Return to Transcripts main page


Jodi`s Defense Claiming Insanity

Aired June 13, 2013 - 20:00:00   ET



JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: (INAUDIBLE) and she`s lying. She`s making it all up. She`s lied to everybody.

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: I can`t really explain why my mind did what it did.

MARTINEZ: Stabbed him to the heart (INAUDIBLE)

JODI ARIAS: You make me feel like I was...

MARTINEZ: He was killed in three different ways.

JODI ARIAS: ... the most freaking beautiful...

He called me a skank.

I didn`t feel altogether forced.

MARTINEZ: Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt, she`s a liar.

JODI ARIAS: Many occasions, he was very romantic, very loving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, the slit to the throat would kill him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... sex with Travis. That was his preference.

MARTINEZ: And the shot to the face would have killed him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Did you enjoy having sex with Travis?"

JODI ARIAS: For the most part, yes, I did. Very much.

MARTINEZ: She knew. She absolutely knew and had already planned it. She knew she was going to kill him.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. After a stunning deadlock in the Arias murder trial, bombshell tonight, an incredible U-turn by the Jodi Arias camp, a brand-new defense. Retrial is set to start July 18. New defense, Jodi Arias is mentally ill. And tonight, we learn Arias could be heading to a treatment facility instead of life behind bars or death row.

Also, as we go to air, we confirm Arias in hot water at Estrella jail for allegedly attacking another female inmate. And tonight, amidst Arias`s claims she and her lawyers were secretly bugged, were wiretapped at the courthouse, we learn the Arias sex tape that exploded in that Arizona courtroom, claims surfacing Arias secretly recorded Travis after luring him onto the phone, why? To send the sex tape to his new girlfriend, to sabotage any relationship Travis could ever have other than with Arias.

That surfacing. Also, we learn tonight Martinez says that he can absolutely prove that so-called letters from Travis were actually forged by Jodi Arias. Arias tried and tried to introduce these letters at trial to show that Travis had beaten her, that he was a pedophile, that he was an all-around bad guy.

But when they were not allowed in court, Arias`s mother tried to peddle them, sell them, to "The National Enquirer." They turned it down. Long story short, we now learn Martinez says he can absolutely prove that these letters were forged.

We are live in Arizona and taking your calls. The big bombshell out of all of that, though, is Jodi Arias set to head to a mental treatment facility instead of life behind bars or the death row.

Out to Jean Casarez, HLN legal correspondent. Jean, we now know the lawyers are proclaiming high and low that Jodi Arias is a, quote, "mentally ill" woman. How?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are accepting the diagnosis of the prosecution`s expert with borderline personality disorder. They are going on to say that since she is mentally ill, it would be unconstitutional to sentence her to death. And number two, Nancy, they may say she`s not even competent to be sentenced.

GRACE: OK. That`s a whole `nother can of worms, mental incompetency to stand trial.

Unleash the lawyers. George Parnham with us, high-profile lawyer out of Houston, former lawyer for Andrea Yates, who claimed insanity, Mickey Sherman, veteran trial lawyer. And also with us, Terry -- Terence Lenamon. As you recall, he`s the death penalty expert that argued against the death penalty in the tot mom, Casey Anthony, murder trial.

All right, George Parnham, a borderline personality disorder does not equal a mental illness or insanity under the law, does it?

GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): That`s correct, Nancy. And thanks for having me. Borderline personality disorder is something that is more for mitigation. It is not -- it does not equate as a severe mental illness, and that must be a factor in any type of insanity defense that is offered to a jury.

GRACE: So Mickey Sherman, to you, very quickly. Why -- in the Yates case that George Parnham represented Andrea Yates, that was insanity. So what`s the whole point of the lawyers trying to say she`s mentally ill?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, why not? All they`re trying to do right now is save her life. They`re not trying to find her not guilty. So they`ve got something to work with. They`ve got the prosecutor opening the door with borderline personality disorder. So they`re parlaying that, together with the fact that, clearly, she`s nuts, but not insane.

