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Defense to Rebut Diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder

Aired April 26, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Good evening. I am Jane Velez-Mitchell.

The Jodi Arias trial reaching a climax. Closing arguments are right around the corner. But next up the defense team`s very last shot called the surrebuttal. That`s right. Another surprising twist. The judge is giving Jodi`s defense team another chance at bat, another chance to convince the jury.

The defense expected to call psychologist Dr. Robert Geffner -- there he is -- to shore up two defense expert witnesses. You may remember Dr. Richard Samuels and Alyce LaViolette. Who could forget them? They say Jodi suffers from posttraumatic stress disorder and is a battered woman. The goal of the defense? To discredit prosecution psychologist Janeen DeMarte, who said Jodi has borderline personality disorder.

But should the defense make this their very last argument? Is this a smart move?


SANDRA ARIAS, JODI`S MOTHER: ... to do a psychiatric evaluation.

JANEEN DEMARTE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. Unstable in interpersonal relationships, unstable emotions and an unstable sense of identity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me that at that one point that he had a stalker.

DEMARTE: The tendency to overstep boundaries.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you believe in your expert opinion that Jodi was a battered woman or is a battered woman?


WILLMOTT: Travis left Jodi with no other option but to defend herself.

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: "He makes me sick, and he makes me happy."

DEMARTE: It`s a tendency to have disrupted relationships due to a tendency either idealize someone or devalue them and have a tendency to switch between the two.

J. ARIAS (via phone): Seriously, you make me feel like a goddess.

WILLIAM ARIAS, JODI`S FATHER: Jodi would not let me say anything about (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

J. ARIAS: If I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

"I love Travis Alexander so completely that I don`t know any other way to be."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Plus, never-before-seen photos of victim Travis Alexander given to us exclusively by one of his dearest friends, and that friend joins me tonight in just a little bit.

But first, straight out to my expert legal panel. Borderline personality disorder. To me it fits Jodi Arias to a "T." Should the defense be trying to convince the jury she doesn`t have it? After all, if the jurors think she has a mental illness, could that stop them from giving her the death penalty? Is the defense shooting itself in the foot? Let`s debate it, starting with Stacey Honowitz for the prosecution.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Listen, the defense is going to try to do anything in their power to counter what the state psychologist said. She came off so strong. She was able to give examples of her personality. She was able to, to a "T," fit all of the factors that went into her life into what this borderline personality disorder is.

I think what they have to be careful of is going too deep into it and trying to say that he is a battered woman and there`s posttraumatic stress disorder, because certainly her earlier two witnesses failed to bring that across.

They certainly showed the jury that they spent too much time with her, that ethically, they did things they weren`t supposed to do. So I just think the defense, at this point, has to do something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, Rene Sandler, if the jury thinks she`s mentally ill, which a borderline personality disorder is no mild thing. That is -- you`re really out there, cuckoo for "Cocoa Puffs." Why should the defense try to convince the jurors, "Oh, no, she doesn`t have this mental illness" when mental illness is precisely what could save her from getting the death penalty?

RENE SANDLER, ATTORNEY: Look, it`s a double-edged sword, but what the doctor for the state has done is put certain things at issue that the defendant must rebut. The self-defense theory here is critical to an acquittal, or if the defense is not accepted by the jury, we`re talking second-degree murder, not first.

So anything that they can do to rebut what the state`s expert said about intent, about memory, about her profile is relevant and critical to this defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Monica Lindstrom for the prosecution. Sometimes I think they argue for the sake of arguing. There was one time this week where they were both questioning the same witness, Travis`s ex-girlfriend, and asking the same questions to prove different points.

MONICA LINDSTROM, ATTORNEY: You know, the defense really has to bring somebody out because the state ended on such a strong note. Their witnesses just tore apart the defense in every way possible.

So they`re looking to get anybody in that chair that has some credibility that can make some strong point so that they can end this trial and give the jury some reason to do something other than first-degree murder, because as of right now, the jury has nothing from the defense, just nothing. The state blew the entirety fence out of the water.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. They`re going to do something, but is this the thing to do?


