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Dr. Drew
George Zimmerman Murder Trial
Aired July 10, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a dummy takes center stage in the George Zimmerman trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this person, this mannequin, were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now in relation to me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be at your left inner thigh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the injuries on Mr. Zimmerman`s back of his head consistent with someone doing this?
PINSKY: Did this life-sized doll say more than any witness on the stand?
Then this -- Zimmerman will not testify. Was it the right decision?
I am bringing back my report card, my jury and my behavior bureau.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt.
Coming up -- hi, Jenny -- a dummy comes to court, Taaffe comes back to the behavior bureau, and my jury arrives at its own verdict.
But first, we heard from George Zimmerman today. He told the court himself he would not testify. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY, FL: Have you made a decision?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, MURDER DEFENDANT: Yes, Your Honor.
NELSON: And what is your decision, sir?
ZIMMERMAN: After consulting with counsel, not to testify, Your Honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a person charged with murder, he would have a motive to fit the facts is what --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. Anybody -- if somebody was guilty of something and they want to lie, you wouldn`t lie to get yourself into trouble.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody, nobody other than the defendant had a firsthand account from start to finish, did they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no. There was only one person there that`s unfortunately still here with us that can do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have the testimony of a woman named Rachel Jeantel? Did you hear her say in her testimony that the phone went dead shortly after or right after she heard a bump?
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: I started saying, "Trayvon, Trayvon, what`s going on?" And I heard a bump. And I had a feeling it was the bump of the headset. Then I started hear grass sound, wet grass sound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize this being a human-type figure? Right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s actually got a belly button, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It surely does. You`ve got your knees up pretty high on his waist. Do you want to slide down little bit more so that you`re -- there you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were the injuries on Mr. Zimmerman`s back of his head consistent with someone doing this on cement?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was -- and I really don`t like to use this type of terminology --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve heard words that we normally don`t use, so - -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure.
Soft. Just physically soft.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What information were you able to glean concerning Mr. Zimmerman`s physical prowess or abilities?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without sounding offensive, he really didn`t have any.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez joins us with the latest.
Jean, what have you got?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, it was quite a day. I mean, absolutely. When we saw the prosecutor with this dummy and he put it so close, Dr. Drew, to where the jurors were, and started demonstrating.
And prosecutor John Guy is a really tremendous prosecutor, and the jurors, as he was doing this, they stood up in the back row, the first row strained their necks to see. They were riveted at what he was showing the jury. And then the defense took it on cross examine -- on redirect examination and started it again with their theory.
PINSKY: And when Zimmerman came in and spoke about not appearing, what was that moment like in the court?
CASAREZ: Well, you know, the jury wasn`t there, because they are not to be there when the judge questions the defendant, but I could tell he wanted to testify. I could just feel it and Mark O`Mara later said in a press conference that he did want to testify, but I think they really had a serious discussion today about it.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Thank you so much, Jean.
Joining us: Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief of globalgrind.com, he is on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation. Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com. Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco and author of "Not a Genuine Black Man". And social commentator Shahrazad Ali. She`s the author of "How Not to Eat Pork or Life Without the Pig."
Now, the state, as we heard, brought a dummy into court. Both sides used the dummy to demonstrate what they believe happened the night Trayvon Martin was killed.
My question to the panel -- Mark, I`ll start with you first -- who won the battle of the dummy?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I`ll give the slight edge to the defense, but let me say, both sides used it extraordinarily effectively. Both sides.
Listen, this prosecution team, the defense team, they`re really good. I have not said that in any high-profile trial. Both are really good, and I think both used the dummy effectively to argue their points.
PINSKY: I`ve got to say, mark, I thought of you when I saw the dummy demonstration. I thought, wow, this is like -- this is like Mark Eiglarsh porn, this is what this is.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: This thing really gets --
EIGLARSH: Drew, Drew --
PINSKY: Mark was very into this.
EIGLARSH: That is not my porn, my friend. That is not my porn.
PINSKY: Jenny, what are you saying?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Listen, I`ve been saying all along that what`s upsetting to me is that there seems to be a lot of reasonable doubt here. And I`ve said before, I just -- and again, I`m not on this jury and probably thankfully, because even hearing the evidence as it`s been presented, I still feel like George Zimmerman should be punished. I still believe something wrong -- well, obviously, something really wrong happened, but I think he should be punished.
That said, I feel like both sides using the dummy in the way that they did gave reasonable doubt. There were too many alternatives to how this could have gone down.
PINSKY: Jenny, you said something here really kind of important.
I want to go to Ms. Ali on this. You understand that Mark Eiglarsh has pounded into my head that there is not sufficient evidence to prove that it wasn`t self-defense --
HUTT: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: But a lot of people, like Jenny, feel like, but something bad happened here. What are we to do with those feelings, Ms. Ali? She may not be hearing me --
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: -- things bad could happen, and it`s a good thing we don`t spend much --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ALI: It`s a good thing we don`t spend as much time on every case. We wouldn`t get anything tried. But what we`re looking at is that dummy should have been white, because then it would have shown where the bodies were touching and actually, you know, what kind of bruises could have showed up and everything. But by them always making the bad guy black, you couldn`t tell what the bruises or movements were on the dummy.
