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Dr. Drew
Jodi Arias Murder Case
Aired April 30, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, extreme Jodi Arias. Travis Alexander`s best friend surprised us with this.
CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BEST FRIEND: We laid there in bed. My wife and I wondering, like, are our children safe? You know, like do we need to go get our kids? How did we get to a place like this where someone like this is in our house?
PINSKY: Can it get any more shocking than what Chris Hughes revealed?
HUGHES: So Travis jumps up the bed, jerks the door open and there`s Jodi Arias with the most frightening, evil. I mean, I`ve never seen anything like it before or since.
PINSKY: His wife Sky joins us exclusively in just minutes with more about Jodi`s suicide threats, her fictitious stalker, and the fight with Travis that may have led to his murder.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
I`m joined by my co-host, Sirius XM radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, Travis Alexander`s friend, Sky Hughes. She is the one who kicked Jodi out of the house. Sky`s husband, you just saw, Chris, was here last night. And the feedback from you all was intense.
You wanted to hear more. We`re going to bring you more.
But, first off here, a look at where this trial began and where it has gone. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: It was her going into his cell phone, snooping, she did it surreptitiously. She did it without his knowledge because she wanted to know. She couldn`t help herself. And so, she looks in there and finds things that she doesn`t like.
And at that point, they break up. They continue to talk. They continue to send text messages, e-mails, instant messaging, messaging, and oh, yes, there`s the phone sex that she records of them when they are engaged in that particular conduct. And it`s the phone sex that she keeps.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Travis tied Jodi up, tied her to the bed with this rope. He used the knife to cut the rope when it was at the appropriate length. They engaged in sexual activity. And then part of what they were doing that afternoon, too, was that he wanted to take pictures of Jodi, the kind of pictures that Travis wants to take of Jodi are the kind that would make most people cringe with embarrassment. And we show you these photos not for any type of shock value, but you`re going to see them in trial.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Yes, Jenny, those pictures do make people cringe with embarrassment. And here we are looking at them in a court of law. Amazing.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes. It is amazing. Everything she does is amazing in the worse way, Drew. She`s everything pretty much that no one ever wants to be. It`s just -- uh.
PINSKY: Well, certainly, Chris`s description last night was chilling. And I`m very interested to speak with Sky who`s coming up later in this hour. So, stay with us. We will find out more.
And what I`ve seen about what Sky has to say, I was stunned.
HUTT: Yes.
So, joining us is attorney Mark Eiglarsh. He is from speaktomark.com. Lisa Bloom is legal adviser for avo.com. And our human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".
Check out this picture, guys. It is Jodi`s next expert witness. First, Richard Geoffner (ph), another psychology guy. Team Jodi wants him to testify about brain injury and incapacitation. The state wants to call Jill Hayes (ph). She`s a neuropsychologist.
Mark, this brings up -- this begs the question of are we seeing sur, sur, sur, sur, surrebuttal here? What does this mean? Why are they going through this? And I`m going to predict, Mark, your fog is coming up in this one.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Absolutely. What this means is my week is going to suck. I thought this trial is finally coming to an end. Finally, I can get back to just being at home with my family instead of analyzing every night.
But, apparently, both sides just doesn`t know when to quit. Oh, yes? I`ll show you. I`ll show you. And so, you`ve got the prosecutor who presented rebuttal. The defense saying, look, I`m being paid by the hour, and you know what? I don`t want her (INAUDIBLE) on death throw. So, I`ll call more on surrebuttal.
And the prosecutors as well, you know, you`re going to say, I`ll say this. And, unfortunately, it looks like it just keeps going on.
PINSKY: Peewee`s playhouse. I know you are, but what am I?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: We have some interesting information tonight I need to report to the audience. This is something you`ve heard about before, but we have something new.
Four months of Jodi killed Travis, Travis actually called the police about his tires having been slashed outside his home. This was an overnight vandalism. The car was owned by an on again/off again girlfriend.
No specific information about a suspect was given, but A, a police report, B, guess who?
Lisa, why wasn`t this brought up in court?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, perhaps the prosecution did try to get it in, and the judge said, no, this is something that would normally be subject to a motion in limine, which means it would be decided before trial. There`s no clear link to Jodi Arias. We all clearly think that she`s the one that slashed those tires. But without that clear link, the judge is going to say, it`s too prejudicial. It doesn`t come in to evidence.
PINSKY: Mark, no clear link? Come on.
EIGLARSH: She`s right. The court of public opinion is one thing, but when this case goes up on appeal, we don`t want to try this case again. And who would testify to the slashing? Well, conveniently, Travis, unfortunately, is not here.