LINDSTROM: There is nothing else to do. There`s nothing else to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they need the last word.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who else can they call?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They need to get in that last word so the last thing that the jurors hear is something positive for the defense. It`s a coup that they get to do a surrebuttal. That`s a victory.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, we just saw Deanna Reid, the ex-girlfriend of Travis Alexander. Again, the prosecution is saying, "He never hit you, did he?"


And the defense is saying, "He never called you dirty names, did he?"


They`re both asking her the same questions, but they`re trying to prove different things. It seems -- I know, but it seems like sometimes you pick and choose your battles. Is this the battle for the defense to choose when people do have, in general, sympathy for people who are mentally ill, and borderline personality disorder is a mental illness?

Let`s go to the phone lines. Amelia, Tennessee. Your question or thought, Amelia.

CALLER: OK. My comment is, I must say, Jodi is whacked. She`s out there. And in my opinion, the only dirty little secret was consensual secrets of what went on behind a closed door.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you are absolutely right that this was a consensual relationship. And Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox," how appropriate. She`s trying to, in essence, her critics say -- and this is a good point -- take a consensual relationship - - it may have been kinky, may have been S&M, may have been dominance and submission, but it was consensual and she was eager to be involved in it -- and turned it into abuse.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: What she`s trying to do is explain her perception of this relationship, Jane, because under her perception she actually was the victim and was being persecuted, because she didn`t have a voice.

In other words, her abandonment issues were so huge, but she was so afraid to get her needs met, ask him to stop, tell him she didn`t want to do it a particular act. But now she`s trying to convince the jury that she had such a weak backbone and that somehow this was abuse. That`s the bottom line here.

Now, I also have to remind you, we`re spending a lot of time talking about mental illness, and this is not an insanity plea. This is a self- defense plea. And I think the jury is smart enough to know that, even if she is proven to have a borderline personality disorder, she`s still guilty. Now, are they trying to get compassion for her?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are absolutely right. Clinically insane is when, if you plead not guilty by reason of insanity, you are so out there you don`t know the difference between right and wrong. That often applies to people who are hallucinating, who are hearing voices. Remember Andrea Yates, who was ultimately found not guilty by reason of insanity. She heard voices of the devil, the angels, telling her to do this, to save her kids by killing them. She wasn`t in touch with reality at all.

This is not the case. This woman is in touch with reality enough to rent a car, change her hair color, according to prosecutors, and drive 1,000 miles to, the prosecutor says, murder this man. She claims self- defense.

Now, the prosecutor says Jodi is a cold-blooded killer with borderline personality disorder. But in the police interrogation tapes, her mother says that her friends would call Jodi`s mom and warn her that Jodi might be bipolar. She seems to display symptoms of both disorders. Check this out.


S. ARIAS: And she would call me in the morning all happy, and call me an hour or two later in tears, crying and sobbing. I had one friend call me in the middle of the night and even called a hotline for bipolar people.

DEMARTE: I diagnosed her, on Axis 2, with borderline personality disorder.

Unstable interpersonal relationships, unstable emotions and an unstable sense of identity. Fear of abandonment. The tendency to overstep boundaries by spying on him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Walsh, psychologist, to me there`s a lot of overlap between borderline personality and bipolar disorder, which used to be called manic depressive -- high highs, low lows. Well, they say the same thing about borderline personality disorder sufferers.

WALSH: Well, it`s not so much just the highs and lows. Borderline would be more -- I`m sorry, bipolar would be somebody who has extreme lows of depression and extreme highs of euphoria, and in the state of euphoria, by the way, they feel great. They just drive everybody else crazy.

Borderline is a little different, because it`s about their perception of others, so they have a real black or white idea of people. And they`re unable to sort of bind those two ideas.

You know how when you have a fight with somebody you love, Jane, even though you`re really angry at the time, there`s a piece of you that still remembers you`re in a relationship and you love that person. A borderline person, the person becomes the angel and the devil in their eyes, and they actually believe they`re being persecuted against when that person is the devil. That`s the big difference.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s what I`m saying. You just proved my point. Should the defense be trying to convince the jury that she doesn`t have this disorder? Well, we`re just getting started. Now, in a couple of seconds, I`m going to talk to one of Travis`s closest friends, who has given us new exclusive video of this man who can no longer speak for himself. His friends are speaking for him.


