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Government Surveillance of Americans Examined; Shooting Reported at Santa Monica College

Aired June 07, 2013 - 15:50   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": The president, you know, listening to him speak today, mentioned multiple times, congressional oversight, all three branches of the government are involved, there is a whole audit process in place.

Yet I sat and wondered, David, who should we hold accountable for this?

DAVID SIROTA, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I think it is the Congress and the executive branch, absolutely.

And I think that the point here is not -- there is not an either/or in my estimation. There is not either we're safe or we're spying on everyone. We have had laws in place for decades.

We have a thing called the Constitution which says we do not do mass surveillance. That's what this is. This is not individual, targeted surveillance on suspects. This is mass surveillance of everybody.

That should be offensive to liberals, should be offensive to conservatives, should be offensive to anybody who believes in the Constitution of the United States.

I reject the idea that the only way to make us safe, when we've faced even bigger threats than we face today, the only way to make us safe is to put the entire country under a system of mass surveillance.

BALDWIN: It is incredibly sensitive information and I read this quote in the Atlantic. Let me read this. This is from the writer, Conor Friedersdorf.

"To an increasing degree, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils. Bush and Obama have built infrastructure any devil would lust after."

I read this quote. It made me think of the drone program that has come under fire and the idea of the kill list and whoever inherits the next presidency, and inherits information, to go off this quote, is information that any devil would lust after.

Cornell, what are your thoughts about that?

CORNELL BELCHER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I wish we lived in -- I hear the terms absolutism, absolutism stuff. I wish we lived in a world where I could have it my way all the time and we as adults have to compromise certain things.

In the real world when terrorists are trying to kill us, we have to take measures of privacy versus security. That's the real world.

There is also a misunderstanding here. What the government is doing, is it ideal? No. What the government is doing is no different than, as a pollster, that I do. What they're really doing is running algorithms over large data sets looking for suspicious patterns, the same thing that happens when a bank and tech company runs algorithms and finds suspicious patterns.

If your bank hits you up and says something is going on, are you at such and such place doing something, there is an algorithm between the math and science.

BALDWIN: I see you, Sirota, shaking your head. Jump in.

SIROTA: That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. The government is using the power of the law enforcement agencies -- that's pretty crazy to say you as a pollster is doing what the government is doing by tapping into people's phone networks, their wireless networks, without anybody knowing, their social media networks, to watch them and to watch the patterns without any permission whatsoever.

BELCHER: Is your bank tapping -- is your bank watching your credit cards right now? Are tech companies watching what we're doing right now? Yeah, they are.

SIROTA: The Constitution applies to the government. The Constitution constrains the power of the government. Go back and read it.

If you read the Constitution, it is about constraining the power of the federal government to infringe on our privacy. That is different than an individual consumer's relationship with the company that may decide to ...

BELCHER: To make the accusation, you act like they're doing something illegal. The Congress has authorized this and the federal courts are watching over it.

They're not doing anything ...

SIROTA: It may be legal, but it is not right.

BELCHER: Then you should read the Constitution then because there is --

SIROTA: I think it will be litigated. I think it goes to the Supreme Court.

BALDWIN: Hang on, you're both talking at once. You both have valid points. Hang on, hang on.

SIROTA: My point is very simple. This will go to the Supreme Court in my estimation and will be challenged. It will be challenged on constitutional grounds. I encourage you to read the Fourth Amendment and see if ...

BELCHER: The Patriot Act is not ideal. We have problems with the Patriot Act. Congress reauthorized it.

Here is the other thing. You look at the polling data. Only 30 percent feels the actions are outrageous and violating civil liberties.

BALDWIN: Hang on. Hang on, gentlemen. Gentlemen, hang on.

You bring up polling data. I'm thinking of this interesting polling, a CNN/ORC poll,. think this is also fascinating because we group these people and ask, you know, how do you feel about this surveillance?

And it was like an under-50 versus over-50 and majority of people who were bothered by the government, you know, surveilling this information were the younger folks. And that surprised me.

When you think of the over-sharing of the younger generation, it bugs them more than folks over 50. Why do you think that is? To either of you?

SIROTA: I think it is because people who are young, who are younger, who use technology more often and have gotten used to technology being part of their lives have presumed there is a -- some sort of privacy there.

And that as that technology becomes central to their lives, that presumption is being ripped away by the Obama administration, which thinks it has the right to basically be watching over everybody.

I think that bothers people who in particular -- who technology -- where technology is a fundamental part of their lives.

