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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
George Zimmerman Murder Trial; The Return of Crossfire; Zimmerman Murder Trial; Interview with Chris Bosh
Aired June 26, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, tears, racial slurs and language we can't repeat. The star witness takes the stand in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial. And a --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL JEANTEL, FRIEND OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I asked him what the man looked like. He looked like a creepy (EXPLETIVE DELETED) cracker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: And a former NFL star in court in handcuffs charged of murdering a friend. We break it all down in tonight's "Law and Disorder."
Plus the Supreme Court makes history. I'll talk to the two lawyers who opposed each other in "Bush versus Gore" and came together to make the case against Prop 8, David Boise and Ted Olsen.
Also Van Jones and Stephanie Cutter on the left, versus Newt Gingrich and S.E. Cupp on the right. It can only mean one thing, crossfire is back on CNN. Look at them all ready to cross fire at each other. Wow. What -- what an imposing panel you all look tonight. It comes a little bit later. Very exciting.
And tonight we take on Edward Snowden, same-sex marriage and Texas' 500th execution.
But I want to begin tonight with an explosive day of testimony from a star witness in the George Zimmerman trial up until now. Rachel Jeantel was known as witness number eight. She's the teenage friend who's on the phone with Trayvon Martin in the moments before he was shot and killed by Zimmerman. And her testimony this afternoon was must-see from everything from tears to talking about -- Trayvon Martin's death to some language we can't repeat here.
CNN's Martin Savidge has all the latest.
Martin, a dramatic day in court today.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was an incredible day, Piers. Yes, this was a witness that everyone had been waiting to see. Highly anticipated really is not leveling it up enough. This young lady, of course, as you pointed out, was on the phone with Trayvon Martin at the time that he crossed paths with George Zimmerman. It's the critical moment and she has the answers, at least from the state's perspective, as to what really went on.
A number of things that she brings out and this is all for the prosecution. She says that while on the phone with Trayvon, Trayvon says to her, I'm being followed. Well, this is at the time that George Zimmerman has already identified Trayvon Martin in the neighborhood.
Then later she says she can hear over the telephone someone confronting Trayvon Martin, and she says it's George Zimmerman. So already, we're seeing a change here. And then on top of that later, she hears Trayvon saying, get off, get off, well, that would imply that George Zimmerman is now the aggressor and on top or at least trying to get on top of the young teenager.
So this would all fly directly in the face of self-defense that George Zimmerman has been proclaiming. However, this young witness has a lot of credibility issues, and that's of course what the defense was going after saying that her testimony has changed over time and she has admitted to lying in this case -- Piers.
MORGAN: She also, Martin, had a kind of strange demeanor, I thought in court. The sort of thing you haven't seen for a long time, irritated in parts, very annoyed at some of the questioning. Didn't want to come back. How will that play for the prosecution given that she's such a crucial witness?
SAVIDGE: Right. I think a lot of people were looking at it going oh, boy, this is a train wreck. However, we're looking at it from a different perspective than of course jurors. In a lot of ways, it's possible that jurors could look at her attitude. She clearly was not wanting to be there. She has said she really didn't want to be there. It upset her in a number of ways. She was the last person that talked to him, but I think she also comes across as somewhat credible because of that fact.
In other words, she doesn't have anything to lose and she did seem to have a certain sincerity, if you could read it through all of the attitude, and that's of course the real question. Only the jurors know. I tried to watch faces. I know people who were in there are looking at them. There was never a time the jurors got emotional, although Trayvon Martin's family did get very emotional at times over what she had to say.
MORGAN: Martin Savidge, thank you very much indeed. And we'll, I'm sure, talk again tomorrow on this dramatic case.
Joining me now to break down what happened in tonight's "Law and Disorder," Gloria Allred and we also have Jayne Weintraub and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Welcome to you all. So it's like a (INAUDIBLE) hit show. I wasn't quite sure who was coming. But there you all are and looking very star full, I must say. Let me start with you, Jeffrey Toobin. Your reaction today to what happened and in particular, Jeffrey, this key witness because it's hard to work out after that performance whether she was brilliant for the prosecution, or potentially not so brilliant. What do you think?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, she was an unusually difficult witness to evaluate because she was like a surly kid up there. She answered in half sentences. It was very hard to hear or understand a lot of what she said. She admitted that she had lied under oath in the past.
She very much seemed sympathetic to the Martin family and to the prosecution, so all of that could, on the one hand, make her seem like a terrible witness but on the other hand she just seemed like a kid who was telling the truth in certain respects, at least the crucial aspects of her testimony, which is that Trayvon was on the phone saying this guy is following me and making me uncomfortable. That's the key part of her testimony, and that seemed believable to me, anyway.