ARIAS (via phone): Remember the first time that you and I grinded? And it goes like I (EXPLETIVE DELETED), and you`re like, "Whoa, I (EXPLETIVE DELETED)," and I looked around and there is just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- it`s all over and it was so hot.




W. ARIAS: When she was in eighth grade she got busted for growing marijuana in Tupperware by putting it on top of the roof. After that, she was sort of like something turned in her head that we were nosy parents and she was going to search everything she has. And she hid everything she`s had ever since then.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Parents, both of them, Jodi`s mother and father, saying they had fears that their daughter was bipolar, and their friends told them that she was seriously disturbed. Tonight, we`re showing you exclusive never-before-seen photos of Travis Alexander. Video given to our show by Travis`s dear friend, Josh Denne. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling a little dirty today?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling a little dirty?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Josh is joining me now.

Josh, thank you so much for giving us these images. And we also have some photos that we`re going to show as we talk.

It`s really important, in my opinion, for Travis to be seen by everyone as the person he was outside of this very, very gruesome trial, outside of this very toxic relationship. And we -- we appreciate you giving us this video.

Now, I understand you have the unique perspective, Josh, because you found out about Travis`s death when you were already in Cancun on the then- PrePaid Legal extravaganza that he was supposed to go on. And of course, a lot of people believe that he was killed by Jodi because he wasn`t taking her. He was taking another woman, Mimi Hall.

JOSH DENNE, TRAVIS`S FRIEND: Yes, you know, we were -- I will never forget. I was sitting in the Moon Palace pool, and Chris Sheetz (ph) came up and said, "Hey, have you heard the news?" I said no. And he said something had happened to Travis. He`s -- he`s no longer with us. There`s foul play. And instantly, instantly at that very moment I said Jodi Arias. I just -- in my heart I knew it. And Chris like -- is like, "Yes, that`s exactly how I feel. In fact, everybody -- Jacob Medford, all of us -- are feeling the same way, that Jodi had something to do with it," right from the start.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So tell us about the Cancun trip. I think that`s so significant. And essentially, it was a prize.

I actually talked to somebody I met here in New York, who is part of then-PrePaid Legal, now LegalShield, and said the Cancun trip is really the ultimate thing. It`s what you want to go on if you`re involved in this organization. Everybody gathers. It`s a big soiree. It`s very prestigious.

So certainly, if Jodi knew that he was taking someone else -- she claims, "Well, I wasn`t sure. I thought it was somebody who was like a babysitter." But if she did know that Mimi Hall was the one chosen to go by Travis on this trip, I think that would fan her flames of jealousy. What are your thoughts?

DENNE: I think 100 percent when she found out that she wasn`t the one that Travis was taking, that she at that moment planned to murder him. And it just -- it makes sense.

Her whole story of, you know, him keeping her a secret is absolutely absurd. Because you know, he took her publicly. You`ve now seen evidence of that in different videos. And he took her on the previous trip.

I mean, so when she found out she wasn`t going -- and now, yes, I understand this is more of a social type of a situation, a social hierarchy, if you will, or you know, being in that environment is a -- speaks volumes. And now that she`s not there, I think that just burned her deep inside and at that moment, she said, "All right, this is it. I`m going to -- I`m going to take him out."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And especially because she had used PrePaid Legal, as I`d like to say, a dating service. She claims she got into PrePaid Legal to make some money, because she was going into foreclosure with her previous boyfriend. She had credit-card debt up the wazoo. So she joined PrePaid Legal.

But then, as opposed to working on just getting clients, she ends up going out with -- well, let`s see, Abe Abdelhadi, John (ph) Dixon, and Ryan Burns, and of course, Travis Alexander, all of them connected to PrePaid Legal. What do you make of that, Josh?

DENNE: I can say -- I hear what the defense is saying about Jodi, and I heard Wendy talking earlier, you know, that she was a person who didn`t want to really express her feelings, who didn`t know. That wasn`t the Jodi I knew.