BELCHER: I think it is healthy to be suspicious. I don't think -- I think it is healthy to be suspicious. I'm suspicious of it. I'm not comfortable with it.

Is it ideal? No. The alternative is for us to allow these terrorist organizations to coordinate activities here and do nothing that would be outrageous.

SIROTA: Can I respond to that quickly? It is incumbent on the people making that argument to prove to us that it is making us safer.

You'll notice that your guest has not pointed out one shred of evidence that this made this country any safer. He's thrown out an abstract argument that it is a choice of ...

BALDWIN: Part of the issue is we don't know as the American public. And I was talking to several lawyers on the show the last two hours, and they were saying, we just don't know.

And we're hearing sort of, you know, semi-nebulously from the chair of the House intelligence committee, you know, Mike Rogers, saying that this thwarted terrorist attack.

But I had someone else on the show -- and Mark Udall, Senator Mark Udall saying, you know -- on the committee, saying, I don't really know all the details.

We don't have the information and that's the frustrating part.

BELCHER: Well, we don't have the information, but Brooke, let me tell you -- let me ask you this. Do you think people have not tried to kill us over the last four or five years?

BALDWIN: Absolutely, they have. I was in Boston for three weeks. I know exactly ...

BELCHER: All right. Thank you. Well then, I rest my ...

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

SIROTA: Where is your evidence that the surveillance made us safer? Where is the evidence that surveillance made us safer?

You have none, and that's, frankly, what's incriminating about the argument on the other side.

BALDWIN: Gentlemen ...

SIROTA: This will make us safer, yet there is no evidence that it does.

BALDWIN: We're leaving it there. Great conversation. Come back. We're not over with this.

Cornell Belcher and David Sirota, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Want to move on, back to our breaking news as we reported moments ago, word of a -- this is new breaking news, word of a shooting at Santa Monica College in California. Shots fired on the campus.

We're getting the facts, making phone calls. Details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, we are getting some breaking news here in to CNN, the fact there has been now confirmed by Santa Monica police, a shooting at Santa Monica College.

Showing you the map. You can understand exactly where this is. A shooting has happened on the campus of Santa Monica College.

According to police, here is what we know. According to affiliates who are there for us, our Los Angeles affiliates, they are reporting that the suspect is down, that the suspect is down, but there are multiple injuries here.

And let me just talk live to the control room, Eric Hall (ph), tell me again. They're reporting -- I'll check my e-mail as I'm talking to you.

From KABC, Santa Monica College on lockdown because of an active shooter on campus. The shooting was reported at the school campus shortly after noon, so about 40 minutes ago, Pacific time.

It was unclear how many shots were fired or exactly where the shots were fired, three victims. They're putting a number on this. They say three victims were reportedly shot and found in a vehicle about a block and a half away from this school.

Authorities say one suspect was down, but there may be more victims. The investigation is ongoing.

And just broadening this out for you, we also know that -- we know the president is in California. He was actually en route to Santa Monica to attend this fundraising event. This is this Democratic National Committee fundraising event, so the Secret Service has also been notified.

Looking at my e-mail again, the Secret Service is saying, we are aware of the incident and it is not impacting the visit. It is a local police matter at this point.

Sadly we have covered these, so I can tell you in cases like this, what is happening right now is the campus is on lockdown, even though, according to these reports, there is one suspect who is down.

You have police, you have first responders rushing to the scene, obviously to tend to those who have been shot, those who have been injured, but also to set up a perimeter because they want to make sure no one is coming in, no one is going out, because there could be other shooters.

We don't know that, and they don't know that either. And it's that variable that is making them be extra cautious here in cases like this, to make sure they are catching anyone who could be responsible or involved in this.

Again, this is all happening, live. I'm checking my e-mail as I'm getting more information from my executive producer. Let's see.

So the president is currently at a fundraiser in Santa Monica. So keep in mind, not too far away from where this school shooting has happened sits the president, miles away from Santa Monica College.

The Secret Service, again, telling the traveling pool, folks who travel and cover the president, we are aware of the incident. It is not impacting the visit. It is a local police matter at this point in time.

So, again, if you are just now joining us, we have confirmation from Santa Monica police that there has been a shooting at Santa Monica College. Let's listen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: .... guns and I'm like -- and I hear students running and they're like going crazy. And I ask the guy, and he goes over. He's like, oh, there is a guy shooting on campus.

And I ran to my car as quick as I could. I was just so scared. I didn't know what to do, like, just ...