EIGLARSH: Oh, come on!
HUTT: Oh, come on.
EIGLARSH: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: Hang on, guys, hang on.
EIGLARSH: Really? You`re making that good race?
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO SHOW HOST: Are we really going to go there with the dummy?
PINSKY: Brian, that`s what I want to hear from you. You`re new for me. Please tell me your thoughts are.
COPELAND: Well, first of all, I agree with the previous comment. I believe George Zimmerman has to pay in some way for what he did here. I don`t think they are going to be able to prove second-degree murder. I don`t think they`ve proven second-degree murder.
Certainly, it`s manslaughter. The bottom line here is that if George Zimmerman had kicked his behind in his car, in his vehicle, we wouldn`t be here! There would be no trial here.
HUTT: Right.
COPELAND: So you`ve got a 17-year-old kid walking down the street, minding his own business. Next thing you know, he`s dead. And again, somebody needs to -- there needs to be a message sent here.
HUTT: Right.
ALI: Listen --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali.
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: But, Drew, if I could --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali first, please. Ms. Ali, go.
ALI: Yes. What if this case had been reversed? What if Trayvon had been white and Zimmerman had been black? Would we still be going through all of this, spending a whole year going through this back-and-forth? Would that case still be as important as it has turned out to be now?
You know, the media decides what the news is and what`s going to be important. So, they have thrust this into our face so much, everybody thinks this is the case of the century, and it is not.
PINSKY: Michael, go ahead.
COPELAND: Well, you cannot blame this on the media. You cannot blame this on the media. It was the fact that he was not charged for so long that people around the country were outraged --
PINSKY: That was the outrage.
COPELAND: -- and began to protest. It wasn`t the media that made this story. It was the outrage.
PINSKY: I want to hear from Michael. Michael`s been behaving himself. Go, Michael.
ALI: Yes, it was.
SKOLNIK: If I could just get in here. Thanks, Drew. Ms. Ali, just for one minute, please"
If I could get in here for one second. I think what John Guy did effectively today was put that dummy on the ground and show it`s physically impossible for Trayvon to be straddling George Zimmerman and for him to go into his waistband and get his gun. So, you would have to be coming off of George Zimmerman to actually get into his waistband and get that gun and shoot Trayvon.
So, I think it`s an amazing, excellent point for the prosecution to show it was physically impossible of George Zimmerman`s story and what happened that night.
PINSKY: OK. I want to show you something else. The sheriff in Broward County produced a public service announcement that addresses -- it`s an outreach PSA to the community regarding preparing for an acquittal. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your voice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And not your hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to stand together as one. No cuffs, no guns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s give violence a rest, because we could easily end up arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know your patience will be tested, but --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE & FEMALE: Law enforcement has your back!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s back up and choose not to act up and deputies are with us, so no need to act up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michael, you were shaking your head before I even started playing this thing.
SKOLNIK: Yes, I saw the video today, drew. I`ve got to tell you, nobody has been violent. The only person who`s been violent is George Zimmerman when he shot Trayvon Martin through the chest. Every protest, every rally, every petition has been nonviolent.
So, anyone that put out there that supporters of Trayvon Martin are going to be violent is ridiculous.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, you say this precipitation for acquittal reminded me that you say, in fact, this is going to sound -- I`m not saying this, this is Mark saying it -- that Zimmerman must be acquitted.
Now, without launching into too much court procedure, why do you say that?
EIGLARSH: Let me make something clear, OK? My heart goes out to this family and Zimmerman may have done some things that Jenny is disturbed by. He might have actually pointed his gun at Trayvon and done horrible things, but it`s all about proof.
Let`s understand something -- the talking heads have led everybody down the path of mistake. He is allowed under the law -- it`s the Gibbs case. I`m happy to send it to everybody. He can legally confront Trayvon. That`s not what the evidence tends to show, in my opinion, but let`s say he goes up to Trayvon, confronts him. As long as he doesn`t use force or threatens to use force, he doesn`t lose his protection under self-defense.
PINSKY: Well, mark, hold on, Mark --
EIGLARSH: The state has a gaping hole. I`m not done. They have a gaping hole in their --
PINSKY: So, we can go in there and yell at somebody --
EIGLARSH: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: -- and say offensive things and evocative things, and if that person turns on us, we`re not going to be responsible for that in any way?
EIGLARSH: The answer -- well, hold on. Legally, you are allowed to say offensive things, according to the Gibbs case, as long as you don`t use or threaten to use force. That`s not words, it`s physical contact.
PINSKY: All right.
EIGLARSH: It bothers us in the court of public opinion --
COPELAND: Wait a minute, wait a minute --
EIGLARSH: -- that he might have done it, but they can`t prove it. That`s the problem.
PINSKY: Brian --
EIGLARSH: My heart goes out to the family, but legally, they have to follow the law.
PINSKY: Got it. Brian, finish me up.
COPELAND: OK, here`s the question, looking at the Gibbs case, then. Are you allowed to stalk somebody? Are you allowed to stalk? And I would even make the argument that he menaced Trayvon Martin. Here`s a kid walking home from the store.
