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Resolved to Run; No Charges Today for Suspect; Bombing Suspect had Video of Jihadist; Healing Mass in Boston; Questions on FBI's Role; Suspect #2 to be Charged; Lingzi Lu Remembered

Aired April 21, 2013 - 19:00   ET


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Where were you when you heard about it?

BILL RODGERS, FOUR-TIME BOSTON MARATHON WINNER: I was actually at home with my girlfriend, Karen. We had gone for a run. But my daughter and my brother were out here near where the bombing was. So I was a bit nervous until I knew they were safe.

LEMON: What did you think?

RODGERS: I didn't know what to think. I was in a state of shock and you know, I've seen some political protests, you know, the Olympic games, even here at Boston, some other places but because it's a place where the world comes together. But in the spirit of the Olympic Games, that's what where the healing comes from, I think.


RODGERS: Because all nations have runners. Every major city in the world has a marathon. And people meet each other. And then you start thinking differently about life. A little bit.

LEMON: Yes, yes. Thank you. And you make us know that Boston is going to be ok. You're going to thrive.

RODGERS: I'm going to try.

LEMON: Thank you, Bill Rodgers. And your health is fine now.

RODGERS: Thank you. I'm doing ok.

LEMON: You're doing great. You said you're just slower now.

RODGERS: Very slower.

LEMON: You look great. Thank you. Bill Rodgers.

RODGERS: Oh yes thanks.

LEMON: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Good evening everyone. I am Don Lemon live from Boston.

The very latest now on the bombings investigation to tell you about -- a federal law official tells CNN that investigators believe the Tsarnaev brothers purchased their bomb components locally but that their guns came from somewhere else. Gun tracing efforts we are told are still under way.

The Justice Department says no federal charges will be filed today against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the Boston attacks. When the charges are filed a Justice Department official says Tsarnaev could be charged with both federal terrorism charges and state murder charges.

Tsarnaev is still listed in serious but stable condition and is unable to speak. And we continue to learn more about Tsarnaev's brother, Tamerlan, who died in Friday's shootout. Last year, he created a YouTube channel with links to videos by Chechnyan radicals like this one seen here.

And then earlier today here in Boston, worshippers at New England's largest Catholic Church gathered to remember those killed at the Boston marathon and its violent aftermath. Four large photos of the victims were prominently displayed behind four lit candles. At last check, 54 of the bombing victims are still in the hospital.

Let's get the very latest on the bombing investigation now. We have new details about the materials used to build those bombs and some fresh information about the Tsarnaev family that is very high interest, very high interest to police this evening.

I want to bring in CNN's Brian Todd. He is in Copley Square. And Brian, you're just a few yards from where those bombs exploded. And that's attracting a lot of attention and a lot of foot traffic right now. We were told earlier that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev might be formally charged today. That's not the case. So when is it?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don it could come in the next couple of days. But we have to emphasize you know some of the things you reported just a moment ago. He is under sedation. He is intubated right now. He is unable to communicate verbally. He's in the intensive care unit of Beth Israel Hospital here.

Our Susan Candiotti citing a law enforcement official with knowledge of the case, saying that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was shot in the side of the neck -- unclear whether that came during Friday night's takedown of him when he was captured or that shootout the he and his brother had Thursday night into Friday morning with police in the streets of Watertown.

But right now no charges were filed today. We heard rumblings there may be charges filed today ended up not being the case, Don maybe in the next couple of days.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about the bombs. You have learned something new, something about where they came from, Brian.

TODD: That's right. Our Susan Candiotti citing a law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation says that the current thinking right now, Don, is that the two suspects bought the bomb components locally -- somewhere here in the Boston area -- b But that they got the guns from somewhere else.

This official emphasizing that the gun traces are under way right now. And so that part of the investigation is continuing. But they say they bought the bomb components, the current thinking is that they bought the bomb components somewhere around here in the Boston area.

LEMON: Brian, also, you know, you're getting more information about the family dynamic in Cambridge. Can you tell us about that?

TODD: I can, Don. I spoke to neighbors today on their -- right by their place in Norfolk street in Cambridge. They have a -- they had a small apartment in a three-story walk up in Cambridge. One of the neighbors who did not want to give his name, did not want to go on camera, told me that at one time up until about three years ago the entire family lived together in that one apartment. The parents, the two brothers, the sisters, Tamerlan Tsarnaev's wife and their young child all lived together in this small apartment in a three-story walk up in Cambridge.

