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Coverage of the NSA Hearings on Capitol Hill

Aired June 18, 2013 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman in for Ashleigh Banfield today.

We have a lot going on, as always, on the show, the day's main news, plus our take on "Daytime Justice."

Is the FBI about to dig up Jimmy Hoffa? We're on the scene outside Detroit this hour, where agents are searching beneath two concrete slabs in the middle of a field. They're chasing a tip from a reputed mobster.

Also ahead, what happens when a crazed passenger starts screaming about national security leaks and poison on an airplane?

And how did a helicopter pull off this nearly impossible rescue, and how did two teens get onto this mile-and-a-half-high cliff-side in the first place?

But first, the growing controversy that refuses to go away, the top- secret surveillance conducted by the National Security Agency, moments ago, NSA chief, General Keith Alexander, revealed that more than 50 plots were foiled since 9/11 because of the NSA secret surveillance program.

But the blockbuster so far is from a man named Sean Joyce. He's the deputy director of the FBI. He revealed four instances that he says secret surveillance has prevented terror attacks, including two really that we have never heard of before.

Here is part of what he said moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN JOYCE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: NSA and the FBI have a unique relationship, and one that has been invaluable since 9/11. And I just want to highlight a couple of the instances.

In the fall of 2009, NSA, using 702 authority, intercepted an e-mail from a terrorist located in Pakistan. That individual was talking with an individual located inside the United States, talking about perfecting a recipe for explosives.

Through legal process, that individual was identified as Najibullah Zazi. He was located in Denver, Colorado. The FBI followed him to New York City. Later we executed search warrants with the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force and NYPD and found bomb-making components and backpacks.

Zazi later confessed to a plot to bomb the New York subway system with backpacks.

Also working with FISA business records, the NSA was able to provide a previously unknown number of one of the co-conspirators, Adis Medunjanin. This was the first core al Qaeda plot since 9/11, directed from Pakistan.

Another example, NSA, utilizing 702 authority, was monitoring a known extremist in Yemen. This individual was in contact with an individual in the United States named Khalid Ouazzani.

Ouazzani and other individuals that we identified through a FISA that the FBI applied for through the FISC were able to detect a nascent plotting to bomb the New York Stock Exchange. Ouazzani had been providing information and support to this plot. The FBI disrupted and arrested these individuals.

Also, David Headley, the U.S. citizen living in Chicago, the FBI received intelligence regarding his possible involvement in the 2008 Mumbai attacks responsible for the killing of over 160 people.

Also NSA through 702 coverage of an al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist found that Headley was working on a plot to bomb a Danish newspaper office that had published the cartoon depiction shuns of the prophet Muhammad.

In fact, Headley later confessed to personally conducting surveillance of the newspaper office. He and his co-conspirators were convicted of this plot.

Lastly, the FBI had opened an investigation shortly after 9/11. We did not have enough information nor did we find links to terrorism, so we shortly thereafter closed the investigation.

However, the NSA using the business record FISA tipped us off that this individual had indirect contacts with a known terrorist overseas.

We were able to reopen this investigation, identify additional individuals through legal process, and were able to disrupt this terrorist activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, that was Sean Joyce, the deputy director of the FBI.

President Obama also continues to strongly defend the NSA surveillance program. He did it in a new interview. We're going to have more on that in a moment.

We're covering all angles of this story. We have Dana Bash on Capitol Hill, national security analyst Fran Townsend joins us via Skype here from New York, and in Washington, chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Dana, I want to start with you. Let's talk about the key points of this hearing and what your sources on the Hill are saying about whether they're satisfied with what they are hearing.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is kind of jointly put out there by the chairman and the ranking member of the committee and the witnesses. This is one of those rare times where this is really a choreographed dance.

However, you just played that very long explanation of what we were waiting for, of new terror plots, new information about terror plots that they say at least were helped -- stopped by these programs.

There was a bit -- I was just e-mailing with a source in the room -- a little bit of disappointment that the new plots were not highlighted more. And I think probably the one that is already -- I see it on Twitter and everywhere else.

It is already really getting people's attention, is this plot that they just said was out there, to blow up the New York Stock Exchange. That is something we didn't know about.

Others like the New York subway plot and others we did know about. This one is new, and so I expect the chairman of the committee, Mike Rogers, to, as one source said, help unpack this, meaning more explain what these plots were and how in fact these secret programs were used to help stop them.

BERMAN: There needs to be some unpacking because there was some very cryptic language used when discussing it.