The Jodi I knew, she put out lots of sexual energy. She was -- she was just that type of girl. You know, I think she was shopping for an easy way out, personally. I think she latched onto Travis. He was this young, brilliant light of a man, who -- his career was just blossoming. You can see it from some of the videos. He`s a tremendous communicator. And he was a light, and he was shining. And she just grabbed onto him hoping that, you know, he would take her along -- along with him on the ride.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, you talked to Travis, and obviously, there were things that came out in this case, the sex phone calls, some of the texts. Are they different from the Travis you knew? And were you -- were you shocked at all by some of those conversations that the two of them had?

DENNE: No. I mean, look, how many conversations have -- have so many people had like that? It`s like how many people would like their sexual conversations with the people that they`re intimate with blasted all over the media for everyone to see? I`m sure everyone can say, you know, I`ve said things that I don`t want blasted everywhere.

It was consensual. You hear the tapes. Whatever they were saying was consensual. They`re both in agreement. They were both enjoying themselves on that. And that really, quite frankly, is none of my business or anyone else`s as far as I`m concerned. It certainly has nothing to do with this trial and the fact that Jodi Arias brutally murdered an amazing human being.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I think you make an excellent point. I think we all have to ask ourselves: how would any of us appear if every single e- mail or text we`d ever sent to somebody we`re having a relationship with was blasted out there, if every phone conversation, or a crucial phone conversation, was blasted? How would any of us look? And so it is a very, very tiny sliver. You make an excellent point.

Josh Denne, hang in there. Really great to get your insights. We`re going to have more on the other side and more debate from this week`s crucial testimony. We`re going to tell you also what`s coming up in the big week. Next week is the big week, the biggest week of all.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what you`re telling me about two people coming in or however many people coming in and letting you go, it`s just so far- fetched. I can`t believe it. Why would they do this to him? What were they arguing about? What did they say? What were the details?

J. ARIAS: They didn`t say a lot. They were white Americans, from what I could tell.




J. ARIAS: He crossed the room, and he started shaking me. He said, "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) sick of you." And he body-slammed me on the floor. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

It startled me, but it didn`t hurt. He started -- called me a bitch. He kicked me in the ribs.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jodi admits she killed Travis by stabbing him 29 times, slitting his throat, shooting him in the face. But the defense is trying to convince the jury Jodi acted in self-defense: "Oh, she was a battered woman who was abused by Travis Alexander."

Usually men that abuse have a track record, but Travis` ex-girlfriend, Deanna Reid, testified Travis never, ever degraded her sexually or beat her up.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Did he ever become verbally abusive to you?


J. ARIAS: And he`s just screaming angry.

MARTINEZ: Did he ever, in any of those disagreements, did he ever curse at you?

REID: No, never.

J. ARIAS: Said "I`ll (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you, bitch."

MARTINEZ: Would he ever call you names?

REID: No, he did not.

J. ARIAS: And he screamed I was a stupid idiot.

MARTINEZ: Did he ever strike you or physically advance on you or inflict any physical violence on you?

REID: No, never.

J. ARIAS: And he body-slammed me again.

REID: No, he was always a gentleman.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Expert panel, let`s debate it. That`s exactly what I was talking about. Both the prosecution and the defense essentially asking this witness, Travis Alexander`s ex-girlfriend, the very same questions. What`s up with that? And let`s start with Stacey Honowitz for the prosecution.

HONOWITZ: I know you find it so unbelievable, but it goes on in court all the time. Sometimes the prosecutor and the defense attorney ask the same questions, but they want a different interpretation.

Look, the case is not complicated. I think his friend Josh could give the closing argument, because I thought it was brilliant what he just said. The fact of matter: she was jealous. They`re trying to say she was battered. And so he`s asking and directing this previous girlfriend. He wants her to say, "Nothing ever happened with me," because the expert was saying there`s usually a track record with battered women syndrome, and here, look how he treated her. So that`s what the prosecutor wants to get out.

The defense asked the questions, because they want to say, "Hey, you can treat somebody different. Every relationship is different."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jay (ph) Johnson for the defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stacey is right. I mean, it`s this whole Madonna-whore complex. They`re trying to show double standard, that he treats this lady as a lovely man who`s a gentleman, and we have evidence he was not a gentleman for whatever reason to Jodi. We have e-mails. We have texts. We know he wasn`t a gentleman.

