PINSKY: And those of you that are clinician, shake your head if you agreeing with me, if you do, in fact, agree, that one piece of information that she was able to get in today about the devaluation of somebody she claimed to love.
First, he`s the most amazing, wonderful person in the world, now he`s crap. I don`t care about him any more. I`m going to go have sex with somebody else. Good riddance. They will devalue and hate and just want to be done with.
Yes, you guys?
WALSH: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: And I think she also self-medicates with sex. So whatever was going on with her she needed another sexual partner for her high.
PINSKY: Interesting.
All right. Next up, Jodi and there`s some history of inappropriate behaviors during her teen years. Question is, was that really an issue? We`re going to hear what the mom told police.
And later, we will grade witness Janine DeMarte. She have`s being grilled all day and the question is, how do we grade her?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JODI`S MOM: The only time we ever searched the room was when she was in 8th grade. And she was -- we lived in Santa Maria and she was growing pot. And we were getting ready to move and couldn`t find my Tupperware container.
She had them on the roof, growing pot on the roof with her friends. And so we called the police and turned her in and wanted something done to scare her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host Teresa Strasser.
I want to talk about, guys, what to do or what it means if an adolescent is behaving badly versus how do you tell whether or not that child has real bona fide mental illness? But before I do, I want to go to Janine and ask her, what do you make of the body posture and the testimony or, I guess, the interrogation tape we just saw?
Because it seems the mother is so much more genuine than Jodi.
DRIVER: Right. And you see that relax posture. She`s not overselling. I often talk her, Dr. Drew, about convince not convey.
Truthful people just convey information. It`s coming off easy. We believe her. It`s really smooth.
Where Jodi Arias is coming out, and what is she saying? She`s saying quote, why would I ever want to hurt him? Why would I ever want to hurt him? Instead of staying Travis, she doesn`t say his name, why would I ever want to hurt him?
Let`s chat and sit down. I just did an embezzlement case, I just came back from New York City, my team and I. Someone embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And the person who did it, the person I busted, this is what she kept saying, why would I need to steal the money?
If you look at that statement, what`s the statement? I need to steal the money. Statement analysis, which is created by Mark McGlitch (ph) -- statement analysis says take the words off the beginning, listen to what Jodi is actually saying. She`s saying, why would I ever want to hurt him? I want to hurt him. I would ever want to hurt him.
Very suspicious compared to this person.
PINSKY: Yes, the mom who`s confused and disorganized and in grief and, you know, sort of really genuinely surprised by what the situation is.
But the other thing I wish you guys would show a different footage. I would love to see the footage without the voice of her sitting with the interrogator where she`s like flopping over the table and her hair is over. It`s very dramatic. Dramatic is the thing.
So, there`s two things we`ve heard from borderlines -- very dramatic and the other thing is idealizing and devaluing. And the other thing is fear of abandonment.
All right. Cherly, let`s go back to the question about young people. We`re talking about a borderline case in this situation. How does a parent tell whether it`s a kid just misbehaving versus somebody who really needs professional help?
ARUTT: One of the things about personality disorders is that we don`t diagnose those until people are a little older. We don`t diagnose them until someone is over 17 or so --
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you, Cheryl, and just say, the reason be being is because many adolescents behave as though they had personality disorders.
ARUTT: Right.
PINSKY: And that`s what makes it difficult for parents. How do we help him distinguish?
ARUTT: Well, you know, it makes me think about -- I used to do evaluations when someone was more sick or ill than bad, we`d go in and explain what was going on psychologically and get them sentenced to treatment. I think the key here really is, does somebody feel guilt? Somebody genuinely want to connect with other people?
And if they`re having difficulty and they`re young, there`s so much opportunity to help them.
PINSKY: Right.
ARUTT: So I would go with let`s give treatment first and not jump to the conclusion that someone is more bad, and see if that works.
PINSKY: Don`t go it alone.
Wendy, do you agree with that?
WALSH: Yes. And I want to make a distinction, we`re talking about personality disorders and those are very different from mood disorders or developmental disorders.
PINSKY: Right.
WALSH: So, children might be diagnosed --
PINSKY: Or thought disorders.
