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CNN Saturday Morning News

California Gunman Kills Four; Nelson Mandela Back in Hospital; Ariel Castro Indicted in 329 Counts ;Witness to Santa Monica Shooting; Obama Defends Surveillance Programs

Aired June 08, 2013 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I'm Pamela Brown.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Victor Blackwell. It's 7:00 on the East Coast. We're glad to have you.

We are starting this morning in California where we are still waiting to learn the name of the man who went on the shooting rampage in the ocean front city of Santa Monica. Authorities now say the suspect killed five people, wounded five others before police killed him. Now, earlier reports said that six victims were shot to death but that was changed.

Now, police say the shooting spree started at a home near Santa Monica College and then spilled on to campus, just 10 minutes from where President Obama was holding a fund-raiser. Though we don't know the shooter's name, police say he was between 25 and 35 years old, apparently wore black tactical gear, and was armed with pistols and a rifle with extra clips.

BROWN: CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Santa Monica this morning.

And, Miguel, tell us what is the latest in the investigation?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we're out here in front of the university, Santa Monica College, where investigators say they have taken away a number of bodies, a huge number of coroner vehicles and personnel here and then throughout the town last night, you know, this thing, you know, rage throughout the middle of Santa Monica. And they are continuing to investigate the college here to get to the very bottom of what happened here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ (voice-over): A deadly rampage rolling through the streets of Santa Monica: 11:52 a.m., the first 911 call, a man wearing all black clothing and tactical gear leaves this house. Inside, two victims believed to be the shooter's father and brother.

JERRY CUNNINGHAM, NEIGHBOR: He was coming out of the house, the gate of the house across the street, and then I noticed that house was on fire. And I thought he'd been firing into the house. MARQUEZ: The gunman jumped into a car forcing the driver with him. Minutes later, he opened fire on a Santa Monica City bus, no deaths thanks to a quick-thinking bus driver.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happened in front of me. I mean, I was in my car and a guy on the left side of the street jumped out of the car with a big, black gun and started blasting rounds at the cars and buildings and bus.

MARQUEZ: Then, just minutes after that, the gunman shot up a building at an intersection in Santa Monica, and then forced his driver to take him to Santa Monica College. where the shooting spree continued.

BETH TOPPING, WITNESS: I heard a couple of gun shots and someone came running into our office and told us that someone had a gun and to get out. And I instinctively run into the hallway and when I got out there, I saw a gentleman dressed in all black.

MARQUEZ: The incident cut a mile-long deadly path through the heart of Santa Monica, from the house that was set on fire to the library at Santa Monica College, packed with students studying for finals.

JOE ORCUTT, WITNESS: He just looked like he was standing there posing for the cover of a ammo magazine or something. It was very bizarre. Very calm and not running around or yelling, just looking around for targets very casually.

MARQUEZ: Less than 15 minutes after it started, it was over -- four victims and the gunman, dead.

CHIEF JACQUELINE SEABROOKS, SANTA MONICA POLICE: The officers came in and directly even gauged the suspect and he was killed at the scene.

MARQUEZ: His body moved from the library and taken to a sidewalk where he was finally pronounced dead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Now, we know the officials say they know who the suspect is. They may have served warrants on different locations last night -- as early as last night, and that may be going on today as well. But they are moving full steam ahead with the investigation.

And they also believe he had more than just a couple weapons. We had reports of the AR-15-like weapon and the handgun as well, and he had a bag filled with ammunition and possibly other weapons. And so, that will be part of the investigation as well to figure out whether or not those are all owned legally and what set him off at the house with presumably the relatives and then why in the world did he end up here at the college.

Back to you guys.

BROWN: All right. Miguel, thank you so much.

And you mentioned there, Miguel, the shooter may have been related to the two people killed inside the home. We are getting new details this morning -- we want to check in now with "L.A. Times" reporter, Andrew Blankstein.

Andrew, welcome.

ANDREW BLANKSTEIN, L.A. TIMES (via telephone): Good morning.

BROWN: First question for you. What you have learned about the investigation this morning? You have some new information for us.