GRACE: OK, Lenamon?

TERENCE LENAMON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, borderline personality disorder is a DSM-4 diagnosis. And what`s important here is that you can go the jury...

GRACE: What does that mean?

LENAMON: ... with the right expert and say...

GRACE: Wait. What -- don`t throw terms like that around to the viewers when you know we all don`t know what you`re talking about. That`s a DSM-4 class -- come on. Please. Speaky englez (ph)!

LENAMON: The mental health people said that that`s a legitimate diagnosis to consider when you`re talking about mental illness. And basically, what they`re doing is they`re taking this mental illness, what was codified by the state attorney`s office, and saying, Listen, you know, this could have a genetic component, meaning this is not your fault, Ms. Arias. This is not your fault.

And when the jury hears that, all you need is one juror to go, Listen, she was born with a disorder that allows us to find life, as opposed to death. And I think it`s a clever move, finally, by the defense team in moving forward on this.

GRACE: You know what, Lenamon? I appreciate that you and Sherman and Parnham think that it`s clever. I, however, am more interested in the truth.

Back out to you. Jean Casarez, so now the lawyers are claiming she`s mentally ill. Matt Zarrell, all of this is in the middle of -- we find out that Arias is claiming that she and her lawyers were wiretapped, were bugged?

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy. This all stems from an in-chambers conversation that was just released. And we`re finding out now more details, including that Nurmi complained to the judge about media reports about the phone sex tape that was not played in open court yet. And Nurmi alleged that someone was probably leaving a recording device hidden inside the closed courtroom to listen to the proceedings outside the presence of the media.

GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, we were all in the courtroom day in, day out. Now the defense -- well, Jodi Arias is claiming that somebody secretly bugged the courtroom so the sex tape could be leaked?

CASAREZ: Well, it was evidence, so it was public evidence. And so why do you have to have a secondary recorder? It was broadcast to the country.

GRACE: You know, you`re so right. And that on the heels of us also finding out tonight another bombshell regarding Jodi Arias. Apparently, her brother is broadcasting, is stating that the real reason that Jodi Arias created this sex tape without Travis finding out is to sabotage, to torpedo, a relationship with his new girlfriend.

What do we know about that, Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: That`s exactly right. Jodi`s brother is speaking out, and he has been very, very public. He`s on Facebook. He`s all over the Internet. And he`s saying that the reason Jodi made this tape was she was planning on showing it to any future girlfriends that Travis had.

This is shocking to me. It truly is. It shows just the depths of her planning and the evil thoughts that she had, and that if she couldn`t have him, no one else would. And that`s what he says. He says this is exactly what she was going to do. She wanted other people to know. And so, basically, this is that she trapped him into it, is what I think.

GRACE: So bottom line, so much still churning in the Arias trial. It`s set to go to retrial July 18, Martinez indicating that he`s already got his witness list ready and he`s ready to go forward. This as the defense claims she`s mentally ill.

We are taking your calls. Tonight, (INAUDIBLE) report Jodi Arias is headed to a cushy psych ward instead of death row. Legal correspondents, legal court watchers, reeling with the news.

To Sarah in New Mexico. Hi, Sarah. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi there. It`s not really a question. It`s more of a statement. I just don`t see how they can find her -- her mental illness anywhere insane, when she was already competent enough to stand trial once. You know, it could be diminished responsibility, but all that would do is lessen the offense. I really just don`t see how it`s possible.

GRACE: Jodi Arias`s lawyers calling her a, quote, "mentally ill" woman who was no prior criminal history. We now learn also tonight that she is allegedly in hot water in the Estrella jail for attacking another female inmate. This amidst claims she`s headed for a cushy psych ward instead of death row or life behind bars.

