Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Obama on Surveillance; Privacy vs. Security; Valedictorian Breaks Rules

Aired June 07, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Not just your phone. The feds with access to your e-mail, your photos. You're about to hear both sides. Why you should be worried and why you should embrace it.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

A judge changed the rules as she fights for a lung transplant. And now we're hearing she's not alone.

The moment the military blew up one of its own.

Plus, a valedictorian stuns the crowd in the middle of his speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED VALEDICTORIAN: Our Father, who art in Heaven --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This young man tells me, live, why he decided to break the rules.

And a man fathers 22 kids with 14 different women.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just young and ambitious and I loved women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: He's being sued and even the judge has trouble keeping track.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Williamson (ph) (INAUDIBLE) and Fan (ph) (INAUDIBLE), Johnson (ph) (INAUDIBLE), different Johnson (ph) (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We're on the case.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

In fact, you may have heard him right here on CNN, the president saying, no, the government is not listening in on your phone calls. This is his first response to this outcry over the government data mining story that erupted late Wednesday. He took a question on the matter while in California today. And he answered, for nearly 10 minutes. Here he was, the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I came in with a healthy skepticism about these programs. My team evaluated them. We scrubbed them thoroughly. We actually expanded some of the oversight, increased some of the safeguards. But my assessment, and my team's assessment, was that they help us prevent terrorist attacks. But I think it's important to recognize that you can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. You know, we're going to have to make some choices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, that is the word straight from the president. And keep in mind, since last time we met, right here, this time yesterday, we have now heard this second government data mining effort that calls into question our eroding sense of privacy. And we're going to go there in just a moment here.

But first, let me go straight to Jessica Yellin, our chief White House correspondent.

You are out there traveling with the president. And so, Jessica, ironically enough, we need to point out that the president is in California, eventually this evening, to meet with the leader of China and to press allegations of Chinese hacking against the United States. Obviously, though, the president found it necessary to take that final question after talking about the health care and to trying to tamp down the emotions surrounding this huge story.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It is an interesting juxtaposition, Brooke, that the president pressing China about their own cyber attacks when looked at through a certain lens you could say the federal government is doing its own cyber intrusion into U.S. corporations to get data about people that they're concerned about.

Now, I want to read you something. Just listen to this for a moment. Quote, "we do not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval. And this government will continue to guard the privacy of the American people."

Who do you think that was? That was George Bush in 2006 defending his NSA surveillance program. And I would argue that it should not come as a surprise that the president, while he says he's putting in new safeguards, et cetera, has continued that program in its -- in the larger sense because he voted to continue the law authorizing it. He broke with Hillary Clinton in his fierce defense of it in 2008. And he has been an aggressive defender of these kinds of programs during his time in office. He did make clear, I'll say, Brooke, that Congress has oversight of this, and the courts do. But we should point out that the details of this are only shared in classified settings in a way where the public cannot find out about them. So it's a very small set of people who have known about it until now.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, he mentioned congressional oversight a couple of times when he spoke today and the federal judges and the audit process, of course. But as you know and I know, and our viewers know, these go back --

YELLIN: In classified settings.

BALDWIN: Yes.

YELLIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Seven years.

Jessica Yellin, thank you very much.

And we mentioned this before here, this is a second surveillance program that is now coming to light. Two respected papers, you have "The Washington Post," you have London's "Guardian." They say that the NSA and the FBI are acquiring personal data of non-Americans, via nine leading Internet firms. You see them right here on your screen. So, now we know, it's not just phone records, which we talked about yesterday in depth, but also photographs and e-mails.

Although, let me stress again, the government says it does not access Americans' online data, just that of non-Americans suspected, you know, bad guys. This is a big point to remember here. Remarkable here is how well intentioned and thoughtful individuals are seeing this matter in dramatically different ways.

So with us now from New York, noted civil rights attorney Alan Dershowitz. And from Dallas, Ben Ferguson, host of "The Ben Ferguson Radio Show."