BLANKSTEIN: Well, in terms of the suspect and the first two victims northbound shot in the burning house, the suspect is related -- the victims are his brother and his father.

BROWN: His brother and father.

BLACKWELL: So, the two bodies found inside the burning house are the suspect's brother and father. The call is a bit muffled if the people at home couldn't hear that.

What are you learning about possible motive? Because we're hoping to find out who and if you know information about that, we would, of course, like that. But why he went to this house and even if going to the campus next was planned?

BLANKSTEIN: That's the big question. I mean, one of the things that sources are saying that it appeared it started at some sort of possible domestic case, but they are cautioning us very early in the investigation, and motive obviously is one of the most difficult things when you get an incident like this, you know? Some things, you can't explain on the surface, and gathering evidence you get a clearer picture, and that's what they are trying to do here.

Again, people did caution me away from saying this is domestically related, although on the surface, that's what it appears. In terms of -- they are not saying what they recovered, and there were multiple search warrants executed yesterday. So, I would imagine in the next couple days, you will really start to get a focus on it.

But, obviously, listening to some of the interviews that you were playing, you look at somebody that does, you know, seems to be doing something like this, and it's pretty harrowing.

And I have done a lot of stories like this, and each has their own unique set of facts. This was pretty unbelievable, a mile, 10 minutes, and it's just a trail of destruction, and ending up in the library where kids -- on a campus where kids are preparing for their final.

BROWN: Incredible to hear the witness, what they have to say, saying that the gunman was almost methodical in the way he carried out the shooting.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BROWN: Quickly, Andrew, any word about the suspect's mother? There was a divorce we are hearing, is that right? BLANKSTEIN: This is a report out there, and it's not really clear in terms of, again, whether this was motive and what the situation was, the relationship with the son, you know, and it still -- this is still part of what they are going to be focusing on, and I definitely talked to sources that said this is the starting point, but, again, the suspect was described to be in his 30s.

So -- and this apparently took place a while ago, so what does that mean? You are talking about adult son as opposed to teens or early 20s. So, it may have something to do with it but not entirely.

BROWN: Andrew Blankstein of "The L.A. Times" -- thank you for sharing your reporting with us this morning. We appreciate it.

BLANKSTEIN: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: You know, one question we were hoping to get the answer to was, was the attack on the campus planned? You would imagine if somebody was planning to go to the campus, he would not rely on just carjacking somebody that was driving by and he would have planned for that -- maybe spontaneous and maybe not. We are hoping to get more information from the authorities there in Santa Monica about the timeline and motive.

Eight minutes after the hour now. And, an actress in Texas is accused of sending ricin-laced letters to President Obama and New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg. The FBI says Shannon Richardson admitted to sending the letters, but said her husband forced her to do it. Her husband says she was lying to the FBI.

He has now filed for divorce, and Richardson is also pregnant. She faces 10 years if convicted.

South Africa's president is urging his country to pray for Nelson Mandela. The 94-year-old former South African leader was rushed to the hospital overnight because of a reoccurring lung infection. He said -- he has said, rather, to be in serious but stable condition. A presidential spokesperson says that Mandela is now breathing on his own. His wife is at his bedside.

We'll take you live to South Africa later in the hour for the latest on how Mr. Mandela is doing.

BROWN: And if you are flying today, good luck. Airports are warning about delays and cancellations, as Andrea moves up the coast all day. Anyone flying should check with their airline to make sure that their flight is on time.

So, that leads me to the next question.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BROWN: What's in store for the Northeast?

BLACKWELL: Meteorologist Alexandra Steele is here to tell you us, hopefully, it's not too bad. ALEXANDRA STEELE, AMS METEOROLOGIST: You know, it's improving. That's for sure.

Hi, everyone. Good morning. Walking up this morning, it is now post- tropical Andrea, if you did not know.

It has lost some of its tropical characteristics, but despite, it's semantics in some regard. Still, it has left behind flooding rain, a lot of destruction as well. It is speeding Northeast, that is the goodness, at 35 miles per hour. Maximum sustained winds are still at 45, but they are well off the coast.