Out to the lines. Kim in Georgia. Hi, Kim. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a comment. I think that this lady is sick. I think she is sick and then being very mean and selfish. And I think that she is extremely smart because she knew how to plan out everything that she done to carry out that murder. And she knew that she didn`t want him to have anybody else. And now that she knows that she got caught, found guilty, she`s going to do everything she can to play off being crazy.

And I hope that our jurors are going to be smart enough to see through her and put her on death row because that`s where she belongs.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Jodi Arias may be smarter than all of us. Listen to what Arias said at the get-go.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We touched on the mental illness. Most people think what you did to Travis Alexander is insane. Juan Martinez said you killed him three times. Why didn`t they do an insanity plea?

JODI ARIAS: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t you think the jury would have really believed that, I mean, after looking at all of the evidence? You even said you don`t know. You`ve kind of dabbled (ph). You feel you have several things going on with your psyche.

JODI ARIAS: Yes. I just -- I don`t know that -- I don`t know why that decision was made. I really don`t.


GRACE: Arias saying, Why didn`t we plead insanity to start with? More of that interview,



JODI ARIAS: Not that I remember.

I don`t remember that part.

I don`t remember.

I don`t remember.

I don`t know.

I don`t know.

I don`t know.

I don`t remember.

MARTINEZ: Your memory issues, talking about that, right?

JODI ARIAS: I don`t know.

I don`t know.

I don`t know.

It could be because I don`t remember.

Not that I remember -- I remember -- I remember.

I don`t know.

MARTINEZ: We`re talking about your memory problems, right?

JODI ARIAS: I don`t know that I would really call it a problem.

MARTINEZ: Can`t you tell us anything.

JODI ARIAS: I don`t remember.

I don`t know.

I don`t remember.

I don`t remember.

I don`t know.

I don`t know.

MARTINEZ: You don`t know. Right?

JODI ARIAS: I don`t know.

I don`t remember that far back.

MARTINEZ: Do you have a problem with your memory?

JODI ARIAS: I don`t know.


GRACE: Welcome back. Bombshell reports tonight that Jodi Arias`s lawyers set to send her to a cushy psych ward instead of death row or even life behind bars. This amidst claims that Martinez says he can prove those letters from Travis were really forged by Jodi Arias, letters incriminating Travis Alexander out to be an abuser, a pedophile and more.

And remember, when the judge disallowed these letters in court, the mom, Jodi Arias`s mom, tried to sell them to "The Enquirer," who wisely has to date not published them.

Straight out to Matt Zarrell, on the story. We are now learning that Jodi Arias could be headed to a cushy psych ward. Where would she go? She`d be out of Estrella jail, right?

ZARRELL: Yes, she would. She would -- we believe she would go to state hospital and the prison complex in Phoenix. The special unit is called the Flamenco (ph) Health Center for Women. Now, this is if she undergoes a psych evaluation to determine whether she`s competent to stand trial for the penalty phase.

GRACE: There you see Flamenco Mental Health Center. It`s very small, a 20-bed facility, very cushy, focused on education programs. Man, Arias would be running this place in about a month!

We are also learning that Arias behind bars in hot water at Estrella for attacking another inmate. What happened, Matt?

ZARRELL: Yes, apparently -- this is in disciplinary reports that have been released. She got in a fight with a cellmate, and coincidentally enough, Arias claimed self-defense. Sound familiar?

The officers saw Arias with her back against the wall and kicking her cellmate. Arias said she had to defend herself. The cellmate actually pled guilty to assaulting Arias. But again, we have a self-defense claim.

GRACE: Another self-defense claim, arias allegedly attacking another female inmate.

This mental illness claim goes back a long way, as far back as her mother and dad. Take a listen to what they told police about it.


SANDY ARIAS, JODI`S MOTHER: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all of the time. I had quite a few of her friends call me and tell me that I need to get her some help. I had one call me in the middle of the night and tell me that she needed help. Jodi wouldn`t call me. We don`t have a good relationship, me and Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your husband kind of told me about the relationship.

