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Jodi Arias Murder Case

Aired April 24, 2013 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Thanks, Nancy. Good evening, everybody.

My co-host, psychologist Michelle Ward, host of "Stalked" on Discovery ID.

And we have tons of things to talk about tonight. Breaking news about Jodi, allegedly, having been pregnant by Travis.

But, first, will the truth set Jodi Arias free or keep her lockup? Take a look at this tape.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Did you have occasion to place your hand for example on one of the shelves to see what would happen if you put your hand on the shelf?


MARTINEZ: This is what happened?


JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He entered the closet at the point I was jumping up on the shelf.

MARTINEZ: See those little holes? Those shelves have some little pegs that do in there. These are really nothing more than resting shelves. Did you know the rating on these shelves was 40 pounds. Did you know that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were talking a moment ago about his mother. Was his father also neglectful, too, to your understanding?



PINSKY: Coming up in the behavior bureau, testosterone. We`re going to have a lot of testosterone. We`re going to talk about what guys think about Jodi. Hot or not? Behavior appropriate or not?

Guys panel and then we`ll women waiting in the wings to gives us -- and, Michelle, you`ll be stuck in that panel with us. We`ll have you properly silenced.

WARD: Perfect.

PINSKY: Good luck with that.

"In Session" correspondent Beth Karas is covering the trial.

Beth, what happened in court today?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, not too much testimony, but important rebuttals nonetheless. But the big moment was a newcomer in the public gallery, sitting in a wheelchair, next to her daughter, Jodi Arias`s mother, Sandy Arias, was grandma -- the woman Jodi was living with. She was living with her grandparents when the gun was allegedly stolen in a burglary. Of course, the prosecution thinks Jodi did it.

This was the only time perhaps that grandma was in court. Let me tell you, people were atwitter when they saw her there.

PINSKY: Thank you very much, Beth.

Now to my panel, attorney Lauren Lake, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from, and psychologist, Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part".

And joining us, joining this panel, on the phone is Mike Walker, he is senior editor at "The National Enquirer." He`s also author of "Out for Blood."

Mike, thank you for joining us. Now, you guys have information about Jodi allegedly being pregnant. Can you tell us about that?

MIKE WALKER, NATIONAL ENQUIRER (via telephone): Yes. Jodi claims. We`re not sayings he was pregnant, we`re saying we have a source who was told by Jodi she got pregnant by Travis but she lost the baby.

And his reaction absolutely devastated her. He was so cold-hearted about it. She felt as though he had stabbed her in the heart and she said, pardon the expression, killed her, to see how he could turn against her and treat her so horribly. That`s what she`s saying.

PINSKY: I wonder why she didn`t go for a postpartum psychosis or pregnancy related mood disturbance or something.


PINSKY: I also heard you saying she is preparing to write a book?

WALKER: Yes. Our source has seen he her -- you`ve seen her writing in court, she`s always scribbling on the legal pads. She is actually selling some of those illustrations that she`s doing. Friends are selling them for her on the Internet for up to $3,000 a page, authentic Jodi Arias courtroom sketches.

She is also in her cell with legal pads writing what she says is a book. This little poison cookie absolutely believes she is going to get off free. When she gets off free, she has been in there five years, she has no money, she is going to write a best selling book and working on it very assiduously.

And I think you may have read our story about one of the very interesting tales she told about how Travis was fascinated with Alfred Hitchcock`s movie, "Psycho" with Janet Leigh and she gets sliced up in the shower, very frightening scene. And she claims that Travis claimed he was sexually aroused by the idea of a naked woman being attacked in this shower and he wanted to experiment with that. So they got the knife in the shower and she said, then he started roughing her up, things got out of hand.


WALKER: She said after that, the knife she used would never have been in the bathroom to begin with. I mean, this is just the latest from Jodi.

PINSKY: Now, I want to remind everyone. Thank you, Mike, hang on there.

Now, we -- HLN cannot confirm this information. But let`s talk about what Mike has been telling us.

Mark, you`ve been waving to get your say. In addition to whatever you want to say, let me ask you, does any of what she earns, would that pay back the taxpayers of Arizona for her defense?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: God, I hope so. I mean, if she can benefit and get around the Son of Sam law and benefit from this whole thing, I certainly hope the state goes after her.

Let me respond to what I just heard. If there is a big octagon state sign on the side of the road, I stop. Also, when I hear, Jodi says, I do the same thing. I think to myself, what I`m about to hear has no merit whatsoever.

What Mike just said is Jodi then tells someone else who tells someone else. That`s a horrible game of telephone.

But let`s go one step further. Let`s say there`s objective evidence of this, that Jodi had a miscarriage of Travis`s baby. Hmm, well, we know they had sex. As I just taught my 11-year-old, when you have sex, that could happen. So --

PINSKY: So, slow down, Mark, hold on. What happens when you have sex? A baby is produced?