So, other than being in Nantucket where we have high speed and high winds expected there today, really won't feel those kinds of winds inland.

What we've send, record rain, between three and five inches of rain. In Philadelphia, a record 3 1/2 inches, Kennedy in New York, 4 inches, and 3.3 in LaGuardia, so plenty of rain. A lot of flooding, you may have seen some of the pictures, and they were talking about the airport delays and we have plenty yesterday. Things will be better at the airports today.

Here's a look at where the rain is now. The rain is moving to the north and east, taking the center of circulation with it, which is good news. Further south, south of Washington, D.C. and in West Virginia and North Carolina, still some heavy rain coming down. A lot of moisture out there still. It's all ahead of this front.

To the west, believe it or not we got much drier air. So, we are seeing the clash of the air masses. Today, there is another threat of severe weather from Nebraska and through Kansas. So, what we are expecting, some large hail, damaging winds, possible tornados as well, from Omaha and Wichita, down even to West, Texas, to Amarillo and Lubbock.

So, a clash of the air masses are setting up. It doesn't look like a widespread severe event. But certainly, the chance for tornado is likely. And again, there is the dry air, and all the warm and moist air, and along the front, guys, that's where we have the potential for a tornado. So, just kind of keep an eye to the sky, and listen to the weather radios or across your TV screens, you will hear the warnings coming.

All right. Alexandra, that area is --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you.

We've got much more ahead this hour.

BLACKWELL: Here's what's coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (voice-over): He is accused of holding three women captive for ten years, but he is facing his own imprisonment for a lot longer. There are now 329 counts against Ariel Castro, and they only cover half of the victims' captivity.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy.

BROWN: Your phone, your e-mails, even your credit card records may be in the hands of the government. The debate on whether we have to choose security over privacy.

Ever been so hungry for pizza you just could not wait for the delivery man? What if you had your pie brought by a drone? That's what one company is experimenting with. That a new indivisible handcuff key in today's business talker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Cleveland kidnapping suspect Ariel Castro has been indicted on 329 charges. The former school bus driver is accused of holding Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight in his home for at least 10 years. The indictment describes years of brutal assaults, from chaining the victims to poles and cars, to tying vacuum cords around their necks. One charges accuses the 52-year-old Castro of aggravated murder for purposely causing the end of one pregnancy.

And here's the more detail breakdown of the indictment: 139 counts of rape, 177 counts of kidnapping, and seven counts of gross sexual imposition, three counts of felonious assault, and one count of possession of criminal tools.

CNN legal analyst Paul Callan joins us me now.

So, Paul, it is clear prosecutors want to make sure Castro stays behind bars the rest of his life, at the very least. Three hundred and twenty-nine charges, is this the type of indictment you expected here?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, I'm a little surprised. But, you know, this is a case of staggering brutality and cruelty. It defies the imagination what's been charged here. We are used to criminals who impulsively commit a crime.

But this is a planned abduction, kidnapping, torture, rape of these women over a 10 year period. And I think because of the amount of cruelty that the prosecutor had to send a message that this would be punished to the full extent of the law.

So, 329 counts right now, Pamela, and I know you have been covering the story closely from Cleveland and, you know, it only covers half the years involved. They probably could have charged over 600 counts or may in the future if they want to. But in the end, I am not sure it's such a great idea, because it's one thing to charge these things, but you have to go into court some day and prove each and every one of these allegations. Now, that's where I think you're going to get some problems, technical problems down the road.

BROWN: And on that note, Paul, I want to talk about this aggravated murder charge that Castro is facing. I can imagine this would be very difficult to prove because first you have to prove pregnancy of one of the women, and then you have to prove that he actually forced the miscarriage, is that right?

CALLAN: Absolutely. And, you know, like the other charges where the prosecutor will have to go back in time and say to one of the victims, do you remember being raped in April of 2005? How is she going to be remembering a particular day in April?

With this charge, you will have to prove there was a pregnant and a real pregnancy and the termination of the pregnancy happened as a result of beatings and, in fact, that a fetus was present. Now, these women were never treated medically. They were held captive for all of these years, and so there is no medical of the pregnancy, there is no autopsy on a fetus.

