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FBI Digging For Jimmy Hoffa; NSA Leader Answers Questions; Obama Meeting with Putin; Second Autopsy for Georgia Teen: Victim's Grandson Forgives Killer

Aired June 17, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The threat is real, but they're taking it seriously, of course. Updates for you as we get them throughout the hours here on CNN.

Also happening right now, the FBI is digging today for the body of Jimmy Hoffa, again. Union boss, convict, organized crime figure, Hoffa vanished on a hot summer night in Detroit 1975. Hasn't been seen since. And just a short time ago, a lawyer with ties to the case says this is it, for real.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CHASNICK, ATTORNEY: Hoffa's body is in that field.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No doubt about it?

CHASNICK: No doubt about it. There used to be a barn in the field. Buried under the barn under a cement slab. And that's where our understanding is that the body should be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right, so he says. But keep in mind that tips of a dubious nature from tipsters of shaky repute have triggered excavations for Hoffa's missing body as far as New Jersey. As far away as New Jersey. Today's operation is back in suburban Detroit, Oakland Township to be specific. Some 20 miles from the diner where Hoffa last -- was last seen alive. Author Dan Moldea is going to help walk us through all of this. He chronicled numerous crime investigations involving subjects ranging from Bobby Kennedy, to O.J. Simpson and Jimmy Hoffa himself.

So, Dan, whose the tipster behind this latest search for the body of Jimmy Hoffa?

DAN MOLDEA, AUTHOR, "THE HOFFA WARS": Well, this is a pretty good one. This is - his name's Tony Zerilli. Tony Zerilli was the boss of the Detroit Mafia from 1971 to 1974 when he went to jail. Then his elderly father, Joe Zerilli, became the boss of the Detroit Mafia from 1974 to 1977. So he was in place when Jimmy Hoffa disappeared in 1975. And as the boss of the Detroit Mafia, he would have had to check off on the hit.

Now, when Joe Zerilli died in 1977, his new underboss, a guy named Jack Tocco, became the boss. And when Tony Zerilli was released from prison in 1979, he became the underboss of Jack Tocco. So these two guys who were cousins are not knuckle dragger. These are guys who are college educated businessmen.

Jack -- Tony Zerilli shot off his mouth about a hidden ownership the Detroit Mafia had in a Las Vegas casino. It was picked up on a wiretap by the FBI. They prosecuted 16 top guys in the Detroit Mafia. A whole bunch of people went to jail. And everyone blamed Tony Zerilli for it. And so when Tony Zerilli got out of jail during 2008-2009, he was persona non grata. So he was broke, he was -- had no place to go and so he went to a reporter at NBC and he said, I want to show you where Jimmy Hoffa's body is. So he took the reporter to this field in Oakland Township.

So, of course, everyone started looking at the property records and the property's in the name of Jack Tocco. So the question is, is, does Tony Zerilli really know something or is he just trying to get even with Jack Tocco for making him persona non grata in the Detroit underworld?

LEMON: OK. So, Well, Dan, that's a really good question and the thing is, is that - is Tony Zerilli, is he legit? His lawyer says he is. I want you to listen again and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CHASNICK, ATTORNEY: The difference between this and the last digging is, this is a man with credibility. This is a man that would be in the know. This is not some random guy who said, oh, I think he's buried there. This was a person intimately involved with some of the players who would be well informed as to where the body would be placed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What prompted him to come forward now?

CHASNICK: What prompted him to come forward? It's just something that he wanted to get done with that he's dealt with for a long time and he wanted to share where it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, Dan Moldea, back to you. Given all the tips that investigators get, how do they get - how do they go really about deciding this one or that one might be worth pursuing?

MOLDEA: Well, it depends on the cast of characters. There was a very good book that was done in 2004 by a guy named Charlie Brandt who did a book about Frank Sheeran. Frank Sheeran had a whole bunch of credibility problems, but he gave a pretty interesting scenario as to what happened.