And we were outside there today. I can tell you it certainly doesn't seem like a very big apartment. This neighbor said that during that time he observed tension in the family. At one time he said he saw Tamerlan Tsarnaev yelling at a woman outside the apartment, a woman who was not his wife and that there was tension in the family. That was up until about three years ago he says when the parents and the sisters moved out. He said after that, the tension seemed to dissipate a little bit -- Don.

LEMON: You're right in Copley Square not far from where we are, Brian. How much longer will the site of the explosions --


TODD: Right.

LEMON: -- be closed?

TODD: Well, what we're getting from local law enforcement is that they're going to institute a five-phase plan pretty much, you know, in the coming hours to gradually re-open Copley Square and that area of the finish line where the blasts occurred.

The police commissioner of Boston, Ed Davis, said that FBI officials may release that scene sometime in the next couple of days. We are not very far away from it, a big crowd being gathered here today most of the day. So you may see some of this traffic, just you know, continuing to be open. Some of the areas around Copley Square open in the next couple days.

LEMON: All right Brian Todd. Brian, thank you very much.

Brian mentioned the police commissioner. We're going to talk a little more about that. Because a little while ago I spoke at length with Boston's Police Commissioner Ed Davis. He told me all the places in this manhunt and chase are all still very active crime scenes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) EDWARD DAVIS, COMMISSIONER, BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: The teams that are picking up evidence there have collected over 200 rounds of ammunition that have been expended. We don't know how many of those were from the suspects, how many were from police. We are clearly looking at explosives that were thrown. And I -- I personally saw the remnants of exploded bombs as well as unexploded ordnance that was on the ground that we were stepping over actually while we are responding to the scene.

So that was a very dangerous situation for everybody involved and -- and right now it's all part of the ongoing investigation.

LEMON: Are you confident that these two were acting alone and that there are no more suspects out there?

DAVIS: I'm confident that they were the two major actors in the violence that occurred. I am very, very sure that during this thorough investigation, we'll get to the bottom of the whole plot and that's all I can say right now. I told the people of Boston that they can rest easily, that the two people who were committing these vicious attacks are either dead or arrested and I still believe that.


LEMON: Boston Police Commissioner Edward Davis.

Make sure you stay right there because in a few minutes, more of my conversation with the Commissioner. He'll take us step by step through that fateful night -- the senseless killing of a police officer, the chase, the manhunt, and finally the arrest of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Lots to talk about today about the way the FBI first handle the case of Tamerlan Tsarnaev and as we have reported, FBI agents interviewed Tsarnaev back in 2011 at the request of the Russian government. The Russians believed he was a follower of radical Islam. He was also interviewed but no action was taken and there was also no FBI follow- up after he took an extended trip to Russia last year.

Today on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" Senator Lindsey Graham said there were plenty of clues that Tsarnaev had been radicalized.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The ball was dropped in one of two ways. The FBI missed a lot of things, is one potential answer. Or our laws do not allow the FBI to follow-up in a sound, solid way.

There was a lot to be learned from this guy. He was on Web sites talking about killing Americans. He went overseas, as Chuck indicated. He was clearly talking about radical ideas. He was visiting radical areas.

It's people like this that you don't want to let out of your sight. And this was a mistake. I don't know if our laws are insufficient or the FBI failed, but we're at war with radical Islamists and we need to up our game. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee is also weighing in on this topic. He told our Candy Crowley that Tamerlan Tsarnaev received what he called training while in Russia and he -- he thinks Tsarnaev made more than one trip to the region.

We are learning more about the suspects from the Russian Republic of Dagestan where they once lived. And CNN can exclusively reveal alleged Boston bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the older brother, had video of jihadists on his YouTube channel.

Let's check in now with CNN's Phil Black he is in Moscow. So Phil, what do you know about this video?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Don, when you look at that YouTube page, you see there is a subheading there called "terrorists". And there were two links there to separate videos. CNN has tracked one of them down. And it features a Dagestani militant leader, named Abu Dujan a man who is known on the Internet to call young Muslims to engage in violent jihad.

