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Talking with First Responders and Eyewitnesses; Investigation into Bombers Backgrounds Continues

Aired April 26, 2013 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": Before April 15th, Tamerlan Tsarnaev's name was on a virtual alphabet soup of terror lists.

He was on this particular list. It's an updated form of the Treasury Enforcement Communications System or TECS.

He was on the watch list of the FBI's TSC. That's Terrorist Screening Center.

And we now know he was named on TIDE. It's another acronym, for Terrorist Identities Data-mart Environment under the National Counter- Terrorism Center.

Yet with all of these lists, with hundreds of thousands of people on these lists, apparently no agency was aware that this older brother had returned to the United States from Russia in July of last year.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano talked about this issue before a Senate committee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET NAPOLITANO, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I think the salient fact there, Senator, is that the FBI text alert on him at that point was more than a year old and had expired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me add to this. Because not only have we learned that Tamerlan Tsarnaev himself was listed on this TIDE list, so was his mother.

Joining me now from Memphis is Phil Mudd from the New American Foundation. He used to be counterterrorism official for the FBI and CIA, and, Mr. Mudd, welcome.

Now that we know that this elder, slain brother and his mother were both on this TIDE list -- actually, let me just back up and ask you, how should lists like this work in the first place?

PHIL MUDD, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL AT FBI AND CIA: You've got to understand you're talking about two different things here. One is an identity list. That is, if you're an analyst and you want to understand everything that the U.S. government might know about someone that's vaguely suspected of being involved in terrorist activity, that's TIDE, a big list of people.

It's not necessarily a watch list. It's hundreds of thousands of people about whom you might have some suspicion.

Separate from that is something like a watch list for aircraft. That is someone you might say is no fly. That person cannot get on an aircraft because they've been identified as a known terrorist. There are fairly few numbers of people on that second list.

BALDWIN: I'm looking down at my notes on this list. Approximately 700,000 people, although some could be, you know, duplicates, variations of spellings, et cetera, some people nefarious, some entirely innocent.

So how can, you know, authorities with so many people on one list keep track of it all?

MUDD: They keep track of it by setting standards for the people that you want to put on that list, but remembering, too, that those people aren't necessarily considered to be terrorists.

Those people aren't the same ones that you necessarily want to insist cannot get on an aircraft.

Those are people who might have tripped a wire a couple of years ago. You put information like date of birth, you know, over time if an analyst wants to look up whatever the U.S. government knows about someone that was vaguely suspicious years ago, they can go to the TIDE list.

But let's separate out a watch list and a list that simply is a compilation of identity information about suspected people.

BALDWIN: So then, with, let's say, this TIDE list, which we knew Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his mother was on, what's the red flag let's say for anyone on this list? What's the red flag for investigators to say something's not right here?

MUDD: I would say violence, something that suggests that the person is about to commit a crime or contemplating committing a crime.

But you're asking the right question now, and we're three minutes into it. That's the problem with this conversation across America the past few days.

The question is, even if this person's name were tripped and you went to talk to him, what is he going to tell you? He's going to say, I'm going to visit my family.

You're going to ask him maybe about what happened, the conversations when the FBI talked to him a while ago.

He's going to say I visited my family before. Yeah, I look at stuff on the Internet. I believe in America. I believe in American values.

My question would be not whether he's on a list, but if he had tripped it, what would you have done?

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Well, I'm glad we got to that question. We're all sort of sorting through what these lists signify, how they're supposed to work and what those red flags are.

Phil Mudd, I appreciate you so much for helping us understand this issue now.

And speaking of this investigation, we are now hearing what crews are looking for in this landfill near the surviving suspect's college dorm at UMass Dartmouth.

That revelation, plus a debate here in Boston over what to do with the older suspect's body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to Boston. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

CNN has just learned investigators again are searching this landfill. This is a landfill at UMass Dartmouth near the younger suspect's dorm room here. This landfill that they're searching is where he was spotted just after the bombings two Mondays ago.

Earlier this week, investigators were there. They were scouring for receipts. This time, they're looking specifically for his laptop.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is now 40 miles from where I stand here in Boston. He is in this prison because overnight, cloak of darkness, he was moved from Beth Israel Deaconess in Boston here to this federal prison camp that holds detainees who also need medical care.

All the while, his brother's body is still sitting at the medical examiner's office. It is still unclaimed, a week and a half after his death.

The Muslim community here in the greater Boston area, they're split on whether Tamerlan Tsarnaev deserves a proper Muslim funeral.