SANDY ARIAS: And she would call me in the morning all happy, and call me an hour or two later in tears, crying and sobbing about something she didn`t want to talk about. That happened constantly. And her friends saw it, too. I had one friend call me in the middle of the night, and he even called a hotline for bipolar people, said Jodi is bipolar and she needs help. And that`s why we talked her into coming back up here, so she could be around family.

Do they do a psychiatric evaluation when they do things like this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure they will. I`m sure they will. It doesn`t come up in every case, but in her situation, it`s something that will probably happen.

SANDY ARIAS: Because I know that`s one of the things, when she was in Arizona, I called -- I called -- she was a member of the Mormon church, and I called the bishop here and wanted to know if there was any way he could find out where she was going to the church because I wanted to talk to him and see if he could talk to Jodi and find out what`s going on because, like I said, she would just totally flip out on me. And I had one of her friends call me in the middle of the night, call us one night and say, You need to get Jodi some help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) she would flip out on you (INAUDIBLE)

SANDY ARIAS: Just, like, call me one minute happy, and the next minute in tears. And I mean, she would just -- like she was a totally different person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feel like you wanted to help her but she wouldn`t let you?


GRACE: That`s Jodi Arias`s mom, the dad also reflecting the same sentiment.

Tonight, apparently, Jodi Arias could be set to go to a cushy mental health facility, claiming mental illness, a 20-bed residential situation for women, as opposed to Estrella jail or the death row. This after she slaughters Travis Alexander, stabbing him 29 times, shooting him, leaving him for dead in the shower? Now she claims she`s mentally ill?

You know what? Is Jodi Arias really mentally ill? Remember, she was the winner of "American Idol" behind bars. You decide. You take a look.


JODI ARIAS: (SINGING) O, holy night, the stars are brightly shining. It is the night of our dear savior`s birth. Long lay the world...




JODI ARIAS: She was standing over Travis, near him, and he was -- the guy with the gun was standing near me. He pulled the trigger and nothing happened.

Couldn`t keep my stories straight.

He finally just pulled the trigger.

MARTINEZ: They`re not true.

JODI ARIAS: Hyperventilating and heart was racing.

All the same things, just different versions.

Couldn`t keep my lies straight.

I started to pull on him and I said, Come on, come on, come on, let`s go, let`s go.

MARTINEZ: Did you lie to the detective, yes or no?


MARTINEZ: To "48 Hours."


MARTINEZ: The people in Utah?

JODI ARIAS: Yes. Everyone.


GRACE: Out to Alexis Tereszcuk. Now claims Martinez says he can absolutely prove those letters from Travis Alexander were forged by Jodi Arias, letters showing that he was admitting to all sorts of criminal behavior.

TERESZCUK: He says absolutely that he could have done that. He was basically daring the defense to try to bring them into evidence. He said he would bring in a handwriting expert and they would prove that the letters were forged. They were not written by Travis Alexander.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell?

ZARRELL: Nancy, Martinez nearly challenged the defense to say it. Martinez also alleged that the defense wants it both ways, that they want the letters in, but they don`t want anybody making a comment about the validity of the letters. So you can`t have it both ways, is what Martinez argued.

GRACE: He claims he can absolutely show -- he can prove these letters were forged by Arias. They were even peddled to "The National Enquirer," and here is what Mike Walker from "The National Enquirer" has to say.


MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER": Jodi Arias has tried to ensnare us, to drag us, "The National Enquirer," into her twisted scheme. What she has done is she has given us letters. And these letters are meant to portray or to trash Alexander`s reputation as a violent, sex-crazed deviant who abused her so horrifically, she was forced to kill him.

Her mother came to us and said that Jodi wanted us to publicize these letters that were allegedly written by Travis Alexander in his own hand. And she had electronic copies of these letters. Her mom approached us. She was quite emotional. She was in tears. And her mom, I don`t think, knows what`s going on. She just said, Jodi wanted me to get these letters out to the public. I`m only doing this because she asked me to.