In 2006 there was another dig in Oakland Township where -- I'm sorry, in Milford Township in Wixom, Michigan, at a farm which was once owned by a guy named Rowland McMaster. That was also an excellent operation by the FBI. The source was credible. His name was Don Wells.

And the cast of characters was right. This one is also a very interesting situation. Listen, when the FBI takes these things seriously, I take these things seriously. And I've been involved in this now, what, 38 years. And we would like to see this thing end once and for all. We would like to see this case solved. And I say, go, FBI, let's solve this case.

LEMON: And you -- I'm sure you would like to see it solved because what I understand from our booking folks, you're a very busy man today. Everyone wants to talk to Dan Moldea.

MOLDEA: Well, I would like to be in Detroit at the (INAUDIBLE), but I - this is -- being here at CNN, I appreciate being asked.

LEMON: Well, we'll see you throughout the day on CNN, my friend. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Dan Moldea.

MOLDEA: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Now to the man who broke open one of the nation's most secretive agencies, opening up even more now about himself. And this time Edward Snowden took your questions. Snowden did a live chat through the website of Britain's "Guardian" newspaper. And as he is opening up, you have to wonder what authorities are doing to pin him down. The U.S. plans to file charges against Snowden for leaking the classified documents that expose snooping by the National Security Agency. It acknowledged it tracks phone calls and Internet communications en masse. Well, Snowden said e-mail surveillance could be thwarted, telling one questioner this, "encryption works. Properly implemented, strong crypto systems are one of the few things that you can rely on. Unfortunately, endpoint security is so terrifically weak."

Snowden also says he is not a spy for the Chinese, saying he had no contact with China's government. He's had support in one of its cities, Hong Kong, where he went into hiding. And this weekend, demonstrators marched for him. Snowden said this on "The Guardian's" website. He said, "this is a predictable smear. Ask yourself, if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn't I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now."

OK. CNN's Nic Robertson is in Hong Kong with more on Snowden's live chat.

That was a quote, Nic, but Snowden got into a lot of specifics on what he could access as a contract worker for the NSA, didn't he?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, he did. There were about 2,000 questions online waiting for him when he began this chat which lasted about an hour and 45 minutes. Perhaps he didn't want to stay on too long to give away his location, his identity.

But he did talk about, you know, what it is that as an NSA operative you could get access to. He said, you know, if you got the e-mail address, then you would be able to get not just the content, but the IP address and any attachments as well. And he was asked to give really a lot of specifics on that. And this is exactly how he put it. And I'll read from precisely what he said.

He said, "even in the event of a warranted intercept, it is important to understand the intelligence community doesn't always deal with what you would consider a "real" warrant, like a police department would have to do with a warrant. It's more templated form that they would just send out to a reliable judge with a rubber stamp." That is to say there were abuses of the system.

He was also asked the question, Dick Cheney has called you a traitor. And he responded in a pretty firesome way to that and this is what he said. This is how he said it. "This is a man who gave us the warrantless wiretapping scheme as a kind of atrocity warm-up on the way to deceitfully engineering a conflict that has killed over 4,400 and maimed nearly 32,000 Americans, as well as leaving 100,000 Iraqis dead. Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney," he says, "is the highest honor you can give to an American."

So he was pretty fiery in some of this. And he said that he was grateful and appreciated people being interested. But he was concerned because he said some of the mainstream media now were more interested in what his girlfriend looks like than the real debates and issues that should be being talked about here, Don. That's what he said.

LEMON: Nic Robertson in Hong Kong. Nic, thank you for your reporting. Appreciate that.

Edward Snowden's father also going public today. Lonnie Snowden gave an interview to Fox News urging his son to stop the leaks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LONNIE SNOWDEN, FATHER OF NSA LEAKER: And we want you to come home. We want you to be safe. We want you to be happy. But I know you're your own man and you're going to do what you feel that you have to do. I believe firmly that you are a man of principle. I believe in your character. I don't know what you've seen, but I just ask that you measure what you're going to do and not release any more information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Hmm. Lonnie Snowden also said the reason his son dropped out of high school is that Edward missed much of his last year due to an illness and that he received his high school equivalency before the time he would have graduated.

