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Dr. Drew
Zimmerman Verdict Reactions
Aired July 17, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): What if Trayvon Martin were white and George Zimmerman black? This provocative image has everyone talking, including the behavior bureau.
Would this be happening now if the races had been reversed?
Plus, I will speak exclusively to the trial witness who swore that it was Trayvon heard screaming on the 911 call. She`s here and she is angry.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, we have an exclusive with a witness who heard, in her point of view, Trayvon Martin yelling for help, not George Zimmerman. This is her first interview and she would tell us why she thinks the jurors got it all wrong. First, what`s next for George Zimmerman? What`s next for our country?
Take a look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANGELA COREY, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: This isn`t about race, gender, age, who takes the bullet or who fires the bullet. It`s about the law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is it so hard for us to talk about race in America? Why are we afraid of it?
There is a hole in the soul of black America --
PINSKY: OK, I want --
DON WEST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At considerable risk, let me say, I`d like to tell you a little joke. I know how that may sound a bit weird in this context. Here`s how it goes.
Knock, knock. Who`s there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? All right, good, you`re on the jury.
PINSKY: The opinions of Juror B-37 expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own.
MARK O`MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If they had not put the statements in, then we would have had George testify.
REPORTER: Have you ever experienced this before, Bernie, during a trial, during a case, what was going on between this defense team and you guys?
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, PROSECUTOR: You know, I`ve been doing this over 30 years, No. And I`ve had some tough cases.
ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S BROTHER: I don`t know that he`ll carry a gun. I would think that he has more reason to now than before.
REPORTER: George Zimmerman carrying a gun again.
DE LA RIONDA: I`m a firm believer in the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: There you go.
On the panel tonight, attorney Mike Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com, HLN`s very own Jane Velez- Mitchell, whose show airs at 7:00 Eastern Monday through Friday, and social commentator Shahrazad Ali, author of "The Blackwoman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackman."
Jane, welcome to the program. Are we afraid to talk about race? And if so, why?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: I don`t think we`re afraid. I think it`s very complicated. It`s not a black-and-white issue anymore. We are a melting pot, and hallelujah. That`s a wonderful thing. And I speak as a Puerto Rican-Irish woman, OK? So, my mom`s Puerto Rican, my dad was Irish.
And if you take a look at George Zimmerman, he is also a melting pot. He is non-Hispanic white on his father`s side. He`s Peruvian, on his mother`s side. That is not a race -- Hispanic is not a race. It`s an ethnicity. You can be any race if you`re Hispanic. So, his mother could have Spanish influences from Spain, she can have (INAUDIBLE) influences, she can have African influences. All that is wonderful, and if you Google it, you`ll hear all sorts of debate over that issue.
But it`s not a black-and-white issue anymore. It`s much more nuances than that, Dr. Drew!
PINSKY: Jane, I agree and I think, Ms. Ali, I`ll go to you in a second, but, Crystal, I think you would agree, but yet, this triggers something in African-Americans.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSUMERBLACKCHICK.COM: Yes, I`m going to disagree with what Jane is saying.
PINSKY: All right, fair enough.
WRIGHT: Because the reality is, we are afraid to talk about race, specifically how race and crime intersect and the fact that in this country, we can`t have a rational dialogue about the fact that more black men, period, are committing crimes, more black men are being incarcerated than any other race.
This is what nobody wants to talk about, because if a white person talks about it or myself, I`m called a racist and a white person is called racist. I`m called a coon, Uncle Tom and a sellout.
In New York City, blacks represent 25 percent of the population. And you know how many of the shooting suspects they represent? Nearly 80 percent.
That`s why they are stopped and frisked at a higher rate. Nobody wants to talk about these facts.
PINSKY: Well, Crystal, you`re talking about it. Ms. Ali, respond to it, without calling names at Crystal. Respond.
(LAUGHTER)
WRIGHT: That will be hard.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Incapable.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think --
WRIGHT: Thank you, Mark.
ALI: -- race -- I think that race is a difficult topic because the guilty people are always more uncomfortable. But you know, it`s not going to be that difficult pretty soon because in less than 40 years, the white population in America are going to be the minority. See, integration works socially and almost every other white girl I run into got a black baby.
