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Fire Destroyed 483 Structures; Convicted Murderer Now Free; Snowden Answering Public's Questions; Alleged WWII Nazi in Minnesota; Alleged Mob Boss Goes on Trial; Ring Around Russia.

Aired June 17, 2013 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: How that fire started, whether it might have been arson, where does that investigation stand right now?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, well, we do know that an arson investigator is here with many others. Arson is one of many different possibilities that these investigators will look into. Sheriff Terry Maketa, here with the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, he explains it best. Listen to what he had to say in the latest news conference?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY MAKETA, SHERIFF, EL PASO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: We have called in some extra experts and support from ATF and the state. We've assembled basically a task force to really dive in and use the latest technology to try to determine and pinpoint a point of origin, as well as collect any evidence that may be available.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWELL: Investigators at this point are still trying to determine the identities of the two people who died in this fire. We are expecting another news conference in the next hour and a half, and we will pass any information along as we get it.

BERMAN: We stand by for those updates. George Howell, as you said, the great news, looking behind you right now, no smoke this morning. Truly, a welcomed vision.

Thanks, George.

Coming up, our justice panel. We're looking at the case of the youngest person ever on death row. She was just 16 years old. Why she gained freedom just a short while ago. And you'll never guess who now supports her freedom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: She was the youngest person on death row when she was just 16 years old. Now, 27 years later, Paula Cooper is 43, and she just left prison today. She says she's a different person. As a teen, she says she was abused. She broke into homes, stealing anything she could find. And in 1985, she and three others murdered a 78-year-old woman, a Bible schoolteacher, in what Cooper calls a robbery gone bad. The woman was stabbed 33 times. But today, even the victim's grandson supports her release.

Let's bring back our legal panel, Paul Callan and Joey right now, both attorneys joining us here from New York.

First, Joey, I want to ask you about the crime itself. Stabbed 33 times. This woman, Paula Cooper, was the only one to get the death penal who was in that house. There were four people involved. Is there a sense the actual conviction in the sentence was unfair to begin with?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, you know what, John? There was. In terms of the crime, no question about the brutality. It was horrible. The other four teens, you know, she was the one who actually did the stabbing. She confessed to it. I think there was a general sense and it lent to itself on a further discussion whether 16 is too young. You're not an adult at that time. Obviously, your mind-set is different. Of course, the Supreme Court weighed in on this, saying, you know what, 16 is appropriate. Then, later on, John, briefly, in 2005, on the Roper versus Simmons, the Supreme Court said uh-huh. If you're 18, you can be executed any younger, you can't by.

But it's a very interesting story. The clergy weighed in on this, John, in terms of whether it was appropriate to do this to a child. Whether or not -- what was it -- Pope John Paul II --

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: The priest came in. The clergy presented two million signatures saying you can't do this, it's a child. So I think ultimately that had significant effect here.

BERMAN: There were a lot of people behind her defense when she was in prison, as you said. Pope John Paul II just one of them. While she was in prison, a lot of people said she exhibited good behavior. She earned a college degree.

Paul, is this an argument perhaps for the whole idea of rehabilitation?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It certainly is. We all like to believe in rehabilitation, that anybody has the possibility of turning their life around. But on the other hand, I suppose there are crimes that are so horrific. This crime just terrified Indiana at the time. This 78-year-old woman was stabbed over 30 times. They stabbed her so hard that the floorboards under her body had evidence of the knife having gone right through. It was a brutal, brutal crime. That's why she got the death penalty in the first place.

Anybody who thinks you'll be in prison for the rest of your life, there's no way you'll ever get out, this is an example, you know something, there is a chance for anyone to get out of prison depending upon whether they're rehabilitated.

BERMAN: If you can avoid the death penalty or sentence, it does show perhaps there is a chance you can get out of prison. Joey, the reason she's getting out, does it have to do with the rehabilitation or was it the fact that she was 16 when the crime happened? Which had greater effect?