So, how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the pregnancy was treated by his action? You certainly would have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt to have any chance of a death penalty. So, I think that's a real uphill battle.

It's a tough law, Ohio has. It's called a Fetal Homicide Law. About 38 states have these laws, but they almost never impose a death penalty in a situation like this. It's usually when somebody murdered a pregnant mother and then you see the charge.

But here, you have a strange fact pattern and I think it's going to be tough for prosecutors to prove.

BROWN: So, there is no legal precedent for this in Ohio essentially, as far as the death penalty for killing a fetus. It's usually been when the mother was killed as well, is that right? Is that what you are saying?

CALLAN: Yes, there's absolutely no legal precedent for it. And I'll just add one complicating factor. The Supreme Court of the United States has also ruled that you can only impose the death penalty where a person has been killed. How would you prove a fetus was a person under U.S. law, because we don't even know what the stage of development was, you know? Was this a fetus that could have lived outside of the womb or not? If it could not have lived outside the womb, it would not be defined a person under U.S. law and would be an unconstitutional application of the death penalty existing law.

So, I don't think you'll see the death penalty there. But with 329 counts, he could get 3,000 years if you impose consecutive sentences and life. So, certainly, prosecutors have plenty of punishment to work with within the confines of what's already been charged. BROWN: All right. Paul Callan, thank you so much for your analysis. We appreciate it.

CALLAN: Thank you.

BROWN: And we'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: We really do tweet.

BROWN: We do.

BLACKWELL: We don't have our phones and stuff around us but --

BROWN: I do a lot of re-tweeting and I do tweeting.

BLACKWELL: OK. I tweet.

BROWN: All right. And we will be tweeting about this today: Friday's May jobs report showed a cautious hiring for the month, some possible contributing factors here. Let's take a look -- the possible cost of health care reform, forced spending cuts, and Europe's troubled economy. The unemployment rate ticked up at 7.6 percent in May, a slight increase in April, 175,000 jobs were added. That was better than expected. But some economists call the numbers, quote, "unremarkable."

BLACKWELL: What will they think of next? A handcuff key sold in a zipper on Amazon, and it has police concerned, obviously.

BROWN: Yes.

BLACKWELL: So, this is the plastic key, complete with the (INAUDIBLE). Now, this can be -- look at this thing. It can be hooked on to any jacket or even pants, you may think it's kind of like something that dangled there. No, it's a handcuff key, 11 bucks -- less than 11 bucks, actually.

It's invisible. You can't even see it. It's under plastic covering.

Now, the police commissioner sent internal memos to officers warning them about this key. It will not be detected by any metal detector. I guess, I don't know, does that key work for very set of handcuffs? I don't know much about handcuffs.

BROWN: Well, I have to say, I went to Amazon and actually read the comments. I was curious, and are people going to admit people use the key, and sure enough people said they did and it works.

BLACKWELL: They did.

Now, in criminal situations or if they had handcuffs for their own recreational issues.

BROWN: They were not detailed about it, probably for good reason. BLACKWELL: OK. All right. Understood.

BROWN: All right. Well, I'm a pizza lover myself. Are you a pizza lover?

BLACKWELL: Yes, see, I like black olives and ancho chiles.

BROWN: No, no. Those are two of my two least favorites, by the way.

BLACKWELL: We're both on my side.

BROWN: Well, have you seen a promotional spot, it's from Domino's Pizza? It's called the domino's drugs. So, forget the delivery man, it's about the domicopter, as they call it, Domino's franchise in United Kingdom, launched the pie into the air in this promotional spot that you see here.

Domino's corporate confirmed the video and they said the domicopter was the brainchild of one of the franchises in the U.K., and the domicopter delivers pizza and the company's signature heat wave bag. And get this -- best part about. It arrived at your door in 10 minutes.

Sad news here: don't expect the drones to take the place of your pizza driver anytime soon, the FAA still working on guidelines for commercial use of the drones in the U.S. And then you kind of think about all the people here who are going to want to shot down the drone to get their pizza, right?