EIGLARSH: I`m not really sure. My child could tell you.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Lauren, you seem to have a reaction to all this material, too. Go ahead.

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: I have to ask, Mike, does the source have any idea how pregnant was she? You know, Jodi is funny like that. She remembers some amazing details and then she gets to certain things and she gets real foggy. How pregnant was she when she lost the baby.

PINSKY: Do we know that, Mike?

WALKER: I`m sort of shocked you all are implying Jodi might not always tell the truth.

PINSKY: Stunning, stunning. We really are bad people. But go ahead, Mike.

WALKER: But fascinating. No. She did not give anymore details than that. I mean, believe me, if she had any more details, we (INAUDIBLE) of them. And remember, I`m not saying this is true, we`re saying this is what Jodi has told the source that we`ve been speaking to and the source has been accurate in other details about Jodi`s life, not things that Jodi is coming up with in her brain.

PINSKY: Robi, I`m fascinated by the psycho story she added. The reason we had those psycho pictures on hand, my producers brilliantly pulled them up from weeks ago, there they are again, we noticed these association from Alfred Hitchcock`s film and magically the pictures Jodi took of Travis. It gave us chills. They both are preoccupied with this thing.

Robi, what do you want to ask Mike?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, the first thought I had just in terms of the pregnancy, is I don`t think this is true at all.

EIGLARSH: Alleged.

LUDWIG: Alleged. I know. My thought is I think Jodi probably had various pregnancy scares and that`s what contributed to this fantasy. So, in her mind, she might have gone to Travis and say, you know what, I`m a little bit late, just to check out his reaction and he might have been very dispassionate about it.

As far as Alfred Hitchcock, it`s anyone`s guess. It seems like they did talk a lot about celebrities and movies and maybe they did try to reenact some of this. But Jodi seems to be stating what she was doing in the shower was all directed by Travis and it got out of hand based by his violence. But it sounds like more character assassination.

PINSKY: I agree with you. Michelle, before -- I don`t know if you have a question or comment, but I want to ask something. This business of -- to me, threatening suicide and threatening being pregnant go in the same slot for somebody like Jodi, don`t they?

WARD: Absolutely.

PINSKY: They are strictly manipulations.

WARD: Right. She`s so afraid he`s going to leave, which is very typical for somebody like Jodi that I`m pregnant, you can`t leave. I`m going to kill myself if you leave me. And it`s very dramatic. I`m not surprised that she would tell Travis that and afterwards say it as well.

But this Alfred Hitchcock thing, the first I heard of it, seems to me she might have planned to kill him this way.

PINSKY: Oh. That`s why she was taking the pictures?

WARD: Yes.


Mike -- Michelle who`s sitting next to me here is an expert in psychopathy and she feels Jodi is a psychopath and she is coming up with this idea that Jodi actually -- I can`t go there -- what do you think, Mike, that she premeditated those pictures to be in sequence like in "Psycho?"

WALKER: I think this idea, I believe that this idea was in somebody`s head, whether Travis` or hers or some fantasy that they talked about. But she seems to be somebody that acts very impulsively at times. I think, you know, that she was taking the pictures, they`re they are in -- they`re in the shower taking pictures. Hey, honey, remember I told you about the knife and Janet Leigh and it could have developed that way.

It is very funny. These are the pictures. We`ve seen these pictures in the shower and suddenly this seems to spring out of it. Who knows? Jodi may have heard this somewhere, maybe on HLN, somebody talking --

PINSKY: You`re right. She could be telling stories about anything.

WALKER: Who knows what she comes up with but the length and breadth of this woman`s fantasies and twisted psychopathic imagination.

PINSKY: But she believes, you can tell by the way she`s going ahead with writing a book and manifesto and pictures, she believes she`s going to get off.

WALKER: That`s right. She does.

LAKE: Well, she`s like Casey Anthony.

EIGLARSH: No, no, I do not believe that. If I felt she really believed that she wouldn`t have made a plea offer potentially to resolve this case. I know that she knows that she`s not going anywhere. But what this is all about, utilizing Mike and utilizing different people is something we will see over the decades or full life of Jodi Arias.

She`s going to continue to resurface. She`s going to utilize all this -- the media and people for her advantage and it`s just going to be a sign of things to come. It`s really frustrating.

PINSKY: Mike, before we sign off with you, anything else you need to tell us that you`re reporting or have reported on?

WALKER: Well, I presume you report she also has another life planned with her jailhouse lesbian lover, very attractive woman, by the way. And they are going to go off and live together when Jodi is free. And this little poison cookie, by the way, has already lined up a sperm donor, a friend, a male friend, because they want to have a baby and this guy has agreed to be the sperm donor for their IVF.