And since, Ben, you were with us yesterday, you're back for day two, let me defer to, first, Alan Dershowitz, the good professor, on this one first.

And, Alan, this is my first question. And we watched you on "Piers Morgan" last night and one thing you said that struck me was, we need to take a deep breath before we overreact because we don't really know what's going on here. But isn't that part of the problem, professor, that we really don't know what's going on? We don't know what we don't know, to quote you, and that we think we know what's happening, but that may really just be the tip of the iceberg? You with me?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, in a democracy, you have to know what you don't know. And sometimes we're prepared to give up our ability to know something in order to keep secrets from our enemies. Remember today that anything we know, they know.

The great tragedy is that the story was broken by a man named Glenn Greenwald from "The Guardian." He's an America basher. He hates America. He's an apologist for terrorism. He says a little terrorism is not a bad thing. It's like being struck by lightning. In fact, he doesn't even approve of the use of the word terrorism. He said terrorism is an excuse for allowing America and America's allies to use our own state terrorism. So he's the worst possible person to begin this debate.

We need nuance. We need calibration. We need, as the president correctly said, to be willing to compromise with some privacy, and some convenience, as long as we have oversight, as long as it doesn't go too far, as long as we limit it to gathering general information. And when we get particularized information, we need to have a warrant. We need to reduce the secrecy that our courts operate under. But let's not let Glenn Greenwald and his anti-American group push us into a paranoia. This is not Watergate. He makes it sound like the president is doing this in order to get political information against his enemies.

BALDWIN: Ben Ferguson is laughing. The mention - the mention of Watergate.

BEN FERGUSON, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Yes.

BALDWIN: Ben, jump in.

FERGUSON: Yes, Brooke, this is the -- this is a classic example of attack the person who gave us legitimate information. Make him into a terrorist-loving un-American human being --

DERSHOWITZ: He is.

FERGUSON: And then just discredit who he is as a person. When the reality is, what he reported on is factually correct and accurate. You didn't say that anything that he reported on was factually incorrect or accurate. So you try to smear him personally.

DERSHOWITZ: Absolutely. A lot of it is inaccurate. No, a lot of it is inaccurate. Let me - let me -

FERGUSON: Now, let me - let me - hold on -

DERSHOWITZ: Yes. OK.

FERGUSON: OK. Let me say this, though.

DERSHOWITZ: Uh-huh. Yes.

FERGUSON: You look at what has come forward on this. And as an American citizen, do I have the right to not have to worry about search and seizure of information that I am using, whether it be the Internet, e-mail, or my phone records, without probable cause from the government? The last I checked, the Constitution says that I have, and every American, should have a legitimate right to not have to worry about the government coming in and data mining my entire existence that has now been reported to the American people. And that's why people have a problem with it because this is outside the scope of terrorists, terror suspects, or those that are talking to terrorists. And that's why people are reacting this way.

BALDWIN: Let me - let me jump in. Let me jump in because, Ben, this is also to you, and, again, we - you know, you're a conservative, you come on this show as a conservative -

FERGUSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: But let me just read you something from the - this is from the editorial page of "The Wall Street Journal," also known to be quite conservative. Quote, "data mining is less intrusive on individuals than routine airport security." Let me stress, they say "less intrusive than routine airport security." "The data sweep is worth it if it prevents terror attacks that would lead politicians to endorse far greater harm than civil liberties."

DERSHOWITZ: Let's remember too - let's remember -

FERGUSON: But, Brooke - Brooke, let me say this about "The Wall Street Journal."

BALDWIN: Hang on. Go. Ben. Ben, fist. Go ahead.

FERGUSON: Let me - let me say this about "The Wall Street Journal." I have the right at the airport to not ever fly. If I don't want to have the government look at my stuff, go through my bag or make me walk through a metal detector, I have the ability to opt out of that by choosing not to fly. What the government is doing (ph) with, the data mining today, you and I, no one watching right now has the right to opt out of it in the words of the government and what they're doing. That is two totally different scenarios that "The Wall Street Journal" should have pointed out, that you can choose to just get in your car and drive from point a to point b.