JODI ARIAS: Well, I was thanked before on occasion. It just seemed like the frequency and the intensity of it increased (INAUDIBLE)

MARTINEZ: You are familiar with the defendant`s family of origin issues in this case, right?

JODI ARIAS: They were -- I think that`s the first year my dad started using a belt.

SANDY ARIAS: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time.

JODI ARIAS: My mom began to carry a wooden spoon in her purse.

JOSE MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: There were many issues involving her father, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir, there were issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strange person.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: His body was dragged to the shower and he was shot in the head along the way.

ARIAS: As far as making comparisons of physical injuries, him versus mine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From ear to ear. His face was dark purple, almost black. The rest of his body was a very pale white.


NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Welcome back, everyone. For those of you just joining us, we learn Jodi Arias may be set to head off to a cushy psych ward, a 20-bed residential type facility for women with a focus on education, as opposed to life behind bars or death row.

This amongst claims that the letters Jodi Arias wanted admitted into evidence were forged. And Martinez says he can prove it. Letters claiming to be written by Travis Alexander, her murder victim, making him out to be an abuser, a criminal and a pedophile.

Those letters, says Martinez, absolutely forgeries. Not only do they try to bring them into evidence at trial and dupe the jury, they tried to sell them to the "National Enquirer."

We learned Jodi Arias in hot water at Estrella Jail for allegedly attacking another female inmate. Once again, Arias claims self-defense.

All this amidst a stunning revelation from the jury foreperson.

Out to Jean Casarez joining us in the field, HLN legal correspondent.

Jean, what have we heard from the jury foreman?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we`ve heard big news from him. We have heard that he actually voted for life for Jodi Arias. He did not want the death penalty. He said he found three mitigating factors. Number one, her age. And Jennifer Wilmont brought that into her closing argument. Number two, no criminal history. And number three, he felt that she was psychologically abused by Travis Alexander.

GRACE: Jean, what do we know about which juror wanted to know about Jodi Arias` boob job? It was a question that they wanted asked to Arias, but the judge refused to allow it. I assume it was one of the male jurors.

CASAREZ: We can assume. Assume nothing, right? But we do know it was one of 29 questions that were focused on sex, which seemed to be the focal point of the entire trial.


GRACE: No, I had a count of 39.

CASAREZ: We don`t know but it was a predominantly male jury. Thirty-nine.

GRACE: I have a count of --

CASAREZ: Predominantly male jury.

GRACE: The sex question. Yes. So --

CASAREZ: You`re right.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Jean, that the foreman also said when he first walked into the courtroom that he took one look at Jodi Arias -- one look at her -- and said, wow, I don`t believe such a petite young woman could ever do something like this. I just couldn`t wrap my head around it.

I mean, he was already -- had a preconceived notion that she couldn`t do it. Now we hear he voted for life.

CASAREZ: That`s a very good point.

GRACE: Now we know that male jurors were asking questions about her boob job. I don`t know. I smell a rat.

Out to the lines. Nancy in California. Hi, Nancy. What`s your question?

NANCY, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. Well, you brought it up about you were just talking about her being in a fight, I believe it was yesterday. But they said she was shackled at the same time when this was going on. And so I don`t know, you know when other prisoners get in a fight, they throw them in solitary for like a month. And doesn`t that prove that she`s a violent person, not crazy?

GRACE: You know, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, RadarOnline.

Alexis, what do we know?

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: What we know is that behind bars -- Jodi has been in jail since 2008. She has had 14 infractions. She has an incredibly long rap sheet behind bars. Nothing to do with Travis being murdered. She actually is in trouble repeatedly behind bars, and she did get in this fight with her roommate.

She also is doing very sneaky things that -- there were pens that she hides. And while that doesn`t seem like maybe to you -- well, Nancy, maybe you. But to me, oh, she has pens, she wants to write letters. No. They are saying that these could perhaps be turned into weapons.

So this is -- and she`s also has unauthorized photographs. Jodi is -- cannot even follow the rules behind bars.