So why is one girl worthy of one treatment and the other girl worth of another? It`s sympathy for Jodi. And I think it was effective, quite frankly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Monica Lindstrom, prosecution.

LINDSTROM: She -- she was a very strong witness for both sides. I think that the state had to call her, because it needed to show how she was treated and another relationship with Travis Alexander.

But the defense got out the information it needed.

And I don`t think it`s a far leap for the jury to sit there and think, OK, he was nice with her and he maybe wasn`t nice with her, but does it really matter, because different relationships are just different relationships?


LINDSTROM: So it was a good witness. A strong witness. But it helped both sides.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rene Sandler, I don`t -- my mind cannot wrap my head around the idea of a witness being great for both sides.

SANDLER: Well, she actually was. But I`m going to say -- I`m going to go out on a limb and say it was a bad move for the state. It was an unnecessary witness. It was, in some ways, cumulative and irrelevant. What happened in her relationship with Travis some time ago wasn`t what happened here.

So I think when a witness could go either way, I think we can say safely not a good move for the state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it made Jodi look reasonable. I mean, Jodi got treated badly. This lady had the relationship Jodi wanted. It made it sympathetic, I think, for Jodi.

SANDLER: I agree. Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are just getting started. We`ve got more calls on the other side.

We`re also going to show you more photos from Josh Denne. You saw some video. Now on the other side we`re going to see photos never before seen of Travis Alexander. Stay right there.


MARTINEZ: When he was performing oral sex on you, you said he sure knew what he was doing. Do you remember saying that under direct examination? Do you remember that?

J. ARIAS: Yes.

MARTINEZ: So doesn`t it take one to know one?





ESTEBAN FLORES, POLICE DETECTIVE: "Obsessed" is the word they used. That`s the word I hear from everybody.

JODI ARIAS, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: What is he going to think if I am showing up at his house at 3:00 in the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She bawled her eyes out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She cried for two or three, four, five days.

ARIAS: It felt like I was a prostitute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I was a little more than a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with a heartbeat to you.

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM: There`s been many times when you`ve been like miserable, and I`ve like, raped you.

ARIAS: You make me so horny. I seriously think about having sex with you every day, several times a day. Like how it feels to have your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) inside of me.

He makes me sad and miserable and he makes me feel I look good and beautiful.


ARIAS: It doesn`t feel very good. And I felt like a used piece of toilet paper.

That is so debasing. I like it.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: As we barrel towards closing arguments next week and a verdict somewhere on the horizon, observers saying this is the most highly sexualized trial ever, ever broadcast on television. Jodi and Travis` steamy relationship has been front and center throughout the whole trial, often showing a volatile love/hate relationship according to some.

You know what; it characterizes, really, people have strong feelings. Let`s just listen to both sides. Listen as defense attorney, Kurt Nurmi, uses a couple of text message to try to paint Jodi as the victim.


KURT NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Was he assertive and aggressive with you in these e-mails, in these text messages?

ARIAS: Assertive, aggressive and authoritative.

NURMI: He also says in this message, "You`re the ultimate slut in bed." What does that mean to you.

ARIAS: Sometimes he would call mew that when we`re having sex.

NURMI: But how about, "Feeling like you`ve been raped but you enjoyed every delightful moment of it. Did you want to feel like you were being raped?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: But prosecutor Juan Martinez says not so fast. He is quick to point out that Jodi often initiated the raunchy texts and says she was eager to do things that were debasing. Listen


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: This is you sending him this text message right?


MARTINEZ: And in it you say "If you are a lucky boy and you promise to give me a good well-deserved spanking" at 9:58. What do you say to him?

ARIAS: I say "Thanks, baby, you are the best."

MARTINEZ: And if you do tell him that he is the best, isn`t this the same individual that you claim has just hit you in the side of the head, right?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So again, both sides trying to use the same evidence, the phone sex tapes, the texts to prove totally different things.

Let`s debate it. Who has been most effective, the prosecution or the defense in using the sex tapes, the phone calls that were surreptitiously taped, prosecutors say, by Jodi, although she claims he asked her to. And these raunchy texts -- who is using it to their advantage?