PINSKY: Mike, of course, HLN cannot confirm your reporting but we love your reporting. And we appreciate you being here. And may I use the poison cookie term? May I steal it from you?

WALKER: Indeed.

PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you. I think it`s very poetic. Very lovely.

Thank you to our bureau. Thank you to Mike.

Next up, the behavior bureau. It will be the bureau, though, on testosterone. Guys weighing in on Jodi, they`re they are, and Travis` x- rated fantasies.

And later, the man Jodi once dated uncensored. He will answer your questions.

Back after this.


JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Despite projecting himself as a good and virginal Mormon man.

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.

ARIAS: Like what?

ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) by the way.

WILLMOTT: Jodi was Travis`s dirty little secret.

ARIAS: He wanted me to put pop rocks in my mouth while I give him oral sex.

WILLMOTT: From the moment he met Jodi, he was pushing and pushing her to have a sexual relationship with him.

ARIAS: We were looking for a place out in the woods in nature to somehow carry out this little red riding hood fantasy.

ARIAS: I`m going to zip tie your arms around a tree, blindfold you and put a camera on a timer while (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you.

WILLMOTT: Later in the relationship, Travis would tell her anal sex really isn`t much of a sin compared to vaginal sex.

ALEXANDER: You cannot say that I don`t work that booty.

ARIAS: Oh, never mind, you do know how to work the booty.

WILLMOTT: Behind the smiles and these photographs, there was a whole other reality for Jodi.

ARIAS: He wanted to drive home, give him oral sex and he wanted to (EXLETIVE DELETED) on my face and then get back in his car and drive away without saying a single word.

ALEXANDER: It takes creativity to top ourselves,

ARIAS: I know it does, we`ve gotten way creative in the past.


PINSKY: Isn`t that cute? Time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-hosts, psychologist Michelle Ward.

And tonight, we`re getting the male point of view of Jodi Arias. Warning, this is going to be intentionally an uncensored conversation. Keep in mind a female panel is standing by watching and will respond to the next segment. Michelle, you`re going to have to like -- you`ll be all right?

WARD: I think I can handle it.

PINSKY: OK, good. Thank you.

Joining us, attorney Mark Eiglarsh, Abe Abdelhadi, who had dated Jodi and knew Travis, and TV and radio personality Mike Catherwood.

All right, guys. First of all -- hi, Mike.

How many of you are in a monogamous relationship or married right now?


PINSKY: Show of hands. Show of hands.

OK. Abe, you`re the single guy.


PINSKY: OK. And, Abe, would you have any kind of relationship ongoing right now?

ABDELHADI: Not exactly, no.

PINSKY: All right. So, we`re sort of hitting the spectrum. We got old married guy. We got recently married guy.

EIGLARSH: Is this old dating show?

PINSKY: All right. Raise your hand if the last fantasy we heard him talking about -- Abe, you`re out of this one, with your spouse, were you to present something like that, would you be kicked to the sofa?

ABDELHADI: How about if you present it and not get kicked to the sofa?

PINSKY: That`s what I`m wondering. Oh, Mike, you`d be kicked to the sofa?

CATHERWOOD: No. Are you kidding me? I`d be praised by my wife.

PINSKY: That`s the point. Mike, I`ll go to you first. Is this behavior we`ve heard about in court -- let me phrase it this way. To me, what`s deviant about the behavior we heard in court is that she taped it. That`s deviant. The actual behaviors.

Mike, do you see any deviant behaviors there?

CATHERWOOD: Absolutely not. You have to understand when you`re in a committed relationship, sex is like a pickup basketball game where you call your own fouls. Everybody kind of knows, you know, there`s some unwritten rules, and you kind of got to gauge the sin and every time you play another game, you figure out what`s OK and what`s not. You know, the far you push, it really is decided on the court.

Sometimes you`re playing with a guy with a bum knee or an old man who used to shoot hoops underhand, and then you know it isn`t really open season. Every once in a while, you get a guy who`s dunking on you and you realize, I got to go hard in the paint. And that`s exactly what was going on in this relationship.

PINSKY: Mark, that was a direct attack on you and me.

WARD: Can you speak this in English?

EIGLARSH: Wow, what a metaphor.

ABDELHADI: Mike is making perfect sense, leave him alone.

CATHERWOOD: I`m making sport references, which is, finally, we`re able to do that, Dr. Drew, because you have some guys on the behavior bureau.

ABDELHADI: Mike is making perfect sense.

PINSKY: Abe, go ahead, before Mark rings in.

ABDELHADI: Mike is making perfect sense. What Travis and Jodi said on that call is not deviant in the least. It`s what two adults choose to engage in. She`s no saint, as Mark Eiglarsh said, that Socrates said before. She was no abused virgin.

