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Four Thwarted Plots; Times Square Attack; Digging for Jimmy Hoffa; Modern Day Slavery Case

Aired June 18, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Secrets no more. The feds, defending the NSA surveillance program, now revealing that they helped disrupt more than 50 terror attacks, including a plot against the New York Stock Exchange.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

A new study suggests a link between autism and pollution. We'll break it down.

Plus, Angelina Jolie's choice to get a double mastectomy called fearful, not brave. That from cancer survivor Melissa Etheridge. We'll debate.

And a search suddenly heats up for the Times Square bike bomber. New video services of the person who tried to bomb a military station in Gotham.

Good to see you on this Tuesday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

I have to begin with this story that is just into us here at CNN. It's disgusting, the details, but we want to pass it along to you because this really goes to our point on so many of those stories that we can do better.

This is out of Ohio. This is about a woman and her child who are right now, thank goodness, free after being held captive for two years. This is according to our affiliate WOIO. Just about two hours outside of Cleveland in this town, Ashland, Ohio.

What we know is this. In Ashland, Ohio, apparently at least three people are under arrest for what prosecutors are calling modern day slavery. Investigators say the suspects forced the mother to hit her child, all the while this was being videotaped. We're told the suspects threatened to show police the video if she ever tried to talk.

And it gets worse. Because according to these charges that we're just now learning, the suspect used beatings, pit bulls, snakes, and threats of death to keep them from running. We are also told mom and the child are recovering. Again, this is a story just coming in. We're just getting information. I promise you we're making phone calls. And as soon as we can find out more on this, we'll pass it along on you here on CNN. Meantime, to the big story in Washington. The proof is now public that the U.S. government's snooping works to stop terrorists. This has gone beyond metadata and numbers crunching and officials talking in general terms. Folks, we now have names, we have faces, we have targets.

Look at this with me. Details were declassified and then put on the record at this hearing this morning on Capitol Hill. The chief of the National Security Agency and leaders of the FBI, they named these specific four plots that they say were disrupted, were thwarted because of the surveillance programs that critics call a mass invasion of privacy. That is four plots of more than 50, NSA Director Keith Alexander says, where American lives were saved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN JOYCE, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Post 9/11, I don't recognize the FBI I came into 26 years ago. Our mission is to stop terrorism, to prevent it. Not after the fact, to prevent it before it happens in the United States. And I can tell you every tool is essential and vital. And the tools as I outlined you in the uses today have been valuable to stopping some of those plots. You ask, how can you put the value on an American life? I can tell you, it's priceless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I know you want details. Let me just run through these different plots that were stopped. First you have this one. This was the New York subway plot. An intercepted e-mail from Pakistan led to Najibullah Zazi, who confessed to a plot to bomb the system.

Next one takes us to the New York Stock Exchange. NSA flagged an extremist out of Yemen who led them to Khalid Ouazzani, who provided information and support to a plot to bomb the exchange.

The next one is that the Danish newspaper, the NSA found that this working - this American specifically working on the plot to bomb the paper that published cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

And the fourth plot that we learned about today, this is a reopened case, one in which the FBI had closed but the NSA reopened because of what analysts uncovered. And an official said the U.S. was able to, quote/unquote, "disrupt terrorist activity." Again, those are four of more than 50 plus plots.

I want to talk now to two former officials from the CIA. Reuel Gerecht is a senior fellow as the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and Bob Baer is CNN national security analyst.

And so, gentlemen, welcome to you.

And, first, Bob, let me begin with you. When you were listening to the hearings, or reading about it, was there one specific detail that you heard that surprised you?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, what surprised me - well not -- didn't surprise me is there weren't more details. We're essentially taking the words of the National Security Agency that that, in fact, is what undid these plots and that warrants were not need. That the --

BALDWIN: To that point, I mean I started wondering, you know, when the government says - and basically this is the government saying, you know, trust us, we're going to tell you about these four plots. There were 50 plus others that we can't tell you about. Should we, the American public, trust the government?

BAER: Brooke, no. I mean it's - you know, this is - they're investigating themselves, looking into themselves, justifying it and maybe they're right, but I'd certainly like to see all the evidence from beginning to end before I'd make up my mind. And they've just given partial information about these files. And it's not enough to tell for sure.