WALSH: Right. So, children might be diagnosed if they, you have, have autism or down syndrome or learning disorders or attention deficit disorders. That`s very different than a full-blown personality the disorder.
PINSKY: Right. So, treating mood issues is one thing with teenagers, but you know, as Oscar Wilde once said, children are curly dimpled lunatics.
(LAUGHTER)
WALSH: And we have to accept that.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: With a better prognosis than an adult.
PINSKY: With a better prognosis, but Teresa, the thing about adolescents are is they don`t tell you I`m sad, I`m anxious. They act in. They have eating disorders. They cut themselves. The brood (ph) or they act out. They engage in truancy, in sex, in drug use. How do we help -- and that stuff goes down as all kids will be kids. How do we help parents understand that this is really pathology?
TERESA STRASSER, TV PERSONALITY: Right. Well, can I jump in with a question here. Yes. I have a three-and-a-half-year-old and he is a lunatic --
(LAUGHTER)
STRASSER: My question is, how does a borderline personality process fear? Because to me, the central question, the only question in this case, was Jodi Arias afraid the day she killed him? Now, if Boo Radley lives down the corner from me, I run pass his house and hold my breath. I don`t invite myself over for sex. I`m scared of him. I avoid him.
PINSKY: All right. I`ll let Cheryl and Wendy answer that. When she is afraid, she`s sort of out of her body and she may actually experience range more than fear. Cheryl, what do you say?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, I think that`s right. I think that`s so fascinating, though, that you ask that because these kinds of borderline dynamics happen when there`s a real disruption in 18 months to three years of age.
That that`s a developmental period that your son is going through and has been going through where if he knows enough that you`re there to help sort of contain him and be there for him and he may go off and explore and then come back and fill up connecting with you, that`s something that helps somebody not have these kinds of problems later on.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, I`ve got a question for you.
PINSKY: Please, go ahead.
WALSH: You mentioned that you believe that borderline is increasing in our population.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: I know you and I share our love of attachment theory.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: And now, I`m hearing that this rupture at 18 months to three years is a really vulnerable time for borderline personality disorders. Do you think all these working parents and absentee parents with less than 25 percent of American school children have one stay at home parent?
PINSKY: That`s a really dicey question. I`m not yet -- Teresa is hiding her face. I`m not going to go --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Let me just say, though, the point you bring up is --
STRASSER: Wait, what is attachment theory?
PINSKY: It`s the ability -- the kind of union we form with our early parental relationships. Let me just say this, between our genetic makeup and the eventual stressors of the world in which we live, between the genetics and the environment is attachment. Attachment can be a very protective phenomenon.
If we are securely attached, we can flexibly respond to a lot of things. That if we`re not securely attached, our liabilities emerge. Katie, you`re the one who spends all the time in front of Jodi. Does this all make sense to you? We`re starting to talk about some very serious clinical things and I wonder if people are getting frustrated with all of that.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I don`t think so, Dr. Drew. Well, it`s fascinating for me, because looking at her, I just kind of look at her, I don`t want to say just an average person, but it was really fascinating today because we heard the witness kind of talk about how Jodi, talking about behavior, how she kind of conforms and changes who she is depending on who she`s with, for example, becoming a Mormon because Travis was a Mormon.
Getting a breast augmentation because her ex-boyfriend`s wife had a breast augmentation. And, I always said -- I thought that, yes, she dyed her hair not to be noticed, but on the other hand, Dr. Drew, I always thought to myself she dyed her hair brown. Who had brown hair? Mimi Hal (ph). And perhaps, she did that to kind of conform to Mimi Hall (ph) --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let me just say, Wendy --
JANEEN DRIVER, AUTHOR, "YOU CAN`T LIKE TO ME": Katie, I love you, Katie. You`re so smart.
(LAUGHTER)
WICK: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Wendy and Cheryl and I have been saying this about Jodi since day one. That she has a poor sense of self, that she`s chameleon like. We keep hearing this emptiness. This is all stuff we`ve been chanting about. What I find fascinating is that, now, ladies, it`s starting to come back at us. My producer`s using this language.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Katie`s using this language. The courtroom is using this language. I think maybe it will elevate the sort of conversation about these really serious disorders. The thing I don`t want the viewers to get frustrated about, though, it doesn`t excuse the behavior. She should have gotten help a long time ago.