BALDWIN: But what about the fact, and I'm just -- let me just express the view that we heard from the president today talking in California, again saying it is phone numbers when it comes to the phone calls. It's not the content of the conversation. Specifically on e-mails, it's not U.S. residents, U.S. citizens, it's folks abroad and it's metadata, which we're going to get into the technical stuff later in the show.

DERSHOWITZ: You know, we're hearing -

BALDWIN: But there's a fine line.

FERGUSON: Well, the question is -

BALDWIN: Alan Dershowitz, jump in.

DERSHOWITZ: We're hearing - we're hearing a lot of lies about what's going on. A lot of lies. We heard lies last night from Greenwald. He says that we're not targeting terrorism. He says this is because we want to get political information against political opponents. It's just not the case.

For 50 years we had data mining. Right now it's been permitted under the law without a search warrant to find out if you send letters, who the letters are going to, who the letters are going from. Almost all the information is available today to private companies, Google. It's much worse when the government can put it all together. These are serious -

BALDWIN: And that's what people take issue with, that it's coming from the government.

DERSHOWITZ: These are serious issues that ought to be debated, but they should not be overstated.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: There is a paranoid streak in American life. Radio talk show hosts tend to foment that paranoid streak in American life. People like Greenwald (INAUDIBLE) paranoid straight to the American --

FERGUSON: I - I think you actually need to listen to what - again, this is - this is the classic example -

DERSHOWITZ: Now you have to - now you have to let me finish.

BALDWIN: Hang on. Let the professor finish.

DERSHOWITZ: Now you have to let me finish.

BALDWIN: Let the professor finish.

DERSHOWITZ: Now you have to let me finish.

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

DERSHOWITZ: Let's find the facts.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: Let's not overstate the facts.

FERGUSON: OK.

DERSHOWITZ: Then let's have --

FERGUSON: You've said that.

DERSHOWITZ: Considered decisions about how to balance -

FERGUSON: Brooke.

DERSHOWITZ: The real need to prevent terrorism with the real need to preserve our privacy. That's a very important balance.

BALDWIN: Ben Ferguson, it's a valid -

FERGUSON: Again, (INAUDIBLE) -

BALDWIN: It's a valid concern because people are saying we only know potentially a sliver of what's going on. So how can we even have a well-informed debate about this?

DERSHOWITZ: We - that's right. And we have to know more. We have to know more about the general (INAUDIBLE).

FERGUSON: When you see the other -

BALDWIN: Ben, you thought.

FERGUSON: Let me - let me jump in here. When I see government officials and guys that are sitting on the TV next to me they (ph) trying to personally bash anyone that gets in the way of what it is he wants, that's a red flag to me. When he says that talk show hosts and everyone else is overreacting, and everyone else is acting like they don't know what they're talking about and they're lying to you and they're lying to you, I've heard that a lot in politicians lives and I've heard that from people who, for example, Richard Nixon, congressmen, senators who say, well, you're just paranoid.

Here's what we do know. We know a lot of information is being looked at by people that are not connected to terrorists, including every phone number that is being used, for example, in the Verizon network. That's a fact. So I'm not paranoid to ask the question of a government who has lied to us about targeting people through the IRS, who have attacked reporters who are reporting on stories in the last month, who lied to us about Benghazi, to say, maybe I don't trust you with this information.

BALDWIN: OK. All right. All right, gentlemen, we're going to keep asking the questions and we potentially really, as the professor is saying, only know a sliver of this.

DERSHOWITZ: Don't trust, verify, find the facts.

BALDWIN: We are verifying.

DERSHOWITZ: Right.

BALDWIN: We want the facts. Alan Dershowitz and Ben Ferguson, gentlemen, thank you very much.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.

FERGUSON: Thanks for having us.

BALDWIN: This is not going anywhere anytime soon.

