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Travis`s Closet Shelves Take Center Stage in Jodi Arias Murder Trial

Aired April 24, 2013 - 20:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which is later? In other words, which came later, the Walmart receipt or the photograph?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Walmart receipt. That would be 3:22.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were these photographs taken by the heliophone (ph) or were they transmitted from a different apparatus over (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were taken by the heliophone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are we looking at here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I took a measurement at the top of the shelf, and it was approximately seven feet high to the top of the shelf. Eighty-four would be seven (INAUDIBLE) ceiling would have been eight feet, so an additional foot on top of the shelf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it be this shelf?

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I probably needed a higher shelf to get up there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it would be this shelf, then, right?

ARIAS: I don`t remember if it was that one or the one above it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I returned to the address to look at the closet again, the bottom three shelves were in a different position.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that show that type of relationship between the pins and the shelf?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ever a holster that was found?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there was no holster found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there ever a gun case that was found?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there was no gun case.

ARIAS: (INAUDIBLE) I got in there (INAUDIBLE) I remembered where he kept the gun, so I grabbed it. I jumped up on the shelf, kept it on the very top, I grabbed it.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Were there any indications that a gun had ever been there? For example, were there any spare bullets of any caliber found throughout the house?



NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

After Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her lover, Travis Alexander, to death, leaving him dead in the shower stall, bombshell tonight. Arias in tears when the judge announces the jury will get the case in just days.

Tonight, we get word Arias is writing a tell-all book behind bars, blaming Alexander`s death on Alfred Hitchcock, of all people. And tonight, Arias also claiming she was pregnant by Travis Alexander.

We are live and taking your calls, camped outside that Phoenix courthouse. Right now, to testimony.


MARTINEZ: With regard to the investigation in this particular case, did you have occasion to go out to the Queensboro (ph) address to make some measurements involving the shelves?


MARTINEZ: When did you do that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I returned to the address on March 5th of this year.

MARTINEZ: And were photographs taken?


MARTINEZ: Exhibit 641 -- what are we looking at here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I took a measurement of -- at the top of the shelf, and it was approximately seven feet high to the top of the shelf.

MARTINEZ: From the bottom to the top, is that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, from the floor up.

MARTINEZ: It looks like it`s about 83-and-a-half. Would that be correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, 84 would be 7 feet, so...

MARTINEZ: And did you also take a measurement up to the roof, which would be exhibit 642?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Ceiling would have been 8 feet, so one additional foot on top of the shelf.

When I returned to the address to look at the closet again, the bottom three shelves were in a different position.

MARTINEZ: So you`re talking about this, this and this? Is that what you`re...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, those three.

MARTINEZ: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what I did is, I used the photographs from the original date that we were there, and I repositioned them in the same position.

MARTINEZ: How is it that one goes about repositioning these shelves? Do they have screws that are actually screwed in from the side? Or how is it that they are -- that these shelves are put together?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they`re free-floating shelves on shelf pins. I`m sure everybody has seen those small, little metallic shelf pins. And the shelves themselves are, you know, like, a very light material with just the paper coating on them.

MARTINEZ: The pins that are used to hold these shelves up, how many are there? Do you have one, two, three, four? How many?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Each shelf has four pins.

MARTINEZ: Sir, did you -- in taking a look at the shelves to ascertain what kind of shelves they were, did you lift one of the shelves just to show the underneathing (ph) position of the shelf as it would rest on top of these pins that you`ve described for us?


MARTINEZ: And exhibit 643. Does that show that type of relationship between the pins and the shelf?


MARTINEZ: And what are these things right here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are the shelf pins themselves. They`re a metal shelf pin.

MARTINEZ: And were there similar couple of pins on the other side?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, four altogether for each shelf.

MARTINEZ: I want you to take a look at exhibit 644. Did you have occasion to place your hand, for example, on one of the shelves to see what would happen if you put your hand on the shelf?


MARTINEZ: And taking a look at 644, does that show what happened when you put your hand on the shelf?


MARTINEZ: And this is what happened?



GRACE: Everyone, the significance of this testimony cannot be glossed over. What he`s doing here is pointing out that Jodi Arias lied about everything from a closet shelf to a gas can. You don`t think she`d lie to save her own skin with this jury? Now, you heard what the detective said. Now, take a listen. Contrast and compare to what he said with Arias`s testimony.