Doesn`t Trayvon Martin have the right to defend himself? And I love, by the way, I want to mention this --
EIGLARSH: Yes, both of them. The answer is yes.
COPELAND: All right. So, that being the case, again, I don`t think there`s a case for second-degree murder, but certainly --
ALI: It`s all water under the bridge.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, Ms. Ali, I want to take that water under the bridge, hold it. Hold it. Hold that thought and I`m going to go to commercial and you`re going to tell me what you mean by the water being under the bridge and what your thoughts are.
Obviously, an emotionally charged case for everyone. My question and what I`m feeling is whether or not Trayvon`s family is prepared for whatever the verdict might be. And later, I have a jury, convening the jury. It returns. What is their verdict?
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They broke into my house. I heard some bangs downstairs. The dispatcher told me to grab any weapon I had. The guy was -- I was locked in my son`s bedroom, and he was shaking the doorknob trying to get in, and I was sitting there with a pair of rusty scissors and my son in one arm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know George Zimmerman as your son, I imagine?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. Absolutely, it`s my son, George.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let me go to a quick Twitter here before I go to Ms. Ali. This is from Hello Poodle. "Kids are taught about stranger danger. Why shouldn`t Trayvon defend himself against an aggressive stranger?"
And Mark just explained to us.
EIGLARSH: I`ve got to address this.
PINSKY: Well, you explained to us that you can.
Go, go ahead. Then, Ms. Ali. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Let me make something clear. A not guilty verdict because the state failed to prove this case doesn`t mean that Trayvon wasn`t right. Trayvon was right. I believe Trayvon was standing his ground. He was showing self-defense for a creepy guy who was following him!
But we`re focusing on Zimmerman`s actions and the state failed to prove that he wasn`t using self-defense. That`s it, legally.
PINSKY: Now, Ms. Ali, you`re up. You said it`s water under the bridge before the break. What did you mean by that?
ALI: OK, what I was saying -- what I mean is that all of that who, what, where, when and why is over with now. We`ve moved on to another stage, and that stage is that there is an element in our so-called black communities across the country, not just in Florida, who are not out there singing kumbaya and we shall overcome, you know?
People are not going to just accept this. And the police nationwide are getting prepared for what might be a problem, because if this does not turn out -- and even if it turns out that he`s guilty and only gets 36 months, that`s not going to be enough.
PINSKY: OK.
ALI: You know, we`re not going to be bump dancing down the street talking about doo-da, doo-da. It`s not going to work this time.
PINSKY: Brian?
COPELAND: Well, I`ve got to agree, reluctantly agree with Ms. Ali on this. If there is an acquittal, if he is acquitted and walks, I believe -- I hate to say it, but I do believe there is going to be violence. I mean, if you look back and look at Rodney King, for example, you can draw a parallel in --
ALI: There`s already been violence. No, there`s already been violence. The violence --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: But when -- but I`m talking about widespread violence. I`m talking about widespread violence. I`m talking about mass riots. I`m talking about like what happened in the early `90s with Rodney King. When you`ve got a case that appears so clear cut, such as the police on video beating a guy senseless, or in this case, a kid walking down the street minding his own business who ends up dead, and then there is not justice in the court system, there is a sense of frustration in the African-American community. That frustration can and has in the fast bubble over into violence.
PINSKY: OK, Michael --
COPELAND: And the problem I have, too --
PINSKY: Brian, go ahead, finish. I want Brian to finish.
COPELAND: The problem I have here, what really bothers me is why African-Americans have a tendency to burn down their own communities. I don`t get that.
PINSKY: Yes.
COPELAND: It`s like, I`m so mad, I`m going to burn my own house down. It makes no sense to me at all, no.
PINSKY: Brian, let me ask you this, and, Michael, you sort of pick it up after I ask Brian this question. I look to me, Sybrina, Trayvon`s mom, could be a stabilizing force in all of this. She seems like a lovely woman.
SKOLNIK: Yes.
PINSKY: She could be our new Rodney King, really, if she calms everybody down. Do you think she -- I`m going to ask you, Brian, first --
ALI: Oh, give me a break.
PINSKY: Why, Ms. Ali? Why not?
COPELAND: I agree. I totally agree. I think that Trayvon`s mother - - if Trayvon`s mother makes a statement immediately after the verdict, makes a kind of can`t we all just get along kind of statement, I think that that will go a long way. If she --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali --
EIGLARSH: She can make the statement now --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: If you riot, you dishonor my son. If she says you riot, you dishonor my son.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: Well, let me talk!
PINSKY: I`m going to give Michael a chance, then you. Michael, go.
SKOLNIK: Yes, I know Sybrina very, very well. She`s an incredible human being. Her words mean a lot, not just to this case but to this nation.
But let me say something, Dr. Drew, we have been talking about for weeks what if there is an acquittal. What if there`s a guilty verdict? I disagree with Mark. I think the state`s case is very strong. I think the only self-defense is that George Zimmerman had a few cuts in his head and he`s claiming he was going to die.
No one from the state side and no one from the defense`s side has said that Zimmerman was going to die, that he was in danger of losing his life. He exaggerated his bruises and his bumps, he exaggerated how deadly he thought Trayvon`s punches were --
EIGLARSH: He may have.