BLACKWELL: It's all fun and games until the domicopter drops the pizza on the hood of your car and you have no idea what the thump is. And then you are happy it's a black olive and ancho chili pizza.

BROWN: No, straight cheese.

BLACKWELL: What?

BROWN: I know, that sounds pretty boring.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Not even extra cheese?

BROWN: OK, extra cheese.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about breakfast now. Dunkin' Donuts introduces this new item. It's the glazed donut sandwich. One fried egg, Cherry wood smoked bacon served between two blazed donuts.

All right. So, Pam and I, we had this yesterday. I had cheese on my -- did you have cheese?

BROWN: I didn't.

BLACKWELL: But you had the bacon?

BROWN: I had the bacon, yes.

BLACKWELL: Three hundred and sixty calories.

BROWN: I don't understand that.

BLACKWELL: See that? I don't believe --

BROWN: I don't know about that one.

BLACKWELL: It launched yesterday. That's when we had it. It will be a permanent menu item. So, what did you think of it?

BROWN: I actually, you know what? I liked it. I finished it off, so I guess that's a good sign, right?

BLACKWELL: I took one bite and I heard paper crumpling up behind me.

BROWN: I ate it in a record 10 seconds. I was also pretty hungry, too. But 360 calories, 100 calories less with the bagel sandwich.

BLACKWELL: Even with the doughnut.

BROWN: I thought donuts were worse for you than bagels.

BLACKWELL: I thought so, too. Maybe it's the sugar.

BROWN: I don't know.

BLACKWELL: Here's the thing for me -- I took a bite, not a fan, the flavor of the egg and the sweetness of the donut did not work for me.

BROWN: Savory and sweet isn't your thing?

BLACKWELL: See, I am not doing baking now, maybe I'll go back to baking one day, I don't know.

BROWN: Go back to baking. Give it a shot.

BLACKWELL: But that with a donut, maybe, but egg, cheese and a glazed donut, it didn't work.

BROWN: It didn't work. All right.

BLACKWELL: Try it, let us know what you think, tweet us --

BROWN: We disagree on that. We agree to disagree.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BROWN: All right. Coming up, more live coverage on the shooting in California right after this break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now for an update on mortgages. Rates climbed higher again this week. Let's take a look. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And bottom of the hour now, and welcome back, everyone. Thank you so much for being with us on this Saturday morning. I'm Pamela Brown.

BLACKWELL: Good to have you with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

Here are five stories we are watching this morning.

BROWN: Number one: a critical hearing in the George Zimmerman murder trial starts up in just a couple of hours. This is the last hearing before jury selection on Monday. The judge has to decide whether the voice analysis of the 911 calls be allowed at trial.

BLACKWELL: Number two, new information to the deadly building collapse in Philadelphia.

Listen to this: city hall sources tell CNN a crane operator demolishing the building had marijuana and pain medication in his blood and he could face manslaughter charges. During a demolition, a four-story wall fell on the Salvation Army thrift store. Six people died.

BROWN: And number three: in just a few hours from now, Newark, New Jersey Mayor Cory Booker is expected to announce his candidacy for Senate. His campaign released yesterday, giving a heads up on the announcement. He'd already had been exploring the idea to run for the Senate in 2014. Booker would run to fill the seat of the late Senator Frank Lautenberg.

Governor Chris Christie ordered a special election this fall to fill the seat.

BLACKWELL: Number four: Federal prosecutors want Jesse Jackson, Jr. to serve a four-year prison sentence. The former congressman pleaded guilty Friday for misusing more than $700,000 of campaign funds. Prosecutors also want Jackson's wife to serve 18 months. The sentencing is set for July 3rd.

BROWN: And our fifth top story: a meeting to, quote, "chart the future of China and U.S. relations". Words from the Chinese President Xi Jinping, who met with President Obama yesterday in California to talk about economic competition and new relationships between the nations. Obama said a peaceful and prosperous China is good for the U.S., but that, quote, "areas of tensions are inevitable." The pair will meet again today.

BLACKWELL: Now back to the morning's top story. We are still waiting to learn the name of the man that went on a shooting rampage yesterday. This was in Santa Monica, California.