MARTINEZ: The gun was sort of tucked back there, right?

ARIAS: It was just in the corner, yes.

MARTINEZ: Which means it was further back than on the lip (ph), right?

ARIAS: Yes. That`s right.

MARTINEZ: Which would mean that you would have to reach a little further to get to it, right?

ARIAS: Correct.

MARTINEZ: And so in order for you to get to it, even though you say that you`re eye level here and that you can touch the top of this, you would still have to have something to get to the top of that, right?


MARTINEZ: And where is it that -- did you use anything to get up there or not?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.

MARTINEZ: What did you step on?

ARIAS: I stepped briefly on the edge of the shelf and I held onto the edge of the shelf with my other hand and grabbed the gun with my right hand.

MARTINEZ: All right. You said that you stepped on the shelf. Was it this shelf? Was it that shelf? Which shelf?

ARIAS: It was one of the shelves -- it was one of the shelves that are on the right.

MARTINEZ: Well, would it be this shelf?

ARIAS: I probably needed a higher shelf to get up there.

MARTINEZ: So it would be this shelf, then, right?

ARIAS: I don`t remember if it was that one or the one above it. But it...


ARIAS: Yes, it was one of those two.

MARTINEZ: So it was this one or this shelf here, correct?

ARIAS: Correct.

MARTINEZ: Ma`am, those shelves are resting shelves, aren`t they.

ARIAS: Do you mean resting as in...

MARTINEZ: Well, don`t they have, for example -- you can even see it here. And I`ll bring it in so that you can see what I`m talking about. See there are little holes there? You see that right there?


MARTINEZ: And since you`ve been there lots of times, you know that those shelves have some little pegs that go in there, right, to hold the shelf, right?

ARIAS: I know that because I see it in the photograph.

MARTINEZ: Well, you cleaned those, right?


MARTINEZ: And you can see that throughout this whole thing, that these are really nothing more than resting shelves that -- with shelves that rest on four metal pegs, right?


MARTINEZ: You`re familiar with those kinds of shelves, aren`t you.

ARIAS: Somewhat, yes.



ARIAS: I ran into the closet and I slammed the door. And I intended to run through the opposite end of the door because it has another exit. And as soon as I got in there and began to run, I remembered where he kept the gun, so I grabbed it.

I jumped up on the shelf. He kept it on the very top. I grabbed it, and then I ran out the other door as he was opening the door. And he ran, chasing me. And I turned around and pointed it at him so that he would stop chasing me.


GRACE: Uh-uh. No. It could not have happened that way. It couldn`t happen that way because those shelves are held up by little pins that can`t bear the weight.

Liz, please put up the graphic, the pictures of the shelves in Travis Alexander`s closet. Take a look at these. These are those shelves that only hold this weight. They couldn`t possibly have held the weight of Jodi Arias.

To Jean Casarez, joining me at the courthouse, along with Beth Karas. Also with us tonight, senior editor from "The National Enquirer" Mike Walker.

Jean Casarez, explain the import of this line of questioning.

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, here`s what we learned in court today. There are actually four pins that hold each shelf. And one of the photos, the last one, was so demonstrative about -- with his hand, placing the weight of his hand like you would place a foot, and it couldn`t even take the weight of a hand.

You know, I think we were all in shock when we heard this testimony because in open court, we did not know that it was going to be allowed in. It was March 5 of this year, Detective Flores went back to that home, now occupied by a brand-new family -- went in. The lower three shelves were not where they were when Travis was there. They put those three shelves in the same position that they were in on June 4th, 2008, and began to do their measurements.

GRACE: Beth Karas, the point is -- nobody cares whether these are high-quality shelves or not. That`s not the point. The point is that Jodi Arias is a liar.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": Absolutely. And also, he said they scoured that house, there was no evidence a gun had ever been in there, no holster, no box or any other device. There were no bullets, nothing, no gun cleaning kit, nothing to indicate that Travis Alexander or his roommate owned a gun.

GRACE: You know...

KARAS: Nor could she have ever stood on the shelf the way she said.