As you said, he mentioned four plots, domestically, that it's helped break up. We knew about the New York subway. We knew about David Headley, the man involved in Mumbai, but this New York Stock Exchange plot, that seemed new.

So let's bring in Fran Townsend. What's your take on that?

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, John, if you think that one is hard to understand, the New York Stock Exchange, at least you have a target, right? And we can refer to it and try to understand how it is this program advanced the disruption of that plot.

The fourth one is the most ephemeral, the most ill-described, right? He talks about an investigation opened shortly after 9/11. The FBI didn't have enough. It was closed.

The NSA then gave them some lead information indicating indirect contact by someone in the U.S. with someone somewhere overseas that allowed them to use their authorities to disrupt a plot somewhere in the world, we don't know where.

So this is going to require an awful lot of digging for it to be credible, frankly. If they're going to talk about four plots, then they better be able to describe at some level of detail how it is these programs played a direct role in the disruption. And we're not hearing very much of that yet.

BERMAN: We're not hearing very much. You think they need to tell us a lot more. That's a perfect segue to Gloria Borger.

Gloria, before I ask you the question, let's listen to this exchange that President Obama had in an interview last night with Charlie rose.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: What I can say unequivocally is that, if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls and the NSA cannot targets your e-mails ...

CHARLIE ROSE: And have not?

OBAMA: And have not. They cannot and have not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So you have that long self-defense from the president last night. You have this hearing going on at this very moment, which according to Fran Townsend, Gloria, lacks details.

You have been writing, including a very powerful column you wrote for CNN.com, that the president really needs to tell us more. Is this the more that you were calling for?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Uh, no, and I think that the problem here is that people don't trust the Congress, which the president says is completely informed on this.

They don't trust the government, which the president and the administration say is completely informed on this.

They do say, however, we understand why you might need to do this. So what they want the government to do is to lift the veil a little bit on the process, how they make these decisions.

I think you saw the deputy attorney general trying to do that today, trying to methodically outline how metadata does not mean listening into the content of your conversations, for example, and then try to outline exactly the process that they go through, not unlike a grand jury process to kind of explain this to the American people.

But then General Alexander says, well, there are sort of 50 cases. We can only tell you about them ...

BERMAN: Gloria, we actually -- General Alexander is speaking again right now, Gloria. Let's go back to the hearing right now and take a listen to what the general has to say.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED) REPRESENTATIVE MIKE ROGERS (R), HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: ... the NSA to flip a switch by some analyst to listen to Americans' phone calls or read their e-mails?

GENERAL KEITH ALEXANDER, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: No.

ROGERS: So the technology does not exist for any individual or group of individuals at the ns amount to flip a switch to listen to Americans' phone calls or read their e-mails?

ALEXANDER: That is correct.

ROGERS: Mr. Joyce, if you could help us understand that, if you get a piece of a number, there's been some public discussion that, gosh, there's just not a lot of value in what you might get from a program like this, that has this many levels of oversight.

Can you talk about how that might work into an investigation to help you prevent a terrorist attack ...

JOYCE: Sure.

ROGERS: ... in the United States?

JOYCE: Investigating terrorism is not an exact science, and it's like a mosaic. And we try to take these disparate pieces and bring them together to form a picture.

There are many different pieces of intelligence. We have assets. We have physical surveillance. We have electronics surveillance through a legal process, phone records; through additional legal process, financial records.

Also, these programs that we're talking about here today, they're all valuable pieces to bring that mosaic together, and figure out how these individuals are plotting to attack the United States here, or whether it's U.S. interests overseas.

So every dot, as General Alexander mentioned, we hear the cliche frequently after 9/11 about connecting the dots. I can tell you as a team, and with the committee and with the American public, we come together to put all those dots together to form that picture, to allow us to disrupt these activities.

ROGERS: All right. Thank you.

Given the large number of questions by members, I'm going to move along.

Mr. Ruppersberger for a brief ...

REPRESENTATIVE CHARLES RUPPERSBERGER (D), MARYLAND: First, I want to thank all the witnesses for your presentation, especially Mr. Cole. You had a very good presentation. I think you explained the law in a very succinct way.

You know, it's unfortunate ...

(END LIVE FEED)

BERMAN: All right, you're listening to this hearing on Capitol Hill with the NSA director, General Keith Alexander, as well as some other key security officials, outlining the surveillance program, which we now know at least a little more about, and answering questions from very curious members of Congress.