Overseas he is a statesman, but here at home, the president's standing has just taken a nose dive. I want you to take a look at this. This is Barack Obama's job approval rating. It didn't merely slip below 50 percent. It went all the way down to 45 percent in a CNN sponsored poll. That's an eight-point plunge in just one month.

Let's talk about that. We're going to talk about it in a moment. First, though, there's business to attend to at the G-8 Summit in northern Ireland. Our chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin, as you can see, is there.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey.

LEMON: Beautiful backdrop, Jessica. What's happening right now? An important meeting between the president and Russia's Vladimir Putin.

YELLIN: Gorgeous.

LEMON: Yes. They're talking about Syria. And from the sounds of it, Jess, they don't see eye to eye on this.

YELLIN: That is an understatement, Don. You're right, the U.S. and Russia, first of all, just sat down for that meeting. President Obama and Vladimir Putin expected to meet for 60 to 90 minutes and they are on opposite sides of this issue and both sides are pretty dug in.

Russia is supporting the regime of Bashar al Assad. The president of Russia has described some rebels as savages and accused them of eating their opponents' organs. And he's challenged the U.S. for quietly arming some of those rebels.

The meeting now between Putin and Obama is expected to be fraught with tension because of comments like those and don't expect much progress. The general sense is, Russia is unlikely to withdraw its backing from Assad while Assad's forces are succeeding. The most we could hope for is a recommitment to getting all sides to the table for some kind of talks for a political resolution, Don.

LEMON: So, Jess, let's get back to the poll that I read just before I introduced you there in Ireland. You know, the president's numbers are down across the board. But one that jumps out is the concerning -- concerns Americans' trust in the president. The president always polled very high in trust. No matter what was happening in the country, people trusted him, but not so much anymore.

YELLIN: It is a surprising drop to me, too. It's considered long one of his strong suits that he's trustworthy and ethical in the view of Americans. But now only 45 percent of the American people now say, first of all, that they approve of the job he's doing. That's an eight-point drop since May. And a bunch of factors are contributing to that. There's the number of people who consider him honest and ethical, down eight points since the controversy over the IRS and those leaks investigations.

So, overall, only 49 percent of Americans say they think the president, honest and trustworthy. Six in 10 Americans object to the way he has handled the surveillance issues, scoring worse than President Bush on this issue. And all of this seems to be driving a plunge in his approval among core supporters, young people. Their support for him has dropped 17 points since May. Don, not a lot for the president to like in our new poll.

LEMON: We'll keep following that story. Jess, good luck there in Ireland. We appreciate your reporting.

The Supreme Court today striking down the Arizona law requiring voters to provide proof of citizenship. The state argued that it helps prevent voter fraud. But the justices argued with critics who claimed -- who called it unconstitutional. A lot of unnecessary paperwork was the bottom line here.

Coming up, a woman who was one of the youngest death row inmates in America released today. And the victim's grandson is all for it. You're going to hear him explain why.

Plus, a teenager's parents demanded answers and now the body of their son, who was found dead inside a school gym mat, is exhumed. I'll speak live with the medical examiner about what they're looking for in an autopsy. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Rather intriguing story to tell you about. The body of a Georgia teenager who died in January is now in Florida for a second autopsy. Kendrick Johnson's body was found inside his high school gymnasium in Valdosta, Georgia. He had been missing all night. His body was inside a rolled up gym mat. The mat was standing upright and Kendrick apparently suffocated from hanging upside down all night.

But how did he get in there? How did he get in there? In an attempt to answer that question, his body was exhumed Friday at the request of his family. They're not convinced his death was an accident as the initial autopsy concluded. So they've hired a pathologist in Florida to perform a second autopsy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEVENE KING, JOHNSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: We also anticipate that there may be evidence that his death was a cover-up.