GRACE: You know, I`m interested to how the jury is responding to this line of questioning, Beth. What are they doing? I mean, first, you know, you wouldn`t think that a Walmart corporate person would be that interesting, but that was a very interesting witness, who went through about 30 registers to show this jury that never was one of those gas cans returned for cash or credit, even customer service. How many times do you do a return and they shovel you off to some office and you have to wait in line at customer service?

It didn`t happen. Just like this shelf, Beth Karas. That`s the point. Her credibility is shot.

KARAS: Right. Right. The gas cans, the purchases of gas, now the shelving, the photos, which I`m sure we`ll discuss about her hair color -- she kept saying she was a brunette in May. (INAUDIBLE) she wasn`t a platinum blonde, but she was lighter in May than she was on the day she killed Travis Alexander.

GRACE: Back to the shelf. Take a listen to what the jury had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Was there any record of a gun registration under Travis`s name?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there was not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Would there have been any significance to measure all of the shelves since Jodi stated she only used the bottom to get to the very top shelf?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. And that`s why I focused my measurements just on that back row.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Were any of the shoes out of place when detectives arrived on the scene?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing appeared out of place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "To your knowledge, did either of Travis`s current roommates at the time own a gun?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "What would you say is the approximate width of the end shelf unit, where Ms. Arias claims the gun was located?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The shelves themselves are approximately 36 to 38 inches long. They`re about 16 inches in depth. And the shelf itself is about three quarters of an inch thick.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Jodi testified that she helped Travis put some things in the attic. Did you find anything at all stored in the attic?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we found nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Is the floor of the attic capable of supporting boxes?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are beams in the attic and you can put stuff on the beams, but the rest of it is drywall. So if it was a light object, I suppose you could put something there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Could you tell if anything had ever been stored in the attic?"


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Where is the opening to the attic located?"

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s one in the closet area, in that area.


GRACE: Out to you, Matt Zarrell. By the end of the jury`s questioning about these shelves, what impression did it leave you with?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, it is clear from these jury questions, from the jury questions to Arias, to LaViolette, to Samuels, they do not believe her story. They do not believe -- they notice nothing was out of place. They asked yesterday about the camera, how only the sex photos were deleted from the camera. They are noticing the inconsistencies in her story.

GRACE: What specifically about the shelves did they say, Matt Zarrell?

ZARRELL: They want to know as the -- has -- was -- one of the questions they asked was would there been significance to measure all the shelves because Flores only measured the shelf in question. He said, no, it wouldn`t have been significant. So in other words, the jury only focused on what he measured, which was what was important.

GRACE: Everybody, when we come back, the shocking claim by Jodi Arias that she was pregnant by Travis Alexander.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seeing her lie after lie...

ARIAS: I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. I didn`t even think I was holding the trigger.

MARTINEZ: And that`s (INAUDIBLE) lying, right?


MARTINEZ: That`s not true, right?

ARIAS: That`s not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lie after lie after lie. It`s just -- it`s gross.

MARTINEZ: All of these lies, ma`am, are meant for your benefit, so that you can escape responsibility.

ARIAS: Yes, so I can escape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But is it wrong to want the perpetrator to get the needle?"

ARIAS: If I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just, like, Oh, I`ll make up anything to save my life.

ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in the meantime, smile, say cheese.


GRACE: And to add icing on the cake, we now learn a major bombshell from behind bars, Jodi Arias writing a tell-all book, planning to cash in on her infamy. And not only that, on top of all the other lies, she now claims she was pregnant by Travis Alexander.

Joining me right now, senior editor of "The National Enquirer," author of "Out for Blood" coming out in September -- in this week`s "Enquirer," they dig deep. Mike Walker, what can you tell me, first of all, about the claim that she was pregnant by Travis Alexander?

MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER" (via telephone): You want that first? OK. She claims that she was pregnant. She says that she lost the baby. She gives no details how, the source that we have, she told this to, not how she lost the baby. But she said she lost it. It was very painful, of course. She felt terrible.

And she said his reaction devastated her. He was so cold-hearted about it. He felt -- she felt as though he`d stabbed her in the heart. And she says it, you`ll pardon the expression, killed her to see how he could turn against her and treat her so horribly.

GRACE: And Mike Walker, were there any details, such as when the baby was due? Was it a boy or a girl? What, if anything specifically, did Travis Alexander say?