Meantime, new government figures on jobs, they are out. The economy added 175,000 jobs in May, but the unemployment rate bumped up 0.1 percent. The White House admits, quote, "more work needs to be done," while some Republicans are slamming the Obama administration for, as they're calling it, failed policies. Looking at the big board behind me now. The Dow jumping at the release of the jobs figures this morning. You can see the Dow Jones is up 148 points. It's above that 15,000 mark. That is a good thing. We want to continue chugging in the right direction. Always check the numbers, cnnmoney.com.

As for Tropical Storm Andrea, moving fast up the East Coast. Andrea is churning up the surf in the Carolinas. It is expected to drench 13 states, all the way from Georgia to Maine. The cleanup is on, as you can see here. This is Florida, where the storm spawned tornadoes, knocked down palm trees, causing flooding in some areas. As for you in the northeast, bracing for a deluge of several inches of rain and stiff winds are expected to hit this weekend.

And now to this story. You heard about this? One man, 12 children by 14 different women. What did I say? Forgive me. Twenty-two children, 14 different women. I stand corrected. And now they are taking him to court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Britain (ph) versus Shaw. We have Jenkins (ph) and Shaw, Williams (ph) and Shaw, and Infeign (ph) and Shaw, Johnson (ph) /Shaw, different Johnson (ph) /Shaw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK, that was a judge rattling off different women. This is adding up to be one of Nashville's most expensive child support cases. Find out who's paying for this.

Plus, a protest and a prayer. The valedictorian whose defiant shows of faith has gone viral. What he said. Really, it's also what he did during his speech absolutely stunned the crowd and potentially some of you. He will join me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just in to us here at CNN, one of America's most notorious serial killers died this morning in a California hospital. Richard Ramirez, better known as the "night stalker" who terrorized southern California back in the mid '80s, beating, slashing or shooting his victims, he was in the midst of a carjacking when people living in an east L.A. neighborhood captured him. Ramirez was found guilty of 13 murders and multiple counts of attempted murder, sexual assault, burglary. He was sentenced to San Quentin's death row. Prison officials say he died of natural causes. "Night stalker" Richard Ramirez died at age 53.

Valedictorian Roy Costner IV had been told the school rules which were no prayer at graduation. And you can't talk about your religion during your big speech. Well, might have heard that didn't sit well with Roy because he says God is the biggest part of his life. He had a preapproved speech prepared, but, as you're about to see, he ripped it up and did this instead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY COSTNER IV, VALEDICTORIAN, LIBERTY HIGH SCHOOL: I turned in my speech to Miss Lynn (ph), which she somehow seemed to approve. So obviously I didn't to my job well enough, so we're going to instead (ph) use a different one (INAUDIBLE) here. (INAUDIBLE). Most of you will understand what I'm saying. Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Defying the rules. You hear him reciting The Lord's Prayer in front of the crowd at Liberty High School in South Carolina. Take a look at the faces behind him. These were school administrators and teachers. But it was no shock to Roy's dad, who is a pastor. Roy had sought his dad's advice and his father talked to Piers Morgan last night, told him what that advise was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY COSTNER III, VALEDICTORIAN'S FATHER: My son came to me with his speech that had The Lord's Prayer in it and I said, look, if you're doing this for political reasons, don't. But if you're doing it because you feel led to do it, and you feel this is a part of your speech, then I want you to do it and I'll stand by you. And he said, good. Good enough for me. That's all I needed to hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Liberty High valedictorian Roy Costner IV joins me now live from New York.

Roy, good to see you. You have been a little busy lately. How are you?

ROY COSTNER IV, RECITED LORD'S PRAYER DURING GRADUATION: Very good. How about you?

BALDWIN: I'm doing well.

Let's begin with this. I want you to take me back. You met with school officials before your speech. Did you tell them at the time you were going to mention God or even that you were thinking about it?

COSTNER: No, I did not let them know at all that I would be talking about God. They had told me -- they made it very clear that I could not in any shape, way or form.

BALDWIN: OK. So given that information that you had from the school, you go and you talk to your dad, who is a pastor, and tell me about that conversation.