Authorities now say the suspect killed four people and wounded five others before police killed him. They say the shooting spree started at a home near Santa Monica College and then spilled on to campus. And that was ten minutes from where President Obama was holding a fund- raiser.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Santa Monica this morning.

Miguel, what do we know? Let's start broadly, what do we know about the gunman?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, authorities know who the gunman is. You know, they do say he is a white person, between the ages of 25 and 35, but they know who he is. They had hoped to serve warrants last night in different locations that they want to check out that may not have happened. They may have to wait until today to do that.

We also know that the house where this initially started, the persons inside the house who were found shot after the house had been set on fire, they were his brother and his father. It is -- what's not clear is why he went on this -- one, why he killed them and then went on a rampage through Santa Monica and ended up at the college here.

He did carjack somebody right outside the home where he shot the two individuals and directed that woman, kept her in the car, directed her to the college here, and it's not clear why he came here, whether there was a connection. Police are still trying to figure it out. It's a massive scene. What felt like took hours to get through last night was actually about 15 minutes in total.

One witness at the school actually saw the shooter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH TOPPING, WITNESS: He looked very official to me. I thought maybe he was SWAT. He was in paramilitary gear, and he was sort of walking casually down the hallway and had a rifle across his chest. I was waiting from instruction from him as to where to go or what to do and he didn't say anything and he was just walking towards me. So, I ran with a colleague down the hall and when we got to the outside door, he was walking in our direction and I paused to look back at him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: He clearly prepared for this because he was wearing a uniform-like clothing and protective gear as well, but it doesn't seem that he had a bullet proof vest on. It had a vest on, but it wasn't a protective vest or bullet-proof vest.

He was also not shooting random people like the woman you heard talking there, and witnesses were not being shot at by him, and he didn't seem to be looking for them but then kept going. So, all of those questions coming to bear.

The bodies, the police say, have been taken out and the crime scene, they are getting evidence they can -- Pamela, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right. Miguel Marquez, live for us in Santa Monica, California, thank you. BROWN: When Pam Meserve saw the shooter, she thought he might be a security guard and then saw the rifle and watched him start shooting. She joins us now by phone from Los Angeles/

Pam, you got a look at the shooter. What I've been struck by is that he seemed so methodical, like he took his time to target his victims. What struck you?

PAM MESERVE, EYE WITNESS (via telephone): He was just very calm and a casual demeanor. He had when he was approaching the area that I was working at, and it was just -- it was just kind of very surreal at the moment. You know, I had heard the gunshots in the parking lot that was to my left, just prior to him coming in, and I thought that he was -- at first, I thought that he was with one of the security-type of drivers, and then I realized that he was actually shooting.

So I got up and I ran to the nurse's office and told everybody to get down. I ran through the corridor that I was in doing the same thing, yelling at everybody to run that a shooter was coming and I started running down the hall way and shots were fired. And I made it just into the mail room and closed the door and just yelled at anybody that was in there to get down.

BROWN: Bring us into that moment with you, Pam. What was going through your mind? What did it feel like? It seems like you had to be a leader in that moment.

MESERVE: Well, I was just trying to get everybody, you know, to just take cover and just run, just get everywhere. One woman in particular I know, and I ran to help and she fell and everybody else was running in every direction, and then he just, you know, he just methodically just calmly walked to wherever he was going, and I had no idea where he was going, and I just stayed in the mail room. We waited for a very long time. We could hear the gunshots.

BROWN: Did he seem to target anybody in particular or did it seem like he was just firing at random?

MESERVE: You know, it was so fast, I didn't know -- we just didn't know what a was going on. It was very frightening I would say.

BROWN: Pam Meserve -- I can imagine that you are still very shaken up by the experience. I'm glad you are OK and thank you for talking to us this morning, we appreciate it.

MESERVE: Yes, you are welcome. Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

President Obama says we need to compromise security for privacy. We're going to talk to the security expert about the government-tracking phone calls and mining data to find out what's really going on.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLACKWELL: The secret is out. The federal government is monitoring millions of domestic phone calls. The director of national security says it's legal and immensely important to national security. They say they are checking out who is being called and for how long but not listening in.