And to sit there and say that the park ranger fantasy was awesome. I wish he was still alive, I would get notes from him God bless his heart. So, I have no issue with anything that he did. If this is their idea of deviant, then I`m going straight to hell.

PINSKY: The only problem, Mark, with poor Travis, that it wasn`t consistent with his self-concept and his religious beliefs and that sort of thing. So, he probably had a lot of conflicted feelings about it.

EIGLARSH: So what?

PINSKY: So what?

EIGLARSH: He`s a victim. Who`s -- listen, he`s not perfect, but this is not about that. Let`s just talk about introducing things to a relationship.

Let`s say you bring this into a relationship, OK? You with me, Drew? I know you are. You do the 50 shades thing, I know you do, right?


EIGLARSH: What`s wrong with that? Again, the whole definition of sexual deviance according to goggle, those who seek erotic gratification through means that are considered odd, different or unacceptable. I don`t like the term sexual deviant. There`s nothing wrong with different.

Who`s judging the relationship? Whatever happened to spice up your sex life? That`s a good thing, as long as you`re consenting. Baby, I`ll be home in about 40 minutes.

PINSKY: And, Mike, if you brought any props with you, please keep them to yourself. Mike and I do a radio show every night called Love Line, check your local listing, go to, but I know what Mike is into.

And maybe, Mike, you can help us as a young male --


PINSKY: -- where that line is for deviant. And again don`t show us any props, please, because I know where you go.

CATHERWOOD: Honestly, I feel like the line is very fluid, pardon the pun, and it changes but with each relationship. There`s been young ladies who I don`t feel it would necessarily be appropriate to go as severe as Jodi did and Travis did.

But then there`s certain young ladies, my wife included -- hello, honey -- you feel you have a sense of adventure in the relationship. Jodi made it very clear to Travis that she was a triple threat, if you know what I mean. All three sports were open for his young ship to come into shore.

I`m saying, look, you`ve got to explore all those ports if you`re going to give access to it. There`s nothing like a sailor on shore leave. Dr. Drew, you know that.

PINSKY: Abe, go ahead.

ABDELHADI: This plays -- what the defense is doing is playing into the prurient interest of the United States and need to pull the collective stick out of their collective asses, because what ends up happening is that they sit there and they try to use deviant, and then everyone acts all puritanical like, oh, I`ve never done that. I`ve never for thought about tying my spouse up to a tree and doing her on a tree. Oh, my God, that`s so horrible. He must have been a deviant, yes. And they all jump on the bandwagon to sit there and say, as though they behaved like a bunch of pilgrims.

It`s insulting to the intelligence. We`re adults.

PINSKY: Go, Mark.

EIGLARSH: What they`re doing is they`re targeting apparently the few Mormons that are on the jury, and what they`re trying to do is devalue his life to somehow make it better for Jodi. I find that to be despicable. If she`s ever going to get the death penalty, that`s something some jurors may take into consideration.

PINSKY: Now, I`m going to give Michelle a chance to ask a final question. I notice she has clasped her hands together and she is -- her legs tightly crossed and closed her body off to us.

Do you have a question for the group?

WARD: Well, I don`t know --

EIGLARSH: Wasn`t this an all guys` panel?

PINSKY: She`s been quietly waiting her turn, here we go.

WARD: I can`t figure out if this is the worst day of my life or best day of my life. First of all, I`m cool with Mike showing his props. Second of all, I want to know, OK, I think of men as the 80-20 rule. Like you all have some kind of sexual deviance. I know mark doesn`t like that word. But some guys are 80 percent that and some guys extreme, you think of it 80 percent of your day, and other guys, it`s 20 percent of the day.

I don`t even think what he`s saying is that bad. I`m not saying I engage. I`m into the forest ranger.

PINSKY: We heard all about Mike and his wife. Yes.

WARD: That`s totally cool. I don`t even think what they`re saying about what Travis said to Jodi is all that horrible compared to what --

PINSKY: Here`s what`s horrible. The family had to sitting through it in a court of law and they had to leave through a private moment with people and have this guy`s character assassinated by a defense team who thought they had to do that. And that this crazy woman -- I should use, let`s use a clinical term, this terrible borderline psychopath had recorded this.

That`s really what this is.

And that`s why I wonder if I could bring this -- I don`t blame the defense team. I blame Jodi. I blame Jodi.

PINSKY: Fair enough. The defense is doing their job.

EIGLARSH: She`s running the show there, Drew.

PINSKY: She recorded the tape. Listen, the fact is this panel on testosterone was to prove a point, that all that character assassination is for naught. We have a spectrum of males here different ages, married and single and all exonerate Travis, yes?


PINSKY: For sure.

WARD: You know, the men on the jury will do the same thing.

PINSKY: I think that`s exactly right. Thank you very much, bureau.