JACKSON: I think it really has to do with both. As a 16 year old, obviously, you're decision, your decision pattern, what you do, how you act, it's not developed yet. And I think the courts have weighed in on it and said it's just not appropriate to hold someone that young accountable for death. I think that along with the community and the broader discuss of whether or not you should sentence someone to death at 16 has really led to this argument, the issue that a 16-year-old can indeed be rehabilitated. That's a major principle of the justice system, of course, along with punishment and deterrence.

CALLAN: I think our attitudes have changed about this, too. I agree with Joey. I think 25, 30 years ago, it was a different world. We're much more open to the idea that kids 16 and under maybe should be treated differently.

BERMAN: As of today, she's out and has a number of years to prove to society she deserves to be out and contribute.

Joey Jackson, Paul Callan, thanks so much.

Stay with CNN. During the 1:00 hour of NEWSROOM, Suzanne Malveaux will talk to Bill Kelkie (ph), the grandson of the elderly woman that Paula Cooper murdered. That should be an interesting interview.

War crimes question in Minnesota, as one longtime resident is being accused of being part of a Ukrainian killing force with ties to Nazi Germany. How do you prove crimes like those nearly 70 years -- 70 years later.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: More now about Edward Snowden, the man who started a political furor by leaking information about secret U.S. surveillance programs to "The Guardian" newspaper. He's being interviewed live online at "The Guardian" right now, and we're monitoring what he's saying.

Barbara Starr joins us now from the Pentagon.

Barbara, any new bombshells?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's fascinating, John. Edward Snowden is online this very minute, answering a wide range of questions from people, but also trying to dodge the U.S. government, worried that he's going to be tracked through cyberspace and they may find his location. He is not holding back. I just want to go through some of the questions.

You see the website there. He's getting a full range of questions. One asks, quote, "Why did you go to Hong Kong and then tell them about U.S. hacking on their research facilities and universities? Why is he in Hong Kong?" Well, he says, and he answers, "First, the U.S. government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime."

Not quite answering the question, saying what he wants to say, and then going on to say, as we look at this further, he says, "I did the reveal any U.S. operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked into civilian infrastructure, such as universities, hospitals and private businesses, because it is dangerous. These nakedly aggressively criminal acts are wrong, no matter what the target." That is Mr. Snowden talking.

It's really interesting. He's very much still, of course, saying he is in the right here. And he goes on, and in perhaps one of his most blunt statements, he says, "The U.S. government's not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming and it cannot be stopped."

The words of Edward Snowden online at this hour, John, being very blunt, but also behind the scenes, cyber-dodging, if you will, a word we just made up here, cyber-dodging the NSA and U.S. government, which certainly is trying to use cyberspace to track down where he is broadcasting from at this very minute -- John?

BERMAN: Barbara, fascinating you would bring up the possibility of the U.S. trying to murder him. Fascinating to me he seems to grant himself the power to determine what a legitimate military target is. Most fascinating of all, as you said, he keeps talking and talking while the intelligence services clearly on the hunt for him right now.

STARR: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Barbara Starr, thanks so much. Keep on listening. We want more tidbits as they come out.

We're going to move on to a shocking story out of Minneapolis, where the longtime resident is being accused of being part of a Nazi-led militia unit, that was responsible for numerous deaths in Poland during World War II.

Our Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Is he or isn't he? The allegation that 94-year-old Michael Karkoc hid his Nazi past for nearly 70 years has shocked this suburb.

GORDON GNASDONSKY, NEIGHBOR: The Nazi thing was big. I would feel differently about him.

MARQUEZ: The allegations begin with his own memoir published in the Ukraine in 1995. Karkoc admits he helped found the Ukrainian Self- Defense Legion, an offshoot of Hitler's brutal S.S. division.

His son insists his father is innocent.

ANDRIJ KARKOC, SON OF MICHAEL KARKOC: The Associated Press intentionally and maliciously defamed our father, Michael Karkoc.