Starting with Monica Lindstrom for the prosecution?

MONICA LINDSTROM, FORMER PROSECUTOR: : I think the state hands down has the stronger edge on all of this because it`s showing that she is not a meek, mild-mannered woman. She wasn`t abused. She wasn`t victimized. She was a participant in this relationship. It was consensual. She had no reason to come into the court and try to say, "He abused me. He hurt me. I`m the good person here and he is the bad guy." Doesn`t work, this helps the state hands down.

JANET JOHNSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She has one reason. They were trying to put her to death. So she has a good reason and it`s Stockholm syndrome. It`s somebody who has gotten used to this condition. And in fact that was the role. That`s the Madonna whore complex. She`s not going to Cancun. She`s not going to be his wife.

The only thing she`s good for him is this role. And she is playing it up, because it kept him around and it did up until the end, it kept him around.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey, I think they should have used the Stockholm syndrome. That would have been better than going into a fog and not remembering the killing.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I mean the defense is so preposterous, quite frankly -- it really is. What you have here is a clear case of a girl who was used for sex. She was mad that she wasn`t going to be the marrying kind, and she took him out.

And so all these other things about her, post traumatic stress -- we don`t even when that came in. We don`t even know you`re talking -- when he was coming towards her, when the ninjas came in. It`s all based upon lies, and that`s what the prosecutor has to bring back in his closing arguments.

You`ve heard all these things about scales and personalities. Let`s get to the hard factual evidence in this case. Let`s bring you back to the gas cans, the traveling, the fact that she was consensual. She wanted to be with him. She stalks him. She has his e-mail.

These are all of the things that the jury has to be reminded of in closing arguments next week. And use their common sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rene Sandler, for the defense?

RENE SANDLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree in part with Stacey, and that`s just this one part, and that is the order of wounds here I think is what this case comes down to and I though that from the beginning. Did she shoot him first? Did she stab him first? What happened?

And that`s for the jury to decide. They have to reconcile that in order to get through whether this was intentional killing, whether it was second-degree murder, whether it`s manslaughter if they get the lesser included. So it`s going to come down to intent. And it`s going back to this crime scene and trying to understand it and reconcile it for this jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of the biggest moments for the week, Travis` ex, Deanna Reid, taking the stand and revealing that she and Travis had a secret sexual relationship. But that was only the only thing that she and Jodi may have had in common. listen to this and then we`re going to analyze.


MARTINEZ: Did he ever ask you to wear an outfit like that?


MARTINEZ: Did he ever curse at you?

REID: No. Never.

MARTINEZ: Would he ever call you names?

REID: No, he did not.

NURMI: Did he ever call you "whore"?


NURMI: A slut?




NURMI: Did he ever tell you how he wanted to tie you to a tree and quote (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?


MARTINEZ: At any point did he become physical, throw you down, put his hands on you in any way, shape or form?

REID: Absolutely not. We trusted each other and our relationship was not like that.

NURMI: Must have had a different relationship than he did with Miss Arias, correct?

MARTINEZ: Objection -- lack of foundation.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the point Wendy Walsh, psychologist is that Deanna said they were in love and people in love do have sexual activity. And that they had sexual activity and that they ended up -- or she at least ended up going to her bishop to talk about it, and the implication was that he did, too. So what do you make of that?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, while we don`t slam the victim too much here, we have to keep in mind that it was a very weird traumatic bond between Travis and Jodi, because Travis had some of his own chaos inside. He did definitely have an internalized kind of whore Madonna syndrome. And there we see the two ladies full framed in your split screen. And these are Travis acting out some of his internal conflicts, that`s what I see here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Again on the other side of the break, new, never-before-seen photos of Travis Alexander, courtesy of his dear friend, Joshua Denne who is going to talk to us tonight because Travis Alexander can`t.



ARIAS: The gun went off. I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. He lunged at me and we fell really hard against the tiles of the other wall. I did not notice he had been shot.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who is Jodi Arias? She is an enigma, appearing to different people to be different in personality. Take a look at this picture, never before seen. This is our guest, a very special guest, Josh Denne with Jodi Arias.