Now, that video in and of itself shows that Tsarnaev had an interest in this man. But there's another possible geographic link as well because Abu Dujan was killed by Russian security forces in the capital of Dagestan in December 2012 just months after Tsarnaev was in the same region, the same city, visiting his family.

So he was there at the same time, but it is not known precisely if these two men could have come into contact with each other. But it raises an intriguing line of investigation -- Don.

LEMON: All right. What do we know about his time in Russia, Phil?

BLACK: Yes very little at the moment. We know there was a six-month period between when he flew out, when he flew in and when he flew out -- sorry -- in the first half of last year. As I say, we do not know if he came specifically into contact with this man who he was clearly interested in. But we also don't know who he met, where he went, what he got up to, precisely what his experiences were.

But it raises the question, could they have possibly in some way influenced his radicalization and ultimately contributed to those events in Boston -- Don.

LEMON: Phil, what -- what about the Russian government? Do we know if they are working with U.S. authorities now?

BLACK: We know the Russian and U.S. presidents have spoken to each other just over the last few days but there is that other intriguing Russian link. We know that Russia asked the FBI to investigate Tamerlan Tsarnaev in 2011. The information that was apparently provided by the Russians was said to be vague and nonspecific and that is why ultimately the investigation didn't turn up any credible threat level there at all. But it raises the question, what did the Russians know about this man? Why did he show up on their radar? As a possible threat? And so far, there has been no comment on this from Russian security forces or the government here -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Phil Black in Moscow. Phil, thank you very much.

Up next, paying respects to the victims and grieving over a traumatic week. Residents in Boston returned to church to reflect.

And in the crossfire, a Boston reporter shares his story of being up close and personal with police when they took down the marathon bombing suspect.


LEMON: Worshippers filled New England's largest Roman Catholic Church this morning reflecting on the violence in Boston that began nearly a week ago. Members of law enforcement took part in the service at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross. Four large photos of people who were killed were prominently displayed behind four lit candles. Cardinal O'Malley shared a message of healing saying, "In the midst of the darkness of this tragedy, we turn to the light of Jesus Christ".

Elsewhere, a group of Christian, Jewish and Muslim leaders gathered near the marathon finish line in a show of support. The area remains a barricaded crime scene right now. As police closed in on 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev late Friday night, a suburban Boston street became a war zone.

Reporter Adam Williams with our affiliate WHDH was so close he could smell the gun powder. Here's some of his report now.


ADAM WILLIAMS, WHDH REPORTER: I'm behind the car. I'm hearing multiple gunshots. We're with police right now, and we're -- we're trying to stay back right now, but we are surrounded by police and guns are drawn and we have heard multiple gunshots.

I'm actually standing behind the car right now. It's not a good position to be in. Officers are putting on bulletproof vests. We have police running all guns drawn around me right now. There are probably ten different cruisers and officers getting out of their cars -- guns drawn. They're running all around me right now.

When we pulled up, the car stopped, around me, three cars, I heard probably 28 gunshots and I'm just staying down using the car as shelter. I have never in my life been in a situation like this; when we pulled up, multiple, multiple gunshots. I'm so close where I am that I could smell the gun powder from where we are set up right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move, move, move, move.

WILLIAMS: They -- I believe they have the suspect in custody. I'm going to get down. We have officers right now pointing their guns at somebody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up, back up.

WILLIAMS: They're backing up, though. They're backing up. They're backing up. Everybody is running here. The police are backing up. Ten officers with their guns drawn, but they're backing up and they're running back toward us. We're all taking cover right now behind the different news vehicles. Even the police, though, are taking cover behind their cars. I'm going to run back.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go, go.


LEMON: Still unclear right now, of course, the motive and lingering questions. Were the suspects acting alone, or is there a larger group of terrorists out there that we should fear? We're talking to our security experts about it, next.


LEMON: Take a look at Boston right now live. You see it in the corner, the side of the screen right next to me -- trying to get back to normal after really a week of tragedy, a week of chaos. And the city was shut down for a very long time losing hundreds of millions of dollars -- lots of revenue, lots of tourist dollars.