MORGAN: Well, let's take a look at that particular clip of what she said about the sequence of events. Let's watch that first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: I asked him how the man looked like. He looked like a creepy (EXPLETIVE DELETED) cracker and then I just told him run. And then he said, why are you following me for? And I heard a hard breath man come say, what you doing around here? And I start hearing grass and grass -- wet grass sound.
I kept on going Trayvon, Trayvon, and I heard a little bit Trayvon saying get off, get off, and suddenly the phone hung up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: And Jayne Weintraub, I mean, if you take that at face value and that is the truth, that's a pretty devastating indictment of what George Zimmerman did, isn't it?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it is and isn't, Piers, because you have to remember the only issue here really is self- defense. It was what was in George Zimmerman's mind at the confrontation. It's really not about this young lady's credibility because her credibility, it's a wash what her testimony is.
Yes, she was a difficult witness. She was impossible. She also said things like she heard the wet grass movement. I mean really? What does that sound like? So the reality is she's rolling her eyes. She's talking to Trayvon. She's saying he's running hard, he's breathing, he's scared and she's doing her hair on a Bluetooth. So to me, I'd discount it because if it was that horrible she would have taken the Bluetooth off, she would have listened, she would have called somebody, but she didn't.
But that also doesn't go to who confronted who first. Trayvon was very angry. He's annoyed that this guy is watching him and looking at him, so maybe, just maybe he's the one that started the confrontation because for self-defense it's only what's in the mind of George Zimmerman --
WEINTRAUB: -- did he have a reasonable fear of imminent hard or great bodily harm or death at that moment.
MORGAN: Let me play -- OK, let me play a second clip. This is for you, Gloria, to comment on afterwards. This is quite an interesting point that she made which I think will resonate with the jurors. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: Do you watch "First 48"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't hear you.
JEANTEL: Do you watch "First 48"? They call them the first number that the victim talked to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, the "First 48"?
JEANTEL: A show, the "First 48," when a victim died, they call the number that the victim called before, and they have it. And they didn't call my number, so -- and they had already got the person so case closed, I thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Now, Gloria, I thought this was a really fascinating part of today's testimony. Because what she's saying is look, I watched this TV show and it's about cops and investigators and so on, and in this kind of situation, they would always get the phone that Trayvon Martin's cell phone, and they would see who he had been talking to in his last few minutes and they would go and interview that person.
The police didn't do that. And -- she should have called out everybody, the police, the investigators, everybody. Is that significant?
GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, I think it is interesting that young people often learn about the criminal justice system from television, as opposed to in school. And so what she was saying is, I watch this television program. The police are supported to call me, I'm not supported to call the police, and they didn't call me, and that's why I didn't go to law enforcement.
MORGAN: But why didn't they call her?
ALLRED: Well, why didn't they call her? I don't know because they should have called as soon as possible to get her testimony, to get her statement for the police and to get it before Mr. Crump was able to record her, which he did and now -- MORGAN: Trayvon's attorney.
ALLRED: Yes, Trayvon's attorney and now she's having to defend what she said to Mr. Crump, which apparently was played on television, she said she didn't know it would be. Now she's saying that she didn't take that very seriously what she said, and she has to defend a lot of inconsistencies, also some of the lies that she told and yet she was honest about the lies that she told.
She explained -- she gave a reason at least why she lied to the victim's mother about not going to Trayvon's funeral. She's under pressure. She doesn't want to be there. She didn't want to be involved in all this. She was obviously upset that Trayvon was died or was killed and she really didn't want to be a part of it, but she went along with it and talked to Mr. Crump along with the victim's mother.
MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, I want to play -- this is where she gets challenged why she was inconsistent in some of her previous evidence. Let's see what she said about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: You've got to understand what I'm trying to tell you. I'm the last person, you don't know what -- how I felt. You think I really want to go see the body after I just talked to him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: There was also, Jeffrey, before you respond to that, I want to play the final clip of that, when she was -- suddenly made aware that she may have to come back. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe we can break until the morning --
JEANTEL: No, I'm leaving today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that?
JEANTEL: I'm leaving today. No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you refusing to come back tomorrow?
JEANTEL: To you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much more time do you think that you need to finish your cross?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I certainly wouldn't -- I don't know for sure. I would think we should plan on at least a couple of hours.
JEANTEL: What? (END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, I totally agree with you, Jeffrey, that there may be inconsistencies but she's a kid. She clearly doesn't want to be there. Finds it incredibly difficult. And we should also remind people, I think, that she's in the glare of television cameras, putting footage around the world, also her own, you know, background, her own Twitter feed, her Facebook posts, all that kind of stuff in her life is now being picked up by the media and they are trying to go after her.