We`re going to have women ring in next on the behavior bureau, a group of psychologist, roughly female, who will analyze what you guys and what you`ve been saying and what they just heard. There they are.

And later, Abe will be back to answer your questions about Jodi. No restrictions. No rules. You call. We`ll take those questions after this.


PINSKY: Back with my standard behavior bureau and my co-host, Michelle Ward. We`ll be getting a female point of view on these things. Quick couple of Twitters @DrDrew and @DrDrewHLN.

This is from @sexyinmy60s, a 67-year-old woman. I get everything Mike just said, he is spot on.

We had a panel of men talking about Travis. Mike Catherwood, my co- host on "Love Line" was the one that`s outspoken, made Michelle a little uncomfortable, was that the word to use?

WARD: A little nervous.

PINSKY: I`ve never seen Michelle blush and enjoy something simultaneously. It was really quite something to watch.

WARD: It was quite the experience.

PINSKY: Quite the experience, right.

Exonerating Travis for people even thinking of him as a deviant and blaming Jodi for dragging this into a courtroom.

Psychologist Cheryl Arutt, Wendy Walsh, and Robi Ludwig join us.

All right. You guys, first of all, you were watching the men and their comments. We will get your reaction around the horn starting with Wendy.

WENDY WALSH, AUTHOR: OK. Well, you know, this week, Dr. Drew, "The 30-Day Love Detox", just came out, my book, it`s all about this. Did you know the most common human fantasy is forced sex? So, that`s what these guys are talking about.

But did you also know, Dr. Drew, that men tend to overestimate women`s comfort level with sexual acts. That`s all I`ll say.

PINSKY: OK. Well, that`s interesting, something for us to learn on there. That`s what freaks guys out so much about listening to those tapes because the men -- the men hear her responding how could she be experiencing that as something problematic if she seemed to be so engaged in it.

Robi, what say you?

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, Jodi used sex to manipulate. She wanted love. She might have been feigning being OK with all kinds of thing that she really was not OK with. Was Travis sexually deviant? No.

And if somebody, let`s say, is a sexual deviant, or has a sexual paraphilia, so what? That doesn`t mean that they deserved to get killed. It doesn`t mean that they`re dangerous. Let`s make that clear distinction here. I think that`s important for people to know.

PINSKY: Robi brings up the paraphilia which pedophile going after children is one of them. That keeps coming up from the defense. That is absurd. There`s zero evidence that Travis had anything like that going on, right, Cheryl?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right. There was no evidence that Travis was sexually attracted to kids and it`s really trying to slander Travis to make people have less compassion for him. But I think we really need to think about what do we want to be more upset about -- sex with consenting adults, or violence like savagely murdering somebody?

PINSKY: They shouldn`t be thought of in the same breath, guys.

ARUTT: Of course.

WALSH: But they happened in the same day. They happened together.

PINSKY: Again, Mark Eiglarsh can`t get it through his head that Jodi used them both the same way, violence and sex.

And the defense used an audiotape to back up Jodi`s claim that Travis was a pedophile. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was hot. The way you moan, it sounds like you`re a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. It`s so hot.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve-year-old girl having her first orgasm.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like (INAUDIBLE) hot little girl.


PINSKY: So, Michelle, here we have Jodi behaving like a 12-year-old girl, dressing like a 12-year-old girl, and he gets blamed for it.


PINSKY: And by the way, that is not pedophilia. That`s a fantasy acting out.

WARD: Right. And I was under the impression that Jodi introduced the kinky sex into the relationship.

PINSKY: I think that was -- she certainly, as we`ve all said, used it and really sucked him into something. Listen, whenever intensity replaces love and mutuality and intimacy, people get into trouble.

WARD: Well, and show me the guy who`s not going to respond to this. I mean, I`m not a guy, but --

PINSKY: None of those guys on that panel, we just say. That`s for sure.

WARD: But I thought they were pretty representative. I don`t know. I thought she was the vixen.

PINSKY: Oh, there`s no doubt about it. Diana in Indiana, you want to ask something to our panel. Go ahead.

DIANA, INDIANA: Well, it`s just this, we`re talking about his extreme and his deviant and so on, but I think that his -- the way he looks on, you know, overall is just -- she has layered so many lies about her sexual deviancy. It`s like everything she`s saying we`re kind of taking at face value and then we second-guess it.

PINSKY: Yes, yes.

DIANA: But don`t you think her layered perversions on top of just the simplicity has made this so much bigger?

PINSKY: And isn`t it interesting how the more -- the more this court case has gone on, the more we`re starting to see this increasingly clearly as we`ve sort of middled our way through this and wondering about this. It`s getting increasingly clear where this all is coming from. And that`s from Jodi.