They're moving as fast as they can to try to get it back to normal. You see investigators there on the scene still combing through evidence. Also still putting away some of the barricades and tearing down some of the things left over from last week's marathon that sadly ended tragically.

We learned a lot over the past week and there's so much that we don't know still. The brother who was killed, Tamerlan Tsarnaev was on authority's radar for a while. What more do we know about him and that?

The FBI investigated Tsarnaev in 2011 at the request of the Russian government. Why didn't they follow up after Tsarnaev went to Russia for six months last year including an extended stay in the Chechen region?

New York Senator Charles Schumer, he wants answers.


SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: There are a lot of questions that had to be answered. This man was pointed out by a foreign government to be dangerous. He was interviewed by the FBI once. What did they find out? What did they miss? Then he went to Russia and to Chechnya. Why wasn't he interviewed when he came back?


LEMON: Also as we reported earlier, house homeland security chairman Michael McCaul says he believes the older brother received training during his trip. Security analyst and former police officer Lou Palumbo is in New York; CNN security analyst Jim Walsh joins me here in a very chilly Boston at this hour.

Gentlemen, we've been talking about this, you know, off and on this evening about the FBI -- whether they dropped the ball and a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on. Lou, to you in New York. It's too soon to tell, but there was certainly -- the FBI will certainly have to answer some questions after the older brother took a trip to Russia and no one really followed up on that, Lou.

LOU PALUMBO, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Yes, I agree with you, Don. I think that there are some questions that need to be answered in the proper forum. I do think that Director Mueller and any of the administrators of the FBI that had knowledge of this heads up that they received from the Russian government, FSB, their intelligence group, they'll have to explain exactly what transpired here and answer as to why they did or why didn't do things.

LEMON: Jim, it is believed and pretty much everyone has said that they think that the brothers acted alone. Is it too soon to tell because considering as much firepower they had and how some people thought they planned this out.


LEMON: Could there be someone else out there?

WALSH: You know, I'm glad you asked that question. I think we have to break it up into two parts. The Boston police commissioner was quite insistent that the Boston piece of this was secure. But they did not expect or anticipate that there might be follow-on problems. That still leaves the rest of the country and potential international contacts.

I guess one of the questions I have that is still a puzzle for me is the explosive component of this. It turns out that they had more explosives than I would have guessed based on the original construction of the bombs that went off. And, you know, if you've never done this before, even if you have an Internet guide, right, there's a difference between having a blueprint and building something.

LEMON: Right.

WALSH: And then building something that's reliable. That's a key word in the military and international security world. Because it's not just if it goes off, you have to be sure it's going to go off when you want it to go off.

LEMON: Right. Just because you read it on the Internet does not make you a proficient person at explosives.

WALSH: Exactly. So it makes me wonder -- one, whether they did test, but they test -- they couldn't have tested in Watertown or Cambridge where I live, right? They would have had to have gone outside of the urban area or they would have been detected. Or, you know, the other possibility is that they received some other sort of support.

LEMON: Other sort of support or when the brother went to Russia.


LEMON: And let's talk more about Russia now. Because Russia warned the U.S., warned the FBI. Do you think Russia now is saying, "Hey, I told you so?" Do you think they're working with the United States now?

WALSH: You know, we -- we really caught a break, believe it or not, in all the coverage of this. There's something else that happened on Marathon Monday. And that was the United States, President Putin, President Obama decided to step back and reset, again, the U.S./Russian relationship. It had been in a spiral over the adoptions, over human rights, over each country barring visitors from this and that was a relationship in trouble.

On the day of the marathon, they agreed to, no, we're going to meet and we're going to upgrade relations. I think we're very lucky on the timing of this. I expect, as part of a broader warming with U.S./Russian relations, that we will get more cooperation, certainly more cooperation than we would have gotten a month ago.

LEMON: All right.

Lou, I want to go back to you and talk about the acting alone part. In the New York area, you know, after 9/11, had lots of experience with this. Just looking -- I know that you're not investigating this particular case, but judging from the outside-in, do you think these brothers acted alone? Do you think there could have been another co- conspirator, so to speak?

PALUMBO: You know, to me, Don, circumstances including the travel dictate the likelihood that they received some support, probably in the form of training for reasons that were just mentioned. I personally, in my opinion, believe that they have some support somewhere. I have a tendency to believe that it definitely occurred in his travels to Chechnya and Russia.