You know, it's not a pleasant experience, is it?
TOOBIN: No, and I have to say, you know, the candor and the honesty, I mean, I just love that moment. When I was watching live I almost fell over laughing to tell you the truth. Because, you know, he says two hours and she goes, what?
I mean, she just -- she just doesn't want to be there, and she responds, not like someone who would take the oath -- she's like a kid. She's like, I don't want to be here. Two hours, are you kidding?
Now, you know, obviously that's not the way a witness is supposed to behave, but does that tell you that she's lying? Not really. I don't think. I just think it just shows that this is -- this is a 12th grader. She's still in 12th grade and she really doesn't -- doesn't want to be there. You know, we'll see if she really is discredited in -- on the substance of her testimony, but so far I haven't seen it.
MORGAN: Let's turn now to another matter, also with Trayvon Martin, but then also the murder case, of course, today against former Patriots star, Aaron Hernandez.
Curt Meneffee is the host of "Fox NFL Sunday" has joined me.
Curt, what do you make of this? I mean, pretty sensational development. This guy last year signed a five-year, $40 million contract and now he's on a murder charge.
CURT MENEFFEE, HOST, "FOX NFL SUNDAY": Yes, it's one of those circumstances that obviously you don't see a lot for good reason. But it's --
ALLRED: OK, now --
MENEFFEE: It's a lot of questions, just as many questions as we have answers. Circumstantially it looks like this guy is guilty. The case they laid out, it looks like everything is against him, but I go back to the Ray Lewis situation back in 2000. He was arrested for murder after the Super Bowl in Atlanta, held without bail for two weeks, did a plea bargain his way out of that, testified against his accomplishes, and wind up getting nothing. So, you know, you don't know, are they arresting him to try to get him to turn against guys, or are they arresting him because they actually believe he did it.
ALLRED: Or are they arresting him because the other guys already flipped and turned against him?
MENEFFEE: That's the biggest question. I agree. Because some of the specifics they had on this case, the reason that the motive was supposedly there was that he was upset with the guy for talking to people he didn't like. Well, someone had to tell them that.
MORGAN: What is crucial is this will be the weapon. And we've got a new photograph obtained by TMZ showing Hernandez holding what appears to be a Glock handgun in a photo he took of himself on his cell phone.
Now, Gloria, how significant could that be in all this?
ALLRED: Well, if, in fact, it's the same gun that was used, we don't know because -- and by the way, the search warrants have been sealed, the records have been sealed, so we really don't know. Right now all we've got is speculation guesses. His attorney is saying this circumstantial evidence, well, circumstantial evidence is good evidence and has been used often to convict people.
MENEFFEE: And again, is it circumstantial because two guys -- there are two other accomplices we know, that were in the car, that were seen on tape, that they have records of those guys being there, but because the court records are sealed, their names haven't been out and we don't know if those guys are telling the police he shot him. They may be --
MORGAN: You know, I interviewed Bob Costas recently and we talked about the culture of guns in the NFL. This is another example, if that's what it is. If it turns out he's convicted and he used a gun and so on. There is this culture, isn't it?
MENEFFEE: I think --
MORGAN: Of NFL players of having a gun, empowering themselves with a weapon?
MENEFFEE: I think there is a culture of guns among young people, and I think that's the issue. I think people forget that NFL players, a lot of NBA players, most of these guys are 23, 24, 25. The average NFL career is four years. You get in your 23, you're out, you're 26, 27. So a lot of young people and part of that macho image in America right now, right or wrong, is that you've got to have guns, you've got to roll, you know, with your homeys, and I think that's as big a problem as anything else.
A lot of these guys come out of bad situations. But they don't say, I'm out of that situation now. They try to prove to their friends, I haven't changed and that winds up getting them in trouble even though they get out, get the big contracts. MORGAN: Curt Meneffee, thank you very much, indeed.
We've got more analysis of the Zimmermann case and look what we can expect tomorrow coming up a little later in the show.
But first, the two men who convinced the Supreme Court to make history today. David Boise and Ted Olsen teamed up to argue against Proposition 8 and they join me next.
And "Return of Crossfire." The new team makes its debut right here tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID BOIES, ATTORNEY FOR PROP 8 PLAINTIFFS: The United States Supreme Court in two important decisions brings us that much closer to true equality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today I finally get to look at the man that I love and finally say, will you please marry me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: They were adversaries on Bush v. Gore, we all know how that went. But Ted Olson and David Boies teamed up to argue against Proposition 8 before the Supreme Court. And today, they helped to make history. Joining me now are Ted Olson and David Boies.
