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Jury Judges Jodi

Aired May 6, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live outside the Maricopa County Courthouse here in Phoenix, Arizona. You`ll see, with our deliberations clock, the jury has now deliberated over seven hours over the course of two days.

People gathering from the Phoenix area and from all over the United States, even people from Canada coming here to wait for a verdict. And amongst them, we have a very special guest, Dave Hall, a dear friend of the victim, Travis Alexander. We`re going to speak to Dave about some of the extraordinary stories he has to tell about Travis and Jodi Arias.

The big question we`re all asking, what will the jury decide?


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: She`s an individual who is manipulative.

KIRK NURMI, JODI`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nine days out of ten, I don`t like Jodi Arias.

MARTINEZ: Of course none of it is her fault.

NURMI: She simply snapped, out of control, sudden heat of passion.

MARTINEZ: This law of attraction says that you lie.

NURMI: Either she was there to kill him or it wasn`t -- or she wasn`t.

MARTINEZ: It teases this anger out of him and tries to mix in the sex.

NURMI; Who wants to be called a slut, whore, bitch and (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

MARTINEZ: After all, she never intended to be caught.

NURMI: One thing this childhood is it breaks the lid off all these secrets.

MARTINEZ: There is no good luck for him at the end of that rainbow.

NURMI: The sad symbolic ending to a toxic relationship.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And what are the options? Let`s break it down. And then we`re going to debate it over the course of the hour.

The jury considering murder one, which raises the prospect, the possibility of the death penalty for Jodi Arias. The jury also considering the possibility of murder 2, which would be 10 to 22 years. And then the final option, manslaughter, 7 to 21. Keep in mind, she`s already spent almost five years behind bars.

Now, of course, when it comes to jurors, you remember Jodi Arias and her infamous words. Check this out.


JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: No jury is going to convict me.


ARIAS: Because I`m innocent. And you can mark my words on that one.

I was very confident that no jury would convict me, because I planned to be dead. Probably the most bitter words I`ll ever eat.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let`s talk about the jury makeup. Eight men, four women. As we all know -- we`ve all been discussing it with all the folks here -- this is a case loaded with gender politics. So let`s debate it with our expert legal panel. How will the jury makeup impact the deliberations, eight men, four men? How will that impact? Starting with prosecutor Stacey Honowitz.

STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, Jane, you can never predict, of course, what a jury is going to do. And many lawyers have many different theories about how they want the jury to be made up. Some people say that having men on a jury makes them more stronger; men are more decisive. Women tend to be more emotional.

I think in this case, there`s so much overwhelming evidence, that the fact that there`s eight men and four women isn`t going to make a difference. I think it`s the idea of sitting down, going over the evidence and returning a verdict. I don`t think the fact that there`s more men versus women on this panel is going to make a difference.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s bring in a man, Brian Silber, for the defense. Obviously, sex was a big issue in this case. The sex tape was played by both sides for different reasons. How will all the sex talk and the gender makeup of the jury -- eight men, four women -- impact these deliberations? Let`s debate it.

BRIAN SILBER, ATTORNEY: Well, the thing we have to remember is that jurors bring their personal life experience to the table. And I think when men look at this jury and they look at the evidence in this case and they watch the trial, they see it from possibly Travis`s perspective as having this woman come after them and kill them.

Now, from the other side, I think some of the women may look at the evidence and have their own perspective. For example, when we heard that Jodi had a pedicure and a manicure on her way to see Travis, that`s something that negates premeditation, because when someone beautifies themselves on a way to meet a guy, that doesn`t say they`re there to kill him. It says they`re there to impress him and to have sex with him, which is actually what happened.

So you can`t judge a verdict by the sex of the jurors, but it will play a role.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. All right. You had your say, Brian. Rebuttal. Who`s trying to speak?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Jordan. I think these men are all thinking, "Oh, my goodness, who did I date in my past that could have just flipped -- the switch could have flipped? And did I have a psycho like this or does my friend or a buddy that I know that has kind of a stalker going after them -- is she going to flip?" And I think it freaks them out.