As far as his associations here, I think we're still investigating that. The thing I do want to say, Don, is that if the FBI, for example, is on the trail or senses that there are associations here, they're not likely to divulge that information. Because they're not inclined to tip people off or give them a heads up in the event they're heading in their direction. So, you know, I think you have to let this thing continue to unfold.

LEMON: All right. Lou Palumbo, Jim Walsh, thank you.

WALSH: Thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate you guys.

Next, inside the manhunt for the bombing suspects -- Boston's police commissioner walks us step by step through the final hours.


LEMON: I have a quick update on the Boston bombings investigation. The federal law enforcement official tells CNN investigators believe the Tsarnaev brothers purchased their bomb components somewhere in the Boston area. But their guns, officials believe, were bought somewhere else. Gun tracing efforts, we are told, are under way right now.

The Justice Department did not file charges today against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. When the charges are filed, a Justice Department official says Tsarnaev could be charged with both federal terrorism charges and state murder charges.

We continue to learn more about Tsarnaev's brother, Tamerlan, who died in Friday's shootout. Last year, he created a YouTube channel with links to videos of Chechen radicals like the one you see right here. He created a channel shortly after he returned from an extended trip to Russia. I want to play for you now more of my conversation with Boston Police Commissioner Edward Davis. He walked me through what police know about what happened Friday night and when the Tsarnaev brothers popped up on our surveillance camera and allegedly killed M.I.T. policeman Sean Collier. Take a listen.


COMMISSIONER EDWARD DAVIS, BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: The M.I.T. police officer was killed earlier, a couple hours earlier. More than that. But his death led to them attempting to flee and committing a hijacking. And ultimately that hijacking led us to the vehicle.

LEMON (on camera): As they're going from Cambridge to Watertown, they're throwing IEDs, explosive devices, out of the vehicle?

DAVIS: They were throwing explosive devices at the police. Yes.

LEMON: And so then at that point, they were cornered?

DAVIS: Well, they weren't technically cornered. They aggressively alighted from the car. They stopped their vehicle. The officer had not put his lights on. There was no attempt to stop them at that time. The officer had been ordered to follow them until additional help got there. They were sending for S.W.A.T. resources. They just stopped when they saw the car and attempted to get the officer.

LEMON: That jives up to what one of the witnesses told us, one of the suspect, he saw one of the suspects charge at police and then police took him down and was trying to handcuff him on the ground when the other brother floored the car, the vehicle and then ran over his brother.

DAVIS: That's my understanding. That's the way it worked.

LEMON: So then after that, the other suspect has gone missing. There is a manhunt for him. You're looking everywhere. We saw your officers being bused in by the bus loads. There are tens of bus loads of officers coming in from Boston and from everywhere tactical units from all over the area.

DAVIS: Right.

LEMON: So he's out for a while. And then this neighbor who is smoking a cigarette goes out to his boat then what happens?

DAVIS: He sees the boat cover had been ripped. So he went over to investigate that. And as he walked up to the boat, he realized there was blood on the cover. He grabbed the ladder. He peeked over the side of the boat and he told me that he saw a body inside the boat and he thought it was a dead body because it had blood on it. Then all of a sudden the body moved. At that time he retreated quickly and called 911.

LEMON: OK. So he saw him move. At no time was there a gunfire exchanged. The suspect never tried to shoot the neighbor who was checking on the boat?

DAVIS: As far as I know that's correct.

LEMON: Then police come. There's gunfire exchanged. Is Tsarnaev in the boat shooting at officers? Do we know if he's trying to kill himself?

DAVIS: Again, we don't know. There's been reports of gunfire from the boat, but there's an extensive ballistics investigation going on there and evidence investigation. It will take some time to get that complete. We do know that there was shots exchanged there. We do know that eventually the suspect stepped out of the boat.

LEMON: Yes. We saw - there's a picture of him getting out of the boat. So it appears he was conscious at least at one point.

DAVIS: Correct.

LEMON: Did you ever - did you or your officers or anyone ever get a chance to question him?