SKOLNIK: And what if he`s found guilty?
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: He may have, but there`s no one to prove otherwise, Michael. That`s the problem.
ALI: I need to back up. Now, see, you`re letting them talk over me, and if I do that, then y`all are going to be reprimanding me. What I was saying is historically, whites have come into our community and burned them down. So don`t act like it`s a new idea that we set anything on fire. You all used to come into our community and burn them down, hang us, lynch us, burn us, tar and feather us, and then every time we object, you say, well, let`s don`t have no violence, let`s everybody calm down. If you all would leave us alone, we would calm down.
COPELAND: We`re burning down our own communities, Ms. Ali, that`s the problem. We`re burning down our own communities.
PINSKY: I will like Jenny to talk. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: OK, Dr. Drew, number one, I agree he`s a creepy guy. This Zimmerman.
Number two, I think I would have more faith in humanity. Nothing that happens now is going to bring, sadly, Trayvon Martin back. So, if people are going to resort to violence, then that`s incredibly disappointing.
And I would like to think -- let me just finish. I would like to think that I have more faith in people in every community that they will not resort to violence should there be an acquittal, even if it`s not the verdict that most of us want. I just believe in people. Really. And I`m hopeful.
ALI: You know, the people that resort to violence, the people that resort to violence are always crying let`s don`t have violence. I don`t understand this country. You know, this is just the most convoluted way of thinking that we do.
HUTT: What?
ALI: I hope that black people don`t do that because I know that the law is waiting on them to put them in jail, to shoot them and injure them. So, I`m begging that a darkened, hidden element in our community, please don`t come out and riot. It`s not going to do any good.
PINSKY: Thank you. Ms. Ali, God bless you, thank you for saying that.
Brian, I want you to take it home. And let me just say -- let`s remember, law enforcement now is all of us. It`s not just white or whatever. And again, it`s more muddled than just black and white, isn`t it?
HUTT: Right, yes.
COPELAND: Yes, it certainly is. I don`t want to say support your neighborhood watch after what`s happened in recent events, but we do certainly all have to look out for each other. But going back to what Ms. Ali said, just to bring this home, as you said.
You know, Martin Luther King preached nonviolence. Dr. King`s entire civil rights movement was based upon non-violence --
ALI: And y`all didn`t like him!
COPELAND: And no, they didn`t, however, he never resorted to violence. And unfortunately, when he died, there were riots all around this country, which again dishonored everything that Dr. King stood for.
ALI: He got killed! He got killed! He got killed!
COPELAND: Do you think Dr. King would have wanted people rioting around this country because he got killed? Is that what you`re saying, Ms. Ali?
ALI: No.
COPELAND: Are you saying that`s what Dr. King would have wanted?
ALI: No, he would have changed his mind. He was coming around to some new ideas.
COPELAND: Yes, but they weren`t violence. He wanted the war in Vietnam --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: No, ma`am, you`re wrong. No, you`re wrong.
ALI: You only liked King after he was dead.
PINSKY: Hold it. Listen. The fact is, we still honor him deeply because of his nonviolent advocacy, don`t we?
COPELAND: That`s right.
PINSKY: That`s really what we value --
ALI: And that`s because --
PINSKY: You`re right, we should have listened more when he was alive. You`re absolutely right. I will agree with that. Thank you, panel.
EIGLARSH: Respect the verdict.
ALI: Y`all didn`t honor him until after he was dead.
PINSKY: George Zimmerman`s good friend, you know who I`m talking about. He gets all of you angry. He`s going to the behavior bureau and my bureau is not letting him off the hook this time. We learned something interesting about him yesterday, but we`ll talk about it.
And later, we are grading the witness who prompted the dummy to make an appearance today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: Yes, we know it ended tragically with the death of a 17-year-old African-American male, Trayvon Martin.
I`ve lost two children of my own the last five years, so I can empathize with Sybrina and Tracy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like hearing these stories about the loss of your children, it breaks my heart, and it makes me wonder if George Zimmerman is finally the son you can protect here because you couldn`t protect the other ones --
PINSKY: Or himself. Or himself from prosecution.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
TAAFFE: You know what? That`s a very good point, and I do consider him like a son. He`s 29 years old. He`s the same age as the son I lost last August. So, yes, I`m going to protect him and I`m going to tell you right now on the air that, you know, I`ll take a bullet for that guy.
He`s not going to go down and I`m not going to let anybody hurt him or his brother, Robert, never.
PINSKY: OK, let`s leave it there.
TAAFFE: I promised him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s time for the behavior bureau. I`m back with co-host Jenny Hutt.
There you go, Jenny, Frank sort of gaining a little insight, coming into focus here why Frank behaves the way he does. But some of that defensiveness he has, we got a little insight into that, but that doesn`t change somebody`s personality, just having a little insight now, does it?
HUTT: No, it doesn`t, and I still have some issues with him, respectfully, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Good. Let`s get into it.
Samantha Schacher joins us. She`s the host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
We have clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
Criminal investigation Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
And Frank Taaffe -- or as Nancy calls him, just Taaffe -- George Zimmerman`s good friend and former neighbor.
Frank, I saw you talking French, in fact.