I mean, I think that`s why America thinks this is such an interesting case, because we all know somebody who went a little crazy when someone tried to break up with them. And we go, "Wow, could that be the next Jodi Arias?"

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rene Sandler for the defense, quickly?

RENE SANDLER, ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to play to the men. This case was about sex, the dynamic in this relationship...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait. Hold on. We`ve got to hear something. Something`s happening right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody out here on this side of the pillars, please do not block the fire exits.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we now have the Maricopa County deputy sheriff there saying, "Hey, there are so many people here," that they don`t want us to block the exits.

So as we wrapped up that debate, which was fiery and heated, because this is a hot topic, this whole issue of how gender could impact the deliberations, I want to bring in Travis Alexander`s dear friend, Dave Hall.

And Dave, you have so many extraordinary stories to tell about your friend. First of all, I know that you are very close to the family of Travis Alexander. What can you tell us about what they are going through right now? I mean, we`re all experiencing anxiety. But I can`t even imagine what they are experiencing.

DAVE HALL, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Well, I`m sure that anything that we`re experiencing is multiplied thousands of times. And I think to myself, if this was one of my kids and I had to go through this, and I had to sit through that trial and see those photos, how bad I would want justice served.

And to me, he was a friend. But to them, that`s blood. And the anxiety they`re feeling is off the charts compared to anything that we might be feeling here today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And let me ask you about an extraordinary experience that you had. And you were with Jodi Arias the day after she killed Travis Alexander, because we all know that what Jodi Arias did was she killed Travis Alexander. She got in her car, and she drove to Utah. And then she met up with Ryan Burns, who was a love interest from PrePaid Legal, as well.

And you`re with PrePaid Legal, now LegalShield. And you all went to a PrePaid Legal event. And then you had dinner afterwards at Chili`s. And she was there. Tell us about what she looked like, what she was wearing, her hands and what ran through you?

HALL: Well, the first thing that jumped out to me was her hair color was dramatically different. We`d always known her as a platinum blonde. So when she showed up as a dark brunette, that was definitely a big eye- catcher for us.

The next thing was a long-sleeved shirt. We`re in the middle of June. It`s 100 degrees outside. And she was never someone that was known to be real modest in her attire. So a long-sleeve shirt was a little bit weird. But that alone doesn`t make you question whether or not somebody murdered somebody.

Her hand was also bandaged up. But again, she explained that away with she had cut it at work on a glass. And so, you know, being that it was five days later that we found out Travis was dead, none of those things jumped out in our mind at the time that, you know, something went wrong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But then the moment that you got word that Travis was dead, how did you rewind back to that moment when you`re having dinner with her, when she shows up to go to this PrePaid Legal meeting a day late?

HALL: You know, I didn`t even think about all those signs, because we didn`t know how he died for still a few more weeks. We just knew that he was dead.

But all I had to hear was that he was dead. And I knew he was so high on life, he was so excited about life that I knew it wasn`t a suicide. And he was so healthy and very physically fit person that it would be a very slim chance that he would have died of natural causes. And right away, we just knew that somebody had done something to him. That`s all we knew.

And so many of us, many of Travis` friends, contacted the Mesa Police Department to tell them, "You need to look at Jodi Arias. We don`t know how she would have done it. We don`t know what she would have done. But we know that Jodi is involved somehow."

Now, the Mesa Police Department downplayed it, played it off, "Hey, thanks for the tip. We`ve got a lot of different things we`re looking at." But I think right out of the gate, with as many people that contacted him, that she went right to the top of the suspect list right away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I remember one of your friends, Clay Bukalis (ph), told us that it was a case of fatal attraction, that she actually told the detective, Detective Flores, she goes, "It`s fatal attraction." And would you have described it that same way?

HALL: Yes, the fact that -- I don`t know how much I can say because I don`t want the jury to hear things that we -- they shouldn`t...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they`re upstairs, five stories above us deliberating, and they`re not watching us right now.