So you`d have a police officer testify that Travis told him that his tires were slashed. That`s hearsay. And that, unfortunately, for the court of public opinion. But fortunately for a court of law, it doesn`t come in because you can`t cross examine the declarant, that being Travis.
HUTT: Yes, but guys --
PINSKY: Yes, Jenny.
HUTT: How scary must that have been for Travis?
EIGLARSH: Of course.
HUTT: I mean, yes.
BLOOM: This happens all the time. I have trials all the time that there`s evidence that I think it`s so important that the judge hear it and the judge says, no. It`s not clear enough. It`s not linked.
If Jodi had been arrested or better yet convicted for slashing those tires, then, of course, that would come in. But without that, it`s just speculative.
EIGLARSH: And the good news is this case does not hinge upon getting that piece of evidence in.
PINSKY: Right.
EIGLARSH: It is. She should be convicted.
And you don`t want to risk it on appeal. Everything is about making sure she has a clean trial and then she goes away, and we don`t have to hear her again.
PINSKY: And, thus, Mark, you will never go home to see your family.
But, Janine, you have something to say here. Go ahead.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, you know, whether it`s this paper goes in and we have another witness and then another witness and now, we`re getting this testimony down into this really finite area, the question is going to be really limited, I was there the last day Jodi testified in court. And I`ve got to tell you, at that time -- which was a month ago, the jury is somewhat getting a little bored on this.
EIGLARSH: A little.
DRIVER: I see some of the jury literally checked out and they`re staring off into space, you know? And what point -- this is longer than the O.J. Simpson trial. At what point do we say enough`s enough?
So, I think they already have their minds made up at this point. It`s a getting a little ridiculous.
PINSKY: Hey, Janine, something I`ve never asked you about just occurred to me. Does the judge give any clues or give up anything with what she`s feeling? I`ve never asked you that. That`s interesting.
DRIVER: You know, I got to tell you, I don`t think the judge has a lot of control over the court. They take tons of breaks. It`s unbelievable how much time is actually spent in court. When I was there, I was shocked at the little amount of court time that actually took place. There are way too many --
EIGLARSH: Janine, answer his question. That was a good question. Answer it. It was a very good question. Can you tell, using your human lie detector thing, could you tell whether she`s favoring one side or the other? Or, or whatever, any --
DRIVER: I think -- this is the problem. I think she wants to be liked by both sides. And that`s why I think she doesn`t have good control of the courtroom.
Why does Jodi Arias allowed to take a pill in court? My mother is a nurse. Why would you not go outside of the courtroom and take your pill with a nurse? Why does she allow that to happen? What does show allow Jose Baez -- I mean, why does she allow Juan Martinez even to hit hard?
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: Do you think it has to --
BLOOM: Our courts are so underfunded. Let me stick up for this judge for a minute. She`s got a lot to do besides the Jodi Arias case. And when there`s breaks, judges typically are hearing other cases and deciding other matters.
So, it may seem like only a little bit of time to us, but judges tend to work very hard, especially on small budgets.
DRIVER: No, no, what I mean, Lisa, what I meant by that is I`m in there. The court starts at 10:30. That`s fine. The judge has work to do before then.
But we`re taking breaks nonstop. The actual testimony is so limited. It`s unbelievable.
Then, we`re out of there. There`s an hour and a half lunch. We`re out there at like 4:00, 4:30. I mean, it`s just ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But, Janine, Jodi has to take breaks. Jodi needs breaks.
DRIVER: Yes. Jodi needs breaks.
PINSKY: I want to ring Janine like -- a host here, guys -- I want to ring Janine like a towel here for a second. You didn`t answer the question, though. I want to see if you can do it. Has she given any tells with her body language, with her facial expression?
DRIVER: I think she favors -- I think she favors Jodi --
PINSKY: Is she worrying about what`s going on at home? Is she worrying about, like Mark, she wants to get home to her kids? Something like that you can read.
DRIVER: I think she favors Jodi Arias more than she favors the prosecution.
HUTT: Really? Really? You think she`s taken by Jodi?
BLOOM: What difference does it make ultimately?
DRIVER: I think that she does. I think that she lets a lot get in there. I think, look at Nurmi. He`s slouched in his chair. I mean, are you serious?
If I allowed my students to sit this way when I teach law enforcement, I would have no control over my classrooms. There`s a sense of respect that you get, and I think you need to be a little bit of a bulldog.
I think that she comes across, in my perspective as a body language expert, favoring Jodi Arias.
HUTT: Wow.
PINSKY: OK. A little bit of a poker face I think. We have to play poker against her.
OK, guys. Thank you very much.