Gentlemen, congratulations on a very successful day, obviously. Was it as successful as you would wished it to be?
TED OLSON, ATTORNEY FOR PROP 8 PLAINTIFFS: We are tickled to death with what happened in the Supreme Court today. It's a victory for all these people in California that wish to get married to the person that they love.
This is what we set out to do when we first took this case, and this is what happened today in the Supreme Court of the United States. The vindication of the rights to these individuals to be treated with dignity and respect and equality. We could not be happier.
BOIES: And I think --
MORGAN: Are you -- if I can -- let me rephrase the question. If I can just rephrase the question. Are you frustrated, though, despite the success, that what we didn't get today from the Supreme Court was a decision on a homosexual's constitutional right to get married in America?
BOIES: Well, what you did get was a decision that I think lays the groundwork for decisions all across the country to establish marriage equality in every one of the 50 states.
Now what happened in the case that we brought in California is that because the governor and the attorney general did not appeal that decision, the Supreme Court did not have jurisdiction to decide the case on the merit. But what the Court did was vacate the appeal and that brought back into effect the district court's decision, and the district court's decision does establish that broad civil right for all Americans under the Constitution to marry the person they love. You can hear the people around here, you'll understand how they are encouraging today's victory.
MORGAN: Ted Olson, I was struck by one comment today from Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who said - and I quote directly - "It's a tragic day for marriage and our nation." I mean, to me, a tragic day for America is 9/11, Pearl Harbor. It's not the day the Supreme Court says that two men or two women that love each other can get married. What is your reaction to what Cardinal Dolan said?
OLSON: My reaction - my reaction is the same as that, and I want to amplify what David said. Four years ago when we brought this case, we wanted to overturn Proposition 8, and that's what happened today. And what we are talking about people who love one another, who want to be together, and if everybody in America could stand where David and I are standing now and looking at the people and the happiness in their faces and their eyes that they can now be treated equally with the rest of their citizens in California --and this will spread like wildfire all over the United States. Today was an unequivocal victory for gay and lesbian individuals and Americans who strive for equality and dignity and the American dream. We are so happy this came out the way it did.
MORGAN: David, I mean, Justice Scalia did this very extensive, very long (INAUDIBLE) dissent, one of the great dissents in Supreme Court history, clearly not happy at all. What was your reaction to that? Because it seemed to me pretty over the top.
BOIES: Right, Justice Scalia has been on the other side of this issue for 10 years. Ten years ago today, Lawrence against Texas was decided, the first major civil rights decision by the Supreme Court establishing rights for gay and lesbian couples. And Justice Scalia dissented in that case.
One of the things I think is remarkable, though, about Justice Scalia's dissent is that he's very candid in recognizing that the fight is over. He comes out on the other side, but he's very candid and honest about saying that the fight is over. That once the Court had decided what it decided today, establishing marriage equality in all 50 states is just a matter of time because it's just a matter of applying the same principles the Court articulated today to additional cases from additional states.
And he even puts in his dissent a way that the court's opinion can be written, where all you have to do is substitute a particular state's name for DOMA. And I think he's recognizing, as we all recognize, that today a new day has dawned in America. We now have established full equality for gay and lesbian citizens. And we've brought ourselves closer to the ideals of our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. All we have to do now is implement --
MORGAN: Now -
BOIES: -- (INAUDIBLE) with these people around here are going to be willing to help.
MORGAN: Well, a lot of people celebrating down there, and quite rightly.
Finally, Ted Olson, what does this mean in terms of the bigger picture? When will people start getting married, gay people in California, do you think in terms of a time scale. And, you know, given what happened today with DOMA, the hash reality remains that although they can get married in California, the same gay couple who are now entitled to the benefits that have been brought in by this decision, if they go to a state later through work, necessity or whatever that doesn't recognize that, they are back where they started. When do you see America, given the way and the speed this is moving, actually moving to what California has in totality?
OLSON: I don't know that -- because it was very difficult to hear your full question. You can hear the enthusiasm here that tends to drown out part of what you're saying. To the extent that you're asking about a timetable, we don't know exactly when that will occur for legal procedures take awhile before the decision becomes final and it becomes effective in California. We're studying all that. We'll do -- we'll deal with that the same way we dealt with everything else in this case, carefully and deliberately, we'll know what we're doing before we go forward.
But the fact is that very, very soon, tens of thousands of Californians will be able to embrace the people they love and get married. And that will spread like wildfire all over the United States. Starting today, it's going to go everywhere.