TAAFFE: Don`t you call me that. Only she can call me that.
PINSKY: OK, respectively.
I think you were responding to her in French. I think you said bon jour at one point.
TAAFFE: Qui monsieur. Qui.
PINSKY: All right. Let me talk about yesterday. Was that kind of an ah-hah moment for you?
TAAFFE: No, not really. I was just sharing with you my deepest feelings about the case. And you know, I keep getting painted that I`m trying to dehumanize that 17-year-old African-American male, Trayvon Benjamin Martin, and that`s the furthest thing from the truth.
It`s tragic. But you know what? We have to look at the facts and the evidence in this case.
And moving forward, you know what? The rest of America, you`re going to have to accept the fact that if Mr. Zimmerman walks free, which I still feel 100 percent confident that he will based on the evidence and the facts that you all are going to have to, I don`t know, you`re going to have to really accept it, and that`s what acceptance is.
PINSKY: All right, we`ll see.
Jenny, what do you want to say?
HUTT: Yes. OK, I saw -- Frank, I saw you earlier on Jane`s show talking about the pizza celebration dinner that you would like to have if there is an acquittal. And my issue is I think that you lack sensitivity with this whole thing. That I feel like you`re missing the point. And I don`t know how you could be because you`ve experienced --
TAAFFE: Here`s the deal.
HUTT: Let me -- can I finish speaking?
TAAFFE: This man --
HUTT: May I finish?
TAAFFE: You can, go ahead. Yes, make it quick.
HUTT: I just feel like you`re lacking sensitive -- I`m sorry? I feel like you`re lacking sensitivity to a family that has lost a son and I can`t imagine that you would do that or why you would do that when you`ve gone through losing two children. That`s all. It`s not a celebration, no matter what.
TAAFFE: Jenny, nobody`s taking a victory lap here, OK? No one`s going to take a victory lap, OK?
The bottom line is that for the last 17 months, the state of Florida has been maliciously prosecuting George Michael Zimmerman.
HUTT: I don`t agree with that.
TAAFFE: We`ve come to the crescendo. We`ve come to the climax of his case, OK? And you would agree that the prosecution has yet to clearly state how those wounds were on George`s head. That`s the elephant in the room --
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: There`s an elephant in the room and a hippo in the room. Tell me all he did was put on a witness, a hired gun, a Dr. Rao (ph) who said that the injuries were insignificant. Well, guess what? We came back with Dr. Di Maio, and guess what? He slam dunked it. And let`s not forget the facts and the evidence of this case. I still haven`t heard the state share how did he get the wounds? All they did was share --
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Hold on a second, Frank.
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: I want to hear it.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Frank. Frank, Frank, Frank. I`m not listening to anything you say. Last night, I listened to every single thing you said, and it was valid, but what you don`t understand is when you`re yelling right now, when you`re angry right now, no one wants to listen to you.
What happened to chillaxed Frank? I want chillaxed Frank to remain because I`ll actually listen to your point.
PINSKY: Hang on, Sam. Hold it. Danine, hang on. What about chillax? Danine, hold on. That was -- he says that was phony Frank, Danine?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: A lot of what I was saying last night about taking space and letting someone, you know, tell you their truth and lowering your tone and all of that. People can hear. When you can have a conversation that`s not so screaming and violence and yelling, people can have an exchange and they can hear each other.
But when one person starts yelling and screaming and talking over everybody else, everything is lost. So, I can see that now we`re going back to a place where there`s going to be no real communication or dialogue --
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: I believe that this has been the decorum since Jump Street. We`ve had a lot of people screaming and yelling that this was an unarmed teenager, merely walking home with some iced tea and some Skittles --
SCHACHER: Frank.
TAAFFE: -- and he was gunned down by this vigilante, wanna be cop. It`s over. It`s done.
SCHACHER: Frank, you can do better.
TAAFFE: It`s done.
SCHACHER: Can I finish what I initially was going to say, please?
PINSKY: I got to hold you, Sam. I`ll get you in a second, but I want to show a Twitter and I`m going to go to Cheryl. Let`s put this up. And Cheryl, this will be to your point, I think. Let`s put this Twitter up here. "Drew, does Frank know he has a microphone? Why is he yelling? Can`t stand him," et cetera, the usual stuff.
But here`s the deal. Cheryl, you made a nice assessment in the makeup booth with me and you said just because Frank has had -- we`ve had a little epiphany about Frank doesn`t mean his personality has changed necessarily.
CHERYL ARUTT, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right. He had a breakthrough, but not a personality transplant. And I appreciate that, Frank, that you listened and you realize, Dr. Drew is somebody --
TAAFFE: Hey --
ARUTT: Wait, wait. Dr. Drew is somebody whose heart opens when people show vulnerability, and I think everybody`s heart opens when we show vulnerability. And you really expressed yourself in a way last night where people were letting you in and taking you in with an open heart. And I wish that you could take that and use that --
TAAFFE: Well, that`s great.
ARUTT: -- going forward.
TAAFFE: It`s wonderful.
ARUTT: But you know, a lot of this other stuff pushes people away and makes them want to shut down.
PINSKY: Sam, finish.
SCHACHER: Yes. Really quickly --
TAAFFE: I am what I am.