BALDWIN: Reuel, your thoughts.

Reuel, you with me?

REUEL GERECHT, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Yes, I am.

BALDWIN: What are your thoughts here? Do you agree with Bob that more plots should be declassified?

GERECHT: I think Bob -- hi, Bob -- is being perhaps a tad bit skeptical. I mean I think you should trust but verify. And I think for an opening statement, this was a pretty good one. I think the government, obviously, needed to do it after all the brouhaha that this started.

But, you know, the prism program makes sense. Obviously it's an intelligence officer's nightmare if people are constantly changing their telephones. Tracking one telephone is extremely difficult. Counterterrorism is always a bit of a needle in a haystack.

So I suspect the government, in part, is telling the truth. But I would agree with Bob that I think, you know, we need to look at the cases and re-engineer them, deconstruct them to see if it makes sense.

BALDWIN: But isn't there a danger in that? I mean cases are classified for a reason. You two know that, both having been with the CIA. Is that a responsible thing to do?

GERECHT: Well, obviously, at this point, I think they had to do this. So if you were to do this again, I'm sure the government would rather not declassify them, but I'm sure there are things about this that can be declassified. I think we understand in general what prism is about. There is certainly a danger in the future that, you know, terrorists will be more cautious in the use of digital communications. They should be already. It's usually people's sloppiness that gets them into trouble. It's not the lack of knowledge of what the United States government is doing.

BALDWIN: But - OK, so, Bob, now that we're learning all of this has been going on for seven years, the haystack is getting bigger and bigger and I know there are still so many people left out there wondering, Bob Baer, with this program, why did Boston happen?

BAER: Well, the truth is, these programs, like prism, looking at the Internet, metadata on telephones, are - you know, work best after the even has occurred. Predicting an event is very, very difficult. And that includes a lot of luck in knowing who the pieces are in advance.

So looking at this, the mistakes were made by not informing the National Security Agency about these travel, about not turning this system on the Boston bombers in advance before the bombs went off and they didn't do it. That was a human failing. There's still stove piping in the government. There's so many things to fix that we haven't fixed since 9/11. And, you know, it's -- in totality, this can all work but unless you make all the pieces work together, it won't.

BALDWIN: So then, Reuel, finally to you. You know, let's remember the whole - the reason why we're talking about this. The leaker himself, Edward Snowden, who could be anywhere, presumably in Hong Kong, pretty brazen with this live Q&A with "The Guardian," you know, yesterday. Do you think he's gotten exactly what he wanted?

GERECHT: I don't know. I - I mean I think Mr. Snowden is a bit of a flake, so I think it's difficult to psychologically profile him. He's certainly gotten a lot of attention. I think he knew that was coming. I suspect that he will not kill the program. There is substantial bipartisan support for it in the Congress and that's really all that's necessary to keep it going.

BALDWIN: A flake, so says Reuel Gerecht. Reuel, thank you. Bob Baer, thank you so much for your perspective, both coming from the CIA.

Now to this. Ready or not here, Afghanistan is now officially in charge of its own security. NATO formally handed the job over to Afghan forces at a ceremony today in Kabul. A top priority now is pacifying the Taliban who were ousted from power after 9/11. President Hamid Karzai saying peace talks with the Taliban will take place soon in Doha, Qatar. Sixty-six thousand U.S. combat troops still remain in Afghanistan.

The FBI and New York Police want your help. They are taking a new look at the unsolved attack on a military recruiting office in Times Square. They have just now released this never seen surveillance video. CNN's Mary Snow is tracking the story for us in New York.

Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, five years after a bombing in Times Square that remains unsolved, the FBI is making a new push to find answers. It's turning to the public and social media for answers, offering a $65,000 reward and releasing new surveillance video in the hopes someone will come forward with information.

The small bombing took place in 2008 outside a U.S. military recruiting station. Fortunately, no one was injured. The FBI says the person behind it may be linked to two similar incidents. One blast at the British consulate in 2005 and another in 2007 near the Mexican consulate. All the bombings happened in the middle of the night and the person who detonated the explosives was riding a bicycle. The FBI says the devices used were similar. They were all made with military grade ammunition cans, black powder and a time fuse. A federal law enforcement source tells CNN's Susan Candiotti that the bomb in Times Square was stronger than the device detonated during the Boston marathon in terms of destructive capability. But, unlike Boston, it contained no shrapnel.