KARA FINNSTROM, CBS2 NEWS: We thank you for joining us.

There are a lot of students behind here, very shaken, very confused by what has taken place here. You can see some of the students behind us here. We're in a group of CHP patrol vehicles at this side of the campus.

We've seen helicopters overhead. We've seen also Santa Monica police and other agencies responding here. We've seen ambulances coming and going.

All we know at this point and all that we've been able to get confirmed, which we have been reporting on the air, is that there were multiple victims of this and that the suspect is down on campus.

Everyone here is still trying to get information and the students who were on campus, some of whom told us they were told to either shelter in place, that they were going to be locked down, or that they needed to leave.

And I'm sorry, I'm trying to get some information from our studio there, but we were told that -- the students here tell us that they were either asked to shelter in place or to leave the campus immediately, and that they did that, the ones we're speaking to here.

They're trying to call home and let folks know that they're OK.

Reporting live here from near the campus, Kara Finnstrom at CBS2 News.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kara, we know you've been scrambling to get information. You've collected a lot in a very short while.

I'm going to ask a question and say it the same way that Sandra did a moment ago. You may not have the answer, but we do have confirmation from the Santa Monica police department that a suspect is, quoting now, the Santa Monica P.D. , "down."

Do we know what that means, alive and in custody, or dead?

FINNSTROM: And I'm sorry. I couldn't hear all of what you had to say. There's a lot of commotion going on here.

I'm going to let the camera pan off and show part of the scene. If you could repeat your question there, I apologize. I couldn't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to find out if there is any way of knowing when the Santa Monica police department confirms a suspect is, quote, "down," does that mean alive and in custody, or dead?

FINNSTROM: It's a great question. I've been asking the California Highway Patrol who is at this entrance that exact question.

When I first arrived, they told me they understood the suspect was in custody, but they said they would like me to get further confirmation from Santa Monica P.D. who is handling this.

They have been trying, I believe -- you know, all these agencies working together, they're trying to clarify that as well. Just unclear at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, this is preliminary information, breaking news just coming into our newsroom, all Santa Monica schools, Santa Monica College on lockdown because of a shooting.

And, Kara, it sounds like the shooting might have been near the campus, when we're talking about buses and a person shooting into traffic and then perhaps the gunman somehow got onto the campus and into the library.

Is that your impression of what happened?

FINNSTROM: That sounds about right from what we're hearing from students, again, all of this very preliminary.

But what we were hearing from some of the witnesses here who heard the gunfire is that it may have taken place in the library or very close to the library.

When we first arrived, we can tell you that Santa Monica P.D. was interviewing a witness who was in the library and we're told he had quite a bit of information about what may have taken place.

He is no longer behind us. I think Santa Monica P.D. took him with them because he may have had important information.

We do have some witnesses behind us who are continuing to talk with CHP and have gone on to campus, but let's pan around and show you a little bit of the scene here.

You can see some of the students who are on campus, who are waiting, you know, to find out more information here, and if we pan around to the side here, you can see the highway patrol vehicles as well.

This is just a small amount of the force that we saw here. It appears many of these -- the law enforcement that responded has moved onto campus.

We have not been able to move in closer yet, but taking a closer look with this investigation obviously under way, trying to figure out exactly how many people have been hurt here. and whether that shooter has been wounded, is down, is in custody, all of that still not clear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kara, at the top of this very hour, nearly 48 minutes ago, you were not too far away at President Obama's fundraiser on the west side in the city of Santa Monica.

You got to this area in how long? How long did it take and were you passing police cars or were they passing you to get to this site?

FINNSTROM: I want to say it was five to 10 minutes, the drive here very quick. And really we were alerted because we were at a corner on San Vicente where there was a protest taking place.

There was a large group of people in the middle of the street, sitting down, actually, protesting, calling for immigration reform, and a police car actually pulled through the middle. We thought that was unusual.

And then, of course, we noticed a number of other law enforcement vehicles headed this way and that's when we came this way as well. But really just five to 10 minutes away, a massive force, obviously in place in this area already for the president.

Actually, if we can pan over, J.R., that's one of the ambulances that we've seen coming and going, this one with lights on, but no sirens. that have been coming and going from the campus here.

So, yeah, very close to where the president has been at a fundraiser this morning. Concerns about his security as well. But a good distance obviously away from where he was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kara, we're going to stay with you, our live pictures and stay with you. We just want to bring you a Twitter picture, very quickly. This is a picture posted on Twitter, just a little while ago.