When we come back, we will speak to our experts, our experts. We will unpack this information and tell you what it all means for you and your security. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Welcome back, everyone. We are covering this hearing in Washington. You are looking right now at General Keith Alexander; he is the chief of the NSA. He is answering questions about the surveillance program right now and also questions about Edward Snowden. He is the contractor who leaked so much of the information that we're now discussing nearly every minute of every day. Let's listen.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

GEN. KEITH ALEXANDER, DIRECTOR, NSA: In fact, we are working through our system. Director Clapper has asked us to do that and providing that feedback to the rest of the community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you. I yield back.

REP. MAC THORNBERRY (R), TEXAS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for being here, and for making some additional information available to the public. I know it's frustrating for you, as it is for us, to have these targeted narrow leaks and not be able to talk about the bigger picture.

General Alexander, you mentioned that you're going to send us tomorrow 50 cases that have been stopped because of these programs, basically. Four have been made public, and I think there are two new ones that you are talking about today. But I would invite you to explain to us both of those two new cases, Moelin (ph) and the Operation Wi-Fi case. And one of them starts with a 215, one of these starts with a 702. And so I think it's important for you to provide the information about how these programs stopped those terrorist attacks.

ALEXANDER: OK, I'm going to defer this because the actual guys who actually do all the work when we provide it is the FBI, and get it exactly right. I'm going to have Sean do that. Go ahead, Sean.

SEAN JOYCE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: So Congressman, as I mentioned previously, NSA on the Op Wi-Fi, which is Khalid Uazani (ph) out of Kansas City -- that was the example that I referred to earlier.

NSA, utilizing 702 authority, identified an extremist located in Yemen. This extremist located in Yemen was talking with an individual located inside the United States in Kansas City, Missouri. That individual was identified at Khalid Uazani (ph). The FBI immediately served legal process to fully identify Uazani (ph). We went up on electronic surveillance action and identified his co-conspirators. And this was the plot that was in the very initial stages of plotting to bomb the New York Stock Exchange.

We were able to disrupt the plot. We were able to lure some individuals to the United States. And we were able to effect their arrest. And they were convicted for this terrorist activity.

THORNBERRY: OK, just on that plot, it was under the 702, which is targeted against foreigners, that some communication from this person in Yemen back to the United States was picked up, and then they turned it over to you at the FBI to serve legal process on this person in the United States.

JOYCE: That is absolutely correct. And if you recall, under 702, it has to be a non-U.S. person outside the United States, and then also one of the criteria is "linked to terrorism".

THORNBERRY: Would you say that their intention to blow up the New York Stock Exchange was a serious plot? Or is this something they dreamed about, you know, talking among their buddies?

JOYCE: I think the jury considered it serious since they were all convicted.

THORNBERRY: OK. And what about the other plot? October 2007 that started I think with a 215?

JOYCE: I referred to the plot. It was an investigation after 9/11 that the FBI conducted. We conducted that investigation and did not find any connection to terrorist activity. Several years later, under the 215 business record provision, the NSA provided us a telephone number only, in San Diego, that had indirect contact with an extremist outside the United States.

We served legal process to identify who was the subscriber to this telephone number. We identified that individual. We were able to, under further investigation and electronics surveillance that we applied specifically for this U.S. person with the FISA court, we were able to identify coconspirators and we were ability to disrupt this terrorist activity.

THORNBERRY: I'm sorry. Repeat for me again what they were plotting to do?

JOYCE: It was actually -- he was providing financial support to an overseas terrorist group that was a designated terrorist group by the United States.

THORNBERRY: But there was some connection to suicide bombings that they were talking about, correct?

JOYCE: Not in the example that I'm citing right here.

THORNBERRY: I'm sorry. The group in Somalia, to which he was financing, that's what they do do in Somalia, correct?

JOYCE: That is correct. And as you know, as a part of our classified hearings regarding the American presence in that area of the world.

THORNBERRY: OK. Thank you. Chairman?

ALEXANDER: If I could, Congressman, just hit a couple key points. It's over 50 cases. And the reason I'm not giving a specific number is we want the rest of the community to actually beef those up and make sure that everything we have there is exactly right. I'd give you the number Fifty-X, but if somebody says, well, not this one -- actually what we're finding out is there are more. They said you missed these three or four, so those are being added to the packet.

On the top of that packet, we'll have a summary of all of these, a listing of those. I believe those numbers are things that we can make public, that you can use, that we can use. And we'll try to give you the numbers that apply to Europe as well, as well as those that had a nexus in the United States.