DAVIS: No. That didn't happen. We - we were represented at that time - there were three Boston police officers that initially surrounded the boat. Other officers came and assisted and we held that position until the FBI hostage rescue team could come into place. The HRT came in and they were in charge of that scene. They got the guy out of the boat. So extremely professional group. Very, very good to work with. They did a fantastic job there.


LEMON: Boston Police Commissioner Edward Davis. In the past few minutes we learned more about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, how he was injured. A federal official confirmed to us that he was shot in the side of the neck. Not clear if he was shot during the arrest or during the gun battle with police a few hours later. We'll certainly learn when he's able to regain consciousness and to get his voice back.

Much more from Boston straight ahead this hour including a close look at one of the victims of the marathon bombing but there is other news happening to tell you about right now.

Rising waters and rising fears. Half a dozen midwest states have flood problems and it's getting worse. Live from the flood zone, next.


LEMON: Communities in at least six midwest states are on edge as floodwaters continue to rise after several days of torrential rain. CNN i-reporter Landon Miller captured this footage of flooding in Peru, Illinois. He says water has breached concrete barriers in the town and several buildings are now completely under water.

CNN's Jim Spellman is south of there in Peoria, Illinois. Jim, have the people of Peoria been through this sort of thing before?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They've been through this before. Don, you can see the water already started coming up. This is the Illinois River. You can see where it's come up along this building. Heavy sandbagging on a lot of these buildings over here. But this is really not that unusual that they would get this level of flooding here in Peoria.

But over here, you can take a look at some of the precautions they're taking for what's coming next. The advantage they've had, Don, it's been no secret that this water has been coming up so they spent the last few days building barriers just like this one. Concrete jersey walls in the middle, sandbags surrounding it. They expect the water to come up to about here. If that's the case, they feel like they'll be in good shape, this will help protect most of these businesses.

If the predictions are wrong and it goes higher, there could definitely be serious damage here and in homes in some of the low- lying areas along the river. But not just here in Peoria, Illinois. Sixteen or so states could be affected by this heavy spring flooding that we expect after all these rain storms, Don. So it's going to be a long few days here all the way down towards the Gulf of Mexico, Don.

LEMON: All right. Everyone's going to be watching very closely. Thank you, Jim Spellman, we appreciate it.

A second wave of people who live near the site of a massive explosion at a fertilizer plant in the town of West, Texas, were allowed to return home today. Residents who are lucky enough to still have homes began returning yesterday. Wednesday's explosion flattened the north side of the small farming town, heavily damaging a nursing home, schools, and neighborhoods. 14 people were killed. Hundreds of others injured. Authorities say they know where the blast originated but they do not know why it happened. The Boy Scouts of America could be scrapping a decades-old restriction on gay members, but that doesn't mean the door is completely open. Those on both sides of the debate are talking to us next.


LEMON: Gay scouts might soon be allowed to join the Boy Scouts of America, but not gay scout leaders. That's the proposal from the scouts executive committee. A final proposal is expected to be presented to the Boy Scouts voting members at its meeting in Dallas in May. Now, this comes after the scouts back tracked from an idea to let local councils make their own decision.

I want to talk about the proposed changes to the boy scouts policy now with John Stemberger, a former eagle scout and then is the founder of, a group opposed to being openly gay in the boy scouts. He joins us from Orlando. And then Zach Wahls is the founder of Scouts for Equality and author of "My Two Moms: Lessons of Love, Strength and What Makes Family." He joins us from Los Angeles.

So, John, let's start with you. What do you think about the compromise proposal put forward by the Scouts executive committee?

JOHN STEMBERGER, FOUNDER, ONMYHONOR.NET: I think it's an awful proposal and it's going to destroy scouting as we know it. Financially, socially, as a practical matter. You're going to see a mass exodus, literally hundreds of thousands of scouts. There's no way that the Latter Day Saints, the Catholics, the Baptists, the Methodists, are going to do this.

The new proposal requires every scouting unit to foster open homosexuality amongst its boys and that just disrespects the religious (INAUDIBLE) and traditions of the vast majority of churches that sponsor these units. I think it's going to be an entire disaster that will transform scouting as we know it and it will be horrible.

LEMON: Before I go to you, Zach, so John, what's the difference, then, between scouts who are already there, scouts who are already in the Boy Scouts including parents, including leaders who are already gay? What's the difference between them being openly gay and not openly gay?