And earlier, Jake Tapper and I spoke to two different imams here in Boston. One says he should. One says he shouldn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IMAM TALAL EID, ISLAMIC INSTITUTE FOR BOSTON: This man is a murderer, OK? He killed people in cold blood.

And I'm not saying that to please anyone, to please people. I'm standing on the rules and the teachings of Islam, where the Koran considered the killing of innocent person is equal to the killing of the whole of mankind.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: While he was a student, a fellow imam told me he would support a Muslim funeral.

Coming up, a special treat, my new favorite Bostonian and "Boston Globe" columnist Kevin Cullen joining me with a nice guest here.

This is Edzo Kelly, Tower Ladder 17. We're talking after this quick break.

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BALDWIN: Here in Boston, you're looking at live pictures on this beautiful Friday afternoon of messages that those who have decided to come down here to the heart of Boylston Street just a block from where the explosions happened to take a moment, reflect, write some messages to the victims, to people many of these folks didn't know at all, but they wanted to pay tribute and this is just exactly how they have chosen to do it now that Boylston Street has been reopened.

But memories of terror here -- what is it now? Two weeks? Two weeks -- still remain.

"Boston Globe" columnist Kevin Cullen is with me and first responder Edzo Kelly join me here as well. Gentlemen, good to see you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gentlemen?

BALDWIN: Gentlemen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, well, we'll take it.

BALDWIN: You'll take it, right? I feel like we're thick as thieves now, I've seen you so much here.

Let me begin with you, though, Edzo. You're based just, what, a stone's throw -- your house is that way?

EDZO KELLY, FIRST RESPONDER: A couple of blocks that way, Columbus and Murphy.

BALDWIN: And take me back to two Mondays ago.

KELLY: My wife was running the marathon and I had my kids running around the firehouse.

I was working that night, so when my wife finished working, she was going to take the kids home.

My company is Engine 7, Tower Ladder 17. Sounds like one of them's coming down the street now.

We're up on a call at about Carmen-Exeter when the bombs went off.

So when my wife -- she was right here at Boylston and Berkeley -- made it to the firehouse, I grabbed my gear. Myself and a kid named Campanelli (ph) from Ladder 24 who'd just finished the marathon, we grabbed our gear and ran up here.

And just in the time, it took us -- they did such a good job between the doctors , nurses, the firefighters, the police officers and the EMTs on scene, and all the great citizens that stepped up that day, that they had all the victims already in the triage tent, being worked on and transported to the hospital.

So ...

BALDWIN: And you said it was the victims' courage that so many of your colleagues were stunned by.

KELLY: I talked to Lieutenant Joe Roach (ph), who is the commander of Ladder 15, on marathon Monday, which is right up here on Boylston. They were right on top of it. And Joe told me what struck him was the courage of the victims, that they were very brave that day.

And we want them to know that we were with you on marathon Monday and we're going to be with you for the long haul. We're all in this together. We love you. We're Boston strong and we're proud of you.

BALDWIN: Kevin Cullen, you've been writing all these pieces for "The Globe." And I know that you are over mentioning these two suspects. You're over it.

KEVIN CULLEN, COLUMNIST, "BOSTON GLOBE": I can't wait.

First of all, it's great that I can't pronounce their names because it is going to make it a lot easier to forget them.

We're going to hear a lot about these guys coming, but you know what? I don't want to hear about them. Let somebody else worry about them.

I want people to remember names like Eddie Kelly (ph). I want people to remember names like Shawn O'Brien (ph), like Tommy Campbell (ph). Those are firefighters who ran towards the bomb.

I want them to remember the names of the women from district 4, the police station who dove toward the crowd after the bombs went off.

I want them to remember all those names, the EMS guys that drove in there.

And I want them to remember the names of the cops in Watertown, Mass state police, Watertown P.D., Boston P.D.

I want them to remember Danny Linskey, the chief of this police department here in Boston.

As Ed and I said the other night when we saw them, we've never been more proud of those guys.

Remember Dan Linskey's name. Remember Billy Evans (ph), "Super" Billy Evans (ph). Remember Danny Keilar's (ph) name. Remember all these names. Forget those other names. BALDWIN: I was sitting with you last night in Dorchester. And I think one thing we can share from the conversation was we were talking about some of the first responders and a firefighter who hasn't really gotten out yet, who still is picking the blood from his fingernails.

CULLEN: Well, he was that first night, but he has gotten out because these guys take care of their own. The firefighters in this town take care of their own.

And the busiest cop this week in Boston is a great sergeant. His name is Brian Fleming, and he runs their stress unit and he will help anybody.

And that's the other thing we want to get out to our first responders. It ain't weakness. If you're feeling it a week later, two weeks later, you've got to get help there.