Next up, Jodi was a snoop and an eavesdropper, what kind of a person is likely to do that? Not only do that, but wake up in the middle of the night and think to herself, somebody is talking about me, I`ve got to find out who? The behavior bureau is going to look at just that.
And later, Sky Hughes is here. She`s telling tales, chilling tales about Jodi. Her suicide threats, her fake stalkers and more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUGHES: We`re talking for a couple hours, and, all of a sudden, my wife-she`s got a sixth sense about things -- and she says, oh, my gosh, she`s out there. And we`re looking at her like, who, Jodi? And she said, yes. She`s out there. She`s listening.
So, we all kind of freak out and we change the subject for about 30 seconds. And there`s a knock at the door, and it`s Jodi. Maybe another 45 minutes to an hour goes by, and my wife gets this feeling again. And she goes she`s out there again. She`s whispering this, of course.
So, Travis jumps off the bed, jerks the door open and there`s Jodi Arias with the most frightening, evil, I mean, I`ve never seen anything like it before or since. And I`ve seen a lot of things in my 40 years, nothing like what we saw that night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Jodi was caught, Chris was describing there, trying to eavesdrop in the middle of the night when she was supposed to been asleep, eavesdropping on a personal conversation that Travis was having with his friends, his best friend and his wife, not once, but twice.
Still with us, Janine Driver. Joining us, Cheryl Arutt, forensic and clinical psychologist, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger", and via phone, Abe Abdelhadi, who dated Jodi and who`s been helping us out throughout the trial.
Danine, I`m going to start with you. Eavesdropping and snooping, I want people to understand, sort of sensing that somebody was talking about her, I would say, and getting out of bed and pursuing -- what does that say about Jodi?
DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR: You know, I think it`s really, really interesting that the wife -- Chris`s wife is the one that figured out that she was out there. I mean, women know women. And women can pick up evil in another woman. Just like men know men. Men can tell when another man is trying to push up on his girl or whatever.
Women know women, and I just -- I think that is so telling that she had that inclination to think, you know, that she was out there listening, because Jodi is to me like a snake. I want to apologize in advance to the reptile world because I`m sure they`re getting offended that I`m comparing her to them. But the way that she slithers around and coils up and pretends to be innocent and your friend, but cross her and she bites you, you know, like diabolical.
I just find that to be so incredibly telling that Chris` intuition just kind of -- she just nailed it. She knew right away that she`s out there.
PINSKY: And, Cheryl, what do you think Chris was talking about, what he looked at in those eyes. Is that, he just looked at her chaos or something? Or was she hostile and aggressive? What do you think he saw?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that he saw a little bit of the really primitive kind of rage panic that happens to somebody who`s borderline who feels out of control, rejected and separated. The idea that these people were somewhere else, excluding her, talking about her was something absolutely unbearable.
If we think about a borderline identity, her identity has sort of been compared to jell-o, which will take on any shape of something that contains it. But if you remove that structure and you try to pick it up, it falls apart in your hands.
She is drawn to the structure, whether it`s Mormonism or anything else. But she doesn`t have any sense of who she is. I think it`s a rage desperation panic.
PINSKY: That is a great analogy. I love the jell-o analogy.
And speaking of the borderline issue, let`s talk about Janine DeMarte (ph). She was the psychologist hired by the prosecution to examine Jodi, do psyche testing on her, formally diagnose her with the borderline personality disorder. Take a look at what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WITNESS: I diagnose her on axis II to as borderline personality disorder, unstable interpersonal relationship, unstable emotions and an unstable sense of identity, meaning who am I as a person? There`s this constant fluctuation, there`s a lot of manipulation that`s involved to those people who have borderline personality disorder and a large since of immaturity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Abe, does that sound familiar to you?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI (via telephone): It sure does. And it was after Jodi that I came up with (INAUDIBLE) called same gender evaluation, or the SGE. That`s my own little clinical thing that I do and what I`ll do when I`m dating somebody at the time, I bring her around my girlfriends and I do exactly what Sky did for Travis which I do.
PINSKY: Explain that. I don`t quite get it.
ABDELHADI: Well, because, same gender evaluation. You get a girl to evaluate the girl. Sometimes you`re blinded by, you know, lust or whatever. But your girl friends and your friends without an agenda will tell you exactly what you should be looking out for. And, you know, my good, dear girlfriends that I`ve known 15, 20 years, you know, they have never let me down.
And what Sky was trying to do for Travis, and unfortunately, he didn`t get in until it was way too late, was to let him know, look, this chick is way out of her mind. Get out now. It`s like that horror movie where you see the person in the house and you`re screaming at the screen, get out of the house. And he wasn`t doing it.
