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Critics Call Snowden Threat to U.S. Security; Transplant Rules Could Change Today; Seniors Not Saving Enough for Retirement?; Miami Heat Sizzle in Game Two of Finals

Aired June 10, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Thanks so much for being with me. I'm Carol Costello.

Checking our "Top Stories" at 30 minutes past the hour. His identity is now revealed and now he may be on the run. Edward Snowden the man behind the U.S. -- or the NSA intelligence leak, says he did it all because he says you and the rest of the American public have a right to know. But critics say Snowden is a threat to U.S. security and he should be prosecuted. Among them Congressman Peter King who calls Snowden a defector.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK (via telephone): Is not true -- and there's so much he said that is untrue. Again, this person is dangerous to the country. He had -- I think there's real questions as to why he left the CIA. The fact that he's in China right now or in Hong Kong, which is a sub-state of China and he knows where our intelligence assets are, or intelligence agents are, around the world and the fact that he has allowed our enemy to know what our sources and methods are is extremely -- extremely dangerous.

I believe he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I consider him right now to be a defector.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: King scoffed at Snowden's boast that he was entrusted with so much power that he could have spied on anyone, even the President of the United States. You're going to hear more from Snowden in his own word -- in his own words, rather, in just a minute.

The attorney for a Philadelphia crane operator says his client is being made a scapegoat. Sean Benschop remains in jail charge with six counts of involuntary manslaughter after Wednesday's building collapse. Bail has been denied and a law enforcement source says marijuana was found in the crane operator's blood.

In North Carolina police are trying to figure out what killed an 11- year-old boy and left his mom unconscious in a hotel room. This is the very same room police found an elderly couple dead in back in April. Police don't believe the cases are connected and say there is no danger to the general public.

Erin Brockovich-Ellis -- you know, that environmental activist who inspired the Julia Roberts movie -- was arrested for allegedly drinking and boating outside of Las Vegas -- seriously. Officials say they found her struggling to dock her boat and after an investigation, they say she was, quote, "significantly over the legal drinking limit".

Now as promised we have more from Edward Snowden. The former NSA employee who was hiding out in Hong Kong after revealing the agency is spying on Americans. In an interview with "The Guardian" Snowden speaks about the potential response from the U.S. government and why you should care about what the NSA is doing and why he fled to Hong Kong.

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EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: Yes. I could be, you know, rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me or any of their third party partners. They work closely with a number of other nations or you know they can pay off the triads or any -- any of their agents or assets. We -- we've got a CIA station just up the road and the consulate here in Hong Kong. I'm sure they are going to be very busy for the next week. And that's -- that's a fear I will live under for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be.

You can't come forward against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk because they are such powerful adversaries that no one can meaningfully oppose them. If they want to get you they'll get you in time.

But at the same time you have to make a determination about what it is that's important to you. And if living -- living un-freely but comfortably is something you're willing to accept and I think many of us are, it's the human nature. You can get up every day, you can go to work, you can collect your -- your large pay check for relatively little work against the public interest and go to sleep at night after watching your shows.

But if you realize that that's the world that you helped create and it's going to get worst with the next generation and the next generation who extend the capabilities of this sort of architecture of repression you realize that you might be willing to accept any risk and it doesn't matter what the outcome is so long as the public gets to make their own decisions about how that is applied.

GLENN GREENWALD, THE GUARDIAN: Why should people care about surveillance?

SNOWDEN: Because even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded. And the storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude to where it's getting to the point you don't have to have done anything wrong. You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody. Even by a wrong call and then they can use the system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made. Every friend you've ever discussed something with.

And attack you on that basis to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer.

GREENWALD: We are currently sitting in a room in Hong Kong which is where we are because you travelled here. Talk a little bit about why it is that you came here and specifically there are going to be people will speculate that what you really intend to do is to defect to the country that many see as the number one rival of the United States which is China. And that what you are really doing is essentially seeking to aid an enemy of the United States, with which you intend to seek asylum. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SNOWDEN: Sure. So there is a couple of assertions in those arguments that are -- and they are sort embedded in the questioning of the choice of Hong Kong. The first is that China is an enemy of the United States. It's not.