Now, authorities did recover the bicycle shortly after the Times Square incident, but the FBI would not comment on whether they were able to obtain any forensic evidence from that bike.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Mary Snow, thank you.

Coming up, folks in one neighborhood say crime is on the rise, so they're being forced to defend themselves. You're going to hear about this thing called the Glock block and why neighbors warn they're not going to be calling 911.

Plus, a new tip involving Jimmy Hoffa referenced concrete slabs. Guess what? Crews are removing concrete slabs today. We will take you live to the search in one of America's biggest unsolved mysteries.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Digging for Jimmy Hoffa day two. We're going to show it to you right here. It's pretty simple. That is where they're searching. This is a square about the size of a party tent. And somewhere in there they're looking for a shallow grave. This is Oakland Township, Michigan. Just about 20 miles north of where the former teamster boss and mob connected felon last was seen alive all the way back in the summer of '75. It's sort of assumed he was rubbed out, as they say. Susan Candiotti is at the dig site for us.

Susan, and if this Zerilli guy is right, and this is a big if, but if this tipster Zerilli is right, then the story of Hoffa's death, how he was killed, by whom, it begins to become just a little more clear, correct?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, absolutely. Imagine all these years when we've never known what happened. This could be the solution, the answer that everyone has been seeking. Again, if the information that this retired 85-year-old mobster, he's done time himself for racketeering and fraud, has now come forward because he said he wants to clear his conscious and set things straight. And if the truth is being told to him by his fellow mobsters, that means that Jimmy Hoffa was led to this property that you see behind me, he was whacked up with a shovel and then buried alive under a concrete slab.

And here's an excerpt from a manuscript that this elderly man is working on that describes what he was told by fellow mobsters, that Hoffa was, quote, that fellow mobsters "picked up a shovel and cracked Hoffa over the head." And then he goes on to say, "then hit Hoffa a few more times and Hoffa started to moan. They threw him in the hole and buried him, end of story."

Now, Brooke, this information, again, is coming from a mobster who, according to law enforcement sources, is being treated as though he does, indeed, have something to say. Certainly he has some pedigree, you could say, in the mob. He's been around. He's got friends in high places.

This is how the lawyer for -- his name is Tony Zerilli, sums up how the FBI is looking at the information he's provided.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CHASNICK, ATTORNEY: The difference between this and the last digging is, this is a man with credibility. This is a man that would be in the know. This is not some random guy who said, oh, I think he's buried there. This was a person intimately involved with some of the players who would be well-informed as to where the body would be placed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What prompted him to come forward now?

CHASNICK: What prompted him to come forward? It's just something that he wanted to get done with that he's dealt with for a long time and he wanted to share where it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Now, Brooke, so this gentleman has put a manuscript online, Tony Zerilli. He has not taken a polygraph, but his lawyer says he wasn't asked to take a polygraph by the FBI and now they're hard at work, over my shoulder. They've got that backhoe going. And they're looking under these - where the concrete slabs were. The lawyer for Mr. Zerilli says there was yet another concrete slab under there. So, again, it's a wait and see period. We're waiting to see how long it will take them to clear this area and they have forensic anthropologists standing by from Michigan State University ready to test any samples that might be taken.

BALDWIN: Susan Candiotti, we will stay in close touch to you. Susan, thank you.

We will have now much more on our breaking news out of Ohio. I told you about this horrendous alleged crime at the top of the hour. We will speak live now with the police chief about this woman and her child who were just discovered after being held captive for two years. The attorney general calling this modern day slavery. Details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Want to get you back to the breaking story here out of Ashland, Ohio. About two hours away from Cleveland. Well, we have just learned a woman and her child are free right now after being held captive for two years. This is according to our affiliate WOIO.

Here's what we know. This happened, as I mentioned, in Ashland, Ohio. At least three people under arrest for what prosecutors are calling modern day slavery. Investigators say the suspects forced the mother to hit her child while it was being videotaped. We're also told the suspects threatened to show police the video if she ever tried to talk. And, according to the charges, the suspects used beatings, pit bulls, snakes, and threats of death to keep them from running.