Tell us about this photo, where it took place and what your observations were of this woman.

JOSH DENNE, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: That was, I think, the first day that met her. I was speaking at an event, I believe in San Bernardino, and she`d come up to me afterwards and introduced herself and wanted to get a picture.

I immediately just felt something a little bit off with her. I couldn`t really put my finger on it. Certainly didn`t think it was this far off. But, you know, that was about as far as it went. And it must have been a year later that I saw her with Travis, you know, and they had - - they had a relationship going. That`s what that picture reminds me of.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you, you were with PPL at the time. And now it`s called Legal Shield but at the time it was Pre-Paid Legal. And again as I mention before, she seemed to use this business organization, where you`re supposed to get ahead and sell legal insurance as a dating service. Was there something inappropriate that you observed about the way she interacted in the PPL world?

DENNE: The only thing I saw about Jodi initially was that she did put out a lot of sexual energy. It did seem like she was shopping for someone to take care of her. That was my observation. I don`t know if that true or not, but that was the observation I had. And you know, I think when she linked up with Travis like I said previously, she saw a rising star and she just wanted -- she wanted to latch on to him and that`s what happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well Josh, I`m not blowing smoke, but you are a handsome guy, did she come on to you?

DENNE: You know she just said hi. I felt the sexual energy, you know, when someone stands up but I don`t know, I turned away from it. Quite honestly, I just felt a little strange. As you can see, you have seen it in the courtroom, and you have seen it on just her different stories, and you look at the "48 Hour" interview. And I think that`s the most honest description of Travis and her relationship in that interview right there.

But you can just see how she has this eerie, almost strange look about her. And that`s how I saw her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would say it`s kind of a Stepford look. I want to bring in Wendy Walsh, psychologist.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Josh is giving us some great insight. As one of our panelists said he should be doing the closing argument although prosecutor Juan Martinez is also doing a great job. But I think he is describing something that we can all sense but we`re finding it hard to put words to.

There`s a certain vacantness (ph) like a Stepford wife -- we all remember that famous movie where people were robotic, women were robotic.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s a robotic, vacant quality, a lack of affect, or sort of not a lot of deviation. It`s kind of like that -- what am I trying to say?

WALSH: Yes. The textbook term for that is lack of affect. Meaning when I listen to those sex phone tapes especially and I brought this up before, I don`t hear any real emotion in the voice. I don`t feel that she is really pleasuring herself or thinks that she is pleasuring him. She`s almost reciting rote memory. "Oh that`s so debasing" -- you know like a little robot.

And this is because she is trying to use sexuality like an Academy award winning actress in a way, because she knows her audience is men and she knows that if she can perform that role she can suck them in. Men, actually, bless their little hearts, can look past some of that vacantness -- not our guest today obviously -- and they will become aroused and some of them sometimes have trouble making clear, easy, good, smart decisions. Do you get what I am saying?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very good description of Jodi Arias.

We`re going to take a short break and back with your calls. Faye, I know you have been patient, we will get you on the other side.


MARTINEZ: Once she begins stabbing him, there`s not a situation where she stops. She killed him three times over.

I am asking you who is making the money, aren`t I? Nothing here is to make the prosecutor happy. Do you understand that? Why don`t you want to answer my question? So when was the third time you met her? Sir, am I asking you about the evening? I`m not, am I?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Time for our Pet of the Day. Send your pet pics to

Sophie, look at those big brown eyes and that button nose. Oh, Haley Mae -- you`re stunning. What a movie star you are. Gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. And Scooby -- he says I like hanging out indoors so what. Make something of it -- my choice, I can. And Ramco and Daisy says we have the whole house. The humans live with us.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: More controversy over the defendant, Jodi Arias` actions. She is allegedly tweeting again. Take a look at it. Apparently through a friend, posting art for sale, one piece called "blissful ignorance", which is ironic considering she claims -- initially claimed to be ignorant of what happened to Travis Alexander. Now, of course, she has admitted she did the killing.

And again she`s got -- this is bizarre -- more than 33,000 followers on twitter. What`s that about? Again, a lot of people very unhappy with this art.

Faye, Ohio, 20 seconds for a comment?