I mean, there are -- there are conflicts between the United States government and the Chinese PRC government. But the peoples inherently -- you know we don't care. We trade with each other freely, you know. We're not at war. We are not in armed conflict. And we're not trying to be. We are the largest trading partners out there for each other.

Additionally, Hong Kong has a strong tradition of free speech. People think oh China a great firewall -- mainland China does have significant restrictions on free speech. But the Hong Kong -- the people of Hong Kong have a long tradition of protesting in the streets, making their views known. Internet is not filtered here, no more so than any other western government. And I believe that the Hong Kong government is actually independent in relation to a lot of other leading western governments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: The conversation with Edward Snowden continues after a break. Hear what he fears now that the disclosure was made.

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COSTELLO: A public's right to know -- that's how Edward Snowden defends his leak of NSA surveillance tactics to the media. He says someone with his authority could have chosen a more harmful course of action. Here is more of his interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREENWALD: If your motive had been to harm the United States and help its enemies or if your motive have been personal and material gain, were there things that you could have done with these documents to advance those goals that you didn't end up doing?

SNOWDEN: Absolutely. I mean anybody in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had could, you know, suck out secrets, pass them on the open marked to Russia, you know. They always have an open door. As we do. I had access to, you know, the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA the entire intelligence community. And undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station, we have what their missions are and so forth.

If I had just wanted to harm the U.S., you know, that -- you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. But that's not my intention. And I -- I think for anyone making that argument, they need to think that if they were in my position and you know, you live a privileged life, you are living in Hawaii and paradise and making a ton of money, what would it take to make you leave everything behind?

The -- the greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures they'll know the length that the -- government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American society and global society.

But they -- they won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests. And for the months ahead, the years ahead, it's only going to get worse until eventually there will be a time where policies will change because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy.

Even our agreements with -- with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather than stipulation of law. And because of that, a new leader will be elected and they'll flip the switch. Say that because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some -- some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Coming up next in the NEWSROOM, who decides who lives and who dies? The rule change may save 10-year-old Sarah Murnaghan. But what does that mean for others who desperately need a lung transplant?

We'll talk after this.

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COSTELLO: The group that sets national rules for lung transplants is holding an emergency meeting today to review and possibly change its policy on child organ recipients. The existing policy puts many kids at the end of the waiting list for adult organs.

The rule comes on the heels of the story of a sick 10-year-old named Sarah Murnaghan. Sarah was born with cystic fibrosis meaning she joins 30,000 other Americans fighting for their lives, fighting to breathe. The median age for survival is the late 30s.

But Sarah's family had some reason to cheer this week. A judge stepped in with a ruling that could save her life and allow her to get an adult lung transplant. Her mother, Janet, reacts to the ruling.

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JANET MURNAGHAN, MOTHER OF SARAH MURNAGHAN: Odds are she is mum one. If not number one, she is number two, for the region, her blood type. And before this -- before this ruling, she was number 100 maybe. I mean so to talk about a difference -- we had no chance, no chance of getting lungs and the odds of Sarah dying were very high. Now we have a chance. And there is no guarantee but we have a shot now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Arthur Caplan joins me now. He's the head of the division of the medical ethics at New York University Langone Medical Center. Welcome.

ARTHUR CAPLAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: Hey. Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. That ruling was an exception but today the rules could change forever. Right?

CAPLAN: That's right. We have a system; it's been in place for many decades now for distributing organs. They are very scarce. We need more people to donate their organs. Sign up for your -- check your driver's license so we can diminish this problem. But nonetheless every day someone is going to die and someone going the live.

The rules for Sarah and lung transplant have basically said adult organs don't fit in children. So they have come up with an age, 12, under which it is hard to make that organ fit and that has basically been the principle. The parents have said look, it is arbitrary. She may be bigger, maybe she can fit an organ in there. What about using a piece of an organ? So they are challenging the rule.

COSTELLO: What do you think they will decide? Will they make a permanent decision the other way? Do you think this will be a -- a temporary decision and will go back to the old way?

CAPLAN: I think that it is going to a temporary decision. They may make room for her and maybe one other child who is also involved in a lawsuit now if they can take or -- if the organ can fit. What they really immediate to do, though, not let judges decide or congress or publicity campaign. They need to do what they always do which is to see where the medical data indicates the best chance for saving a life.