STEMBERGER: That's a great question. Currently there are people in scouting with the same-sex attraction, both adults and young people. There's not a witch hunt to find out who they are. But they're appropriate. They're discreet. They're discerning. They're not loud and proud. They're not promoting politics and human sexuality. That's the difference.

The full participation is not good enough for the gay activists. They want to promote the gay agenda. And that's what's just inappropriate. It distracts from scouting's mission. And we say no sex in politics and scouting. This proposal does just that.

LEMON: Yes, Zach, there's a lot in what he said about being out and proud and about being appropriate and what have you. I see you are shaking your head. Go on.

ZACH WAHLS, AUTHOR "MY TWO MOMS: LESSONS OF LOVE": Sure. I joined scouting when I was six years old. I was a kindergartener living in central Wisconsin who wanted to experience the great outdoors. After one year in the program, my mom, Jackie, became one of the den mothers in our scouting unit. She was an openly lesbian woman. You know, frankly, like John said, she wasn't out and proud. She wasn't waving a rainbow flag around. But when people asked her what she did last weekend, she wasn't going to say she wasn't spending time with my other mom, Terri.

And so when people try to say this is about, you know, open or about homosexuality, it's really just a code word for the problem they have with gay people. Being an open gay person is not a whole lot different than being a closeted gay person except for the fact you have somebody trying to lie and violate the very first part of the scout law which is a scout is trustworthy.

And so this policy of discrimination of keeping people out of the program is not about keeping people quiet or anything like that but it's about keeping people out of the program because of the problems that they have with gay people like my moms, Jackie and Terri.

STEMBERGER: I totally disagree with that.

LEMON: John, why are you shaking your head?

STEMBERGER: Well, I mean, look, this is - it's an insane policy. It is going to destroy scouting. We hope that every delegate votes no on this resolution because it would literally destroy the program. There was a two-year study done from 2010 -

LEMON: Hang on, hang on, hang on, John. There's a delay, but let me get in here. I don't understand, what do you mean it's going to destroy scouting? I am openly gay. I was a boy scout. I don't - what do you mean it's going to destroy scouting?

STEMBERGER: As a practical matter, there's no way that the Catholic churches that sponsor these units, they're forcing the LDS and Baptists and all these churches to take openly gay scouts and foster that in their program. There's no way they can do that in good faith with the values and the religious beliefs that they have. So it shows -

WAHLS: Don, this is a really important -

STEMBERGER: -- 75 percent of the charter units that are actually supporting scouting. They're going to leave. I'm telling you, there's going to be hundreds of thousands of parents, scouts and scout masters that will leave the program.


LEMON: How do you know that?

STEMBERGER: Goodness, I mean, trust me, I'm telling you. Look on the Facebook pages. You can talk to people. Talk to the religious denominations. The Baptists said they're definitely going to leave if they strike the open and about homosexual clause. This is not about banning anyone from scouting but it's about banning gay activism in the program.


LEMON: Go ahead, Zach.

WAHLS: Yes, Don, it absolutely is about banning people from scouting. It was the removal of Ryan (INAUDIBLE), an openly gay youth, in California, who was denied his Eagle Award because he was an openly gay young man. It was about denying Jennifer Terrell, a lesbian den mother from Ohio who just wanted to be part of her son's scouting experience from the program. John can talk about this however he likes but he can't change the reality that under the current membership standard, parents like my moms, loving, caring wise people who just want to be a part of their son's scouting experience, are being barred from the program. Even under the new change, that would be the case. And it will continue to make sure that people who are young gay men who are in the program know that the day you turn 18 years old, you are no longer fit to be a scout.

That isn't what scouting is about. Scouting is not about kicking people out. It's not about trying to tell you, you know, what is or what is not appropriate in this kind of context. Scouting is about fostering leadership, you know, important life skills in young men. This policy prevents scouting from truly living its mission.

LEMON: All right. Zach, John, thank you very much. That's going to have to be the end. We don't have time, John. Thank you. Sorry about that.

All right. We're going to get back to Boston now. We're hearing from families of the victims killed in the Boston bombings and we're learning more about the victims' lives. The latest right after this break.


LEMON: The third person killed in the bombings, Lingzi Lu had come to Boston just last fall. Friends say she was kind and relished the opportunity to come to America from her native China.