FAYE, OHIO (via telephone): I`m disturbed about the defense. My brother Garrett Cosey was murdered back in 1999 and we never figured out who killed him. And it`s just been disturbing to me the defense always making up excuses for Jodi. I believe that Jodi had broken into Travis` house while he was in the shower. I don`t believe Travis had any idea that that lady was in his house while he was in the shower. She was (inaudible) off maybe somewhere, snapping pictures of him. And what he realized --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say, my compassion and heart goes out to you. They know she was there. They`ve got her on camera, the picture tells the story.

Stay right there. We`ve got more on the other side. A little surprise for you.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, little Rico. We have some big news tonight. More backlash against the move by a number of states to pass AG Gag bills. Those bills would make it illegal to use undercover videos like the ones you`re looking at right here to expose animal abuse on the nation`s factory farms.

But now animal lovers everywhere speaking out -- brand new ads like this one, take a stand against proposed AG Gag laws in the state of Tennessee. Do you live in Tennessee?

The Humane Society`s president Wayne Pacelli joined with Ellen DeGeneres to speak out against the AG Gag bills.


ELLEN DEGENERES, TALK SHOW HOST: These kind of undercover cameras catch a lot of things, you know. It`s important to keep that, you know, that going.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And today we have another very powerful voice speaking out for animals. You know Rory Freedman from her wildly famous runaway best seller "Skinny Bitch". Rory has a new book called "Beg", a radical new way of regarding animals. I am so thrilled to have the amazing Rory Freedman here today.

Rory, you and I love our pets but we are an entire nation of pet lovers. Americans love their pets. But the vast majority of animals that we often never speak about are not pets. They`re, for example, the 9 billion pigs and cows and chickens on factory farms -- 9 billion with a "b". How can Americans expand their love for Americans to those and malls?

RORIE FREEDMAN, AUTHOR, "BEG": It`s a great question, Jane. And it`s one that I talk about extensively in my new book "Beg" and one that I spoke a lot about in "Skinny Bitch". And it`s easy for us to love the animals that we live with and the animals that we see every day in our own homes. But we often forget that there are animals in our every day lives that we may not meet face to face but that we are affecting with our daily choices. And there`s a lot of things that we can be doing in our own every day lives to make a difference for these animals.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the first thing is to become aware and have the courage to bear witness. Yes, folks at home, it takes courage to look at these images, but it is important, bearing witness is really part of the solution. Now I talked to Wayne Pacelli who`s president of the Humane Society of the United States just the other day right on this show about these laws that would criminalize undercover videos of abuse on factory farms. Here`s what Wayne had to say.


WAYNE PACELLI, PRESIDENT, HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES: They really do threaten what we do in terms of our undercover investigation. I mean our investigators don`t disrupt anything, they do their job, but they also record what`s going on.

You know, these spokespersons from agribusiness say, well, they don`t want HSUS to manipulate this. These are pictures, they speak a thousand words. We are not manipulating any footage.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rory, to you think this whole AG Gag movement to ban the photographing of these abuses has backfired on the industry or not?

FREEDMAN: I think it has backfired because now what they`re seeing on television all over the place is the footage that they`re trying so desperately to keep us from seeing. While we look at these images of cows and chickens and pigs we are reminded that it is an ugly business. Factory farming and slaughter houses are messy and ugly and there`s a lot of cruelty and a lot of death and a lot of abuse. And there`s no way around it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say this, the industry says that these are aberrations, that nobody in the industry condones animal abuse. What is your response to that? Because they say that very strongly in all their comments.

FREEDMAN: I think it`s easy to pay lip service and they`re saying all the right things, but we`re obviously seeing images and video footage that say the exact opposite of that. And if this is something they`re really committed to having stopped, then you would think they would be glad to have these investigators going into their businesses and showing us what`s happening.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s really a very, very big controversy right now. There`s editorials coming out all the time, I always say Americans are a very decent people. And when they learn of something that`s wrong, they take action to stop it. But these animals cannot speak for themselves. Ten seconds.

FREEDMAN: These animals can`t speak for themselves. We need to speak for them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We do. And you are. And your book is called "Beg" - - Rory Freedman.

Nancy Grace up next.