Wendy and Robi, I want to go back to you and ask you about --start with Wendy. You say men overestimate women`s tolerance of these sorts of things. What are the cues that a man can use --

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "30-DAY LOVE DETOX": Their comfort level.

PINSKY: Well, how can a man understand that and what can women do to help men understand that?

WALSH: Well, I think that women actually, first of all, need to be a little stronger in their communication skills and not being so afraid that a guy will abandon them if they don`t comply with everything he`s in to. So, that`s the first thing is that women really need to build self-esteem. The second thing is, men need to understand that women`s experience with sex is very different than their experience with sex.

As we all know, men can very easily separate sex from emotions and plenty of women can, too, but, plenty of women also bond through sex. So, if men can have more compassion for the emotional experience that women are feeling and get not just a verbal consent but what I call an emotional consent, where you lock eyes and you see the truth of a person. It`s different than being on the phone and say, do like that, baby? Is that hot?

PINSKY: Right. Right.

WALSH: You know, it`s really good feeling --


PINSKY: Yes. And Robi, you agree with that?

ROBI LUDWIG, PH.D., AUTHOR, "TILL DEATH DO US PART": No, I definitely agree with that. And I think that Jodi really thought that if she could sexually turn a man on, that sex was so important in a relationship, that it would lead to love and behavior.

PINSKY: Right.

LUDWIG: She actually had it backwards. And I think that when we look at somebody with borderline personality, they sometimes confuse, which is the original term was, it was in between neurosis and psychosis.

PINSKY: Right.

LUDWIG: So, they do distort reality and sometimes have a hard time distinguishing between what`s really going on.

PINSKY: That`s right. Cheryl, I`ll let you finish this up. It used to be called borderline psychotic.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: OK. But let`s remember that Jodi was the one who was recording these. She asked him to repeat the comment about the 12-year-old girl. I think she was doing that because she wanted to have it to blackmail him.

PINSKY: OK. And Michelle, that`s where your head goes with this stuff, the psychopathic, cold-blooded, bizarre -- I can`t -- my head won`t even go there.

WARD: She is the wizard behind the curtain. And I -- I think there`s a place for both types of sex in a relationship. There`s the intimate sex and then there`s the fun kind of, you know, more kinky sex. But, I don`t think -- I think this was all directed behavior, and I think Jodi was the mastermind.

PINSKY: Ladies, thank you so much.

Next, I`m bringing back Abe Abdelhadi. He`ll be back to answer whatever you would like to ask him. Phone calls for Abe about Jodi. No holds barred.

And later, I`ll get on the hot seat answering my guests` questions about Jodi and Travis` sex life. We will be right back.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward, and joining us, Mark Eiglarsh, Lauren Lake, and Abe Abdelhadi.

All right. We`re going to take first a quick look at what has been Abe`s -- congratulation, my friend -- starring role in Jodi Arias` murder case.


ARIAS: I said, "you`re not MySpace friend anymore," and then the phone rang, it`s him, and he`s like, "hey, listen, this is why." It`s like "I deleted you from my friends because I just didn`t want to be any part of your drama with you and Travis."

The following evening, I went out with my friend, Abe. He drinks, he just got like a Maker`s Mark was his drink and I got cranberry juice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I reviewed the e-mail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And, it was written to a person named Abe, is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I feel that you and I should keep a friendly distance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And does she talk about how that they shouldn`t hug anymore?



PINSKY: Frowny face, Abe. No more hugs.


PINSKY: Now, you`re here to take viewer calls. We`ll encourage them in at 855-373-7395. But before we get the caller, with the viewer`s questions, I have a question. Jodi says you sent a breakup e-mail. I think she said it was three pages and then forwarded it to Travis. Was there such an e-mail and did she do this?

ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: I never got it. And this was, obviously, more than five, six years ago. If it was three sentences, I could see forgetting. I drink a lot of diet soda, the NutraSweet eat yours brain away. I get it. But three pages, I would remember three pages. I would remember that until I was 90 years old.

PINSKY: And Abe -- I see Mark has a question. I`ll get for him in a second, too. But Abe, do you ever lie in bed at night thinking to yourself, wow, I really just barely dodged the bullet there. I could have just a little further down the rabbit hole with this girl, and this could have been me?

ABDELHADI: I think about it a lot. Absolutely. Absolutely. I`d be lying if I said I didn`t. But I think about it every day in my jumping, you know -- when a tree moves or something? No. No, I don`t. But I do think about it and I think about it when I meet a new girl, frankly. So, yes, it`s with me.

PINSKY: Mark, you have a question?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes. The only reason why I want to know from Abe whether he really did get a Maker`s Mark drink and her, a cranberry juice like, she says, is to further show how she has extraordinary memory on every single detail of her life but doesn`t remember because of the fog. So, was that really what you had drank, Abe?