MORGAN: Ted Olson and David Boies, you've obviously famously opposed each other in the past. I prefer you getting together because that seems to be very effective. So, congratulations on a terrific day, and long may you continue to move forward with this in the future. Greatly appreciate you coming on the show tonight.
Next is the return of "CROSSFIRE." CNN is bringing it back, and we've got the brand-new team right here first. And they are chomping at the bit. Look at them. Chomping.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT NOVAK, FORMER CROSSFIRE HOST: If you don't mean being called a radical --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I am a radical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know why you're so defensive, Rush. what is wrong --
RUSH LIMBAUGH, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Because I take my business as seriously as you take yours, and the term radical implies irresponsible. It implies dangerous and all this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: From 1990 that's "Crossfire" with a younger Rush Limbaugh, making his case as a guest. Tonight the great news is that he's not back on "Crossfire." He's too old and too boring. Instead CNN is bringing back the "Crossfire" format with four incredible new co- hosts, and we have it all together here for the first time. Van Jones, Stephanie Cutter, Newt Gingrich, and S.E. Cupp.
Welcome to you all. And for the first time, may I say, welcome "Crossfire." This should be very lively. We're going to have a little taste from it tonight. Let's get straight into this.
Newt Gingrich, you must be absolutely thrilled about the Supreme Court's decisions today.
NEWT GINGRICH, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": Well, I was thrilled that you're missing the core point that eight million Californians voted a particular way. Their governor and their attorney general refused to defend them, and as a result, the court didn't actually decide the substance of the case. David Boise was quite clear. The court said there is nobody here who is standing to defend the case, therefore the case is remitted because of that or amended because of that.
It strikes me that the -- the eight million people in California have a pretty good reason to be a little more alienated from Washington than they were yesterday.
MORGAN: Let me ask you just very quickly before we go to the rest of the panel, why are you so opposed to gay people having the same rights to get married as you? I mean, why?
GINGRICH: First of all, I'm not opposed to gay people having the right to have a relationship.
MORGAN: But to get married, I said.
GINGRICH: Much like Cardinal Dolan who you were dissing. I actually do believe as a Christian that marriage is between a man and a woman.
MORGAN: Well, Cardinal Dolan described it as a tragedy for America.
GINGRICH: And it's a --
MORGAN: A tragedy?
GINGRICH: Well --
MORGAN: A tragedy that two loving people of the same sex can't get married like you and me? That's a tragedy for America?
GINGRICH: I think if you want to reject the right of the Catholic bishop's collectively, not just Dolan, to actually stand up for their values and you want to say that's -- and you want to trivialize it, that's your right, but in fact, I do believe states are making arrangements. What I object to in this case is very clear cut. You had a 5-4 decision to reject eight million Californians on the grounds that eight million people have no standing before the Supreme Court.
MORGAN: OK. OK.
GINGRICH: That's a huge mistake.
MORGAN: No, I hear that. I hear that. Let's go to Van Jones. It seems like you want to get in there.
Is this a tragedy for America, Van?
VAN JONES, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": Well, first of all, I just want to say, as a Christian, if you're concerned about traditional marriage, Kim Kardashian has done more harm to traditional marriage than any gay person. The institution of marriage has been falling apart on heterosexual has been screwing it up. We're the ones getting divorced. We're the ones cheating. We're the ones who were -- were shacking up.
The people who brought the dignity and the honor back in the institution are the lesbian and gay community. And the problem that we have now is, just because you put something on the ballot, if you put it on the ballot in the civil rights of 1950, we wouldn't have them. The court has a job to do to protect people. I'm glad they did the job.
MORGAN: OK. S.E. Cupp, this is quite startling. I think you're going to agree with Van Jones.
S.E. CUP, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": Well, when it comes to Prop 8 I agree with Newt. It's a rejection of the voices of the people and that is -- that's a shame. I am a conservative who happens to support gay rights. I'm a conservative who supports marriage. I'm a conservative who supports gay marriage. So on DOMA I think there was a victory, but to me the significant ruling in DOMA wasn't just that the federal government has to acknowledge the right of gay people to marry but that the federal government has to acknowledge the right of the states.
As a small government conservative who supports federalism, I think this was a huge victory for federalism. And if you believe in small government --
MORGAN: OK. CUPP: -- and conservatism with a C, then you have to see that as at least a silver lining.
MORGAN: OK. Stephanie Cutter, you're putting a face like you've either eaten a very, very, very bad onion or you don't agree with that.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": No, not an onion. I was just waiting to speak. You know, I don't think it's a surprise where I stand. I am very happy about the Supreme Court's decision today on DOMA. A lot of us have been against DOMA for a long time, has been fighting to overturn it.