COSTNER: Well, I spoke with my dad after I created this speech and I decided to do the prayer. And he came to me and he said, I want you to make sure this is not for you and that this is for God. And a bunch of other pastors said the same thing. And after about three or four days of devotion and prayer, I decided that this is what I felt God wanted me to do and I'm completely astonished and humbled that he would choose to use someone like me for something this big.

BALDWIN: So you went with your heart -

COSTNER: Yes.

BALDWIN: Even though the Pickens County School District said, you know, no God, no prayer in this speech. So with the school district, Roy, you know, in watching your video, and I was really watching some of the reactions of the school officials and the teachers on the stage behind you, which I realize, you know, you couldn't see them at the time, I imagine you've watched, you know, the video maybe at least once. What did you think of their reactions?

COSTNER: I am -- I'm surprised at the reactions of some. I did not expect the school board and some of the administration and staff to seem as pleased as they did, I guess, at some of the things that I was saying in the prayer itself.

BALDWIN: And in addition to looking at the faces, you can't really hear the sound. I listened to it earlier. Just for the viewer, you know, you did get some applause as you, you know, ripped that piece of paper up and began reciting The Lord's Prayer.

But here - here is my question for you, Roy. This is a question I have to ask. What if the valedictorian up there on stage wasn't you, was a Muslim or an atheist and, you know, the crowd cheered for you knowing your school, knowing the public school and the students you were with, would the crowd have cheered for them?

COSTNER: I hope that they would have, only out of respect for them, because they're standing up for their religion just as I did for mine. I don't know that they would, just because of our location. I would hope so, but I can't say.

BALDWIN: What do you mean by your location?

COSTNER: We're in the Bible belt of -- we are in the Bible belt here in South Carolina and it was Christian -- Christianity was a big, strong part of our community. And it has been for quite some time after the freedom from religion contacted our school district trying to restrict prayer and before school board meetings and from there our district took it to a different level, taking it out of school completely.

BALDWIN: So you're not totally sure how your school would have reacted. What about your Christian friends? How would they have reacted if someone had been reading from the Koran?

COSTNER: I'm sure they would - I'm not - I would hope that they would clap. Again, I can't say. Most of my friends would clap. My close friends would. But I -- no one would boo, because they -- out of respect for each other. Our high school is close knit, our community is close knit. So anyone like that, they would still support.

BALDWIN: And my final question for you is, and I heard this was -- this was your one worry, that you were worried you'd be punished. Are you surprised you weren't?

COSTNER: After -- once I began the - once I began the prayer, I am not surprised. But I was very surprised that -- when I began and ripped the speech up on stage, I thought they would come up and get me. I wasn't sure at all. I was extremely nervous that they would do something like that.

BALDWIN: Let me just read this from Pickens County School. "The bottom line is, we are not going to punish students for expressing their religious faiths."

Roy, congrats on graduating and good luck at Clemson.

COSTNER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, the ex-cop accused of killing his wife and setting their home on fire takes the stand. Hear why he says it's his fault.

Plus, a former member of the elite Navy SEALs reveals a secret she says might have killed her had it gotten out. Do not miss this story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: In Kansas today, ex-cop Brett Seacat took the stand again at his high profile murder trial. He is charged with killing his wife, Vashti, and then setting their home on fire two years ago after she served him with divorce papers. He maintains that she started the fire and that she then killed herself. Today he testified about telling their marriage counselor that Vashti was dead. You won't see him, but you will hear his voice. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you, at any time, tell her, I killed Vashti?

BRETT SEACAT, ON TRIAL FOR WIFE'S MURDER: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you tell her?

SEACAT: I told her Vashti's dead. It's my fault.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you believe it was your fault that Vashti was dead?

SEACAT: Because it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This is Seacat's second day on the stand. Yesterday, he raised a lot of eyebrows by cracking jokes that many thought were in poor taste.

OK, so, we started the show with the privacy debate. Now the legal debate. Let's get right down to it. What does the government surveillance program mean for your information or my information? Coming up next, someone who knows the NSA inside and out says the selection of data, to quote him, "is insane." Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)