PINSKY: All right. Let me go around the horn a little bit and get an SGE, first from Janine.
DRIVER: Well, this is the deal. In law enforcement, if we knock on your door in the middle of the night, at 2:00, we`re looking for fear. But we didn`t hear fear from Chris Hughes. What do we hear? Frightening, evil look.
So, that says to me it was probably a combination of fear and anger when we see that fear and anger combination. It`s like a bull ready to launch. Like Mark was challenging me earlier to give you guys an answer, right? So, that feistiness.
We`re looking for surprise, a normal person who gets busted listening, and we may have listened to some point in our lifer to a conversation we thought someone talking, it doesn`t make us crazy. But if you got busted, you`d be like, surprised first. Surprise is the quickest of all emotions, Dr. Drew. Never lasts more than three seconds.
So if you play a surprise party for your son who plays rugby, and he comes in and he goes -- he knows that someone let the cat out of the bag. He`s having a surprise party. So, we don`t -- from my take from Chris Hughes` analysis is that she wasn`t indicating surprise.
Now surprise is always a catalyst to another emotion. So, it could surprise to sadness, surprise to fear. But to go right to fear to anger, that`s that frightening, evil look that we get.
PINSKY: Interesting. I want to go to Samantha, Jenny, real quick -- Samantha, again, back to the same gender evaluation, the SGE.
Go ahead. You want to ring in. Go.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I agree 100 percent. I don`t necessarily think that the eerie part of Chris Hughes` story was the fact that she was eavesdropping. I mean, many people are guilty of eavesdropping. I`ve been guilty of eavesdropping the past and it`s been a long time, but let`s be honest.
So, I think what was eerie about it was when Chris Hughes described Jodi Arias as being evil, to the point where he said he even feared for his children`s safety. I`m curious to know if he witnessed the same evil eyes that we recently witnessed in court when she was looking at the crime scene photos. Those were some crazy eyes, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree. Who`s trying to talk? Was that Jenny?
HUTT: That`s me, yes.
Dr. Drew, I just have to say that I just can`t believe her bravado. If it were the middle of the night and I started to feel like, oh, maybe somebody`s talking about me upstairs, I would be shaking in my bed afraid to move. I`d be all mixed up and so anxious.
The fact that she got up, got up, went to the door and waited and then reacted, it`s nuts. The whole thing. She`s really out of control.
PINSKY: Jenny, you and I have shared about anxiety disorder. I can identify what you`re saying very strong. I can share with the public to help people, we`re going to try to sort of tackle what this means to have a borderline disorder, a real borderline disorder.
We used to have a lot of borderlines on the (INAUDIBLE) where I worked. And my nurse would put her antenna up when I came on the unit because she said the borderlines could tell even if I was driving into the parking lot, they knew somehow that I was coming out onto the hospital grounds. That`s the kind of strange intuition I`ve seen and heard from borderlines all the time. And to me, this is that same phenomenon. That she wakes up and somebody`s talking about me.
HUTT: And then goes.
PINSKY: I`m going to go find out, how dare they? And then she`s met with -- he, Chris, is met with the real emotion behind what was motivating all of that.
Next up -- thank you, ladies -- Jodi says a lot without speaking. Take her hair, for example. What do her changes in hairstyle and color say?
And later, the woman who told Travis again and again that Jodi was no good for him and up to no good. Why he didn`t listen, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WITNESS: Identity disturbance, it`s about instability. There`s unstable interpersonal relationships, unstable emotions and an unstable sense of identity. Meaning, who am I as a person?
This is also a symptom I found in Ms. Arias. Her ex-boyfriend, Darryl, was talking about her pattern of behaviors. She indicated that there was a point in which she had changed the color of her hair, bought a certain car, and acted a certain way to be consistent with his ex-wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau. I really thought that psychologist was really good, DeMarte. She`s sort of no nonsense. And, Jenny, you and I have been self-disclosing about our anxiety disorder here. So thank you for bringing that up.
But another thing that I was mentioning the last segment about when I would threat borderline on chemical dependency, my nurse also used to say I gave them super powers. Then I would come onto the grounds, Cheryl, you may find this guy interesting. When I would come near the hospital, they would begin acting out. It`s like -- I don`t know what it is. I don`t know what that is, but I just want to share with the audience that there`s this kind of phenomenon that goes along with the borderline disorder that`s hard to describe.
HUTT: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: I feel like they do have this magic power. And to me, you and I were talking about this a little bit earlier, the sultry, sexual power that they inflict on people to get them to do what they want.