Once you get to this point, it`s on her for not have gotten help, on the parents too, for not having gotten her some help long time ago. OK, ladies, I got to stop here. Next up -- we got to stop.
Is the prosecution`s witness too defensive? We`re going to give Janeen Demarte a grade. Our panel will.
And later Drew`s views, I`ll continue answering questions about this trial. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think you are an expert in domestic violence. Is that where we`re going?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have a lot of experience in domestic violence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, yesterday you were not an expert in domestic violence, but now, today, you are.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just gave you an example of why I said that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Mr. Alexander made comments about being afraid of Ms. Arias, right? Wouldn`t you want to understand and put those words in context?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would I look at it in context? Yes, i would look at it in context.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. And you would want to look at then behaviors and investigate maybe whether or not there`s any true meaning behind these words, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t do that because he`s not alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, when somebody`s not alive, you can`t get any information from them. Is that what you mean?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From them directly? That`s correct because they`re not alive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: All right. Now, welcome back. Thank you, guys. We`ve just now passed the 100,000 likes on Facebook. Thank you to our viewers for that. And it is time now for our report card. Teresa Strasser, my co-host, joins me. Handing out the grades, Mark Eiglarsh, Lisa Bloom, Janeen Driver, and Dr. Bill Lloyd. And Mark, I believe you called Dr. Lloyd the knife, Dr. Knife?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. Why not? He loves it.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: He`s empty-handed tonight.
EIGLARSH: What? (LAUGHTER)
EIGLARSH: Where`s his prop?
PINSKY: All right. We are grading expert witness, Janeen Demarte (ph), who went toe-to-toe with Jodi`s attorney, Jennifer Wilmot. I want everyone to hold the grades until the end, but I want your commentary to start with Mark. How do you think she did?
EIGLARSH: I thought she did a wonderful job. She`s intelligent. She`s extremely detailed. She`s very, very prepared. She also, I love to see a witness agree with the person who`s cross examining them when they have to, when it`s a softball, obvious question. Overall, I think she did great.
The one thing that I would say to take off a little bit for, and that`s not in her control, is that some jurors may want to hear the same information delivered the same way, but from someone from decades of experience. That`s the only thing.
PINSKY: Right. That`s interesting. Teresa, I want to get your comment on that, whether somebody with more experience might be more appealing to the jury.
STRASSER: Yes. She does come across a little green. I mean, to me, there`s content and there`s delivery. Her content has been very cogent. But, I mean, to be or not to be is a beautiful soliloquy (INAUDIBLE). If I`m doing it, you`re just going to want to give me a water and a tranquilizer, because on a global stage, I would also unravel.
PINSKY: Dr. Bill Lloyd, tell me what you think.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: She could have done a whole lot better. What I`m saying is, as a volleyball player, she spent too much time close to the net. She was in defensive mode when she was be being questioned by the defense attorney. She was very leery that she was going to be lured into a trap.
She could have been more direct, more professional, answer the questions quickly. Basically, she could have grown a pair. Let me ask Mark about this, an expert with this, that there`s a difference --
DRIVER: Wow!
LLOYD: She`s not a hired gun. She`s not an advocate. Mark, she`s an officer of the court. Tell us what that means.
EIGLARSH: Well, i don`t know about your reference about growing a pair. But an officer of the court she`s not an officer of the court. She`s a hired witness by the prosecution, supposed to give an objective viewpoint based upon her investigation and her knowledge. I don`t know about an officer of the court.
PINSKY: Lisa, clarify that all for me.
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: She`s not supposed to be -- she`s not supposed to be an advocate. I think that`s what he means. And that`s true.
PINSKY: How do you feel about her performance?
EIGLARSH: Correct. Correct.
BLOOM: So, I care mostly about content. And as far as that goes, she`s a homerun. She`s a breath of fresh air. Of course, Jodi Arias is not a battered woman. Of course, she`s got a borderline personality disorder. She`s not a domestic violence victim. Thank goodness somebody is finally saying that in the courtroom.
She`s unflappable, she`s calm, she`s cool, she`s collected on the stand. So, I think she`s good. You know, is she a knock out? Is she a homerun? No. But she`s pretty darn good.