EDDIE TOOLEY, KENDRICK JOHNSON'S GRANDFATHER: And it's just sad it had to be done this way, you know. They had to dig him up to get the truth. But if that's what it take, that's what it's going to be. If it was foul play and if somebody did something to him, they got to pay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So let me tell you what the police report says. According to the police report, Kendrick had gone head first into the rolled up mat to retrieve a shoe. OK. So apparently no one else was around when he got stuck and he suffocated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. STRYDE JONES, LOWNDES COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: We examined all the alternatives that were presented to us and the only one that fit the physical evidence and the forensic evidence and the testimonial evidence we received was this was an accident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So Dr. Bill Manion is chief of pathology at Memorial Hospital in Burlington County, New Jersey. He's also the county's medical examiner.

Dr. Manion, thank you for joining us. DR. BILL MANION, CHIEF OF PATHOLOGY, MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: Hi, Don.

LEMON: Is there something -- is something fishy here? Have you ever heard of a case like this?

MANION: Well, it's a very unusual case. And it's the kind of case where, as a medical examiner, I would probably get a second forensic pathologist to help me with it just so we could have two eyes on it, two minds on it to think about. It is extremely unusual to have a death like this. And whenever we encounter cases like this, normally we would get help on it. I'd get my -- another pathologist to help me look at this case carefully because it is very, very unusual.

LEMON: OK. So what -- a second pathologist, does that mean a second autopsy? Because they're asking for a second autopsy. What might a second autopsy reveal that the first one missed?

MANION: Well, they're worried that there might be bruises on the face. And, remember, his -- his body was head down. And so if you die in that position where your body is head down, the blood will pool around your face. So his head looked very swollen with blood and everything. And some people are interpreting that as bruises. We may -- the second autopsy, they may make cuts into the skin to see if that's really a hemorrhage or is it really just congestion from the blood pooling by gravity. Something, quote, livor mortis. L-i-v-o-r. Livor mortis.

LEMON: OK, careful with your mic there because it's brushing up against your -- your tie on the microphone on your jacket when you move around like that. So just careful because I want the audience to be able to hear you. It's very important that they hear you as the expert here.

MANION: Very much (ph).

LEMON: So there are some pictures - there are some photographs that show, as you said, some bruising around his head and many people thought it may be from some rough housing or someone had hit him. But from the photographs, the bruising that you see of his head, could that come from him going into -- down into that mat?

MANION: Yes. Yes. Whenever a person dies, even after death, the blood will continue to move through the blood vessels and will pool in the capillaries. If you die face down, the blood will pool on the front of your body. If you die on your back, the blood will pool in the back of your body. So, yes, this could just be --

LEMON: So this doesn't explain --

MANION: Pooling -

LEMON: It could be him jumping in. It could just be a prank gone wrong. But from the autopsy, it won't reveal that. More investigating would be need. You could just tell them how he died. A second autopsy will just tell them how he died. We won't know if it's a prank or if he jumped in there himself? MANION: Well, a second autopsy is important, I think, because they'll, again, they'll look at the neck. Is there any evidence of strangulation or is the hyoid bone, the (INAUDIBLE) cartilage, are those structures intact? I -- a second autopsy is very good here just to make sure that nothing was missed on the first case.

LEMON: All right, Dr. Manion, thank you. We appreciate you.