And Eddie's people are fabulous. The fire department ...

BALDWIN: They're getting help?

KELLY: They are. We're all in this together. That's the message, you know?

Everyone's hurt. We were attacked, but they could never beat us. This is the cradle of liberty. You can't rock our cradle. You can't wake us up. We're coming to get you.

You know, if there's any message to be learned here, is that if you're going to kill innocent women and children in this city, you better get ready to duck because we're coming to get you.

CULLEN: And to quote David Ortiz ...

BALDWIN: We can't quote him. We can't quote him.

KELLY: The message is loud and clear, though.

BALDWIN: On that note, there is really nothing I can say.

We'll be right back here in Boston.

KELLY: Thank you.

CULLEN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Can't repeat that. Can't repeat that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: here in Boston, on this Friday, many of us here at CNN, producers, photographers, reporters, anchors, we have been here, basically, since two Mondays ago.

And so many of us have talked to people touched by the tragedy at the marathon finish line. And I just wanted to share one moment with you with a 41-year veteran firefighter here in Boston, specifically in Dorchester.

His name is Charlie Buchanan, Jr., and here was part of his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BUCHANAN, BOSTON FIRE DEPARTMENT: I saw little girl that another guy grabbed. Her leg was severed on the right leg.

And behind her was a little person that had to be this little boy that they talked about, and we couldn't do anything for him. His name was Martin. And we put a sheet over him just out of respect for him.

BALDWIN: So you knew ...

BUCHANAN: So then we went back to work ...

BALDWIN: You knew immediately when you saw that little boy, he wasn't going to make it.

BUCHANAN: He was dead. Yes, ma'am. He was dead.

BALDWIN: Was that little girl who you saw with part of her leg missing, was she able to talk to you or was she just crying?

BUCHANAN: The little girl that was -- actually, I believe, a Mass Port firefighter had her and we stopped an ambulance and the ambulance was full.

But we said, you have to take this girl. And they were great. They were Boston EMS.

And this firefighter said, you know, she needs a tourniquet. We got a tourniquet small enough to -- her leg is my -- as big as your arm, all right?

So they put her inside the ambulance, but as you say, the only thing that I could see and see to this day were her little eyes looking up at me. That's it, all right?

And me thinking, thinking about my own grandson, Malachi. And my Malachi is the same age as this young girl, who was six-years-old, who is -- first thing he did was give me a big hug when I went home.

BALDWIN: So you're thinking of Malachi as you're looking into this little girl's eyes. You describe this day as a bad day, Charlie. You've been doing this for 40 years.

BUCHANAN: Yes, ma'am.

BALDWIN: Was it the worst day you've ever seen?

BUCHANAN: It's the worst day of my career. Yes, it is, you know?

I can still see this little girl. I still see that little boy. I know people that know this little boy. He is a Boston resident, all right? He doesn't live far from this firehouse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Before I go, let me tell you this. Folks are a little on edge today -- not in Boston, I mean New York City -- after investigators revealed the suspected marathon bombers were on their way to attack Times Square.

It is especially chilling today for the hero vendor who helped stop that bombing in 2010.

Richard Roth caught up with him and got his take on this latest terror plot.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, I'm here in the crossroads of the world, Times Square.

New York City keeps a closer eye than ever on people here in Times Square. There are security cameras from New York City police, from various hotels, that totally are around the whole zone.

Of course, three years ago, a man tried to blow up a car inside Times Square. Duane Jackson was here at that time.

You were the one who saw this van smoking. How did you notice that?

DUANE JACKSON, TIMES SQUARE STREET VENDOR: Well, you know, I've been here 15 years, and in this business you always keep your eyes open because you never know what's going on in New York city.

ROTH: What do you think of the latest report that the Boston bombers might have come here spontaneously to detonate something?

JACKSON: It certainly sends a chill down my back, partially because I was fortunate to graduate from Boston University and lived there for four years.

But the incident we had here on May 1st was another indication that our enemies are right here with us, and unfortunately, you know, my heart goes out to the people in Boston, especially the graduate student who lost her life.

ROTH: And the smoking van was across the street?

JACKSON: Yes, it was right across the street. The keys were inside of it. The car was running, which is one of the main things that got my curiosity up.

And it used to be a bank across the street. So when I saw the car running and walked over to it, not knowing exactly what the contents that were in that car at that particular time, but who leaves the car running on a quarter-to-7:00 on a beautiful Saturday evening in Times Square?

JACKSON: Well, that, of course furthers the policy of New York that is heard elsewhere. If you see something, say something.

(END VIDEOTAPE)