GRACE: Out to Shaun Alexander, former roommate, friend of Travis Alexander, knew Arias.

Shaun, thank you for being with us. What do you make of reports she`s headed to a cushy mental health facility, a 20-bed residential facility with a focus on education?


SHAUN ALEXANDER, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Well, it`s obviously frustrating and it`s not surprising, to be honest. She`s that type of girl. She`s very manipulative. She`ll change like a chameleon. She`ll do whatever she`s got to do to save her life at this point. And so now that the play is, OK, I`m going to say that I`m mentally unstable, right, so go ahead and put me into a mental hospital where it`s easy, it`s -- you know, a cake walk compared to what she knows she is in for if she doesn`t go this route.

And so now she`s going to start acting all looney and all crazy and do all these whatever off the scene stuff to make it seem like yes, she`s crazy, she needs to be there. So, you know, why they didn`t go with the crazy plea from the beginning is beyond me, because the idea of the self-defense, whatever it was that they tried to do in the very first place was never going to work. And we all knew that. But she`s not crazy. She is manipulative, she`s lying --

GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact, Shaun, you heard Arias on speakerphone the night that Travis` body was found. Did she seem crazy to you?


ALEXANDER: Well, the sad part about it is that looking back it -- I mean, the ability of hers to lie is insane. The believability of her lies is just crazy. It crazy because when she called, she sounded just like any distraught, freaked out friend that we were calling the whole night. We were calling everybody to try and let them know what was going on and that kind of thing.

And she was just -- like everybody else. Was freaking out. Was screaming and crying and distressed and couldn`t believe it. And after that phone call, I honestly believed she had nothing to do with it. It wasn`t until months later that I found out she even had anything to do with this whole thing. I assumed at that point it was somebody totally different that had done what they had done to Travis.

And I had taken her off my radar list completely after listening to that call. So I can 100 percent see why people believe the lies that she has because she is good at it. That`s what she is good at doing. She is good at lying. She is good at manipulating. She is good at changing everything about herself to be whatever person she needs to be to win over whatever audience she is taking over.

GRACE: With me, Shaun Alexander, former friend and roommate of Travis`.

Aaron Brehove, body language expert, author of "Knack Body Language."

Aaron, I`m very anxious to hear your observations.

AARON BREHOVE, VOICE ANALYSIS AND BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, Nancy, we -- a lot of times, we`re looking at her, I hear everybody say she`s crazy. And I think that`s more of a -- it`s more of a casual term. But why do we say that? Why is everyone saying she is crazy, she`s a little bit out there?

Well, she -- take off the table the fact that she murdered her boyfriend in this gruesome manner and look at the lack of emotion she has, the lack of remorse and conscience. And she is going through given statements, she`s crying. These are all feigned emotions. And we can all see this, we can all feel it, how feigned they are.

So we ask a question, OK, does she have real emotions. And the one emotion we do see from her during these interviews before she was convicted of this is we see that she has duping delight. We see duping delight continuously coming out.

GRACE: What is that?

BREHOVE: Duping delight is when you can see happiness. When happiness slips out, basically. And they don`t -- they want to keep it in, but it slips out. You see the corners of the mouth come backing up, you see the corners of the eyes squint up a little bit, so trying to suppress it but it pops out. It`s duping delight.

And we see that emotion come out. So we know she does have emotions. While we feel it, she`s a little crazy, she`s very much not crazy in the defensible term. She is crazy as far as she`s not like any of us. She has no remorse for this gruesome act.

GRACE: Well, the perfect example, Aaron Brehove, you`re absolutely right, is when she smiled in her mug shot.



ARIAS: If Travis were here today, he would tell you that it wasn`t me. I witnessed Travis being attacked by two other individuals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you at Travis` house?