PINSKY: Lisa, you`re suddenly speaking my clinical language. Janeen, wrap it up for us.
DRIVER: I love her. I think she`s poised. You know, my two sons -- I`m pregnant with a little boy in here. I said they`re going to need therapy someday having a mother who`s human lie detector. I would send them to her. I think she`s unbiased. I think Dr. Janeen here, I think that as well, when she was answering the questions from the jury, that`s when I really fell in love with her.
We saw her thumbs go up, which is a define gravity move as we know, Dr. Drew. When she`s answering, it was her way of saying I`m so glad the jury`s asking these questioning. She got to get the information out. I absolutely -- I love her. I think she`s poised. And I don`t think she`s defensive.
She`s not coming at us like this attacking like we saw with the defense`s witness. Mr. Martinez, would you like me to answer the question, Mr. Martinez.
PINSKY: Right.
DRIVER: I think she`s sophisticated and poised.
PINSKY: Interesting. Let`s give the grades. Mark, your grade for Janeen Demarte (ph).
EIGLARSH: I feel very comfortable giving her a solid B+.
PINSKY: Janeen, let`s see that grade up there. Janeen, what is your grade for clinical psychologist, Janeen Demarte (ph)?
DRIVER: I give her an A-, and I`d give her an A if I didn`t see a little stress with her lips disappearing on cross.
PINSKY: Oh, Teresa, your grade.
STRASSER: Sorry. She was a little cold and clinical. So, I`m going to --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
STRASSER: Oh, sorry.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Do it.
STRASSER: She was little cool than clinical. So, I`m going to have to grow a pair and give her a C.
PINSKY: Wow. That is --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough, Teresa. And Bill Lloyd, your grade for Janeen Demarte (ph).
LLOYD: Yes, Drew. She needs to make more spike. She needs to score more points and be as clear with the defense as she is with the prosecution. She gets a B.
PINSKY: More on the offense for the young volleyball player. And then, finally, Lisa, what do you got?
BLOOM: I give her a B. A "B" is good. I think she could have a little bit better communication style. Really hit her points home. But she`s good. And that`s a B.
PINSKY: All right. Her total GPA is a 3.2. So, that`s a high B everybody. She`s just on the verge of a B+. I think she`s capable of an A-. So, I expect to see some improvement from her. Thank you, guys,
Next up. The jurors, my jurors, have seen virtually everyday of this trial. What do they make of Janeen Demarte (ph) and her battles with Jodi`s attorney? Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for Drew`s jurors. Teresa Strasser, my co-host, joins me. And joining us, Katie Wick, and newcomer to our jury, Angie May. Angie is a flight attendant and a mother of six. Both women have been at the trial almost every day. Katie, I`m going to go to you first. You`re our go to on this. Janeen Demarte says Jodi is an immature sort of teenager with identity issues. Did that register with the jury?
WICK: I think it did a hundred percent. And I would not be surprised, Dr. Drew, if her defense attorneys told her to stop coloring or drawing or whatever she did. She didn`t do that today. She sat there, and she looked at Demarte talking. She didn`t talk as much to Jennifer. Her whole demeanor was different today except on some of the jury questions we saw her lean in and kind of talk to her. But I think it`s resonating with the jury her immaturity and I sensed a little bit of sarcasm in a couple of the questions.
PINSKY: And Teresa, I want you to think of a question for our juror while I`m talking to Angie. Angie, the first time we`ve spoken to you, and I`m always curious. Your six children are motherless now while you hang out in a courtroom. What motivates the fascination with this case?
ANGIE MAY, DR. DREW "JUROR": I just, I followed it for the -- since January. And I`m, feel like I`m invested. They`re ready for it to be over.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Are you like everyone else that sort of had -- your opinions different, say, than any one else such as Katie?
MAY: No. I think Katie and I share similar opinions.
PINSKY: OK. Teresa.
WICK: The sort of --
STRASSER: Oh, sorry, Katie. Angie, if I may jump in -- I have to go back to a previous point. As a fellow working mom, we can form secure attachments with our children and they`re not going to end up in juvie (ph), thank you very much. Here`s my question for you. I was on the internet, and it`s a very, very scary place for many reasons. However, I found there are a lot of team Jodi types. And I wonder if in and around the courthouse you meet any of these team Jodi types.