She went to jail almost 30 years ago and was the youngest person on death row in the United States. Her name is Paula Cooper. She stabbed a 78-year-old Bible teacher to death. She stabbed her death. Well, today, Cooper walked out of prison. One of the people who helped her get out? The victim's grandson. He told CNN why he fought for her freedom and what he plans to give her now that she's free. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: She was just 16 years old when she was put on death row. And at 10:00 this morning, Paula Cooper became a free woman. She was locked up 27 years ago after she and a group of friends stabbed and robbed a 78-year-old Bible teacher. But one of her closest allies may surprise you. He's the victim's grandson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL PELKE, GRANDMOTHER WAS MURDERED: I became convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that my grandmother would have had love and compassion for Paula Cooper and her family. I felt she wanted someone in my family to have that same sort of love and compassion. I didn't have any but was so convinced that's what she would have wanted, I begged God to give me love and compassion for Paula Cooper and her family and do that on behalf of my grandmother. It was just a short prayer, but I began to think, well, I could write this girl a letter. I could tell her about my grandmother. Share my grandmother's faith. And I realized that prayer of love and compassion had been answered because I knew I no longer wanted her to die. And I learned the most important lesson of my life that night and it was about the healing power of forgiveness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There you go. Bill Pelke says he has been trying to help Paula Cooper since then. Even offering to take her shopping now that she is free. Our legal analyst Sunny Hostin is here.

So, Sunny, we should probably have our religion in - right? That's what -- we were sitting here looking, that is really what forgiveness is about. I'm not sure I'm that big a person.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Yes. Yes, I mean it's extraordinary when you think about it because this was a very violent crime. But I think you keep in mind that this happened when she was 16 and she was placed on death row by the judge. Now in our country post- 2005 the Supreme Court has outlawed and abolished putting juveniles to death. LEMON: Yes, I was going to say, she was the youngest convicted, right, youngest person on death row in the United States.

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: Did her age play a large part in her release?

HOSTIN: Well, no. I -- well, yes, I think absolutely because we just don't do that anymore. But I think what is so fascinating about this, when it comes to the death penalty, people have really strong feelings, right? They either feel -- they're very much in support of the death penalty or very much against it. And now you have this person that was affected by this crime saying, you know, even though this is something that happened, I can find forgiveness. And I think that's really extraordinary.

LEMON: Yes. She was 15 years old, I think, when she was convicted.

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: And there were strong calls for her to be put to death, right, but then they gave her 60 years.

HOSTIN: Right, then the Supreme Court reversed it, gave her 60 years. And a lot of people came out in support of her at a time -

LEMON: Was that unfair, though?

HOSTIN: I'm not sure.

LEMON: The sentencing?

HOSTIN: I'm not sure. I mean I think when the law is the law -

LEMON: Right.

HOSTIN: And you have the death penalty, this, again, was a crime that was so done very -- it was just egregious. I mean you're talking about you steal $10 from a 70-something-year-Bible teacher and you stab her over 33 times. I mean that is so violent. Many would say, if the death penalty isn't appropriate in a case like that, when is it appropriate?

LEMON: You heard what he said, Bill Pelke. You heard what he said. There are many people who say, why the heck should she get out? She did something that was horrible.

HOSTIN: So, so heinous. Because my understanding is that her sentence was reduced to 60 years.

LEMON: Right. Right.

HOSTIN: But she hasn't served that. But I think it has a lot to do with her age. Are we saying in our society that if you do something at 15 years old or 16 years old, you can never be rehabilitated? I'd like to think that that's not true.

LEMON: Does this send a message to other people on death row or life in prison, you think?

HOSTIN: I think in terms of forgiveness, absolutely. Absolutely. And if - you know, I've spent time with folks that are in prison and a lot of times they say what they want most is forgiveness.

LEMON: Forgiveness.

HOSTIN: And this is an extraordinary example of that, right?

LEMON: Yes. It really is.

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: Like you said, he's a very big person. A very big person (INAUDIBLE).

HOSTIN: Bigger than perhaps I would be in that position.

LEMON: Perhaps, but you don't know unless you're put in that situation, but it certainly seems it would be hard to do for anyone.

HOSTIN: Yes. Yes.

LEMON: So, thank you. We appreciate you.

HOSTIN: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

Coming up here on CNN, inside Google's new wi-fi test which involves 30 gigantic balloons.

Plus, it's a move that could change the way you get music. Why the heck did Samsung pay big bucks to just give away Jay-z's new album? We'll break it down.

And the mayor of a huge city slapped in cuffs. Find out what he's accused of doing. It's all next.

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