I never had any of that, like that`s one part of the borderline personality that I`d like.
PINSKY: Well, I`ve got the behavior bureau standing by for you. I know you`re envious of Jodi for certain ways.
HUTT: Just that.
PINSKY: But we`ll deal with that after the show.
Speaking of Jodi, her hair color, its color, its style. They`ve been an important part of the trial. Take a look at this hair timeline. And, again, we have to warn people that there may be some graphic material in here that`s not suitable for everyone in the audience. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
MARTINEZ: This was taken at the time of the booking?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. He said that the person that came in and rented the vehicle was number five, except that she had blonde hair when she came in, got the car.
MARTINEZ: Exhibit 638. Was taken on what date?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: June 3rd, 2008, at 2:28.
MARTINEZ: What is the date on that down there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: June 3rd, 2008, at 15:22 hours.
MARTINEZ: Which came later, the Walmart receipt or the photograph?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Walmart receipt.
WILLMOTT: There were other pictures taken, what appeared to be taken on that day on June 4th, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
WILLMOTT: And those are pictures that we saw of Mr. Alexander and some of Ms. Arias. The nude photos.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Prosecution`s position is that she dyed her hair as a disguise, but there is this identity issue. Cheryl, you`re the one who sort of nailing that down, I love your jell-o mold analogy. What do you make of the hair and my superpowers for borderline?
ARUTT: Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, I have to say that when you`ve been working on the unit, it sounds like the borderlines want you to be their jell-o mold. They want to mold themselves around the structure that they feel from you.
PINSKY: That`s right.
ARUTT: So, I have to say first and foremost, you know? And it`s reassuring to them when you show up. So, that`s when the super powers start activating, since you asked.
And second, I think that we do see that identity diffusion, but we also, somebody can have that and still want to disguise themselves and still want attention. And I wanted to say something to Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, do you remember last night`s show when we were talking about Jodi tweeting. And you were saying what do you have to do to get this many Twitter followers? My Twitter exploded with all these people tweeting saying scroll down. They are fake followers. They have zero tweets and zero this and that.
Somebody seems to have purchased those Twitter followers.
HUTT: Wow.
ARUTT: Lots of them. And I though that`s important to know.
HUTT: I think it`s kind of you to tell me that to make me feel better.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. I`ve got Samantha here to tell us about that.
ARUTT: There`s the attention thing, too.
PINSKY: Hang on. Samantha, I`m so glad you`re here. This is exactly your domain. What is that all about?
SCHACHER: With the social media or the change of hair color? Because --
PINSKY: Well, we`ve suddenly moved into the social media a little bit. So go ahead. Either.
SCHACHER: OK. So, first of all, with social media, with Jodi Arias, I think at the end of the day, this is another form, another way for her to validate herself, because whether or not some of these followers are fake, which I pray to God that they are, because who in their right mind would follow Jodi Arias. But there are people out there that are supporting her, that are intrigued by her, that are captivated by her.
And if she can go on her Twitter account and feel validated at the end of the day, it`s absolutely, in my opinion, she`s one of the most narcissistic women, people, I have ever witnessed.
PINSKY: Danine, what is it about people who are so preoccupied with - - I know about women preoccupied with men that are murderers. I can kind of get my head around that, but what about the Jodi Arias fans?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: It`s like watching an airplane crash or a car crash or something. People just like to be doing drawn into something that`s kind of sinister or evokes an emotion that`s just kind of even gory to a certain degree. And as far as her hair color, I`m wondering whether or not that is part of her personality.
If she`s like -- has her hair dark when she`s feeling sinister and then when she`s feeling playful, she lightens it up and kind of like, you know, the angel and devil on her shoulder like maybe this one is Jodi and this one is Judas (ph)? I don`t know.
PINSKY: Or it`s -- in any -- you know, whatever the way the wind blows, as Cheryl said, the jello -- the mold`s not there to hold her so she just kind of drifts into another sort of sense of herself. Jean, you were studying that tape very carefully. What did you get out of it?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: You know, it`s interesting. First of all, I wasn`t saying much because I change my hair color all the time. I blame it on the fact that I`m a --
PINSKY: Aha!
DRIVER: I`m a Gemini. So, you know, I have the two personalities.
(CROSSTALK)
DRIVER: And I have to say, Jenny Hutt, I`ve never seen you look prettier. You look like a mermaid tonight. You look gorgeous and I`m sitting here, looking at you, Jenny, and I think, I want to become a redhead and do the whole mermaid thing. Like, yes, you look smoking hot tonight. I`m a Gemini. I like change. I`ve had short red hair. I look like the heat miser. I have the long blonde.