ABDELHADI: Yes. Nine out of ten times, if I`m at a restaurant or bar, I will have a Maker`s Mark or two.

EIGLARSH: It`s amazing.

PINSKY: It`s amazing. Yes. It`s crazy.

ABDELHADI: And I did have one that night.

EIGLARSH: But can`t say why she stabbed him so many times? It`s a fog.

PINSKY: It`s a fog.


PINSKY: Debbie in Mississippi, you want to ask Abe a question, go right at it.

DEBBIE, MISSISSIPPI: Hey. Wouldn`t you agree with my sweet wonderful deceased mother -- I`m 62, she told me all my life, if you act like a lady, you`ll be treated like a lady. If you act like an slut, you go and be treated like a slut and all you men are smoking hot. Thank you.

PINSKY: And we`re all what?

WARD: Smoking hot.


PINSKY: Well, thank you, Debbie. Well said, Debbie. Abe is --

ABDELHADI: Is she single? Hey!

PINSKY: Do we need to respond to that even? Let that one stand out there.

ABDELHADI: Well, I don`t usually treat women badly.

PINSKY: The fact that you treated her like a lady is why you didn`t go, get socked in. Marie in Virginia -- Marie.


PINSKY: Hi, Marie.

MARIE: I just want to say that I don`t believe that Jodi has borderline personality disorder. If you look at her, checklist her psychopath (ph), she is an A++. But my question for Abe is, Abe, when you were dating Jodi, did she manipulate you by using sex and was she sexually aggressive with you?

ABDELHADI: Well, and I understand, I knew her a few months before we went out. We had one dinner date, after that date, a couple of days later, she called me to tell me we couldn`t go out anymore and we remained friends for the next 18 months until she had actually killed Travis --


PINSKY: She was a little bit sexually aggressive with you in that one date you had.

ABDELHADI: Yes, she was, but it wasn`t this ongoing thing.

PINSKY: No. In fact, you were in the car with her and the magic underwear. Give us the whole story again --

ABDELHADI: Well, very quickly, it was outside of the car in a parking lot. We were standing out against her car. She was very assertive. She had no problem with it. We weren`t, you know, doing any on top of the car.


ABDELHADI: She had no problem asserting herself. She enjoyed herself. I didn`t get any -- I don`t know what you call --

PINSKY: Push back.

ABDELHADI: Yes. Push back or -- she didn`t like it or anything like that. Cars were passing by. She didn`t exhibit any kind of squeamishness that we might be seen. She had no issues at all whatsoever. And we had already spoken about religion at the Barnes & Noble which is where this magic panties comment came up, where she said that she was dabbling in Mormonism, little did I know she`d been baptized the month before by Travis.

So, she says dabbling. I questioned that a little bit. Now, we`re together, I made a reach and I found out she was, you know, wearing a thong and I made a joke out of it. This is a magic underwear. She says (INAUDIBLE) but there`s magic in them. I thought, great, she has a sense of humor. She has a good sense of humor about this. This could be a lot of fun. So, you know, she didn`t manipulate or do anything like that.

PINSKY: Thus, Abe spends his evenings worrying about what might have happened. But for the grace of God, there goes Abe. Abe, thank you very much, my friend. Thank you to the panel.

ABDELHADI: No problem.

PINSKY: Next, I will answer questions about Jodi Travis and sex.

And later, my jury is here. Is the end of this trial finally near? We will explain after the break.


PINSKY: It is time for Drew`s views. Welcome back. My co-host and psychologist, Michelle Ward. It is my turn to take the questions from my guests. Tonight, Jodi, Travis, men, women, and sex. Joining us, psychologist, Robi Ludwig, attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and attorney, Lauren Lake. Mark, you first.

EIGLARSH: Drew, I`m trying to understand this sexual deviance. OK? I`ve looked at it today. I`m trying to understand it. Apparently, we`re leaving it up to whatever society, whatever town you just happen to be in to decide how you seek erotic gratification whether it`s odd or different. So, if you drive to another part of town, you could be deemed sexually creative but sexual deviant in another part of town. Is it that simple?

PINSKY: It is even simpler, I would say, Mark. It is more left up to the couple and the individual. Are what that couple and that individual doing consistent with their beliefs, values, and even their sort of sense of themselves and is anybody hurting anybody else and are they both consenting? That`s where I put that. Robi, what`s your question?

LUDWIG: Yes. Was there something in the way that Jodi used her sex and sexuality, which could have been an indicator for Travis or other men about how sick she really was?

PINSKY: The answer -- isn`t that a great question, Michelle? That is a great, great question. And the answer is yes, but probably only in retrospect. We can understand it in retrospect, but if somebody, somebody could be behaving like Jodi and be perfectly healthy, would you agree with that?

