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Zimmerman Jury Deliberates His Fate; Examining the Jury's Options

Aired July 12, 2013 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": The jury in the George Zimmerman murder trial has the case now.

Let's go sort of inside what they are considering, what the ramifications of their decisions will be.

Let's bring in Ryan Smith, our HLN anchor who is also an attorney.

Ryan, so they Don't actually know -- as they consider whether this is second-degree murder, manslaughter or he is not guilty, they Don't know the sentences that accompany their decisions.

RYAN SMITH, ANCHOR, HLN "AFTER DARK": That's right. They have no idea about the sentences.

We like to keep it that way in the law because we Don't want people to be influenced by that and say, well, I would love to give him this, but I Don't want to see him go to jail for that long, or I'm not going to give this because it just doesn't seem right.

You want them to base it on the facts in the law. They have no idea what the sentences are.

What's interesting about this is, second-degree murder carries 25-to- life, mandatory 25 with a firearm. Manslaughter carries around 10-to- 30. They could have some overlap there.

Then the judge can always downward depart from those sentences if she sees a way to do that. We'll have to wait and see. But they have no idea what the penalties are. Just the law and the evidence.

KEILAR: So they've had to consider of this idea of if a gun was used. Obviously, we know that a gun was used.

Explain that. Part of this has to do with mandatory minimum gun sentences there in Florida.

SMITH: That's right. They're part of the gun laws here.

The idea -- a lot of this comes from a lot of the gun crime that has increased really all over the country.

In Florida what they try to do is address that by saying if you have certain crimes that are committed with guns, we want to add on certain penalties, in certain cases add on mandatory penalties. That kind of raises the ante.

We're not just -- hopefully, I think the idea is deterrent a little bit. Whether that works or not is debatable.

That's what sets in some of these mandatory, for example, for second- degree with a firearm, also that higher sentence for manslaughter if a gun is used.

KEILAR: That's right. It was a controversial, law, I believe, when it was enacted by Jeb Bush. Use a gun and you are Done.

Ryan Smith, HLN anchor working this trial, thank you for that.

Of course, one of the things I think people are wondering now that the jury has the trial, how long are they going to deliberate? Is it going to be hours? Is it going to be days? Could it be going on more than a week?

So let's bring in now Richard Gabriel. He is a jury consultant. And, you know, when you take a look at these high profile cases, you can certainly understand why it takes so long.

You know, it took Jodi Arias' jury, Richard, about 15 hours to convict her in the first-degree murder of her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander. Casey Anthony's trial took jurors 10 hours, 40 minutes to acquit.

Conrad Murray, nine hours to convict him in the involuntary manslaughter of Michael Jackson. Scott Peterson, jurors took a whopping seven days to convict him of two murders. Jurors in the O.J. Simpson murder trial took under four hours to acquit him in 1995.

One thing of note, all of these juries had 12 members. There are just six in the George Zimmerman trial.

Is this going to make a difference, Richard?

RICHARD GABRIEL, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, it can make a difference, but it really depends on the individual personalities of the jurors, how much evidence they go through, how comprehensive they are, and also if there are divisions that emerge.

he thing that I also want to make sure everybody understands -- we talk about the process, and I've been involved in a lot of high- profile cases where there's been unpopular verdicts.

We really need to respect the jury's verdict in this case. We can disagree with whatever verdict they give. We need to respect it because they have a tremendous amount of pressure being put on them to do the right thing in this case.

The interesting part about this is that the prosecution and the defense have both staked out very clear pictures of what they think happened. And the truth is that jurors, it's more like a jigsaw puzzle to them in which they are taking pieces from both the prosecution case and the defense case and creating their own composite picture.

So it may not be this depraved mind that the prosecution is saying. It may not be this Trayvon armed with a block of concrete that the defense says.

But they may try and put this composite picture together. That may take some real time as they try and fit all these tiny jigsaw pieces together to arrive at what they think happened here.

KEILAR: And how do they do this? Are they going through these pages and pages of instructions that we heard judge nelson reading out? Do they kind of go through that as a checklist, generally?

GABRIEL: Well, they typically do it a couple different ways. One is they can sometimes spend even days saying, let's divide up the evidence, and go, let's take a look at the forensic evidence. Let's take a look at the 911 calls. Let's take a look at the eyewitness evidence.

They parse those out and go through those, and they debate each of those particular pieces of evidence separately.

They can sit there and say, let's go through the jury instructions and make sure we know legally what we're supposed to be doing and how to follow those guidelines.

Sometimes -- again, this is -- tends to happen when you have quicker verdicts. They go, let's go to the first question. Let's see where everybody's at and see if we're in uniformity about that. That can determine it.

So there's a number of different paths this jury can take, but more importantly, I think they really do want to take some time because they realize that this is an important decision.

KEILAR: Certainly.

Richard Gabriel, thank you so much for your insight on that.

And coming up after the break, you know, one of the things that certainly a jury consultant like Richard can tell you is it really matters what a jury hears last before they deliberated.