SCHACHER: -- I think that we can do better. Frank, but we can do better. You can do better. We can have respectable debates, arguments without injecting inflammatory commentary, without making yourself look bad.
TAAFFE: OK.
SCHACHER: And at the end of the day, we are a reflection of what`s going on in this nation!
TAAFFE: You say that. I don`t think I look bad. That`s your version.
SCHACHER: OK.
TAAFFE: My version is I don`t think I`m bad.
SCHACHER: OK. I`ll throw myself under the bus, too. I can do better, too. Let`s both be better.
TAAFFE: Don`t judge me.
SCHACHER: Let`s both do better.
TAAFFE: Don`t judge me.
SCHACHER: Let`s both do better.
PINSKY: But it`s funny, Frank, how you always jump to people judging you when they react, too. No one I don`t think here judges you or thinks ill of you, interestingly. We`re not judging.
TAAFFE: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Frank.
TAAFFE: You know what? Until I got on here, we`re balancing out this "Behavior Bureau," OK? Everything was pro-Trayvon --
SCHACHER: Let`s do better.
TAAFFE: -- before I got here. All right. Let`s move forward here.
PINSKY: We will. We got to take a break, though.
Now, I want to proposed a thought experiment. What if Frank`s good friend had been Trayvon instead of Zimmerman? "Behavior Bureau" looks at that question when we come back.
And later, if you were a juror, would your mind be made up already? We have the Dr. Drew jury to comment on that from the courtroom after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only person currently that we can gain information from that specifically can address the event that unfolded away from the calls and away from the one person is Mr. Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tried to sit up, and that`s when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The human mind likes to fill in the blanks.
TAAFFE: He became the aggressor, the thug that he was. He went MMA style on top of George.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what?
TAAFFE: And he started pounding George`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a natural human thing that we see something, and if we don`t understand it, we will -- the creative side of our brains will help us fill it in.
MANETTE: But I think Trayvon is the only person who believes that he was probably killed as a result of a botched robbery, kidnapping or rape.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau." Frank, to pose this to you, what if it had been Trayvon that had been your friend and neighbor? Would you be as vehemently a supporter?
TAAFFE: You know, first of all, I don`t have friends like Trayvon. They don`t go around beating up people in the middle of the night, and they certainly don`t sucker punch him in the corner, darkest part and --
PINSKY: I think, Frank, you`re getting a little unfair. It`s unfair.
TAAFFE: No, no.
PINSKY: We don`t know that`s what happened.
TAAFFE: No, I`m totally fair. I don`t -- are you kidding me? The evidence and the witnesses have already testified under oath!
PINSKY: Sucker punch?
TAAFFE: I can`t believe you say that!
PINSKY: Sucker punch?
TAAFFE: Of course! That`s according to Zimmerman`s statement to the police. And let me remind you that George gave four statements to the police without a lawyer, OK? Without a lawyer. How many guys you know would do that?
PINSKY: All right. Danine, you said that Trayvon, perhaps, died -- may have died feeling that he was a part of a botched robbery or something that was going on in that neighborhood that he stepped in the middle of. Why do you say that?
TAAFFE: Bogus.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We don`t know that.
MANETTE: Everybody knows what happened. I`m talking. Everybody knows what happened to some degree, but he`s the person that, really, I think doesn`t really know what happened.
And I want to change up the scenario as far as not Trayvon living next door to Frank, but what if Trayvon was a female, Trayvona, and she was the same age, she`d been suspended from school, she`d smoked a little weed, she was walking home, 16, 17 years old, tall and thin, and somebody was behind her and the same scenario played out? Would we still be looking at this case the same if it was a female?
So, maybe it`s not a Black-White thing. Maybe it`s a male thing. Maybe we have a difficult time seeing young black males as victims in anything. Maybe if we changed it to a female, we would look at the case differently. I`m just wondering.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you agree with that?
TAAFFE: I`m going to answer that. Let me answer that.
PINSKY: Frank, you`re next.
ARUTT: You`re not Cheryl.
TAAFFE: If that was a female --
ARUTT: Wait a second. Frank, hold on just a second. You know, this really brings to mind -- we fill in the blanks based upon our own frame of reference based upon our own life experience.
PINSKY: Yes.
ARUTT: There was a woman, there were two women having an argument in a women`s studies class about whether they were more the same because of both being women or more different because of race. And at a certain point, the Black woman said to the White woman, "when you look in the mirror, what do you see?" And the White woman said, "I see a woman."
And the black woman said, "Exactly. I see a Black woman." That awareness is always there. And the person who wrote about this was a White man in the class, Michael Kimmel, who`s a men`s studies expert.
TAAFFE: Can I talk now, please?
ARUTT: Hold on one second. He said "I realized when I look in the mirror, I see generic human. Race and gender don`t even register because we`re blinded to the ways that we`re privileged."
PINSKY: Interesting. Frank, go.
TAAFFE: Well, that sounds premier. If that was a Black female, you know what? Guess what? She would have ran home --
ARUTT: Or any female, any color.
TAAFFE: -- and would have been safe. And you know what? You women got it over the guys there. You would have gone to safety. You would not have circled back and engage somebody you don`t know. You guys would have been smart enough to book it home to safety! We`re the dummies. We`re the ones that go back and want to fight people, OK?