WARD: Absolutely. I mean, elements of it. I mean, some of it, no. but, there are certainly elements --

PINSKY: I think the trick is to really be clear when somebody is using sex for other than intimacy. Lauren, what`s up?

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: That`s the perfect setup to my question. I want to know, do you feel like this was some type of deadly perfect sexual storm? And I mean that because Jodi`s manipulation, coupled with Travis` interest, you know, we talk about their demons connecting and this being a deadly combination. Can a person like Jodi who manipulates with sex ever be in a real normal relationship.

If she met someone that had boundaries or didn`t have those interests or wouldn`t let her manipulate them, could she have just been a normal wife or would she always taken it too far?

PINSKY: The answer is if she was strictly a borderline, it could have contained to some extent. It would have been an issue for a long time, probably their entire life and that relationship and it would have been rocky but it could have been contained differently. If she`s as much of a psychopath, as Michelle thinks she is, the answer is no.

Next up -- thank you, guys -- what will my jurors do when the trial is over? That day might be coming soon. Back after this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. It is time for Drew`s jurors with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Now, Katie, this is an extraordinary day. You didn`t even get into court today. What time did you get there and how long were the lines and why didn`t you get in?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": OK. Well, here`s the deal, Dr. Drew. So, I got up at the usual time at five o`clock, and I knew that there wasn`t going to be a morning session. So, Stacey texted me. She said, "I`m driving, I`m on my way." And I said, "you`re crazy." And so, I said, "Let me know how the lines are."

And by the time she got here, there were already 20 people. And I thought, you know what, I was all dressed and getting ready to leave the house, I thought I`m not even going to tempt it because I know so well how the situation works. So, I just got a cup of coffee and I sat down and watched "In Session" for a couple of hours. And, she got in, though. So, it was good.

PINSKY: And Stacey, you were there with Jodi`s grandmother in the courtroom for the first time. And you actually told my producers that there was a pretty intense connection across the room between the grandmother and Jodi. Is that accurate?

STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, it is. I mean, every time that there was kind of like a sidebar or anything, she would turn and look around. And today was the first time that Jodi`s family actually took up the entire row in the courtroom. And, the grandma was sitting on the very end and that`s who she made eye contact with every single time she looked over there.

I mean, it was almost -- it was like you almost kind of felt bad for the grandma being there, if you can picture having a grandma, but then knowing all these terrible things she did to Travis, it`d be interesting to, you know, know how the grandma was feeling, you know, in that moment as her granddaughter is looking at her, you know, and they`re kind of having that moment in the courtroom.

PINSKY: Grandma is another victim of Jodi. Michelle, you have any questions for the jurors?

WARD: Well, you know, I actually wanted to touch on that. I mean, no matter what we think of Jodi Arias, a grandmother`s job is just to love that grandchild and seems like she had a big part in her life, and she`s probably feeling something like, you know, what did I do wrong? What happened here? What happened to this little girl? And so, actually, you answered exactly what I was going to ask you. What was their interaction like and how the granny hold up?

PINSKY: Well, Katie, you`re going to have to get up 3:00 in the morning tomorrow. This thing is, of course, coming to an end soon, yes?

WICK: Yes. That`s what I`m going to -- we were just discussing that. I`m going to get up early and get here tomorrow because the judge actually said it`s going to be a short day. The whole entire aspect, Dr. Drew, atmosphere of this trial has really taken a different turn the last two weeks, the energy, the fighting going on in the fifth floor. It`s been -- it`s just been intense. Pretty emotionally tiring.

PINSKY: And this is because the things are coming to a finality. They`re wrapping up here. We`re getting to the end of the court -- going to the juror on Friday, right?

WICK: Yes.


FAIRRINGTON: When they announced what it was in the courtroom, I mean, everybody just started scrolling down like what does the judge think? Oh my goodness, we really got an end date to this? It`s been going on so long we never really thought we`d hear that.

PINSKY: Got to take a break. Thank you, ladies. Last call is next.


PINSKY: All right. Guys, I have limited time. Stacey, you wanted to say something quickly about Flores on the stand today.

FAIRRINGTON: Yes. Well, while he was up there, the jurors, I counted them, they were 10, all were doing this, they were doing this thinker pose (ph). There were intent (ph) on Flores. They were looking at him. They were paying attention to what he was saying. I really think seeing him in the courtroom everyday and then seeing him up on the stand again, I really think it`s somebody they want to listen and pay attention to.

PINSKY: And also, the testimony about the shelves seem very, very compelling. They`re really kind of debunking all the defense theories. Michelle, thank you very much. Good show today. Appreciate you sitting through all that male talk. It was good.

WARD: Thank you.

PINSKY: Thank you all for watching. Thank you to those of you who called. Thanks to my guests as well. Thank you, ladies, out there in Arizona. We`ll see you all next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now. I`ll see you there.