PINSKY: Interesting.
MAY: Ooh, I have not met any team Jodi types at the courthouse at all. Nobody.
WICK: It`s funny because a few weeks ago -- oh, I`m sorry.
PINSKY: Tell me that story then we`ve got to go, Katie. Let`s go.
WICK: No. I was just going to say, a few weeks ago, there was a gal there and she`s very much for Jodi, but it`s funny, they do not want to talk to the media, I`m finding, which I understand. But most of them, they`re not -- they support her, but they`re not going to go out there and really talk.
PINSKY: Thank you, ladies. Angie, thank you for joining us. Be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s views where my panel comes at me like I`m an expert on the stand. Mark Eiglarsh, we`re going out to you first.
EIGLARSH: Hippocampus.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Apparently, I didn`t know what the heck that was before this trial, but they`re talking a lot about it. It apparently comes from the Latin word sea horse, because apparently, it looks like a sea horse. I digress.
PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: Yes, apparently. In today`s trial, we learned a lot, that apparently, and the defense expert -- state expert agreed with this, that the hippocampus during fighter flight gets flooded and then certain memories don`t get encoded.
PINSKY: Right.
EIGLARSH: And then that affects the long-term memory.
PINSKY: Correct.
EIGLARSH: Is that going to help Jodi explain why she`s got this foggy fog? Are you buying into it?
PINSKY: No, I`m not. That is just a reworking of the material that Dr. Samuels went through. It`s just talking about the biology of it. And believe me, that is a grow test go oversimplification of how complex memory is. The hippocampus just works on helping file the memories into long term. And there are so much more that determines whether or not something goes from a short-term to a long term memory.
Dr. Lloyd, what do you got for me?
LLOYD: Yes. My question goes back to the fighter flight as well and that flooded hippocampus, and the defense is using that as an explanation why Jodi can`t remember anything. But at the same time, at the same time, after the murder, what does she do? She cleans up the house. She mops the floor. She does a load of laundry. Then, she starts emptying all the photos and the camera. That doesn`t sound like somebody who`s fight or flight. What do you think?
PINSKY: I completely agree. And, Dr. Lloyd and Mark, I`m going to float another theory. She was in fight or flight for a few seconds, and then, she went into parasympathetic shutdown, and in shutdown, the brain floods with opioids and cortisole and she goes into dissociative state and maybe rage emerges. And maybe she doesn`t know what she`s doing. Maybe it`s a little foggy, maybe that gives her some trouble with laying down long-term memory, but it`s conveniently thick, fog.
PINSKY: Lisa Bloom, what do you got?
BLOOM: So, Dr. Drew, this is the question that keeps me up at night about this case. We know that domestic violence victims do keep it a secret, do cover up domestic violence.
PINSKY: Yes.
BLOOM: How do we know if she really is or is not a domestic violence victim?
PINSKY: It really is a function of the evidence. And for some case, this case, Mark, you`ll love me saying this, does not focus on the evidence. It really never does. It gets in all sort of theoretical aspects of what this woman did and did not do.
It`s sad if she had a borderline disorder and didn`t get treatment and progressed to the point that she killed somebody. That`s sad. Once she did that, too bad. It`s now time for you, guys, you legal experts, to take over. The last call is next. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We`re going to keep Drew`s views going for the last call with Teresa. Your question, Teresa. You`ve got the last call. Go ahead. What is it?
STRASSER: There`s been a lot of talk about name-calling, derogatory words, slut, whore, the thing the about the three orifices that I don`t even want to say. OK. So, perhaps, there was some character assassination, but then, there was assassination assassination and my question is, why is this name-calling relevant and does it lead to violence?
PINSKY: No. It doesn`t necessarily lead to violence. It`s not healthy. It`s not appropriate. It is aggressive. It shows how chaotic and dysfunctional their relationship became, but as you heard in court today, it was in response to particular stressors. When he was really stressed out, when she was being untruthful and wasn`t listening to him and he couldn`t get through to her, people get very aggressive.
Thank you, Teresa Strasser, for joining me. Thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time. Reminder that "HLN After Dark" begins right now.
END