So, we`re getting ready to have a whole nation of brown and biracial people, so the whites won`t be the majority anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, hold on, I have to ask, will that be the end of these feelings or will all that trauma you carry in your heart continue to trouble you?
ALI: No, it won`t be the end of the feelings. I probably won`t be alive. And it won`t carry on like that in the same way because, ultimately, since this voting thing is supposed to be it, those people who are brown in America will be able to, you know, vote out some of those old, white guys that`s holding on to the old Jim Crow laws and practicing all the secret racism.
WRIGHT: Well, I want to know, I want to ask Shahrazad, what is a white woman having a black baby have to do with anything? I mean, Barack Obama is a product of a mixed --
PINSKY: I think what she`s saying -- go ahead, Ms. Ali.
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: I would argue that if we don`t address the fact that --
ALI: You would argue anything.
WRIGHT: Let me just say -- can I finish my thought? What I`m saying --
ALI: You have already said it.
WRIGHT: -- if we don`t address the destruction of the black family, we`re going to have more black men incarcerated because their fathers are missing in action when it comes to the black family.
ALI: Oh, please --
WRIGHT: Seventy-three percent of all black babies are born out of wedlock.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One at a time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What we have is a system that incarcerates more people than any other system in the world. We have behind bars in America more people than the populations of some eastern European nations. And there is --
ALI: I agree.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- disproportionately African-American males who are put in prison and to often nonviolent drug offenses.
WRIGHT: That`s not true! That is not true!
PINSKY: Crystal, hold on, quiet. Mark`s been quiet, playing fair in the sand box. Go ahead, Mark.
WRIGHT: Mark, is that true?
PINSKY: Is that true?
EIGLARSH: All right, first of all, let me say I`m so glad that we`re having this dialogue, whether it`s because of George Zimmerman that it triggers this discussion, wonderful. But this isn`t anything new. I`m in the trenches every day of the criminal justice system, which seems to be a reflection of society.
And you`ve got cops who are influenced by color. You`ve got cops who are influenced by their prejudices. You`ve got prosecutors and judges who are judging. I don`t think it`s any different than society. I`m glad we`re having this dialogue. To some extent, what it`s about is raising everyone`s level of awareness, because all of this stems from ignorance.
And so, if we could just have a dialogue, continue to talk about it, that`s a wonderful thing that comes from this tragedy.
PINSKY: Sam, you haven`t had a chance to speak yet.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, well, I do think that the dialogue is existing in America. But it`s not existing on TV. People are afraid to talk about it on TV because they`re afraid that people are going to find them offensive, and we need to break down that stigma.
PINSKY: And Ms. Ali raised her hand. I want to reward her for behaving properly. Go ahead, Ms. Ali.
ALI: What I was saying also is that he`s right about the prison system, or she`s right, I think, somebody said it there. They`re right about the prison system.
In fact, states are selling their prisons to private companies, and part of the contract is that they have to guarantee the purchaser of 95 percent occupancy rate. So, that`s why they`re getting all of that 95 percent of the population.
WRIGHT: Oh, come on.
ALI: They`re getting it from our poor, black men, and I`m really against that. And that`s not about no feelings, it`s about usually money.
PINSKY: OK, Mark --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s called the prison industrial complex! It`s called the prison industrial complex! And it`s money-making and it`s a bureaucracy that wants to feed on itself.
WRIGHT: Oh, come on. Jane, you are being so --
EIGLARSH: Can I respond, please?
WRIGHT: Can I just -- I have one quick thing to say on what Mark said.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
WRIGHT: I have one thing to say. Mark is right. We`re not confronting the truth and facts. I agree with you, but it`s uncomfortable to talk about this problem facing black Americans. As Samantha were saying, we don`t want to talk about it in a caring way in a thoughtful way, because the facts are not pretty. They`re very ugly. They`ve been going on for 40 years or more, and we have to do something to stem really this genocide and destruction of the black family, guys.
PINSKY: Mark. Hang on, Crystal. Hang on one second. Mark`s been being nice.
EIGLARSH: Hang on. First of all, Crystal, I don`t know if I could ever yield to you. That wasn`t brief.