Remember when Sarah comes on, somebody else whose name we don't know goes off the list and they die. You want to try to get the best results for the scarce organs you have. If it is the case the children can do ok, then that has to really be the subject of medical discussion, transplant expertise, not lawyers, not judges. Maybe an exception coming but I think to revise the rule that's going to take a few more month.

COSTELLO: Since Sarah has cystic fibrosis, if she gets the new pair lungs, will that lengthen her life expectancy to a normal life expectancy or will she still be in danger? CAPLAN: That's a great question, Carol, because what we are hearing in the media is, you know, she's going to have her shot. She is going to get a chance. But sadly, kids with cystic fibrosis who get a lung transplant, the survival rate at 6 years, 50 percent -- one-half have died. So lung transplant still isn't really perfected; it is a very difficult operation. The lungs are fragile. It is easy to damage them. The immuno-suppression or medicine you have to use to keep the lung in there so the body doesn't attack it, that's very powerful and causes lots of side effects.

So yes, she would have her life extended but we could be looking at another transplant issue for her in five or six years.

COSTELLO: What you said at the beginning, like -- it should be based on who can best survive and Sarah probably would not be in that category.

CAPLAN: Sarah is probably in a bit of a disadvantage in terms of survival because it may be that she can't accept or fit the large adult lung and she would only be using a part of it and that may hurt her chances to do well with that. And her cystic fibrosis is very aggressive. She is very young to be, if you will, terminally ill with it. The odds of survival for her will not -- zero and not insignificant are long shot odds.

So you really want to make sure -- and I think this is a principle all Americans want to understand clearly, you have only got a few organs, and you want to try to save the most lives with the greatest probability of success. That's why it is so much a medical judgment and not something for judges in Congress or even the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You let the doctors make the prediction.

COSTELLO: So you are the ethics guy and -- you know, if it were my child I would be fighting just as hard because I would want that child to live as long as possible.

CAPLAN: Sure, absolutely.

COSTELLO: But just from an ethical standpoint, what should happen?

CAPLAN: Well, if it was my kid I would be fighting hard, too, and I would be making the appeals. That's why we have the system to try to handle everyone who is going to try to hope that they get the scarce organ.

So really two points. One, we want the system to stay intact and I don't want to see lawsuits by everybody at the bottom of the list. We have to give some leeway to doctors and surgeons to make the call about who's going to do best. And the other thing we need to do is sign our donor cards and get behind organ donation and we might even think in this country ethically let's shift to an assumption that we all want to be organ donors which most people say they do and tell people who don't want to do it to sign a card.

We'd have more organ donation if we could move from an opt-in system saying I want to do it to an opt-out system for the small number of people who say I don't want to do it, that would go a long way toward helping Sarah and others like her.

COSTELLO: Well, I know I opted in. I am an organ donor. Thank you so much Arthur Caplan. We appreciate it.

CAPLAN: Excellent -- me too.

COSTELLO: Good for you.

CAPLAN: My pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us this morning. We're back in a minute.

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COSTELLO: 55 minutes past the hour, time to check our top stories.

Ten women in California lucky to be alive after the limousine they were waiting in burst into flames. You can see the remains here of that charred vehicle. The elderly women, some of them using walkers, were able to escape without any serious injuries with the help of their caretakers. The limo's owner blames a manufacturer's defect for the fire.

A new study from bankrate.com says seniors nationwide are not saving enough money for retirement. Financial planners typically recommend you save enough money to replace at least 70 percent of your pre- retirement income or you will risk running out of money. The only states where seniors are following that rule, Nevada and Hawaii.

Extreme storms expected across much of the East today. That includes a risk of tornadoes and hail and high winds possible from Lexington to Nashville.

And a little bit of sports. The NBA's defending champs are not giving up their crown without a fight. Last night the Miami Heat used a 14 degree run to close out the third quarter and beat the San Antonio Spurs in South Beach. The best-of-seven series now is tied up at one game apiece. The NBA finals now head to San Antonio for games three, four and five.

Coming up tomorrow morning -- my interview with the legendary Nick Fleetwood and Lindsey Buckingham, the Fleetwood Mac. They're on tour. They've also got a new self-title EP out. Tuesday morning -- that's right here in the NEWSROOM. I can't wait to talk with them.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. CNN NEWSROOM continues after a break.

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