And that bus you see on the right side of your screen right there, it looks like the Big Blue Bus from Santa Monica and there reports that this bus was at Cloverfield and Olympic and that there are bullet holes in the bus.

I can't tell from looking at that picture that there are any bullet holes, but, again this is a picture just posted on Twitter a few moments ago, a Santa Monica Big Blue Bus. This is the public transportation there in the city of Santa Monica, this bus at Cloverfield and Olympic. And there are reports that the bus has bullet holes in it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did talk with the CHP representative who said all of this ...

BALDWIN: OK, we're going to pull away from this. You've been listening to reporter Kara Finnstrom there in Los Angeles, who, as you heard -- we were reporting the president is mere miles away from where this campus shooting happened in Santa Monica, California.

He's there to attend this DNC fundraiser and now here we have another campus shooting, just to reiterate, according to affiliate reporting, and you just heard from KCBS, that they're saying that police are telling them that a suspect -- I don't know if it is the suspect or -- but a suspect is down and they're trying to get more information.

According to KABC, three people have been injured. And I have Sergeant Denise Joslin on the phone. She is with the California Highway Patrol, who, as we saw, is on the scene now.

Sergeant, are you with me?

SERGEANT DENISE JOSLIN, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL: Yes, I am, Brooke. How are you today?

BALDWIN: I'm doing OK. Let me just go straight to you. What do you know about what happened?

JOSLIN: Well, what I can tell you is that we initially started receiving some calls as early as 11:55 this morning, just before noon. We had multiple witnesses call in to report having seen a male adult holding several weapons and firing at -- into cars and at a bus.

We had reports that came in from some passengers on the bus that shots were fired into this bus and that there were possibly injured parties.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information to share with you with regards to how many people we may have injured on that bus.

Calls continued to come in. Within the Santa Monica area, including on Santa Monica College Campus as well of the shots continuing to be fired.

Of course, the school was placed into lock -- on lockdown. All of our information that we received from callers we did share with our allied agency counterparts, including Santa Monica P.D.

We have since set up a joint command post at which we have a CHP manager representative there. We have several CHP units on-scene, along with our allied agency counterparts, so that we are currently working to secure the area and continue our search.

We do have reports that there is one suspect in custody, but that we have had some additional reports that there's a possible second shooter that we are currently looking for now.

BALDWIN: OK. Couple of questions based upon what you just told me. You just mentioned one suspect in custody, so that tells me this person, one of the shooters, is alive and has been apprehended. Yes?

JOSLIN: You know, I don't have information with regard to the condition of the suspect. What I do have is in our log is an indication that one suspect is in custody. We are checking the area for reports of an additional active shooter.

But beyond that I don't have, again, any information to share with you regarding the status of that suspect.

BALDWIN: OK and -- go ahead.

JOSLIN: I was just going to say, if I may add to it, because it is just very, very important to us, you know, honestly, we're still concerned about the safety of all the citizens and residents in that area, so if you are watching this news broadcast today and you are in that area, I would simply ask that you'd please stay inside your homes. We don't want to see anyone place themselves in unnecessary harm's way.

And, most certainly, if you see anything that, you know, is alarming or anyone that you believe is armed with a handgun, please, you know, call 911 immediately. We will take that information and we will be able to use that to help in our continuation of the search of this area.

BALDWIN: And, Sergeant, as you are saying that, let me say this. We're getting this from Santa Monica School District. The Malibu -- this another note for those of you in this part of the country, the Malibu Unified School District Superintendent's office tells us that all of the schools in their district -- so all of the Malibu Unified School District, on lockdown at this moment.

And, again, just to stress in cases like these when we're just getting the information -- Sergeant, you know this so well -- is we're just getting the information. A lot of misinformation can get out there, so we just want to be very, very careful on what we're reporting.

Back to what you were initially saying, Sergeant Joslin, with this male adult, so that was news, that this was a "he," that this male adult with weapons, do we know what kind of weapons?

JOSLIN: I do not. You know, calls, again -- you know, we had multiple people calling in with different locations, different information and, as you correctly stated, we have to sift through this as best as we can, and our greatest concern is that we respond to the area and, obviously, eliminate the threat as soon as possible.

One report that we did have come in indicated that the shooter was holding a shotgun, and, you know, again, but I don't have confirmed information with regards to the types of weapon or weapons.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me just put a pause on this conversation. Let's listen to some witnesses here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had my headphones own, but I can still hear, like, a loud bang, but I didn't think nothing of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, guys, we're ready to move on.