HALL: We -- we knew that -- we knew that she had slashed his tires on his car not once but twice and also a girl that he was dating. And you know, on a BMW, those round flat tires are very, very expensive, especially to replace two days in a row. And we knew that if someone`s got that much hate and venom in them to go to that extreme, to cause so much hurt on someone, that quite honestly, taking their life probably wasn`t going to be a big leap.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. OK. Extraordinary stories. You`re going to hear more from Travis Alexander, the victim`s, dear friend, Dave Hall.

And we`ve got the latest on the verdict watch clock. How long have they been deliberating? Seven hours, 15 minutes.

And we`ve got so much more to tell you. We`ve got lawyers scattered in this crowd. We`ve got people who have come here from all over the country, folks really just saying they are here for the duration. They want to know, what will this jury decide?

We`ll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the jury unanimously decides that Jodi is guilty of the first-degree murder of Travis Alexander, they could then make her one of the few women on Death Row in Arizona.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": If Jodi Arias makes it to Death Row, it will be years before she`s executed.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": It is 12 years on average between the time that someone is convicted, sentenced and executed in the state of Arizona.




ARIAS: They were just photos that we took and that we deleted with the intention -- that wasn`t -- that wasn`t a one-time incident. There were many times where we took pictures, whatever, and any kind of media. And it was deleted, because it`s just -- it`s just something that we didn`t intend to ever keep.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The jury has been deliberating seven hours and 18 minutes. You see the folks here outside the Maricopa County Courthouse. We are five stories below where those deliberations are going on right now.

And remember, in the closing arguments, the attorney for Jodi Arias seemed to make a plea for one juror. Basically almost saying, flat-out, all it takes is one. Remember this?


NURMI: Each one of you is entitled to deliver your verdict to this courtroom. You do not have to succumb to the pressure of a fellow jury who may not agree with you. You can have the courage of your conviction to deliver your own verdict.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s take a look at some other mega cases and how long the deliberations took. Casey Anthony, ten hours, 40 minutes. And then remember the Scott Peterson case? He`s the guy who killed his wife, Laci, who was pregnant. They deliberated for seven days.

And, of course, who could forget the O.J. Simpson case, a shocker when they deliberated, despite the months and months the trial went on, for less than four hours.

Beth Karas, HLN legal correspondent, with us right now. What is going on? I mean, this clock is ticking, and we`re not hearing a thing.

KARAS: We`re not hearing a thing, but that doesn`t mean the jurors haven`t had questions for the judge.

First of all, I wouldn`t expect a lot of questions anyway, because they have all the exhibits with them. They have all their notes, 12 notebooks. They have a copy of the legal instruction. So basically, they should be able to kind of figure out most questions they have among themselves.

Plus, they were able to ask a lot of the key witnesses a lot of questions. Right? Jodi Arias had over 200 questions the jurors asked of her.

So they may just be deciding among themselves what degree it is, convincing one or two jurors that it`s premeditated, maybe.

But the judge did instruct them on Friday afternoon that, if they have a question, they put their question in writing. The foreperson signs it. It gets handed to the judge. She contacts the lawyers. She can do it by telephone on a conference call. And she will answer their question in writing.

We`re not in the court. We`re not allowed in the courtroom. It`s locked to the media. So if that`s happened, we don`t know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In other words, there could have been questions we just don`t know about?

KARAS: Correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Meantime, our producer, our show producer, Selin Darkalstanian, who has been here from the start -- she`s basically told me she`s moved here. But where are the key participants? Where is the family of Travis Alexander? Where`s the Arias family? Where`s the prosecutor?

SELIN DARKALSTANIAN, HLN PRODUCER: We know that Travis Alexander`s family is laying low at a -- at a remote location. And that, once there is a verdict, the jury reaches a verdict, they will alert the prosecutor`s office. And the prosecutor`s office will alert the family. And so we have about 30 minutes to an hour for everybody to get here.

Now, remember, the prosecutor`s office is right here in this complex. So he doesn`t have to go far. But the defense attorneys have to drive in. So we have to give them a little bit of time for that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So we`ve got about a 30-minute to an hour window. And now the deliberations, over seven hours. I want to bring in our expert legal panel again. What does it tell us that they are deliberating for over seven hours?