Today it was a very powerful, emotional rebuttal closing argument by the prosecution.

We'll talk about that, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The jury in the George Zimmerman trial now behind closed doors, deliberating, considering his fate as we expect them to do, possibly for some time to come. The last thing they heard before those jury instructions was a rebuttal, a rebuttal closing argument from the attorneys for the state, the prosecution. Here's part of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR: This case is not about race. It's about right and wrong. It's that simple.

And let me suggest to you how you know that for sure.

Ask yourselves, all things being equal, if the roles were reversed and it was 28-year-old George Zimmerman walking home in the rain with a hoodie on to protect himself from the rain, walking through that neighborhood, and a 17-year-old driving around in a car who called the police, who had hate in their heart, hate in their mouth, hate in their actions, and if it was Trayvon Martin who had shot and killed George Zimmerman, what would your verdict be?

That's how you know it's not about race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to bring in Trent Copeland. He is a defense attorney.

And, Trent, if you're sitting there, put yourself in this role. If you're the defense attorney and you're listening to the prosecution give that argument, it's the last thing really of substance besides the jury instructions that the jury hears, are you concerned that it's effective?

TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Of course I'm concerned because, look, it's the last thing the jury is going to hear. It's going to resonate with the jurors when they go back in that room.

What I'm also hoping is that the jury is going to take back one of the instructions that the court gives them. That is you can't decide this case on emotion and anger. You have to look at the facts of this case.

Remember, when it was the defense's turn to present their closing statement, they dissected the evidence almost with the tactical precision of a doctor dissecting an going through a surgeon's heart. They really went through every piece of evidence.

By contrast, it was the prosecutor that was asking this jury to use their emotion, to use their passion, to respond in a passionate way, to essentially not like George Zimmerman. And that's a problem.

And, essentially, they're asking this jury, the prosecution is, for the jury to simply say, look, ignore the evidence. Ignore what you've seen.

We know that it was George Zimmerman that put all of this in motion, and it was George Zimmerman that started the confrontation. Ignore the problems that we have in our case, but look at the facts. Use your common sense as mothers, as daughters, as people who want to feel for this family.

There's no question that's going to resonate with this jury, but I can't say that it really is going to carry the day, nor it should.

KEILAR: Let's bring in Tanya Miller.

You actually sort of thought this was a really intriguing device. That this was something that may have really worked.

TANYA MILLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think what John Guy was doing was really interesting here because what he doesn't want this jury to do is go back there and be divided, right?

And the issue of race and the role that race plays in this case or might play in this case is a divisive issue, so he's telling this jury, look, this case isn't about race.

This is about what's right and wrong, and I thought that that was very smart for him to do.

But, look, what he also did very subtly, he also said, now, let's not be divided about race. Let's make this a question about what's right or wrong.

But I want you to just think for a second. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you really struggle the way that the defense is arguing you should struggle about what happened here?

Would you have the sort of doubts about self-defense that the defense wants you to have now? I thought it was very effective.

KEILAR: He gives them in a way a mental device, if race is playing an issue, if, for instance, they identify more with George Zimmerman than Trayvon Martin or the witnesses for George Zimmerman than for Trayvon Martin, that they can maybe perhaps use this device to dismiss that in their judgment.

MILLER: Exactly. He does that so smoothly and so effectively without making race the divisive issue that we kind of see it playing out as on the outside of the jury room.

KEILAR: Tanya Miller, thank you very much.

And we'll be right back after a quick break. We'll have much more analysis ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Now, we have just learned that President Obama will call Russian President Vladimir Putin today, this as NSA leaker Edward Snowden requests a temporary stay in Russia.

We now have brand-new video of Snowden. He's been holed up in a Moscow airport for weeks now.

You can see him here. He's meeting with human rights activists and attorneys.

Today is the first time that we have seen him in Russia. Snowden said today that the United States is persecuting him.

He asked for assistance in safe passage to one of the many Latin American countries that have offered him asylum, and he's asking for temporary asylum in Russia until he can make that trip.

Well, the president's losing a cornerstone of his White House cabinet. Janet Napolitano, secretary of Homeland Security, is taking a job in academia.

She told associates in an e-mail that she will leave in September to head the university system of California.

In a statement, President Obama lauded Napolitano for leading the recovery from Superstorm Sandy, for dealing with immigration issues and for preventing terrorism. There's no word yet on her successor.

And we now know more about the cockpit recordings from the Asiana flight that crashed in San Francisco last weekend. It killed two teen girls, injured more than 180 people.

Two pilots called for the landing to be aborted before the Boeing 777 hit a seawall at the end of the runway. The first call came three seconds before the crash. It was followed immediately by another call to abort.

CNN has also confirmed that one of the two victims was, indeed, run over by a fire truck in the crash aftermath. We still do not know whether she was alive at the time that she was run over.

The fuselage from the crash is now being moved off of the runway. That runway is expected to reopen this weekend on Sunday.