GRACE: Was it an accidental pregnancy? Nothing. Like everything else, it`s just vague story she...

WALKER: Like everything else...

GRACE: ... throws out there.

WALKER: ... these big, broad strokes, yes.

GRACE: All right. And of course, it never appeared in her journal and she never told anybody about it, just like the abuse, right?

WALKER: That`s exactly right, yes, just suddenly has popped up along with some other rather bizarre tales that she has -- that we have uncovered.

GRACE: What can you tell me about this tell-all book she`s working on behind bars, Mike Walker?

WALKER: She believes, as you know, this vicious little cookie, that she is going to defeat everybody in the end. Her belief in herself is -- is -- well, it`s psychopathic, is what it is. But she believes she`s going to get out of jail. And she knows that when he gets out of jail, she`s not going to have any money. So to that end, she is now laboriously penning on legal pads in her cell, a book that she is going to...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait a minute! Mike walker, you know what the state can do, if this is true? They can do a search warrant on Ms. Thing and get that book and use it against her if there`s anything in it evidentiary-wise.

WALKER: Sorry.



WALKER: That`s what we have been told by our source, who`s always been accurate to this point. As you know, you`ve seen her in the courtroom jotting things down, erasing them, sketching, et cetera. She has pals who are helping her rake in up to $3,000 apiece, Nancy, for drawings that she`s making on these legal pads during her trial. She`s selling them on line, or her pals are...

GRACE: Three thousand dollars apiece.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and taking your calls, camped outside that Phoenix courthouse in the murder trial of Jodi Arias. This week`s "Enquirer" -- with me, Mike Walker. The title of your article says "Jodi Arias Goes Psycho." I`m a little afraid to ask. Explain.


WALKER: Well, Nancy, what she has brought up this time is almost beyond belief. We`ve seen the pictures that she took, you know, in the shower, right? All of a sudden, she is now saying in this book that she is writing, that she is scribbling on legal pads in her cell, that Travis had a twisted sort of fascination with the movie "Psycho" by Alfred Hitchcock, starring, of course, Janet Leigh, and that famous shower scene in which she was slashed to death.

He told her that he was sexually turned on by that scene and he wanted to recreate it in the shower. She claims that he was sexually aroused. They went into the shower. They had the knife. They were naked. And then she says -- and again, without any details to speak of -- he started roughing her up and things got out of hand.

GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing video from "Psycho" from Paramount Pictures. Here`s the problem with that big, fat lie. She was clothed. We saw that in the pictures. So that scenario is completely impossible, Mike Walker.

WALKER: Are you suggesting this woman is lying?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever use phrases with you, like that you`re the ultimate slut in bed?


MARTINEZ: Do you know -- if he did use that language with regard to somebody else, do you know what the other person`s participation may have been?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever call you a whore?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A three-hole wonder.


MARTINEZ: Do you know anything about his sexual activities and whether or not the defendant was participating in these sexual activities with him?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever tell you the way you moan is like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm?



GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live and bringing you the latest in the Jodi Arias murder one trial. That sound you were just playing, Justin, I will never forget, this nice lady that used to date Travis Alexander was on the stand. And they are asking her all about their sex life. And Martinez, you remember this, Jane, he shows no mercy. This is his witness. He`s like, let`s get this straight, is it anal, is it oral? What is it, in the parking lot? Is it at Starbucks? What are we talking about sex exactly? And this poor lady was just mortified on the stand. Anyway, the significance of Deanna Reid cannot be lost. Can it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: No, it can`t. And I saw a female juror just humiliated by that questioning that Deanna was going through, but Nancy, I firmly believe that she wanted the character of Travis Alexander to get out, and I think that she was proud to be on that stand to be able to give that jury the truth.

GRACE: Well, Jean, as I have told you many, many times, this ain`t no tea party. It is a murder one trial. There is no room for anybody to be embarrassed or humiliated, because you know what, you know what I also found interesting? Let me throw this to you, Beth Karas. The other day, we had -- this is after Jodi Arias gave me the finger in court and then tweeted "that bird was for you, Nancy Grace." Well, anyway, her friend came on the show, a very nice lady, who is apparently trying to be friends with Arias and be a good friend, at that, but what she wanted to get out, the main thing Arias wanted to get out was that she was not promiscuous. That`s the message she wants to send from jail.