Obviously, look, I`ve got the jury instructions here. It`s 22 pages of what I like to call in layman`s terms, gobbledygook. I mean, it`s very hard to get a read on this. It`s a lot of definitions, a lot of big words. They`ve got to pick a foreperson. They probably do a straw ballot. Then they`ve got to go through 22 pages and figure out what exactly are the definitions.

Should we read anything into the fact, Jon Leiberman, that they`ve been doing -- they`ve been going at it for this long, Jon?

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely not. I mean, this isn`t "CSI." These things take time. They had 600 and some-odd exhibits to look at.

And Jane, one key to think about is this jury was told that, if you find any portion of a witness`s testimony to be not credible, you can either dismiss that portion or you can dismiss all of their testimony. And that`s where I believe the prosecution will make its biggest impact, because Jodi Arias can`t be believed on any point.

And this wasn`t about sex. This was about a cold-blooded slaughter of an innocent man.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, we`ve all waded through -- the number of trees that have been killed just to create the documents for this trial. I mean, there are so many documents. They are piling up in all the reporters` and all the lawyers` offices and homes and hotel rooms.

Stacey Honowitz, briefly, do they have to go into that and wade into that, like the transcripts of 18 days of Jodi Arias`s testimony?

HONOWITZ: They get to do whatever they want to. And the funny thing is, Jane, we got to talk about it for four months. They`re not allowed to talk about it. This is their first opportunity to be all together, to talk about the testimony, talk about the jury instructions. So any lawyer that says to you, oh, seven hours means it`s going to be second-degree or seven hours means it`s going to be premeditated, nobody can ever predict, as you have seen in all your high-profile cases, what a jury is going to do.

This is their first opportunity to sit after four months, wade through the evidence, the instructions, and they`re going to take their time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. When we come back, in just a couple of seconds, once again, we`re going to talk to Dave Hall, Travis Alexander`s dear friend. And he also knew Jodi Arias. They were all together in PrePaid Legal. Some incredible insights as we wait on pins and needles for a decision from this jury. Stay right there.


CASAREZ: If Jodi is sentenced to death and she`s on Death Row, her time outside of herself will be extremely limited. She can go outside for exercise three times a week, two hours each time. And she can have a shower three times a week.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jodi can have visitation rights when she`s there. It`s closely monitored. She can have up to maybe two to three hours over a weekend. But that would be the limitation of her visitation.



MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were shooting him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: How about when you cut his throat? Were you crying then?

ARIAS: I don`t know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The crowds gathering here outside the Maricopa County Courthouse to the point where you just saw the sheriff`s deputy warn folks, stay on this side because if you block the fire exits, we`re all going to be forced to move. So everybody, really a very quiet, somber, well-behaved crowd. This is a very, very serious situation, and everybody taking it very seriously indeed.

Now, you remember during the trial that Ryan Burns took the stand to testify that, after Jodi killed Travis Alexander but nobody knew it at the time. She arrived a day late in Utah to visit him where they, politely put, canoodled. Check this out.


RYAN BURNS, FRIEND OF JODI ARIAS: The second we woke up, we were kissing.

MARTINEZ: And what else happened?

BURNS: She got on top of me pretty aggressively, and we were kissing.

MARTINEZ: When she got on top of you pretty aggressively, where was her genital area compared to yours?

BURNS: She was right on top of me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So there you have Ryan Burns testifying. Now, she showed up more than a day late. Everybody was waiting for her on June 4. That was the day she killed Travis Alexander. She shows up on June 5, and she has these cut hands. And she`s wearing a long-sleeved shirt, and she`s being very sexually aggressive, according to Ryan Burns, with him.

So Dave Hall, you were there. You had dinner with Jodi Arias the night after she killed Travis Alexander not knowing, of course, that you`ve been trying to reach your good buddy because you`re all going to Cancun together. And you were trying to get some information as far as what events he wanted to see while in Cancun.

Now that you look back to it, do you feel that she was showing up there just to get an alibi, being sexually aggressive with Ryan Burns, just to get an alibi?