In terms of the decision on California, you know, yes, eight million people voted for a ballot initiative. But as Van said, people have voted before and they've been wrong. That's why we have checks and balances in our government. We have three branches of government and the courts performed a check on the people and vice versa.
And I think that today, you know, there was a check on ensuring that people have equality in California. And I think that's why --
MORGAN: OK, well, I --
CUTTER: You know, what we saw in the background of Ted and David was a huge celebration. People in California are embracing this.
MORGAN: Yes. No, you got a lot of happy Americans on this tragic day for America.
Let's move on to Texas because Texas is fascinating to me right now because you have this extraordinary scene last night with the Senator Wendy Davis doing this 13-hour filibuster. Didn't in the end quite work. She was three hours short. This is about the fact that Rick Perry and the others in Texas want to bring in some of the toughest abortion laws in America which had effectively shut down many abortion clinics in Texas.
What I -- what I liked about this, I want to start with you, Newt Gingrich. Rick Perry said in a statement, "Texans value life." That's when he said. This was his argument for bringing in these incredibly stringent abortion laws. This is the same Texas, unless I'm mistaken, that today celebrated the 500th execution since 1982.
JONES: Five hundred.
GINGRICH: Yes, 500.
MORGAN: Five hundred executions as a valued life. It also has some of the most lax gun laws which have led to some of the most gun deaths in America.
Again, I questioned how far this valuing life goes in Texas. Over to you, Newt, explain to me.
GINGRICH: Well, first of all, the total number of executions you cited for Texas in total over the years is about the same as the number of people killed in Chicago last year with among the most restrictive gun laws in America. So I -- I mean, I think you're draping a red herring.
Second, this extreme bill you're talking about is based on when babies start to feel pain, which is a scientific fact. Babies at around 20 weeks clearly feel pain and this is a bill which says that if that's -- if you have not had an abortion by the 20th week, that you're now putting the baby through pain, and that's why they drew that particular line.
I mean, you can decide you don't care about babies having pain and that the woman's right over rides that but the bill is actually based on scientific studies of when babies start to feel pain.
MORGAN: Van, any good?
JONES: Well, you know, part of the reason we want to have this show "CROSSFIRE" is because the show, which we haven't talked about that much, is going to be a half hour long and we're going to have one topic at a time so we can actually get deep into this stuff.
I think a lot of people do feel some ambivalence about the balance here between the fetus and the mother. But the problem you've got, though, in Texas is this railroading that's going on from the governor's kind of abused his authority.
And this new hero. This Senator Davis has stood up, she stood on her feet for 11 hours, 13 hours, she is going to be a force to be reckoned with. And I -- you know, we're not going to be able to talk about every issue in depth here. But I want to see people like her come on the show, your show, come on "CROSSFIRE" --
I agree with that. But, S.E., I'd rather -- I'd rather right now here the reaction of S.E. Cupp --
CUPP: Thank you.
This lionizing of Wendy Davis who is a politician and did what politicians are supposed to do --
JONES: She's a great leader.
CUPP: -- I think would make Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglas and Rosa Parks roll over in their graves, are standards for what counts as a hero today, has become so shockingly pathetically low. Not to mention Democrats used to want abortions to be safe, legal and rare. This bill would introduce those safety precautions, which are commonsense, healthy, safety precautions. Democrats have lost their rational commonsense on the issue of abortion.
And it's going to -- the pendulum is going to swing back in the other direction as the majority of the country who is in the middle on this issue realizes these positions are extreme.
CUTTER: If I can just jump in for a second --
MORGAN: OK. Well, talking of extreme position, I'm going to -- yes, Stephanie, last word to you, make it brief, please.
CUTTER: Well, I think the pendulum is already swung and it's been against Republicans, who've been putting these initiatives forward to restrict women's ability to make their healthcare decisions. So if there's going to be any backlash, backlash is going to be against Republicans. We've actually already seen that in one election. They're digging their hole again and we'll probably see it in the next election.
MORGAN: Well, listen, I want to say how excited I am about this "CROSSFIRE" coming back. I think it's a great idea. I think your four are going to be fantastic because actually I would like to have kept you on for longer tonight but we can't. And that is a good sign. That means I'm going to watch "CROSSFIRE" and I think most people watching will thoroughly enjoy it just to see Newt get wound up every night.
I mean, that alone will be worth the entrance fee.
CUPP: I'll say that.
MORGAN: So thank you all for coming on.
CUPP: Thank you.