Here's President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's important to recognize that you can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. You know, we're going to have to make some choices as a society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joining me now is international security analysts Jim Walsh.

So, Jim, is it that simple, you want to be safe and give up privacy and be inconvenienced? Is that what it is now?

JIM WALSH, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, I was really disappointed by the remarks by the president yesterday. Lots of straw arguments, contradictions, and the one you led with is example one. No one is saying here that critics are not saying we need to have 100 percent privacy.

The president also in that press conference said, no, we are not listening in on conversations. Again, he is responding to an allegation that no one is making. No one is suggesting the government is listening to your conversations. What they are doing is watching the people, that your children, and your families are calling. If I call a friend, the government has that recorded. They keep it in a database and hold it for a very long time.

So, you know, at some point the government is going to have to step up and justify this. They're going to have to show that these sorts of surveillances against law-abiding Americans actually does improve security. You can't get up and say we need it, you have to show that and you got to show that without it, there would have been harm. In other words, maybe there are other ways to protect Americans that don't require this, but we don't know that because the president has not addressed that.

BLACKWELL: You notice, there's one element you mentioned, Jim, is making the point, that the administration is listening to your phone calls. But you know, that the challenge of this administration has been effectively getting a message across when it relates to health care, when it relates to tax increases. There are some people who say if the president does not come out and say this is what we are doing, this is not what we're not doing over and over, there will be people that assume that the government is listening to the calls.

WALSH: Yes, I think you are right about that. I also found a contradiction where the president talked about that. He says we need to have a national conversation.

Well, needed to have a national conversation seven years ago when this program started and then got reauthorized. We have secret courts. We have secret decisions by the administration, and we have a Congress that provides lip service oversight. Those committees are functioning -- it was only the Intelligence Committee functioning under classification laws and there are senators who objected but were legally prevented from saying anything because of classification laws.

We need to have a national conversation and we should not have to wait until there's a leak in order to have it.

BLACKWELL: This is an important point. I was walking out of my condo this morning and I was looking at the newspapers in front of my neighbor's doors at their doorstep, and one said, "Obama defends surveillance program and Obama's snooping policy."

Is this outrage misplaced? Because this is not just an Obama policy, this is a Bush policy that goes back several years.

WALSH: You are absolutely right. It's a policy that originated in the Bush administration. And, really, the root of the evil is the Patriot Act, section 215 of the Patriot Act, which I wrote about, you know, had an op ad the week it was passed.

You know, we all suffered tremendous trauma after 9/11, and then I think Congress made a mistake rushing to pass a bill without knowing what the problem was, without knowing whether this bill was going to solve the problem, and then we have been having the legacy every since.

But the issue here, though, is it's widened and it's widened and it's widened -- and this is the nature of government power that is unrestricted and not transparent. We learned from the link, even though we had suspicions that this was going on in the past, we learned this is the first ever FISA document that's has come into view, and we find that the government has interpreted the Patriot Act in the way that many people would find strange credulity. We find that the government has testified in public hearings, denying that this spying was taking place, and I think that's a problem. You know, and on and on.

So, yes, it's happened in the past, but it's something we need to address now or it's going to get worse and worse.

BLACKWELL: And that's exactly what's happening. Jim Walsh, thank you so much for the conversation.

WALSH: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Pamela?

BROWN: All right, Victor.

South Africa's beloved Nelson Mandela has been rushed to the hospital, his wife at his bedside. We'll take you live to South Africa for the very latest on his condition.

But, first, a self-taught inventor gives new meaning to the term recycling by creating a bicycle made from cardboard. Could this invention save the world?

Here is Dr. Sanjay Gupta with a preview of this week's "NEXT LIST".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IZHAR GAFNI, INVENTOR: Best way to test bicycle, take them and go ride. Go ride across the USA, go ride across this world.

My name is Izhar Gafni. I invented and built the cardboard bicycle.

It's a bicycle like any other bicycle, holds the same, drive the same, only difference, cardboard it's extremely cheap, very durable and can be fully recycled.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Can this bike change the world?