Hey, I have got news for anybody. It doesn`t matter who she slept with. It doesn`t matter now. All it matters is this murder one trial, and whether she is going to get the death penalty. So I find all of the concerns misplaced. This is about the murder of a young man in the prime of his life. And all you mothers out there, you know what I`m talking about. You raise your son, you raise your daughter, you pour all of your love, all of your energy, think about them, dream about them, hope for them, pray for them, and then somebody like Jodi Arias comes along and murders them? No. I don`t care who slept with who. I care, Beth Karas, about the verdict that speaks the truth. And all this business about promiscuity, who cares?

KARAS: Right. And what this comes down to is really about two minutes in that bathroom and what happened in the bathroom and whether she was justified in what she did. What did he do to her that justifies her killing him three different ways? And she spent 18 days on the stand trashing Travis Alexander`s character, describing a violent Travis Alexander towards her in the hopes that the jury will believe she was justified in slicing him up.

GRACE: You`re right. You and Jean are exactly right. Unleash the lawyers.

Joining me tonight, Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor, senior attorney, National District Attorneys Association. Also with me, out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, defense attorney Peter Odom. All right, Peter, did you even get a little nervous when you started hearing those jury questions that they have for these witnesses, especially the one regarding those shelves? They don`t believe a word of what Arias is saying?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I know. Nancy, I thought you might have written some of those questions. I mean, this jury is definitely not buying anything that Jodi Arias is saying. They think she is a liar, clearly from the questions.

GRACE: Oopsie. Eleanor Odom, here is the thing. It`s one thing to get busted for lying. That`s one thing. It`s another thing to get busted for lying in the middle of a homicide investigation.

ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: Oops. And what`s interesting, Nancy, and as the prosecutor will probably point out in closing--


GRACE: Eleanor, oops.

E. ODOM: We have to have a little fun sometimes. But when you look at the shelves, and I think when the jurors asked the questions, not a thing is out of place. You can see how neat Travis Alexander was. Not a thing out of place. If she had gotten up on those shelves, and this is just one of many lies, those shoes would have been in disarray. There would have been a noticeable change in the shoes. So you`ve got lie after lie after lie. I mean, liar, liar, pants on fire. It is easy just to make a list of every lie. And why does she lie? She is trying to get out of trouble. This is just plain and simple.

GRACE: And did you two hear what Mike Walker said? Let`s go back to Mike Walker, senior editor, "National Enquirer." Author of "Out for Blood" coming out in September. Mike Walker, she claims, A, she was pregnant with Travis Alexander`s baby. B, what is the other thing she claimed? She is blaming it all on Alfred Hitchcock or some kooky theory that Travis wanted to reenact "Psycho."

WALKER: Reenact "Psycho," yes, naked, you know, the knife. And things got out of hand as she puts it.

GRACE: OK. So she got mad and stabbed him.


WALKER: -- future, writing a book as if she is going to be out in, you know, a month or two.

GRACE: And she says she is confident she is going to be acquitted and is planning to move to Europe and have a baby. Right?

WALKER: With her lesbian lover. And she has a sperm donor all lined up. As we told you when I broke that story on your show weeks ago.

GRACE: OK, Mike Walker, somehow I missed the lesbian lover part. Could you just -- what was that?

WALKER: She has a lesbian lover in jail. And she wants to live with this woman. And after she gets out, because of course she is going to get out. And the woman, by the way, has been in and out of jails on more or less minor charges. I mean, not real serious changes. So she is sort of an experienced jail bird, very attractive woman, we are told. And she wants to live with that woman when she gets out of jail, and they want to have a baby. And so Jodi has already lined up a male friend, someone who has visited her at the jail, who has agreed to impregnate her when she gets out. Not if she gets out, when she gets out. It`s quite amazing how she`s planned her life.

GRACE: I`m just letting it all soak in. I`m just letting you go, Mike Walker. I`m just drinking it all in. That she is -- and she, hey, Justin, see if you can find me that clip of her where she says that no jury will ever acquit her. I think she was talking to "48 Hours" or "Inside Edition." One of the two. Let`s go to the lines. (inaudible) in Pennsylvania. Him, dear, what is your question?