CNN's Pamela Brown takes a closer look at a life that was cut all too short.


PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Her sweet smile, bubbly personality, eagerness to help others, just some of the ways those that knew 23-year-old Lingzu Li describe her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really sweet, really quiet, always (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her smile was very shy. We all loved her. BROWN: After starting as a Boston University grad student last year, Lu quickly became a well-known figure in the school of Mathematics and Statistics where she was studying.

PROF. ERIC POLACHECK, BOSTON UNIVERSITY: I admitted her, I recruited her, I welcomed her, I advised her, and I taught her. So I interacted with her on so many different levels.

BROWN: Her professor Eric Polacheck said she was an excellent student, who had big dreams to study in the U.S., so she could go back to China as a businesswoman.

(on camera): How hard is that to know what a bright future she had, and that's been taken away from her?

POLACHECK: I can't say how hard it is. It's completely senseless. It's - there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's such a waste. It's such a waste of all the time and energy and dreams that she had and we'll never know what she could have done.

BROWN: Dreams cut short on Monday on what was supposed to be a day of fun watching the Boston Marathon with two friends. She was standing at the finish line when the bombs went off. Her roommate posted this message saying "She's still not home yet and I can't contact her. Everyone's worried." That post sparked a global social media search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone was like reposting the status, and trying to help her roommate to find her.

BROWN: One friend went to the hospital, her other friend unharmed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of her friends with her that day went to get coffee that moment.

BROWN: So the third friend went to get coffee.


BROWN: At the time the bomb went off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, exactly. That's why she's still alive.

BROWN: Sadness Tuesday afternoon after word spread Lu was the third victim of the bombings, BU's close-knit Chinese community is still in a loss of one of their own.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are really far away from home and we don't have parents or any relatives here, so I mean, for them, we are the family.

BROWN: Lu had just taken her final exam and was one class away from graduating. And you're going to be grading her last exam.


BROWN: How difficult will that be? POLACHECK: Well, I'll do the same thing I always do, which is turn them all facedown, grade them without looking who wrote it. That's the only way to do it unbiased. But when I turn them back over and look at her name and how she had done, that will be more tough.

BROWN: If Lu passed her final exam as expected, the school may award her posthumously with her Master's degree in Statistics. In the meantime, we've learned that Lu's parents have obtained emergency visas, and are expected to be here sometime this weekend.

Pamela Brown, CNN, Boston, Massachusetts.


LEMON: All right. Pamela, Krystle Campbell was killed just weeks before her 30th birthday. Her brother says he's glad the manhunt it over, but the suspect's capture does not change the painful fact that his vivacious sister is gone forever. William Campbell III told "The Boston Globe" "I'm happy that nobody else is going to get hurt by these guys, but it's not going to bring her back."

Amid heightened security, runners made their way through London with Boston on their mind. And for one wheelchair participant, it was extra-special. That's next.


LEMON: London's marathon went off without a hitch today, but the race was anything but ordinary. The event began after 30 seconds of silence to commemorate those killed and wounded in Monday's attack in Boston. But on a happy note, Tatiana McFadden, the elite wheelchair racer who won Monday's marathon also came in first in the wheelchair division in London. She had her thoughts were never far from Boston.


TATYANA MCFADDEN, WHEELCHAIR RACER: The whole weekend was definitely dedicated to Boston and, you know, the race is definitely dedicated to Boston. We had a huge support from London, which was amazing. I think the support definitely carried athletes through the entire race, which, you know, was phenomenal. Even London donating, as we heard, two pounds for every finisher to Boston. So just the support that we're getting around the world just means a lot, especially, you know, back to Boston and even athletes.


LEMON: McFadden set a new record for the course in today's win. There's so many details coming in by the minute and this investigation into the bombings in Boston about the suspects, the one who is dead and the other one who is still in the hospital.

Did he shoot himself in the neck to try to kill himself? Or did he return gunfire between him and the police? We're still trying to find out those details and exactly what he's going to be charged with as he lay in the hospital intubated, also not conscious right now. I'm Don Lemon, live in Boston. I'll see you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. In the meantime, an Anderson Cooper special report, "Terror at the Marathon" begins right now.