ARIAS: Absolutely not. I was nowhere near Mesa. White Americans. They were not mafia or anything. I was not attracted at Travis` house. I was not. I think I got knocked out, but I don`t think it was that long. Such a blur. Are you sure it`s me? I mean, because I was not there. I`m not proud that I just left my friend there to be slaughtered at the hands of two other people. I was nowhere near Phoenix. I wasn`t even close to him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Latent Print 169a was individualized as the left palm of Jodi Ann Arias.

ARIAS: Explanation for that will come out soon.


GRACE: Now a stunning revelation from the jury foreperson. He was the one that claimed when he walked into the courtroom and took one look at Jodi Arias, he found it very difficult to believe that a petite young woman like her could ever do such a heinous deed.

To Carolyn Robbins-Manley, jury consultant, joining me out of the Miami jurisdiction.

Carolyn, I`d like to hear your thoughts.

CAROLYN ROBBINS-MANLEY, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, let`s put it this way. It`s interesting that we`re talking about the foreperson, and he`s making these comments. And we`re back to the stereotype that unless you look like Charles Manson with wide eyes, how could you be a killer. So the interview answer he gave when he said that kind of gave us a little insight. Now he obviously got over that, because he did agree to find her guilty of first- degree murder. But the issue we`re talking about now is the penalty phase.

The four jurors who said that they could not find her -- did not want to award the death sentence, those would be the ones that I would be looking at, certainly if I were the prosecution, knowing that you have to go through this again. You have to embrace your weakness to figure out how to win.

And in this case, we`re hearing -- we might be frustrated that it`s a weakness. But we`re hearing the abuse excuse as something that seems to be working for the defense. This whole issue of insanity versus crazy and the legalities. Obviously, insanity is in the legal sense, do you know right from wrong.

GRACE: Exactly.

ROBBINS-MANLEY: But we`re hearing from these jurors -- yes, we`re hearing from these jurors in their interview, though, that they`re willing to, I don`t know, lessen that burden and say, hey, if we think you`re crazy, if we think you were abused, somehow they`re, you know, able to use that as an excuse to not hand down the death sentence.

GRACE: To Dr. Ramani Durvasula, clinical psychologist and author.

Dr. Durvasula, I am intrigued and concerned that Jodi Arias could be headed to a cushy mental health facility, a 20-bed all-female facility, residential type facility with a focus on education. How would that be different from Estrella Jail or Florence?

RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I mean, I think that in such a facility she is going to get -- she`s going to get therapy and they`re going to view her as having outcomes, perhaps even after -- the idea that they`re preparing her for another life, in theory. Honestly, though, I do not think a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder is going to end her up in that kind of facility. I really don`t. I think it`s an accurate diagnosis, I think it`s spot-on. But I don`t think that that`s -- it`s not going to get her.


GRACE: Ramani.

DURVASULA: This is a hail Mary pass.

GRACE: Fifty percent of Americans have a borderline personality disorder. That could be anything from narcissism, it could be a gamut of issues that do not rise to mental illness.

DURVASULA: I -- here I`m going to disagree. Because actually, probably less than 5 percent of Americans have this diagnosis. She has a messy diagnosis because she has so much sociopathy, and she has so much narcissism. She is a mixed picture. And the likelihood of treatment working with her, not so good.

GRACE: What is narcissism? Is it a borderline personality disorder?

DURVASULA: No, it`s a trait. It`s the sense of entitlement, the sense of envy, the chronic lying. The believing that you can get away with stuff that no one else can get away with.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People would describe her as being irritable and upset.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes she`s calm, real sweet. Ten minutes later she`s in a rage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had one friend call me in the middle of the night, calling the hotline for bipolar people, saying Jodi is bipolar and she needs help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After she performs or gives him oral sex does he leave?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He does. He gets in his car and he leaves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve somehow managed to become his whipping girl and we`re both addicted to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only way she gets this information is through the defendant, not the journal but through the defendant. There`s a lack of trustworthiness here. She`s a liar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We end up having makeup sex or in this case phone sex.

ARIAS: I really, really want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not the aggressor, she is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just as naughty as he is. More, in fact.