This Saturday on "THE NEXT LIST", the cardboard bike guy, Izhar Gafni.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It is a tense morning for millions of South Africans. They're waiting for word on Nelson Mandela. The beloved former president and founding father of South Africa's democracy was rushed to the hospital overnight.

CNN's Robyn Curnow is in Johannesburg where Mandela's home is. And she joins us now live.

So, Robyn, this is very concerning. Nelson Mandela has been in and out of the hospital over the past year for long inspections. What's the latest on his condition now?

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well I think the latest is that he's back again in hospital with a lung infection, this is essentially pneumonia. It's the fourth time this year.

And I think the reason this is different, the reason people might be a little bit more concerned is the language that is coming out from the government. They said in a statement that he's in a serious but stable condition. They have told us that he's breathing on his own.

But the use of that word serious is significant because this is a lot of tightly controlled information around Mandela's health. So the fact that they're pointing to such a condition and the fact that he is not, you know, undergoing routine tests, which is what they sometimes use is an indication that perhaps, you know, he isn't doing so well.

BROWN: The fact he is breathing on his own provides perhaps a glimmer of hope here, though. We've heard that Mandela's wife is at his bedside. Do you know if there's any other family there? Officials are being tight-lipped at this point. Any other information?

CURNOW: His wife is by his bedside, some close family members are also, we understand, at the hospital. Just remember, they're probably going to put him into a high care, high intensive hospital environment. They're not going to want too many people in and out. Just doesn't make sense. They don't want any more infections. What they'll probably also be doing now is giving him really high doses of more antibiotics.

So, this is why in a way this hospitalization is going to be a very private event. They're not going to want a lot of people visiting but his wife is there.

And this has been a roller coaster ride not just for the nation, for the world, for his family because he keeps on going in and out of hospital, over Christmas, he was in hospital for 18 days. Easter, he was in hospital for 10 days. So, I think a lot of people are sort of rallying themselves perhaps for another long hospital stay.

BROWN: And each time, it's for lung function.

Robyn, just to give our viewers perspective, Nelson Mandela has had lung problems ever since he was in prison for decades during South Africa's apartheid era. Is that right?

CURNOW: Absolutely. He got tuberculosis which damaged his lungs, that in a way damaged his lungs, I think scarred some of the lung tissue and he has had reoccurring infections.

But I think as he gets older, he's supposed to turn 94 in July. As he gets older his lungs have become weaker and weaker, and particularly because he's so bedridden by lying flat, obviously fluid builds up in his lungs and that in itself causes a problem. So that's why we're seeing all of these infections and the fact is that these doctors are constantly having to sort of give him really high doses of antibiotics.

And the fact that he keeps going back into hospital and going home is indicative also that he's a huge fighter.

BROWN: Absolutely, a perennial fight. And as you said, he's in serious condition. Robyn Curnow, thank you so much for that update.

CURNOW: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up on the top of the hour, and in our next hour, we're going to speak live with a student at Santa Monica College who witnessed that shooting rampage on campus. We'll also have the latest from police.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Authorities are warning towns and cities in the Northeast to look out for flash floods as Andrea creeps up the coast. The storm is a post-tropical cyclone now, but will bring plenty of rain to New England today after rolling across the south and mid-Atlantic.

The National Hurricane Center is reporting maximum sustained winds of 45 miles per hour. Rain and storm surges could cause some problems especially in the coastal areas.

BLACKWELL: A bear running from police. You got to see this.

In New Mexico, this fast-moving black bear is back on the loose leading police on a wild three-hour chase, three hours to catch this bear. He escaped and that's the name of the street he got away on, Black Bear Lane.

BROWN: What are the odds of that?

BLACKWELL: Seriously, he knew that was his spot. If I'm ever going to make it, I got to go on Black Bear Lane.

According to affiliate KRQE, officials think it was a young bear, probably weighing about 100 to 150 pounds.

Thanks for starting your morning with us.

BROWN: We've got much more ahead right here on CNN SATURDAY MORNING which starts right now.