CALLER: It is more of a comment. If you look at the tracing of the reflection in Travis` eyes, if you look at the position of her elbows, it looks like one elbow is at chest level like she was holding the camera, and the other elbow is pointing upwards as if she was reaching behind her at her side to get something.

GRACE: Hold on. Out to you, Jean Casarez. We have heard a lot about what is reflected in Travis Alexander`s eyes. And according to the defense`s own witness, he said that that she was holding a camera and not a knife, right?

CASAREZ: Right. Right. Well, here is the thing. The prosecution and the defense stipulated -- jury never even saw that picture, because they stipulated that when the picture of Travis was taken, there was only a camera in her hand.

GRACE: Out to Jesse MacPherson, friend of Travis Alexander, also knows Jodi Arias. Thanks so much for being with us, Jesse. How is all this sitting with you?

JESSE MACPHERSON, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: It`s just a wild chase at this point. And we started seeing the lies from the beginning and they have just continued to perpetuate. Now it is like she is grasping for things out of air. And almost in this --


GRACE: Do you ever see a knife there? You and your girlfriend spent a week at his home. You slept in his bedroom, you used the bathroom, you walked in and out of his closet. Did you see a gun there?

MACPHERSON: Never. Never. You know, I mean, the stories she made up, she might as well have told us there was a leprechaun riding a unicorn in there at this point. I don`t know why she left that out.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there every a holster that was found?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. There was no holster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t it true that you told this jury that when you stood there and you pointed that gun at Mr. Alexander, that you found it wasn`t loaded? Was there any indications that any gun had ever been there? For example, were there any spare bullets of any caliber found throughout the house?


ARIAS: My understanding is that it was typically unloaded. It had been loaded at one time. I certainly wasn`t thinking of shooting him. I just wanted him to stop.


GRACE: We are back and taking your calls. Out to the lines, Linda in Washington. Hi, Linda, what is your question?

CALLER: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good.

CALLER: OK. This goes to premeditation. On "Dr. Drew`s" show, a man called in and said that he loaned Jodi the money for the road trip, and she was so desperate that she had to get down to Arizona to try to save her relationship. I was wondering if that would go towards premeditation?

GRACE: Good question. What do we know if anything about that, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: I have never heard anything about that, that someone loaned her money? Jodi made a lot of deposits along the road as she was traveling from northern California to southern California, then go to Arizona, Washington Mutual was her bank and she made several cash deposits there. We haven`t heard about anybody giving her money, though.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Donna in Maryland. Hi, Donna, what is your question?

CALLER: Yes, Nancy, when Jodi was on the stand, didn`t she say that Travis bought a gun in the month of December or November? But in her journals, in February in the journal, she said he was thinking of buying a gun?

GRACE: Interesting. Beth Karas, do you know about that discrepancy there?

KARAS: You know, I don`t know about the February entry where he was thinking about buying a gun, but I haven`t been privy to all of her journal entries, so maybe that is there. I`m just not privy to it.

GRACE: Interesting about her talking about how he wanted to buy a gun. Depending on where he got it, finding a receipt, Travis Alexander is so neat and orderly, you know he would have a license for it. Not one trace of any possession of a gun in that home. But we can learn a lot by listening to what the jury has to say along these lines, the questions that they present the witness. Very quickly, before we go to the jury questions, to Dr. Kathryn Smerling, psychologist joining us out of New York. I would like to hear your thoughts on her claim that Travis Alexander wanted to reenact the "Psycho" scene.

KATHRYN SMERLING, PSYCHOLOGIST: I -- anything is possible. She has got a very vivid imagination. She is very bright and it is completely consistent with her psychopathic behavior. She is a borderline personality, she is psychopathic, and she also has the environment and all the different things that are going on to make her who she is.