The issue on terms of releasing more on the specific overseas cases is that it's our concern that some of those, now going into further details of exactly what we did and how we did it, may prevent us from disrupting a future plot. So that's something that's work in progress. Our intent is to get that to the committee tomorrow for both -- both intel committees, for the Senate and the House.

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: Great, thank you. Mr. Thompson.

REP. MIKE THOMPSON (D), D.C.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here, for your testimony, and for your service to our country.

Mr. Litt, before going to hearing, does or has the FISA court ever rejected a case that's been brought before it?

ROBERT LITT, GENERAL COUNSEL, OFFICE OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DIRECTOR: I believe the answer to that is yes, but I would defer that to the deputy attorney general.

JAMES COLE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: It has happened. It's not often.

(END LIVE FEED)

BERMAN: OK, you are watching this hearing on Capitol Hill with security officials right now discussing the surveillance program, discussing some cases, some specific cases, that have been broken up terrorist plots, they say, using this surveillance.

We just learned some new details about two plots, some interesting new details. We will discuss these details with our analysts right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

BERMAN: Welcome back, everyone. We are covering a hearing on Capitol Hill with adjourned National Security Agency director Keith Alexander and some other security chiefs are talking about the surveillance program that's been in the news the last week since one of the biggest national security leaks in history. The minute we get new information, we will go back to the hearing.

In the meantime, look at the screen right now because there's already been some big news out of this hearing -- the description of four plots that this surveillance operation helped uncover, they say. Wiretaps -- the phone records, the e-mails, the listening in to conversations between the U.S. and people overseas.

Four plots, a plot to bomb the New York subway system. We already knew about that. The plot to bomb the New York Stock Exchange. That is new. I do not believe we have heard of this before. There was a plot to bomb a Danish newspaper. That was from a man we did already know was under surveillance in the U.S.. And finally there was some terrorist activity shortly after 9/11 we had not hard about before. That turns out to be breaking up some financing to a group in Somalia.

We are monitoring this very closely. Again, this hearing, we'll go back to it the minute there's some new information.

In the meantime, I want to bring back in Fran Townsend, a CNN national security analyst, for us. Also here, Dana Bash on Capitol Hill and Gloria Borger as well. Fran, let me start with you because I want to start with the information about these new plots, specifically the New York Stock Exchange plot. Because they said they used something called 702 authority to identify a man in Kansas City, a man named Khalid Uazani (ph) who had been in contact with someone in Yemen. Explain to me the surveillance that we believe they used and how it all worked.

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So John, as Sean Joyce, the deputy director in the FBI, made clear, the 702 authority is something that can only be used against a non-U.S. person operating outside the United States and involved -- engaged in support or some sort of terrorist activity.

The interesting thing here, what we learned from this most recent exchange, is they identified an individual in Yemen contacting someone in Kansas City, Missouri. They then used the 702 authority as a starting point. The deputy director of the FBI then went on to say they developed additional information and went to the FISA court and got electronic surveillance. They used the electronic surveillance to identify coconspirators who they later lured into the United States, obviously got probable cause, and were able to arrest them, and then ultimately prove them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt because they were convicted in a federal court by a jury.

So that actually -- the detail there ought to give us some comfort that this 702 authority that they're talking about was used in a sort of preliminary way to identify people, but the FBI had worked with the intelligence community and the courts to develop additional information before they were able to use the more sort of expansive authority of an electronic wiretap surveillance.

BERMAN: After they identified him, they needed to go get more authority. But it was key in identifying him. And, again, one of the other key points here, Fran, is that it involved someone overseas and only because it did involve someone overseas were they using these programs.

TOWNSEND: That's right. That's exactly right. I mean, it's the other example where he talks about the 215 authority where they're able to use it to identify the subscriber of the telephone number in San Diego.

Again, even the 215 authority that he talks about, the business records that we have talked about, that authority -- they only use that in a preliminary way to identify as individual, but they have to get additional information to develop enough probable cause to go back to the court and, again, get some electronics surveillance.

That case is less well described. They talk about disruption but they don't say exactly what they were able to do ultimately in that case.

BERMAN: But the plot on the New York Stock Exchange, they did describe as a very real plot.

I want to bring back Dana Bash right now. Dana, it's a very interesting hearing to listen to because you get the sense the members of Congress would like to get more information than they currently are getting. Mac Thornberry, representative Republican from Texas, was almost, you know, begging for more information at one point.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And this is being coordinated -- and just looking down at my blackberry, communicating with people who are in the room, this is being coordinated kind of on the fly.