MARQUEZ: The Associated Press alleges that Mr. Karkoc lied about his military service when he entered the U.S. in 1949, was in charge of the Nazi-directed division when it nearly wiped out the population of a Polish town, and even may have taken part in the ruthless suppression of Warsaw towards the end of the war. Even the Associated Press admits there is no evidence that Mr. Karkoc was directly involved in any of it.

KARKOC: To quote the A.P., "Records do not show that Karkoc had a direct hand in war crimes," end quote. My father was never a Nazi.

MARQUEZ: Still, the A.P. says it sticks by its reporting. And the U.S. Department of Justice will only say it looks into all credible allegations of Nazi war crimes. If this is found to be credible, finding Mr. Karkoc in court would be a long process.

(on camera): A very long process. If these charges move forward, Mr. Karkoc would have to be denaturalized, deported, and then tried in either Germany or Poland.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Our thanks to Miguel for that report.

Let me bring back in CNN analyst, Paul Callan.

Paul, we are clearly at the outer limits when something like this would be even possible. So much time has passed. How would you go about proving something like this so many years later?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Very difficult. It's not without precedent. I was looking at some of the older suspects in these cases. Germany extradited someone who was 86 years old. Germany and Poland have very long, you know, statutes of limitations and they could bring these charges. But the problem, of course, you have is in proving it. In a lot of the cases where older war criminals have been convicted, they were tried in absentia, and convicted previously. There were live witnesses around, and now they're just being sentenced when they're found. Here, you'd be putting together a case, and I would say an almost impossible situation. What are the chances that they could do that? It's very, very tough.

BERMAN: He's 94. When we say, they could make a case, who are we talking about? Would this happen here or would this go back and happen somewhere in Europe?

CALLAN: It would be a two-part thing. Europe and probably Poland or Germany would seek to extradite him, and then there would be sort of a mini procedure here in the United States where, you know, extradition would be fought on the grounds that there's no good-faith basis to send him overseas. Then there will be an actual trial in Europe if he was extradited.

BERMAN: 94-year-old. You say it would end up being a trial in Europe for it ever would happen. What's the likelihood of them, even if they get to that point, of proving this and putting a 94-year-old now -- he's be 95 or 96 before it's all done -- but putting a man that old on a plane to face trial.

CALLAN: I don't know if the U.S. will put him on a plane. If he winds up in Europe, and there's evidence, he'll wind up in prison, because they don't care about age with these war criminals. These are crimes that have so scarred Europe, that regardless of age, they will try potential war criminals if the evidence is there.

BERMAN: Again, they haven't proven anything yet. Investigators are looking into it.

Paul Callan, good to see you.

CALLAN: Always nice being with you, John.

BERMAN: Thanks very much.

A former hit man takes the stand in the trial of James "Whitey" Bulger. We'll have a live report from Boston just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: A confessed hit man takes the stand today in the trial of James Whitey Bulger. He is now 83 years old. Bulger is charged with a long and bloody list of crimes, 19 murders. The alleged mob boss was in hiding for 16 years. He was captured in Santa Monica two years ago. The jury has already heard from a former bookie.

Deborah Feyerick, in Boston.

Deborah, this is my favorite case in the country today. Today, John Martorano testifies. Who is he and what is he saying?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's the government's star witness. He's on the stand, testifying against his former boss. When asked to describe the relationship he had with Whitey Bulger, he said they were best friends. They were partners in crime. They were godfather's to each other's children. The reason Martorano decided to testify against Bulger is he said when he learned he was an FBI informant, he said, quote, "It broke my heart. It broke all loyalties."

Whitey Bulger has made no eye contact with this man. He stared straight ahead. John Martorano, actually, John, admitted to 20 murders. Previously, he cut a deal with the government to get 14 years in prison, and they said he has to testify truthfully against anyone they want. One of the key people he helped put away from the FBI rogue agent, the rogue FBI agent who recruited Bulger and also ran a very corrupt operation in Boston. That was a man by the name of John Connelly. So everyone sitting in rapt attention to this man's testimony because he can say where James Bulger was with each of the 19 murders that he's accused of -- John?