HALL: I think it definitely looks that way. That another sign of premeditation in this case, that she would use all of us in a public setting to say, "Hey, look, I was with these guys."

The next day, we were going four-wheeling. And we had invited her to go out four-wheeling with us. But she said she had to hurry and get back to California. I think that she was probably more worried that they were going to find Travis within the next 24 hours and wanted to be as far away from Arizona as possible when the news broke that he was found. So she hurried and left Utah. After she had established a time line that "I was here in Utah," she hurried, left and went back to California.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is so -- does that anger you, that you were in a sense -- that she attempted to use you?

HALL: It doesn`t anger me, because it`s just par for the course for Jodi. I think she`s manipulated and used people her entire life to get what she wants.

And her arrogant comments of "no jury will ever convict me" is just another example of her manipulation. And I hope the jury here in Arizona sends a real clear message to her: her manipulating days are over.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, the jury, I understand, has been deliberating 7 hours, 7 1/2 hours, approximately. Wow. We`re going to see what happens. They`re still up there five stories above where I am, deliberating right now. More on the other side.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this in light of what is to come, possibly, in that courtroom?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To elicit that sympathy from that jury. And it may be that she doesn`t feel well and needs to compose herself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got an e-mail while this was going on. And he believes because her sister is here today, so that makes up really the entire family sitting in the front row, that emotionally it`s just too much for her.






JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: I am asking you to return a verdict of first degree murder.

KURT NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June 4th, 2008?


He was very nice to me.

You know what I really liked was when we were in the bath with the candles and I had the braid.


MARTINEZ: Is Jodi Arias guilty of the crime of lying or not? Well, of course she is.

ARIAS: said, I`m going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you, bitch.

I ran. And he stopped me.

MARTINEZ: Were you crying when you were stabbing him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

I mean how could somebody do that?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jane Velez-Mitchell outside the Maricopa County courthouse here in Phoenix, Arizona. And we can tell you and all the people watching here, they have just stopped the clock. The jury is going home for the night. They deliberated for seven and a half hours approximately over the course of two days, Friday and today.

Let`s go right to our debate panel. What does it mean? Prosecutor Stacey Honowitz, what does it mean?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: It doesn`t mean anything. It means they`re going through the evidence, they`re taking their time. They sat through four months of testimony. It`s the first time they`ve had an opportunity to discuss the testimony, all of the witnesses, what they had to say.

And so you could have a jury out for two hours. You could have a jury out for two weeks or two months. I don`t think it`s determining of anything at this point. It`s too early on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jordan Rose, we all covering this case often felt overwhelmed -- 57 days or something like that a And hours and hours and transcripts and transcripts. Do you think there`s a possibility with all the evidence, the hundreds of photos and of the 18 days of Jodi Arias on the stand that they are overwhelmed by too much evidence, as it were?

JORDAN ROSE, ATTORNEY: Oh, they may be. I can`t lie and say that it doesn`t bother me or make me nervous every minute that they`re out. But because -- you know, obviously if it was obvious to them that she was guilty of first degree murder, we`d all like them to come back immediately and say that.

But when you think about it, all of the testimony, like you say, the hours and days and months of testimony that they have to consider, it would be unreasonable to believe that they would be back in just seven and a half hours.

So I think I will genuinely start to get worried about her first degree murder conviction if they stay out for, let`s say, more than three and a half or four days. Then I`m a little concerned because obviously there`s somebody in the jury room --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Brian Silber, would that indicate that there are factions are developing --

BRIAN SILBER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry, Jane. I didn`t hear your question.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Would that indicate if they were out let`s say all day tomorrow, that there are factions within the jurors; that they`ve developed factions?

SILBER: Absolutely not, I agree with Stacey. I`ve been in trials so many times that you absolutely cannot predict what a verdict is going to be based on how long they deliberate. Now, once the questions start pouring in, that may change because based on the types of questions they ask, we may be able to garner what their thought process is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We already heard, Brian, from Beth Karas that they have a way of asking the questions in a written form. So it`s possible that they may have asked questions and we don`t know about it because we just heard that from Beth Karas.