And up next, as the jury deliberates in the George Zimmerman trial, his lawyer, Mark O'Mara, just revealed what he thought of his client when he met him. The answer may surprise you.

We have Don Lemon and Mark Nejame, joining me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: George Zimmerman's guilt is no doubt at the heart of this trial, but one thing that may no longer be at issue is that Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin, as prosecutors contended yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: What started this? Assumptions, incorrect assumptions, on the part of one individual.

And, again, that's the last photograph we have of Trayvon Martin. This innocent 17-year-old kid was profiled as a criminal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Profiled as a criminal.

Let's go now to Don Lemon and Mark Nejame. They are in Sanford, Florida.

How important is the jury's determination on this in determining the verdict?

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They couldn't say the words racial profiling in this particular case, but I think most people get it.

To say that profiling isn't a part of most people's lives, I think that wouldn't be fair to say that because most people profile, but race is certainly front and center in this particular case.

And at the beginning when this got national media coverage, it was about racial profiling.

And I do have to say that there is -- I have been watching people's reaction to this, Mark, watching the people who I work with, people who are in restaurants and bars, what have you, their reaction to the court case.

And depending on your particular lens is what you think about whether Trayvon Martin was profiled or not, what you think about George Zimmerman, and whether or not the prosecution or defense are both making points, it depends on your particular lens as well, doesn't it?

MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.

LEMON: So I think it's very interesting because recently I did a panel. We did a whole thing on the "N"-word, and I asked some people, you know, African-American men on the panel, had you been profiled before? Had you been followed?

And every single African-American man or man of color to a point said, yes, and every single Caucasian man who's sitting there, white guy, said, no, it's never happened to me.

NEJAME: And we talked about it, Don. You said it so eloquently.

I got a true education. I was making a comment on some social media, Twitter or Facebook, and I commented how I thought the evidence was lacking.

And I got attacked by many people by being biased, and somebody even suggested racism just because I had a legal opinion.

And I was really dumbfounded by it and a friend of mine got a bit upset with me, great guy, smart, intelligent ...

LEMON: Black guy?

NEJAME: Black guy, Ray Francis. My daughter had her first crush on his son, my youngest daughter.

And so Greg educated me. And the other day you and I talked about it.

You know, if we could talk about harassment in the workplace for women, you and I might really be passionate about it, but not being women, we can only go so far.

And I came to realize how symbolic this case is for so many, and they -- so many people, cross-culture, but primarily African-Americans, but cross-culture, have held onto this case because it represents the fact that there still is bigotry, there still is prejudice and although things have gotten better, the fight is not over.

And so when people first -- many people have their first impressions in this case, they don't want to let it go because it has become so symbolic.

LEMON: What they're arguing about is what happened in the moments when Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, what the case is really about, legally, what happened in those moments when there was a confrontation, the fight and the gunshot.

But what most people cannot understand is why someone would follow this young man, seemingly innocent young man who was not armed, and most people feel that in some way he was profiled. And so any man of color can understand that.

I told you my experiences, recently. You can understand -- and maybe this a class thing. When I'm in the airport and someone says, oh, this is not the first class. You have to go this way.

I said, no, I happen to be flying first class today, and you're automatically assuming, and everyone -- all the white guys are going around me and they won't let me through.

And I have to tell them and show them, I'm going, I should be in this line. But just little things like that. Even outside of my home that -- where I lived for a long time in Georgia, I was the only African- American on my block and seemingly in my immediate neighborhood.

If someone had stopped me in front of my very nice home and my very nice car and said to me, what are you doing here? I would be incredulous.

I would say, what the hell are you doing here? I live here, I pay taxes, that's my house, I belong here, you get out of my face.

And I would imagine there might be some sort of confrontation between me and that person.

NEJAME: And that's been the misunderstanding that has separated and caused so many people to go in polar extremes because some simply cannot empathize or understand that and it still exists.

You know, I've been a defense lawyer for my career. I've fought the fight forever. I know that young African-American men get profiled every single day, whether it's simply being followed in a store, whether it's disparate treatment with law enforcement, whatever it might be, whether it's not being waited on first in a restaurant when you got there first. It still happens.

Now, with that said, is this the case that would define the civil rights issues that we still have to address?

LEMON: Mark O'Mara says he understands that probably more than most, but he said, George Zimmerman, this is not the case. You should take George Zimmerman out of your crosshairs.

NEJAME: And that becomes the issue when you're dealing with legal analysis versus social analysis. Too many people confuse the two.

LEMON: And we should -- just by talking like this, we are not racist. This is a conversation we should be having.

NEJAME: Anything but.

LEMON: We're back with more coverage after this from Sanford.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Within the past few minutes, the United States government has called for the release of Mohamed Morsy, the overthrown leader of Egypt.

The appeal by the State Department came as a throng of Morsy supporters assembled in Cairo, calling for his release and his reinstatement as president.

The State Department said Morsy's detention is political, and it also called for the release of his top lieutenants.

I'm Brianna Keilar. Thanks for watching.

"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts now.