GRACE: Is Arias headed to a cushy psych ward as opposed to staying in Estrella? Or going to death row?

We are taking your calls. But unleash the lawyers. Terry Lenamon, Mickey Sherman, George Parnham.

We now learned, Mickey Sherman, through her own brother that that sex tape that exploded in the courtroom, that Travis Alexander knew nothing about it, she was actually luring him into sex talk to send the tape to his new girlfriend.

That doesn`t sound crazy to me. Maybe crazy like a fox, Mickey Sherman.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, it just shows that she`s a little bit evil as we all know. This is not exactly shocking news that she did something inappropriate. The bottom line is the jury foreman has testified -- has been interviewed and talked about, is it enough to send her to the death row? That`s all we`re talking about. We`re not talking about whether or not she`s evil, manipulative --

GRACE: Well, I am actually talking about something else, Terry Lenamon. I`m talking her engineering the sex tape that became defense exhibit number one in the courtroom to show how awful Travis Alexander was when she lured him into it to sabotage his new girlfriend.

TERRY LENAMON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that tape can actually go both ways, Nancy. I think that if you look at that tape and go, is this the kind of woman who`s so desperate to please, to hold on to this relationship, that she would do anything? That goes to the borderline personality issue. And as I said --

GRACE: You are a wily one, Lenamon.

LENAMON: And not only genetic --

GRACE: Very wily.

LENAMON: -- but the abuse is one of the reasons borderline personality comes about. As in childhood reactions --

GRACE: OK. Somebody give me an aspirin because Lenamon has just turned this whole thing around on me.

George Parnham, help me out here. I don`t know why I`m asking you for help. You defended Andrea Yates who killed all her children. But to me, the sex tape, she`s going to try to send it to the new girlfriend, shows she`s anything but mentally ill. She knew exactly what she was doing, she`s just evil.

GEORGE PARNHAM, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ANDREA YATES, FOUND LEGALLY INSANE: Well, you know, obviously we have a number of very bizarre actions on her part. To include the events of the death of the victim. Viciousness and the -- just the sheer numbers of stab wounds speaks volumes about what was going on in her mind at the time that this was taking place.


GRACE: We remember American hero Marine Lance Corporal Joseph Rodewald, 21, Albany, Oregon. Purple Heart, U.N. Non-Article 5 medal, "Operation Enduring Freedom" medal. Parents John and Jackie, stepmother Barbara, brothers Robert, Brian, Josiah, John and Joshua. Serving the Army and Navy. Sister Irene.

Joseph Rodewald, American hero.

And now straight back to a stunning revelation. Jodi Arias headed to a cushy mental health facility as opposed to life behind bars or death row?

Out to Melissa, Wisconsin. Hi, Melissa, what`s your question?

MELISSA, CALLER FROM WISCONSIN: Hi, Nancy. I just have a statement. Actually, being that I work in a state mental health facility, I completely agree with everybody`s diagnosis that she suffers from a borderline personality disorder. And from all that I researched with the case, the defense had tried to make a motion to the Supreme Court that Jodi was mentally ill and should go to a mental health facility due to the state`s witness claim that she suffers a borderline personality disorder.

The thing is, people like Jodi, they know right from wrong. She knows exactly what --

GRACE: You know what, Melissa.

MELISSA: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: You`re absolutely right. Knowing right from wrong at the time of the incident is the legal test, the McNaughton test for insanity in this country.

As we go to break, happy birthday to Jan. She`s beautiful. Put herself through school. Got a master`s degree while raising two boys, now grown, with wonderful jobs and educations. Spent a lifetime in education touching the lives of more people than she can ever know. Here we are at Times Square with my brother Mack.

Happy birthday, Jan.

Wesley Glen, Methodist home for the handicapped, raising donations for the Father`s Day campaign. They help the mentally ill. Please help Wesley Glen. Go do

Dr. Drew`s up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, everyone, good night, friend.