(LAUGHTER)
DRIVER: I`ve been a brunettist. I`m a natural brunette. I like change. And I have to say I`m a publicist nightmare big time, because I like that change. So, for me, I like a change.
PINSKY: So, Janine, you`re saying you`re giving Jodi a pass. Samantha, finish me up here. Is hair color sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?
SCHACKER: I mean, if that were the case, Dr. Drew, you could diagnose Nicki Minaj with identity disorder. It`s ridiculous. So, let me tell you this, at the end of the day, yes, women change their hair color. I`ve been brunette, I`ve been blonde. Yes. I`m not a natural blonde, surprise, surprise.
But with Jodi Arias, everything is calculated. From her renting a car that`s not red. From her going to Arizona with her hair dyed so she can remain undetected, so she can go in to Travis Alexander`s home and brutally murder him.
PINSKY: There you. There you go. Samantha, thank you for that button. Well said. Next up, thank you, ladies, by the way.
Next up, no one was closer to Travis Alexander than Sky Hughes and her husband, Chris. Chris had a ton to say last night, but wait till you hear Sky. She is up next.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation tonight, and it`s a bold one. Jodi loves being on trial. We`ve got 12 jurors here in studio. We also have you at home, our online jury, who, by the end of the program, will render a verdict of guilty or not guilty to our very bold accusation tonight that Jodi loves being on trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whose dress was it that you were borrowing?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HIS EX-BOYFRIEND: His friend`s wife, Sky Hughes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning, Ms. Hughes, can you tell us your full name please?
SKY HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BEST FRIEND: Sky Lee Hughes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Ms. Hughes, are you married to Chris Hughes?
HUGHES: Yes, I am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long have you been married?
HUGHES: Ten years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know Travis -- did you know Travis Alexander?
HUGHES: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you know Travis?
HUGHES: We were good friends.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We`re joined by my co-host, Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, and Lisa Bloom still with us. Joining us now is Sky Hughes, herself. Sky and her husband, Chris, were best friend with Travis Alexander. Both took the stand in Jodi`s trial.
Sky, first of all, thank you for being here. Thank you to you, thank you to Chris. We all feel very moved, first of all, appreciative, and second of all, moved by the story that you guys have been telling us. So, let me start with this. After Travis was murdered, you and your husband found some e-mail exchanges between Jodi and Travis, and it revealed something very interesting. Tell us about that.
HUGHES: well, the e-mails were, the ones that -- we read through all of them, from their whole relationship. And we read through e-mails between him and all of his friends. And the ones that -- the one that stuck out moist to us were was the fight that occurred on May 26th because it`s the first time that Travis really saw Jodi for who she was and saw what we saw, you know, throughout their relationship.
PINSKY: And let me take you back to that night that Chris was so vividly describing to us, where you guys were having a private, quiet conversation with Travis, and then, you had this sense that Jodi was outside the door.
HUGHES: Yes.
PINSKY: What -- tell us about that feeling, and then, I`m going to try to paraphrase Abe Abdelhadi said. Give us your same gender evaluation of what you saw when Travis finally threw the door open.
HUGHES: Well, you know the only reason I knew she was out there was I just got this really cold, like frightened feeling that just, like almost like you`re being watched or, you know, just like a sort of like a fear. And when Travis threw the door open, I don`t know if I could adequately describe the look that I saw. But it was, it was almost like ran rage and anger, and it was very disturbing and very, very frightening. I`d never seen that in any one. Ever.
PINSKY: Is that when you decided there was something off about her or you really already knew there was something going on?
HUGHES: Oh, no. We already knew. She had been obsessed with Travis, you know, very early in the relationship. You know, I think Chris talked about how, you know, she had this some sort of vision or something that she was going to marry him. And it was like after that point, I think it was in December, like she would not let that go. And she wouldn`t let him go. And, you know, I mean all sorts of very disturbing behaviors.
She had written Travis -- or sent Travis an anonymous e-mail that she got from a stalker, from a man that had been watching her. And this e-mail said, you know, "you`re so beautiful." "you`re so amazing" and "Travis doesn`t deserve you." And you know, how -- just how incredible Jodi was and how awful Travis was and that he was watching Jodi`s every move and that Travis was too far away to protect her.
And this is at a time when Jodi was trying to get Travis to ask her to move to Arizona. And Travis, you know, he didn`t know her that well.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Did this guy exist?
HUGHES: No.
PINSKY: She made that up?