Ok. So here`s what prosecutor Juan Martinez is aiming for. He`s aiming for a conviction on Murder One and here was his pitch to the jury during his closing argument. Check this out.


MARTINEZ: She catches up to his and goes for the throat. If she really doesn`t know what`s going on -- I can`t remember. Why is she so directed at a place where she can certainly cause death? If she really didn`t know what was going on, if it was just really passion, if it was just the heat of passion, then you wouldn`t have a directed hit to somewhere that`s going to kill.

But she`s not done with him yet. (inaudible) If this were passion -- if it was a situation where somebody was just upset, it would be random all over the place. But this was a strike to kill right at the neck.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And Jean Casarez has just come out of the courtroom. You just saw the jurors leave. Tell us what you just saw.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know, I really studied them when they left. And they looked to me very serious, to the degree that they don`t agree in that room. I mean they were just very pensive thoughts that tell me they have differences of opinions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have observed them over the course of this trial, since January. So --

CASAREZ: It`s a new expression. I have not seen that expression on their face before. Now here`s what`s interesting; they`re not starting until 10:00 tomorrow morning. They started --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re supposed to start at 9:00.



CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good question. And I think the question is does somebody have an appointment? Do they believe that they are far enough along that they don`t have to rush anything? So I don`t know. It`s an interesting commentary, though. They are in no rush.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, it could also mean they have a verdict.


KARAS: Because jurors will sometimes reach a verdict and go home and sleep on it, meet the next day, make sure that they all agree and nobody has had any second thoughts and then announce it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, the one thing we learned from the Casey Anthony case, you cannot predict, you cannot read the tea leaves. You do not know what these jurors are thinking. We can sit here and speculate because we are on verdict watch and we`re talking to people about what our thoughts are. But we don`t know. We have no idea.

I want to go back to Dave Hall, you were a dear friend of Travis Alexander, the victim, and the victim`s family. And you, like Travis, a Mormon. And so this is a very, very personal issue for you. Does it make you nervous that they`ve gone seven and a half, now they`re going home and coming back an hour later tomorrow morning?

DAVE HALL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: I`m not nervous about it. I think that the state of Arizona has some pretty sharp people. I think it would be very hard to find 12 people that would mess this up. Regardless of what the verdict is, my faith is in God that the ultimate judgment is really the one that counts and that`s going to happen one way or the other.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you a question because part of the disconnect that sometimes happens in criminal cases is that we out here in the public know a whole lot more than the jurors. They`re seeing this through an entirely different set of glasses.

For example, you gave us footage that we aired on our show of Travis shooting. You guys would go target practice. And you said that he always had to borrow your guns because he didn`t own a gun. So you were absolutely convinced he didn`t own a gun. The jury didn`t hear anything about that. They didn`t see your video. Your thoughts on that?

HALL: Well, I was interested in seeing how Jodi was going to work the gun into the murder scene. I was kind of waiting on pins and needles to see where this was going to fit into her story because I mean the fact that it was a .25 caliber gun -- anyone that knows something about guns knows that`s not a unique caliber. That`s fairly rare to find a .25 caliber. And the fact that her grandparents had a .25 caliber gun stolen out of their home a week before Travis was shot with a .25 caliber just makes it all that more unique and interesting there.

And when she said she knew that Travis owned a gun and she ran and got it, it`s amazing that she would know that but that but all of Travis` friends and family members all know that he never did own a gun.

And every year I take all the executives in my company and my team out on a four-wheeling trip and we shoot guns in the desert and stuff. And I tell them, you need to bring your guns, bring your four-wheelers and if you don`t -- don`t have any, you can borrow mind or I`ll line some stuff for you. And every year he borrowed my guns. And if he would have owned the gun he would have brought it on one of those trips.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s interesting the jury never heard that story from Dave Hall. What they did hear was Jodi Arias telling police, no, he didn`t own a gun before she changed her story and said it was at the top of his closet.