We're told the mom and the child are recovering. Just to try to get a little bit more on this case, joining me now is Ashland Police Chief David Marcelli.

And, Chief Marcelli, thank you so much for hopping on the phone with me. I know that this is a federal case so you can't get into the specifics, so I'm going to see what questions I can answer - you can answer as I ask them. Beginning with, can you just give me a brief update on at least the health conditions of mom and child?

CHIEF DAVID T. MARCELLI, ASHLAND, OHIO, POLICE (via telephone): The mother is in the custody of children -- or, I'm sorry, the daughter is in the custody of children services at this point and the mother is -- she's been out from her jail sentence for a while. So I'm not sure exactly what her whereabouts are. But I know that she's safer than she had been.

BALDWIN: I'm sorry, you said she was out from her jail sentence. What do you mean by that?

MARCELLI: Well, she was originally charged as well as part of this case.

BALDWIN: How -- how was she charged as part of this case if, according to these allegations, she was held captive by three suspects, along with her daughter? Just trying to fill in the blanks here, sir.

MARCELLI: Well, the -- the condition of the child, when the child was in her care --

BALDWIN: I see.

MARCELLI: Necessitated a criminal charge as part of the state complaint that had developed into this federal case once the seriousness nature of the allegations came forth.

We contacted the FBI and they contacted the United States attorney and that was shortly after the suspects were indicted. And they've been working together with detective from my agency.

BALDWIN: Can you give me, chief, an idea of the timeline? When - when were these two -- when was the mother and the daughter found? How were they found?

MARCELLI: October of last year the mother was charged with shoplifting and the officers that took that complaint detected that there was other issues aside from the shoplifting. We've had numerous involvements with these -- this group of people. And because they were astute enough and paid attention to what the woman was saying, they picked up that there was something wrong. And in the course of that investigation and through the course of interviewing her, they discovered the rest of these facts slowly.

BALDWIN: I see.

MARCELLI: But she revealed what had been going on.

BALDWIN: So this woman, thank goodness she was shoplifting for her sake. So she was shoplifting for the people who had held her captive and she, based upon the astuteness of people around, realized something was a little fishy, started asking questions and that is how you're saying that she was found and then she led them to her daughter.

MARCELLI: Correct. It was a long process of developing information and corroborating testimony from other individuals that had seen what had gone on but had not reported it. The detectives and the FBI agent involved in this worked well together and did a great job of tracking these folks down and eliciting this information from them.

BALDWIN: How long had she been missing? How long has she been - was she allegedly kidnapped?

MARCELLI: She really wasn't missing, she just was living with those folks. And the condition under which she was living was not made known to anyone other than some of the inner circle of the group.

BALDWIN: So she was on her own free will living with these suspects --

MARCELLI: Yes.

BALDWIN: Who were allegedly beating her and frightening her with pit bulls and snakes? That doesn't make sense to me.

MARCELLI: Well, the case is what it is and we can only go with what the facts are.

BALDWIN: You said that these suspects were indicted. What are the charges they're facing?

MARCELLI: The state charges were subsequently dropped as a result of the new federal charges. So I'm not sure where -- what the status was of that. But for the federal charges, you'd have to contact the U.S. attorney.

BALDWIN: OK. We'll do that. Was she -- when she apparently willingly started living with this group of individuals, was she with her daughter at the time?

MARCELLI: Correct.

BALDWIN: She was with her daughter at the time. What more can you share about this story?

MARCELLI: I really can't go into any details.

BALDWIN: OK.

MARCELLI: Again, it's the U.S. attorney's case at this point and I'm really not at liberty to share any of that without their approval.

BALDWIN: OK. I just wanted to ask a couple questions. I know it's the U.S. attorney who is calling this modern day slavery. We'll follow up with - on the federal level and see what charges they're now facing.

David Marcelli, Ashland, Ohio, police chief. Thank you so much, sir. We appreciate it.

MARCELLI: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, a study that is getting everyone's attention. A possible link between autism and pollution. We'll explain that.

Plus, more breaking news today. Chrysler making a big move after refusing to agree to a government recall. Stay right here.

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