HUGHES: No. She completely made it up. And Travis, he said, I was doing dishes, and he said hey, there`s something I want to read to you. And he brings it and he starts reading it. And I started laughing. And he got really -- he says Sky, he says, this is very serious. I`m really worried about this. And I said, Travis, Jodi wrote that. You know, Jodi wrote that e-mail. He`s like --
PINSKY: Did he believe you? He didn`t believe you.
HUGHES: No. He said, Jodi would never do anything like that. You know, she`s so nice, why would she do this? And I said because she`s been wanting you to ask her to move to Arizona. You know, this was Jodi. This was so immature, so manipulative, you know?
PINSKY: I think Mark has a chance to ask you question just a second, though, but tell me, what were the nicknames you had for Jodi?
HUGHES: Oh, Peyton from "Hand That Rocks The Cradle" and Rabbit Boiler, just because of the things that we saw.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead. What do you got?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Sky, it`s my understanding that it got so bad for you that you turned to of Travis, and you said, I mean in no uncertain terms, you must break up with her. And apparently, his response was, I can`t, because she`s going to kill herself.
PINSKY: Right.
EIGLARSH: Is that correct?
HUGHES: Yes.
EIGLARSH: And do you feel in your heart like you did everything you could to get him away from her?
HUGHES: You know, more than once, we`d have these conversations. And I was really, really hard on Travis. And, and I would tell him, you know, there`s just something not right. She`s obsessed with you. You know, these behaviors are very frightening, and I said just stop talking to her. Just stop calling her. And he said, he said you don`t understand.
She says she`s going to kill herself. And I said she`s not going to kill herself. And he said no. He said, you can`t guarantee that and I can`t live with myself if she does.
PINSKY: And that`s --
HUGHES: And I wish -- I wish there was something more I could have done.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Lisa, go ahead. You got something for Sky?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Yes, so manipulative. So, Sky, first of all, I`m so sorry for the loss of from your friend, Travis.
HUGHES: Thank you.
BLOOM: And you and your husband were best friends with him. You knew him so well. We know now that Jodi Arias killed him. The only question in this trial is why. You were there. You knew them. Why do you think she did it?
HUGHES: You know, for years, I thought it was the Cancun trip, you know? And that, I think, motivated part of it. I think it was when he -- she really saw that he was moving on. He was making steps in his life to cut things off with her, to really move on with his life in a lot of ways.
And but as I -- you know, as things have unfolded and I`ve thought about that fight that they got in, you know, it was the first time that he really saw her, saw what we saw, you know, saw --
PINSKY: And --
HUGHES: You know, he said that --
PINSKY: And, Sky, I want you to think about this -- I have to go to break, but I understand that you believe there might have been something he was going to reveal about Jodi. I want you to think about that and tell us after the break. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, Lisa Bloom are with us, and Sky Hughes. Sky, I just want to knowledge -- first, I want to thank you, but I want to acknowledge how tough this has got to be when we`re asking you really difficult questions, you wish you`d done more, have you done everything.
Of course, you couldn`t have predicted how far this was going to go. Even those of us with knowledge about these kinds of disorders don`t take it where it went. It`s an extraordinary, extraordinary thing. And you guys have had to deal with.
HUGHES: Thank you. Thanks.
PINSKY: So, I want you to think about what I asked you before the break. What about this, whatever was there fighting about, it seems like, I understand, that there might have something Travis had on Jodi. What do you think that was and is that what led to the murder?
HUGHES: You know, I wish I had an answer. We`ve gone and we`ve wracked our brains. You know, we went through all the e-mails again. We went through the fight. And we just can`t figure it out. Jodi had done something very, very bad, very unforgivable. And this is -- it had to be worse than slashing tires, stealing journals, stealing rings, stalking him, like it was worse than that, because this is the first time that he -- I saw this kind of response from him.
And so, I don`t know what it was. It had to have been really bad. I do think that this led to her deciding that she was going to kill him because it was after this, you know, this happened on the 26th and on the 28th, the gun is stolen, and around that time, she asks Daryl for gas cans and then she tells Ryan that she`s going to be there the following week. And all of that seems to have happened right after this fight.
PINSKY: This fight where he says I`m going to tell the world about what you`ve done. And we don`t know what she had done. And now knowing her as we do, God only know what she had done.
HUGHES: Yes.
PINSKY: Now, Sky, Alyce LaViolette testified that you wrote Jodi and said that you wouldn`t allow Travis to date your sister. What was all that about?
HUGHES: It was nothing that they are talking about. It had nothing to do with anything they`re talking about. It was -- the reason I wouldn`t let Travis and my sister is because Travis had a hard time committing, and he was in love with Deanna Reed (ph) --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: It wasn`t domestic violence. It wasn`t the way the defense was using.