PINSKY: And yet, Danine -- hang on, Frank.
TAAFFE: We got testosterone.
PINSKY: But Danine says, she had something like this happened to her and if she had a weapon and this guy had gotten near enough, she would have turned on him and tried to kill him.
ARUTT: She wouldn`t show a stalker where she lives.
SCHACHER: Exactly.
MANETTE: No. I`m not going to run home so he`ll follow me home and know where I live. I wasn`t going to do that.
SCHACHER: And Frank, I don`t think -- listen, it`s not so much about Trayvon and George. At the end of the day, if Trayvon Martin would still be alive today --
TAAFFE: Here are the facts.
SCHACHER: Can I talk, please? Can I talk, please, Frank?
TAAFFE: Yes. Go ahead.
SCHACHER: At the end of the day, if George Zimmerman would have stayed in his car and not gotten out of his car, because I don`t buy -- I`m just going to say this. If he would have stayed in his car and not had a loaded weapon on him, I don`t care that he had a license concealed weapon permit. I don`t care.
At the end of the day, if he didn`t have a loaded weapon with the safety off and a bullet in the chamber, Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old, was still be alive to pursue all of his dreams and goals today.
PINSKY: Everybody hold. Frank, I`m going to give you the stage. Take us home.
TAAFFE: OK. Three things you said are extremely erroneous, OK? The weapon did have a safety. It was built into the trigger. If you know anything about weapons, that Kel Tec 9 did have a safety. Secondly, there`s no law about getting out of your truck!
And third, all he was doing was acting as the eyes and ears of our community. He was even asked by the 911 dispatcher, who`s not law enforcement, let`s get off that train, and I`m going to tell you --
SCHACHER: Common sense. Common sense.
TAAFFE: Common sense? He was looking for an address --
SCHACHER: Conversation.
TAAFFE: Listen. If you listen to the 911 -- please, listen to the 911 call --
SCHACHER: I did.
TAAFFE: -- when the dispatcher asked him, do you want to meet the police? He said, "yes." He said, "I don`t want to give out my address."
MANETTE: Frank, would you support him if he killed a girl? Would you support him if he had killed a girl? If it was a girl, would you support your friend?
TAAFFE: Let me finish my story. Let me finish my statement.
PINSKY: Finish and we`ve got go. We`re against the clock.
TAAFFE: He was compliant and complicit. He says I can`t see him. What does that mean to you, Superman?
SCHACHER: Why are you yelling?
TAAFFE: Can you see in the dark
PINSKY: OK. Everybody, here we go.
TAAFFE: I`m tired of this. I`m tired of this story.
PINSKY: Frank, loved the insight last night, but your character comes right on through tonight again. You`re all back.
TAAFFE: Thank you.
PINSKY: And -- yes.
TAAFFE: Good (ph) to hear.
PINSKY: Well done, everybody. Thanks for hanging in there with this.
Next up, it is time for the report card.
And later, one of my jurors in the Casey Anthony case is here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re on live television right now, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those of us that are dedicated to the truth, those cameras are here. That`s not why I`m here. Just this morning, I let -- I texted my friends to let them know that I would be testifying here today. Mr. Zimmerman was described as being a very nice person but not the fighter. He wasn`t physically trained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t know what was in his head, do you? And you would agree with me that someone in the defendant`s position had other options?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would disagree with you, sir. Anything is possible. That doesn`t make it plausible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me what`s not plausible about this. When somebody`s over me at any angle, I can always make it 90 degrees, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not how you shoot. I`m not trying to say it`s not possible, it`s just highly unlikely.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back. My co-host is Jenny Hutt and it is time for our "Trial Report Card." Handing out the grades this evening, Attorneys Mark Eiglarsh who`s had a relapse in his old tie knot style evidently and Darren Kavinoky, and radio host, Brian Copeland.
Defense witness and law enforcement expert, Dennis Root, was raked over the calls by the state today. How did he do for the defense? I want you all to tell me how you thought he did but hold the grades until after I hear from you. Start with Mark and his new old tie.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: There was no reason to call him. It was my mother who told me when I was young, quit while you`re ahead. They`re ahead. They didn`t need to call him. And exactly the reason why I don`t call witnesses like this when I`m ahead is exactly what occurred. The fear was there. The prosecution then made him their own witness. I think both sides scored points. I can`t say anyone got a clear victory, but I think it was a big mistake, period.
PINSKY: Brian.
BRIAN COPELAND, TALK RADIO HOST, AUTHOR: Well, I`ll tell you, I do like the wuss (ph) defense. That`s what I`m going to call it. George Zimmerman was not the aggressor because of the wuss defense, he wasn`t a fighter. I think that Mr. Root did help the defense as well as helped the prosecution. But overall, the problem is, it`s like if he tried to volunteer for jury duty, they won`t take you because you may have an agenda.
And the fact that he inserted himself into this trial, you know, makes anything that comes out of his mouth suspect.
PINSKY: Darren?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Yes. Just to amplify that, the biased that comes out because he sought this case out. He might as well have just said, look, I`m a media whore. I`m trying to build my name, and if he would have just said that, he might have had some credibility! But instead, he was just dancing around, so he loses on that.