MORGAN: Great to have you on first on the show and come back again soon. Looking forward to "CROSSFIRE" starting in the near future. Good to see you all.
Coming next, high drama --
JONES: Thanks, Piers.
MORGAN: -- from the George Zimmerman murder trial, but what will happen in the courtroom tomorrow? We'll tell you what to watch out for, it's coming up next.
MORGAN: Tomorrow is day four in the George Zimmerman murder trial and if today is any indication, we expect the testimony to be explosive, emotional and surprising. But will it help or hurt the prosecution?
Let's bring Martin Savidge, live from Sanford, Florida, and in Washington, CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Welcome back to you, both.
Martin, just procedurally what is likely to happen tomorrow?
SAVIDGE: Well, I mean, you know, if you were a viewer and if you're a court watcher and you liked this afternoon, you're going to love tomorrow because it's going to be more of the same. We're going to have -- Rachel Jeantel is going to pick up where she left off. The defense is probably very aggressively going to try to poke holes in the consistency of her story. They have to be careful because it is still a young person and it is a person who has been traumatically affected because she was the last person to talk to Trayvon Martin and they were friends.
So there are a lot of people that have their opinions about this young woman and how much you can really trust what she says, but in the end only six opinions matter, those are the jurors, and we'll wait and see what they have to say.
MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, I mean, I said earlier, I sort of agree with your take on this that she -- I think the credibility outweighs the -- you know, occasional inconsistency. I would expect that somebody in that age to be brutally honest with you. And on a bigger picture, do you think we're going to see Zimmerman give evidence himself?
TOOBIN: Not a chance. Not a chance. His story will be in front of the jury. He makes statements to the police officers. Those are -- those are going to come in. Everybody on the jury will know that his defense is self-defense. If he were to take the witness stand, he would be confronted with all the -- at least somewhat contradictory things he said.
Most defense attorneys avoid putting their clients on the stand. I just think there is almost no chance he will take the witness stand. I don't see what he has to gain by it, and I think he has a lot to lose.
MORGAN: And in terms of the bigger issues this case raises, race being a factor as many people feared or is it really coming down to a test of Florida's self-defense laws?
TOOBIN: Well, criminal trials are really always about individual cases. They are not examinations of society and the state of race relations in Florida or anywhere else, but it is an unmistakable theme of this trial. Those 911 calls where Zimmerman keeps saying, you know, there is a black kid walking around. There are these black kids that look say suspicious.
I mean, no one is going to miss the implication on the part of the prosecution that Zimmerman had some problem with black people. So yes, I mean, this is not really a big case about the state of race relations, but race remains at the heart of this case, and, you know, I think it will only be more present as the trial proceeds.
MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, Martin Savidge, it's a gripping case and I'm sure continue to be so. Thank you both for joining me.
Coming next, NBA champ Chris Bosh is in "The Chair," he's right next to me in any moment. Here he comes. Talk about -- god, he's huge.
Chris, how are you, mate? Good to see you.
CHRIS BOSH, NBA CHAMPION, MIAMI HEAT PLAYER: Nice to meet you.
MORGAN: I'm feeling instantly intimidated. No wonder the Heat win all their games. We're talking about obviously their great triumph, LeBron James, his future and much more after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOSH: For all those guys who left, you know, make sure they don't come to game seven. We only want the guys who are going to stay in the building for the whole game. You know, and -- you know, you never give up. People gave up on us, and, you know, they can stay where they are and watch the game at home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Spoken like a true champion that he is. That's Chris Bosh who helped the Miami Heat capture another NBA title. Well, the champ joins me now.
I quite agree with you, Chris Bosh. What the hell were they thinking? Slinking out just because you were having a tough game.
BOSH: Yes, you know, sometimes it looks bad. But I remember telling my wife, we were watching I think basketball in the regular season. And she said, oh, it's a 10-point lead, only two minutes left. I said no, you never give up on the game.
MORGAN: Absolutely right. Now -- I love watching -- I'm am a Knicks fan, so let me lay my cards on the table.
MORGAN: But I -- in this particular competition, I was backing you guys in that finals, because I thought there's something about the Heat that's magical to watch. Great players, on top of their game. You get all this flak, don't you? Everybody wants to whack the heat. How do you collectively as a team deal with that?
BOSH: Well, I mean we rely on each other a lot. I think a lot of it is just the way we came together. The facts that we came together but we always let it be known that we're here to win basketball games. We're here to have fun and we're going to work together.
And we know the common goal of ourselves and we know the common message that we always put out there. It's always positive. It's always about team work. And we just feel if we continue to do that, just be yourselves, everything will work out fine.