I believe from all of the testimony that I am hearing that she was in a rage, that possibly she felt as though she was going to lose Travis, and she went to confront him. And whatever happened, her rage got out of control, her impulses -- which is consistent with a borderline personality -- started to take over. And that is probably her "Psycho" movie. She has had a lot of time to think about that in jail.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s go into the courtroom for those jury questions.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know the weight, height and shoe size of Ms. Arias at the time of her booking?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t recall exactly. I don`t know her shoe size. I believe she was about 5`5, 5`6``, 115 to 125 pounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears from the March 5, 2013 photo that the metal pins holding the closet shelves are round for the entire length of the pin. Is that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They are round.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there any signs of evidence found at Travis` house that he owned a gun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Travis` master closet was originally examined, were there any empty boxes or containers found on the top shelf that could have contained a gun?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Jodi were to stand with her arms pointing straight up into the air, do you know approximately what the distance would be from the ground to the tips of her fingers?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you checked -- you said the entrance to the attic, you mentioned the closet, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I believe so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to make sure are we referencing this closet or some other closet?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it is in this closet. There are a couple of different openings. I believe one is in another bedroom, as well, or out in the hallway. I`d have to look at the entire photos of the- -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you talked about the attic. Your report does not mention you checking the attic, so was it someone else who checked the attic?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it was under my supervision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under your supervision, OK. So when you asked the question about your observations of the attic, whether you could tell something had been stored there or not, you said you couldn`t tell.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that based on observations you made or observations someone else made?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Observations somebody else made. And that I was told. It is a basic construction, similar to any other house in that area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, again, you`re testifying to your perception of what someone else told you as opposed to what you saw yourself, just like you did with Dr. Horn, right?





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever use phrases with you like you`re the ultimate slut in bed?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was his reaction to (inaudible) I`m seeing somebody else?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was very respectful and totally understood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever see Travis hit Jodi or be in any way abusive to her?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, none whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever at any time scream at you and that sort of thing?


ARIAS: No jury is going to convict me.


ARIAS: Because I`m innocent. And you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.


GRACE: Today in court, more evidence regarding Jodi Arias` hair. Why, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: We saw brand new pictures because the rental car man on June 2 said she had blond hair. We saw pictures today through an expert witness, that it was June 3rd. It looks like she`s taking a picture of herself in a car. It is before she goes to Walmart, an hour before. She`s in Salinas. She said she had gone to a nail place to get her nails done in Salinas. Why then do you take a picture of your hair, Nancy? Maybe it wasn`t a nail salon, maybe it was a hair salon. There are no records.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Petty Officer Second Class Justin McNeley, 30, Wheat Ridge, Colorado. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal. Parents, Sharon and George, grandmother, Mary, stepparents, Glenn and Barbara. Brother Jared, sister Sharwa (ph), sons, Jacob and Christopher. Justin McNeley, American hero.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have some sort of documentation on that paper, on the receipt, the original receipt that the customer actually retains after?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe that when you took that gas can back, Walmart did not give you any written documents evidencing that or showing that?

ARIAS: I don`t recall. I didn`t fill anything out or any documents regarding that, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this five-gallon can that we now know it was a can, gas, was it ever returned for a refund on June 3rd of 2008?



GRACE: Straight out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, you looked up that journal entry, did you not, that the caller requested?

ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, I did. The journal entry was from -- we believe from February 1st, 2008. And I`ll read you a quote. It says, quote, "and he has the nerve to tell me to balance my checkbook. Nay, he didn`t just tell me, he screamed it at me, and then proceeded to say that he wants to get a gun and put it to his head and pull the trigger." That`s a lot different than the description of Travis` intention of saying I want to go out buy a gun, as in I just want to go own a gun, as opposed to the expression that we`re seeing here.

GRACE: You`re right. Out to the lines. Jay in North Carolina. What`s your question?

CALLER: It`s Joy, Nancy.

GRACE: It`s Joy. Hi, Joy. Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Yes. I heard a lot mentioned about it, but when Jodi called Detective Flores, one of the very first phone calls, she brings up about a check that she had written to Travis and payment for the car. She was asking him if it was going to be deposited because it would bounce, and he was telling her no. And I think there`s a little more to the car situation, where she was having to make payments, and the car she had pulled behind the U-Haul, had, I think the transmission came out of it. And I think he was pressuring her to pay for that car.

GRACE: I think, Jean Casarez, this was after Travis is already dead, right, and she`s leaving messages?

CASAREZ: Exactly right. So she`s trying to not implicate herself. She believes he`s alive, she wants to know, hey, you going to deposit the check?

GRACE: Cover her trail like nothing is wrong. Everyone, testimony is now over for the day. As we go to break, happy birthday to a special, special lady, San Diego friend, Barbara. She`s the mother of our superstar director, Bret. Happy birthday, beautiful. Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.