BERMAN: Wow. A lot of history in that room. Whitey Bulger not making any eye contact. That's fascinating.

Bring us up to date on what else we've seen. Earlier, there was a bookie on the stand. What does he have to say?

FEYERICK: Absolutely. The bookie was so interesting. He brought everybody back to a different time. when bookmaking was seen as a noble profession. It was before gambling was legal. He inherited the business from his father and then passed it onto his own daughter. He described his relationship with Whitey Bulger, saying, look, when he dealt with the Italian mafia, it was business. When he dealt with Whitey Bulger, bookmaking had nothing to do with it. All Whitey Bulger wanted was the extortion money, the $2,000 every single month to make sure that operation kept going and make sure people stayed in line and stayed paid basically.

It's really fascinating. You see the ages of these people. This bookie, 84 years old. He couldn't remember a lot of things. He remembered every interaction he had with James Bulger and a co- partner, but when it came to dates and other things, he as a bit more vague. It was very strong testimony. A lot of people in the courtroom, including some of the families of the victims, listened with wrapped attention.

BERMAN: That's fascinating, Deborah. I wonder how much he is conveniently not remembering and how much he is really not remembering.

Deborah Feyerick in Boston covering the trial of James Whitey Bulger. Simply riveting.

Thanks so much, Deb.

Why is Russian President Vladimir Putin calling the owner of the New England Patriots a little weird? It's all about a little bling, shall we say, and a lot of diplomacy. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: The big news out of New England was the tale of an international incident. This story had legs from Cambridge all the way to the Kremlin, and starring Russia's big bear and the very Patriotic Bob Kraft.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Russian President Vladimir Putin was a KGB expert, martial arts expert, goes topless and has intercontinental ballistic missiles. New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft has Tom Brady. So it's pretty much a fair fight, a fight between a nuclear super power and a football super power. Over, all things, jewelry. Not just any jewelry. It's a brewing international incident over a ring, a Super Bowl ring.

ROBERT KRAFT, OWNER, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I'm tremendously humbled by this great honor and --

BERMAN: At a gala in New York City, Kraft told the crowd that Putin swiped his Super Bowl ring back in 2005 when they met in St. Petersburg. According to Kraft, Putin admired the ring encrusted with 124 diamonds and said, "I can kill someone with this ring." Kraft went own to explain, "I put my hand out and he put it in his pocket and three KGB guys got around him and walked out."

Putin, a thief? A spokesman for the president says not. "I was there when it happened. So what Mr. Kraft is saying now is weird. I was standing 20 centimeters away from him and Mr. Putin and saw and heard how Mr. Kraft gave this ring as a gift."

Maybe it's case of lost in translation.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BERMAN: Literally, maybe he lost the ring because of translation or maybe there were bigger global forces involved.

"The New York Post," which broke the story on Thursday, quotes Kraft as saying that White House officials urged him to say the ring was a gift in the interest of U.S.-Soviet relations, and now Mr. Kraft seems to be backing off a bit. The Patriots leasing a statement, "It's a humorous story that Robert retells for laughs. He loves that his ring is at the Kremlin and, as he stated back in 2005, he continues to have great respect for Russia and the leadership of President Putin."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: In a fight over jewelry, you always side with the guy with nuclear weapons.

Thanks for watching NEWSROOM. AROUND THE WORLD starts now.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Brand new revelations about government spying. Britain's "Guardian" newspaper is reporting that the U.K. monitored phones and stole passwords during a 2009 London summit.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Iran elects a new president. Who is Hassan Rouhani, and what will he mean for U.S.-Iran relations?

MALVEAUX: And a British tabloid runs shocking photos that it says shows Food Network star, Nigella Lawson, with her husband's hand around her throat. It reportedly happened right in the middle of a restaurant.

Welcome to AROUND THE WORLD. I'm Suzanne Malveaux.

HOLMES: And I'm Michael Holmes.

MALVEAUX: So good to have you back.

HOLMES: It's good to be back from vacation.