MORGAN: Your all made LeBron. He's got quite some mental strength because he was being told he was a write-off, he'd had it, this was the finals that was going to expose him as the lightweight that he was. And I'm thinking, this guy is the best player in the world right now. And he did what all great champions do. He came and had the game of his life in the seventh game. Helped win you guys, I think. How does he deal with the particular pressure that he gets, because it's extraordinary?
BOSH: It is extraordinary. I think that's the best words that you use when describing him. But just -- everything that he deals with, I think I've never -- I don't think the world has seen an athlete deal with so much. You know, he was thrust into the spotlight when he was 15, 16 years old. And he was supposed to be the next guy, you know, the chosen one. And to actually go through those things and still accomplish some major goals that people never ever even dream of reaching, I think that's special in itself.
And just the fact that he's able to just overcome every challenge that's come his way is quite remarkable.
MORGAN: Talking remarkable, we've had this big day at the Supreme Court today and obviously recently NBA player Jason Collins made history, he came out. What is your take on all this? Do you think that you're going to see more professional athlete now having the courage perhaps spurred on by American public -- to be more open about things like their sexuality?
BOSH: I think so. I think, you know, America is changing, of course. As time goes on things change and people are fighting for rights. And rightfully so, they should. And I think just with more people gaining confidence, I think more of that will happen. But that's on the fellows who -- you know, the guys and the girls who have to really take that step. We don't know anything they're going through. You know, so whatever they're going through in their heads or with themselves or with their families, as long as everybody is happy, and treat themselves, I think that's what's most important.
MORGAN: How have you managed to avoid the normal scandal that goes with almost every top sportsman? You're squeaky clean, you've got this lovely wife who's sitting over there, expecting your third child. I couldn't find any skeletons rattling in your closet.
BOSH: Well, you know --
MORGAN: Am I not trying hard enough?
BOSH: Yes, I'm just a lucky guy.
I'm a lucky guy. Yes, I've been just really blessed to be in this position, not only to play basketball at a high level, win championships, but just to get the opportunity to have great kids, have a beautiful, loving wife who supports me in everything I do. I mean, I tell them all the time that I'm the lucky one. I'm the person who is just lucky to have them in my lives, and I do everything for them.
MORGAN: I actually tweeted about you in the -- when you did that brilliant pass that went out in the (INAUDIBLE), you know, whatever. I used to play a bit of basketball. The only American sport I can actually claim any knowledge of. But you're a champion. There's a few players on that Heat team who are just natural born winners.
What do you think it takes when you literally, ironically get the Heat, what does it take to win these things?
BOSH: Against us?
MORGAN: Yes. What does it take for you guys to win? Do you --
BOSH: For us to win.
MORGAN: To be a champion?
BOSH: Oh, boy. I think just think of the hardest thing you'll probably have to do, taking those challenges and actually beating them. You know, we faced a lot of adversity during the playoffs, especially everybody saw it in game six. I think that was kind of the tipping point of the whole thing.
MORGAN: What do you say to each other? After that game, you get together, you've escaped by the skin of your teeth. You've got one last chance at it. What do you say to each other?
BOSH: You know what, I had two conversations -- well, during the game?
MORGAN: Just generally, how do you deal with that kind of game where you just about get away with it?
BOSH: Well, you just have to play the game and luckily it went our way. And I remember, we went to overtime, of course, and won the game. But I had two conversations, very short. I went to Ray Allen and we were just kind of sitting there in just kind of -- in disbelief. And he looked to me and he's like, how did you get that rebound and see me? I said, I don't know, you were right there.
And then after that, I walked past LeBron, and we were trying to remember what sequence of the game happened and how we were able to get to that last point, we couldn't remember.
MORGAN: Really? Just all happens in the moment.
BOSH: It was a very -- a very blurry situation, and it just -- it was over before we know it. MORGAN: Well, it was brilliant to watch. As I mentioned, a quick shot-out to your nonprofit organization, which is dedicated to helping children and their families and the community, it's called Team Tomorrow, Inc. And best of luck with that. Best of luck with the Heat next year. Will LeBron be with you next year?
BOSH: Thank you. I'll give him a shout-out to see if he comes.
MORGAN: If he's not available, (INAUDIBLE), Morgan is available. All right?
BOSH: That's right.
MORGAN: It's basically my nickname. Chris Bosh, great to see you.
BOSH: All right. Thanks.
MORGAN: Congratulations again.
That's all for us tonight. On this tragic day for America, I think it's a great day for America, it's a day America took one step forward to not having bigotry in this country. And that's great.
And tomorrow night, we'll have all the latest, of course, from the George Zimmerman trial. But that's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.