But what was good and where he actually did score some points for the defense is he helped to further the defense narrative. Remember, he came in as a use of force expert, and he is testifying to everything! He`s a martial arts expert, he`s this expert. There was a lot there.
PINSKY: Jenny, your thought and then grade. Go.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: OK. I kind of think he did have credibility because he did kind of admit to being a media whore. He did say he was texting his friends to let them know he was on TV. He wasn`t pretending he didn`t know the cameras were there. So, I agree with Mark that it was sort of just -- it`s a "C." I say "C."
PINSKY: "C" from jenny. She gives him a straight up, what`s that, a 2.0, 2.5?
EIGLARSH: 2.0.
PINSKY: 2.0. Darren, what is your grade?
KAVINOKY: Yes. I cheated off of Jenny. I give him a "C," too.
PINSKY: Fair enough. You`re a cheater and a media whore. Anyway --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: So, Brian --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: So, Brian, what`s going on? Grade.
COPELAND: Two things. First of all, I want to give him a "C," and secondly, I can`t wait to see the Chuck Norris/Peewee Herman cage match --
PINSKY: I was telling my producers, guys, I want Peewee in here, Mark, before you give me the grade. Don`t you think we ought to hear from him?
EIGLARSH: Sure, sure.
PINSKY: That`s right.
EIGLARSH: Listen, I didn`t speak to any of these three. It`s amazing that we all came up with the same grade. I picked the "C." There were positive things, negative things. Right in the middle, we`ll give him "C." Yes.
PINSKY: That`s never happened before in the history of our report carding that you guys are all in agreement. The critics agree, it`s a "C." Thank you, guys. Really good. Very interesting.
Next up, my jury`s been away for a while, but it is back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: And we are back with Dr. Drew`s Jurors. Yes, it`s back. Welcome back, Jenny Hutt as my co-host, Mark Eiglarsh and Darren Kavinoky join us. Now, Brett Schulman, we met him back at the Casey Anthony trial. We nicknamed him Barney Fife because he would make order out of the chaos in the early-morning hours when people were waiting in line to get into that courtroom.
Now, he`s at the George Zimmerman trial. So, Brett, what`s the procedure like this time to get into the courtroom and what is the feeling in that courtroom as compared to, say, Casey?
BRETT SCHULMAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, once again, it`s chaos, but in a different way, Dr. Drew. Basically, what you have to do is go down to the elections office, wait in line with a ton of people, fill out a piece of paper and hope they pick your number, which never happens.
PINSKY: So, it`s a lottery, basically?
SCHULMAN: It is a lottery. And there`s only 24 seats, so good luck with that one.
PINSKY: All right. I want to give my panel a chance to talk to you. Darren, what do you want to ask Brett?
KAVINOKY: Well, this case has obviously surfaced a lot of racial issues. From what you`re seeing, is this jury going to be able to set those aside and just focus on the facts of this case or how`s that going to bleed in?
SCHULMAN: Well, I truly believe that, yes, it is racially motivated, it`s politically motivated, it`s a social nightmare out there right now, but basically, a lot of people are slowing down, relaxing a little bit, understanding and hearing all the facts of the case, because I truly believe there are mistakes made on both sides of the fence, and it was just a really, really bad situation for both parties involved.
PINSKY: Mark, what do you got?
SCHULMAN: But once again, this is the state of Florida.
PINSKY: Yes, indeed. Mark?
EIGLARSH: Brett, I was down there for the second day of the trial. I actually got into the courtroom. And I was surprised at how few people were outside. I thought there`d be a sea of people protesting. Has that picked up? Are there more people out there with signs and megaphones or something like that?
SCHULMAN: Believe it or not, negative. There are hardly anybody out there. As a matter of fact, it`s probably, I would say, 30 or 40 network individuals out there compared to maybe one or two or three people at the most. I`m sure once we get to deliberation, it`s going to pick up a lot and it`s going to get a little bit more chaotic.
But for right now, I believe the people of this fine city of Sanford just want to hear the facts of the case.
PINSKY: Jenny, I`m against the clock, got about 15 seconds.
HUTT: OK. Just want to know, has your perspective changed on what happened throughout this case?
SCHULMAN: Well, in the beginning, I was really a Trayvon Martin supporter. I really believed and really felt bad about the situation of a 17-year-old child being involved in a murder situation. But if we really look at the evidence, he was in a bad situation.
But, then again, I really also believe in the final analysis that Zimmerman, on his own behalf, did some unscrupulous things that he should not have done and he should not have gotten out of that vehicle and basically went after Trayvon Martin. So, both sides are playing out.
PINSKY: Got to go. Thank you, Deputy Fife. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Well, Jenny, thanks for being part of such a quiet, civil show tonight.
HUTT: Oh, yes. I just have to say that I thought that Brett was really eloquent in how he described having one feeling and then it shifting as opposed to Frank, who I feel like referring to the deceased, Trayvon Martin, as a thug is just -- it`s just lacks elegance and I find it disappointing.
PINSKY: I`ll see you tomorrow. I`ll see you all tomorrow, hopefully. And a reminder, "HLN After Dark" now.
END