HUGHES: No. No. No. No. Not even close. Nothing remotely close. Like nothing like that. Travis was an amazing man. He was so good to his girlfriends. You know, he was -- the reason, you know, Wilmot went through this list of girls that were supposedly vulnerable that Travis had mistreated, and I know these girls, and they are beautiful, confident, successful women and they loved Travis.
All of them loved Travis. And they would have nothing bad to say about him. And that`s why they wouldn`t put him on the stand is because they`ve had five years to find one woman that Travis mistreated. They`ve got nothing. Nothing.
PINSKY: That says everything. OK. We will have more with Sky in a second. My panel, I want you guys to think of questions for Sky. I`m going to come back and let you guys have at it. Be right with you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with our special guest, Sky Hughes. Jenny Hutt is my co-host this week. And Jenny, you have a first question.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. Well, I have a lot of questions, but I`m so sorry that this happened. Let me start with that, Sky. And the havoc that this woman wreaked on all of you is just, it`s just tragic on every level. But, I heard something that Travis knew that Jodi was hacking into his e-mail, and so he was writing things specifically for her to find them? Is that true?
HUGHES: Yes. When we went through his e-mails -- well, first of all, she told me personally that she had gotten into the e-mail and forwarded all of the e-mails from girls to herself. And then, later, as we were going through his e-mails after she had killed him, there were e-mails that Travis wrote to himself, you know, to Travis from Travis. And the subject was "Jodi, you`re caught." And then, in the body of the e-mail, it said, "Stay out of my e-mail. We`ll talk about this later." And you know, there were no cusswords, there was no yelling, you know? There was no like anger in that. It was just we`ll talk later, you know?
PINSKY: Just I know you`re here.
HUGHES: What we saw from Travis.
PINSKY: Lisa, what do you got for Sky?
BLOOM: OK. So, Sky, I love your description of -- you had the sixth sense and that she had this cold, scary look and that Travis didn`t sew what you saw. So, I want to know what suggestions you have to guys out there, you know, as a woman, we sense when there`s problems with other women, what, what can we take from this to warn guys out there when there`s a stalker or a problem woman in their life?
HUGHES: You know, listen to your friends. Listen to your family. Listen to those who love you, because they see things that sometimes when we`re in love or when we care about someone we don`t want to see. And you know, Travis, I care about you. Why would I want to do something to hurt you or to upset you, you know? And yes, just listen to people who love you.
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh.
EIGLARSH: Sky, first of all, thank you so much for sharing your time and your thoughts with us. Last night, your husband explained that middle of the night meeting where you guys were talking for a while, and then Jodi must have been listening in. I want to know specifically what was said, but more importantly, what did Travis say? And I`m going to then assume that Jodi heard probably some serious truths out of Travis` mouth that night.
HUGHES: OK. Yes. We had seen just throughout the month, we had seen several different instances where Jodi was very manipulative of different people, including Travis. And that particular trip to our house, I can give you a few things that we saw. You know, she was upstairs, standing outside the door listening to his conversation with Deanna.
And for a long period of time, Travis went to use the restroom, and she stood outside the door while he was in there. And he had no idea that she was in there. You know, anytime that Travis was out of her sight, she would say, have you seen Travis? Do you know where Travis is?
PINSKY: Wow.
HUGHES: You know, she would not let him out of her sight. And just - - she just was so -- she got upset because he wouldn`t look into her eyes and she went pouted in her room. And I mean, just really strange, really obsessed.
PINSKY: Well, Sky, thank you for answering our questions. Thank you for sort of fleshing out this story for us. Again, this trial has gone on more and more. I think the picture has become increasingly clear, rather than, Mark, you`ll love this, foggy.
EIGLARSH: Yes.
PINSKY: The fog has lifted, I think, on a lot of these issues on who this person is. And, by the same token, at least in the media, we`re able to make a clearer picture of who Travis was, and it`s nothing like what has gone on in that courtroom. So, Sky, thank you so much. Thank you to the panel. Last call is next.
HUGHES: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for the last call. Jenny, you get the last call with your question. Go ahead.
HUTT: OK. So, how to you handle the sort of, if only I had mentality that these people now have to -- have to grapple with? How do they get through that and heal?
PINSKY: How do they get through the excruciating experience of sitting in court. I say, A, they make a -- make sense of this all, make a narrative, share with other people what they`re doing, support one another, and then, ultimately, give back, give support, create a fund in Travis -- for instance, The TravisAlexanderFund.com that Chris mentioned yesterday. Check that out.
Thank you to Jenny Hutt. Thank you all for watching. Thank you to my guests. I`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now and I`ll see you there.
END