KARAS: Yes, indeed. I just want to tell you the jury did not have any notes. We`ve confirmed that. There were no notes today. You know, we wouldn`t have necessarily known it but we confirmed it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. So when you say notes, questions? Is that the same thing?

KARAS: Questions. Questions for the judge, right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. So they didn`t ask any questions. Wow. What does that mean?

KARAS: They have all the material they need. They have all the exhibits, they have all their notes. They have the jury instructions on the law. So they have everything they need to work with. So they`re just plowing through the one count. They`re plowing through premeditated, felony murder, maybe they passed it and they`re on second degree murder. Maybe they have a verdict and they`re sleeping on it.

CASAREZ: And you know what it shows, what Beth is saying, they know this case so well. They know this case inside and out. So they don`t need to ask a question, at least at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating stuff. Again, the clock has stopped. The jurors have gone home for the day. But the folks here who have come from all over the country and indeed some from Canada are still here. And they want to know, what will the jury decide? More on the other side.


ARIAS: If I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life. I`m not guilty. I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are gearing up for another unbelievable murder trial. This woman, Karen Kelly, is accused of murdering her boyfriend at her Florida home. Like Jodi, prosecutors say Karen has given several different explanations for the shootings, even claiming her lover shot himself.


KAREN KELLY, ACCUSED OF KILLING LOVER: He took the gun and shot himself.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will this accused murderess blame the victim like Jodi blames Travis Alexander? We`ll be all over it. You don`t want to miss it.



RYAN SMITH, HLN HOST: Let`s talk about the pressure the jury is under in determining Jodi`s fate.

CASAREZ: They will not only determine if someone is convicted of first degree murder, but they will determine if someone is sentenced to death.

KARAS: They are questioned about this in the beginning and they are excused if they cannot decide between life and death. So every juror who will be deciding Arias` fate has already said they could impose death if it is warranted.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. The prosecutor headed for Murder One. He wants Jodi Arias to get the death penalty. Well, the defense attorney, Kurt Nurmi, argued in his closing argument, look, this might have been a situation where she just snapped and that would be manslaughter, in his opinion. Listen to this and we`ll debate it.


NURMI: Couldn`t it also be that after everything, everything they went through in that relationship that she threw him down again, that she did grab for the gun to defend herself, that after that she simply snapped? She may not know it, but she may very well have snapped.

If Miss Arias is guilty of any crime at all, it is the crime of manslaughter and nothing more.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s debate it. What`s our argument, pro or against manslaughter? Starting with Jon Leiberman.

JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBURO: I don`t see manslaughter at all here. I mean look, this jury during the trial asked a number of commonsense questions. And if you look at common sense, you would almost have to -- you would have to chalk everything up to the murder. You would have to chalk it up to coincidences between the gas cans, the robbery of the gun, the receipts, the license plate upside down. I mean, you know, this is a commonsense jury and I don`t think there`s any way they`re going to come back with manslaughter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rene Sandler for the defense?

RENE SANDLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s about provocation. Did the defense generate under the law adequate provocation to go before the jury for them to consider manslaughter? And the answer is yes. So the jury has enough to consider it, whether they accept or reject it, we`ll see. But enough is before the jury, absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me show you the jury instructions, 22 pages, big words and legalese. I`ll ask you to hold that for a second. Now, this is how I try to boil it down, just show you some of the notes that I have. I have a sharpie ready if there`s a verdict. And of course, they`ve left for the day. But this is what I established in the morning. I would be able to check off as it happens so I wouldn`t get confused.

Now Beth Karas, you explained to me that there are some nuances here that most people haven`t discussed. Because we`ve all talked about first degree, right, guilty, not guilty? Then second degree and then manslaughter. But it`s actually a little different than that, you were saying -- ok, let`s say they are unable to agree or say not guilty on first degree, they go to second degree. Then where does the manslaughter come in? It`s actually a mitigator?