BALDWIN: OK. So, forgive us for that.

Do we have -- Sergeant, are you still with me on the line?

JOSLIN: I am actually, yes.

BALDWIN: OK, let me just come back to you because, back to this male adult who you said was walking with these weapons and just started firing at a car, into a bus, from where was this adult walking? Was it -- was it on campus or off?

JOSLIN: Well, again, initially and I can just kind of cross-compare here. I believe it was within a few blocks of the campus initially.

Our very first report that we got from a witness indicated that the suspect was observed on a corner and just bear with me here. I believe it was 26th and Pico and Cloverfield were the first observations.

The intersections are within a block or maybe the very same block as our Santa Monica College.

So, all, again, very, very close and any time we have any type of an incident like this especially close to a school, you know, it's always imperative that we get the schools on lockdown immediately and secure the safety of our students, the teachers and the rest of the citizens out there.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. Let me -- Sergeant, stay with me. Let me just dip back in. Let me just dip back in. We're just doing this live. Dip back in to KCAL coverage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, tell me what you saw, what you heard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, I was in the computer lab. I was on Facebook and I saw everyone running back towards the end of the -- the back of the library and saw I went out and saw/

And an alarm went off, and then immediately I heard a shotgun blast and like at least eight probably hand gun blasts, what seems to be. It was definitely handgun, I know, because I hunt, so it was a shotgun and then, like, at least eight handgun blasts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any of the people who were injured?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not. I was in the back of the library. I was too busy rushing to get out of there, so ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're glad you're OK. You said you did speak to someone who was closer to the front?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I saw -- I spoke to someone who actually saw both the shooters. He said that one of them had a shotgun and one of them had a handgun so ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this is something we haven't had confirmed, we should clarify here, by police, but ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; Another witness there is telling you that he saw two shooters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that's correct. One was dressed in black overalls with dreadlocks. He was white. And then I don't know about the other one, but I know that he saw a second one as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And tell me what you did hear, what you did see right after those gunshots were fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right after I saw the -- or right after I heard the gunshots fired, I went to the football field and I went through the parking structure to evacuate.

And then I saw a car that was on campus which had at least four bullet holes in the side of the car in the passenger's seat and the window was shattered as well. It was just parked on campus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this was parked on campus a distance really from where the other shooting was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, not even close to the library, so it's really a mystery.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, you were on campus at the time. You're a student. What were you told by school officials right after this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was not told anything. Honestly, everyone was panicking in the library.

There was people holding the doors open, so I just assumed to book it that way. We went through the emergency exit and I just followed everyone else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you received any texts from the college? What have you been told now? You guys are all gathered here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far as we know, it's on lockdown. We don't know if they're going to open it up again. But so that's all we know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We thank you very much for joining us. And what is your name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: James, a student here, what year are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My second year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We appreciate you joining us, so quite a bit of, as you can see ...

BALDWIN: Once again, just, too, if you are just joining us. we're looking at some pictures from Santa Monica as there has been a school shooting. There has been a school shooting here at Santa Monica College.

At least we're told -- I was just talking to a California Highway Patrol spokesperson on the phone with me, telling me that one suspect has been -- or I should say, is in custody, possibly as you just heard from that eyewitness speaking with one of the reporters in L.A. saying that another shooter has been seen.

So right now we know that all of the Malibu Unified School District schools are on lockdown now. Let's take a listen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... from the badge and the shoulder pads, that's CHP. I wonder if we can listen in for a second.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. We have with us -- we do have with us Jose Claveria with the CHP. We appreciate you joining us.

We know that -- you were explaining to me that there's not a lot of information you can give us, but tell us what's happening on the campus right now.

JOSE CLAVERIA, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL SPOKESMAN: All we have right now is multiple police agencies in there, Santa Monica P.D., LAPD. They are securing the scene and then checking the perimeters.

Right now it's considered an -- still an active scene, so all we can do right now is just keep the public out and the students until we get the all-clear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you have students still on campus that are kind of sheltered in place that you want to get out.

CLAVERIA: That's what one of the other students were saying, so I'm assuming the departments that are in there right now are making the preparations, if they actually are in there, to get them out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What can you tell us about what's occurred here?

CLAVERIA: You know, you know as much as I do. We just got called to the scene and right now all we're tasked with is doing the perimeter and keeping students out of the campus.

BALDWIN: You've been watching breaking news out of Santa Monica, Santa Monica College school shooting.

Jake Tapper and "THE LEAD" takes things from here.