KARAS: Yes, it`s a mitigator. The jury, if they find her guilty of second-degree murder, then and only then should they go down to manslaughter to consider the sudden quarrel or heat of passion. You see this theory of manslaughter is not totally subsumed within second degree, so it`s not lesser included. It has that additional element, the sudden quarrel.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What I think you`re saying -- you`re a former prosecutor. But it`s good but what I think you`re saying is if they decide, ok, yes, she`s guilty of intentional killing -- second degree but it`s not necessarily premeditated or felony murder -- then we have to decide whether or not it happened as a result of a provocation and it was therefore heat of passion, sudden quarrel.

And if we do decide it was result of a provocation and it was a sudden heat of quarrel passion killing, then we drop it down to manslaughter?

KARAS: Yes, you said it very well. That`s exactly right. It`s manslaughter punishable by up to 21 years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that`s seven to 21, she`s already done about five. So that would be a huge victory for the defense. But we don`t know. We`re just looking at the options tonight.

More on the other side.


ARIAS: I didn`t commit murder. I didn`t hurt Travis. I would never hurt Travis. I would never harm him physically. I may have hurt him emotionally and I`ll always regret that.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You know, there`s so many fascinating things happening outside the Maricopa County courthouse. Jackie, my assistant -- give me this. This woman who is a crime victim came up and handed me her theory of the case in a florescent yellow piece of paper and it makes a lot of sense. I`ll tell you about it on the other side.


MARTINEZ: Those are the truest words spoken in this case and they are spoken by Mr. Alexander even though he is not here through his writing. You, Jodi Arias, are the worst thing that ever happened to me. Any doubt that that is the truth?

Do we need to look at the pictures of his gashed throat? Do we need to look at the sort of frog-like state that she left him in?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutor Juan Martinez says that Jodi Arias hatched a plot to kill Travis Alexander after getting a message from Travis saying "You are the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life and you have betrayed me." We don`t know what that betrayal was precisely.

Dave Hall, what would have gotten Travis so very angry? Because he had already his tires slashed, et cetera, but this was more than that.

HALL: We can only speculate at this point what that was. He did say that it hurt him deeply even more so than losing his father. So obviously it was something very serious to him that got right to the core. That is why he probably said some things to her that were a little bit out of character in print that showed up in court because you never heard Travis talk like that. So it was something that really hurt him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Something that Jodi did that hurt him more than -- did you say losing his own father?

HALL: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More than -- what could that be? What could that betrayal have been that hurt Travis Alexander more than losing his own father? We do not know. That sounds like a heck of a lot more than just hacking into his social media accounts.

More on the other side. I want to show you, we have a piece of paper from a crime victim. She dropped it off and she`s made some extraordinary points about this case. We are going to talk about them on the other side.


ARIAS: I was asked the question if you were presented this evidence and you`re a third party, what would you think? And I need to be honest, the evidence is very compelling. But none of it proves that I committed a murder. None of it proves that I committed a crime. What it does substantiate is what I did tell the detectives.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: The clock has stopped. The jurors have deliberated about seven and a half. They are coming back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m., an hour later than expected. 10:00 a.m. Phoenix time -- 11:00, 12:00 -- 1:00 p.m. New York time or Eastern time. Now, a woman -- to show you the fascination of this case -- a woman came up and handed me this and said I am a crime victim, I don`t want to be on camera, but I want you to know these points and then ran off.

And so here I am with attorney, Jordan Rose, she makes some incredible points. The rope, if Jodi had been tied up during sex I`m quite sure they would have taken photos of her tied up along with the nude photos -- great point.

ROSE: Absolutely. I mean Jane, these people seem to take photos of every other thing that they did that day and other days. And so, of course, they would have. I love that point. I think it`s wonderful. I wish she was on the jury.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And fascinating. Now, here is another one I thought was fascinating. Magic hands -- she says there wasn`t any blood on the light switches, door knobs, washing machine or garage door. How is it that Jodi comes out of the fog in the middle of the desert and looks and sees blood on her hand? Another excellent point.

You know, sometimes we think we have covered all of the bases and somebody runs up with a piece of fluorescent cardboard paper and you realize no, we have not figured it all out. This is what the jurors are going to be doing as they continue their deliberations tomorrow.

Join us here tomorrow. We will have it all live from outside the courthouse.

"Nancy Grace" is next.