And secondly, let me just say this. If what all of you are saying is actually true, and if, somehow, we are packing the prisons with African- Americans, then way to go, jury, for not lowering the burden in this case. Because if we lowered the burden to maybe he`s guilty or 100 percent he`s probably guilty, then for the next person and everyone for 200 years, we have a lower burden of proof, which makes it a lot easier to get at whoever the prosecutor wants to get at.
PINSKY: Jane, I`m against the clock. Wrap it up, 20 seconds.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What we need to do is take all the money that we`re putting into the prison industrial complex and put it into early childhood education.
WRIGHT: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: To proactively prevent crime. You know what? You can`t take credit for a crime that hasn`t been committed, and that`s the problem. People would rather spend millions prosecuting a crime than stopping a crime from happening in the first place by educating kids and giving them opportunities to have careers.
PINSKY: I want to --
WRIGHT: Kids need parents. Kids need parents, guys.
PINSKY: Parents and intact families. That`s why we have families --
WRIGHT: Intact, thank you. Yes.
PINSKY: We have families because it`s healthy for kids. That`s why the human beings form families because they are adaptive to the wellbeing and needs and upbringing, bringing children successfully into a productive adulthood. We have to (INAUDIBLE).
And, Ms. Ali, thank you for bringing up the melting pot issue and sort of in the caboose there, which is because we are becoming a melting pot of sort genetically. It`s hard to tell who`s who anymore, but I think these issues are still going to plague us.
ALI: That`s right.
PINSKY: I`ve got to go to break.
The trial put this woman in the spotlight. Her critics put her under the microscope. Of course, I`m talking about Rachel Jeantel. She talks about her life after the trial.
And later, she says she heard Trayvon crying for help, then gunshots. How does she feel now that Zimmerman`s a free man? We`ll have her with us after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: Some of my friends went to the wake and they had said, they had said, his body was dead, that his body is dead. He dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Why didn`t you go to the wake or to the funeral?
JEANTEL: I didn`t want to see the body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
Rachel Jeantel made it clear she did not want to be on that stand, she did not intend to be in the middle of all this, but her role was much bigger than she had ever expected.
Jane, your thoughts on Rachel Jeantel, both on the stand and on Piers last night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think she`s a very smart, very clever young woman. And I think she captivated the audience on Piers, the folks sitting around. She was -- she was clever. She was insightful.
I think she has emotional intelligence and I think she has other intelligence. She`s sharp. Her difficulty communicating on the witness stand is something else entirely. I don`t know if anybody`s ever been a witness, but it`s terrifying. I was a witness as a teenager because I was hit by a car. And it`s absolutely terrifying.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s tough to be on that stand. And I can imagine being a high school -- see, she looks older than she is. That`s a high school student on the stand there. That`s a heck of a burden.
Rachel appeared on "Nancy Grace" last hour. Vinnie Politan asked if there was anything she wishes he could have told the jury. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: Trayvon was a teenager, was a child, was somebody, friend, family, not dumb (ph) at all. And to them, they think Trayvon is an adult. Trayvon is not an adult.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, what are your thoughts?
ALI: Well, I think she`s a lovely young woman. She may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but she certainly knew what happened to Trayvon that night, and she was able to, you know, explain that. And the jurors looked at the young black woman like that and they make up all kind of ideas about, you know, what her educational level is or what they are intelligence level is. She wasn`t there for that.
This is how many of us present. And as I say, if anybody has anything to say about the fact that she seemed unintelligent, she is a product of the American educational system, and most of our children are dumb as hell. That`s not new.
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: OK, let`s assume that it was someone else who gave the same testimony as ms. Jeantel, and let`s say they said the same as her, and that is, why are you following me to Zimmerman, and then that person said, I heard a bump.
I`m not sure, regardless of who delivers that message, who`s going to think -- well, that means that Zimmerman bumps into Trayvon? It`s way too subjective, because you`re dealing with someone who`s on a telephone. The bump could have come, or that sound could have come from many different ways.
I don`t know that even if she was believed completely that it would have changed the outcome in this case, because of the lack of evidence.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She heard Trayvon say "get off me," though.
PINSKY: Crystal?
WRIGHT: Well, I think -- Jane, you`re right.
EIGLARSH: Which version, though?
WRIGHT: Rachel Jeantel is a smart -- she`s a smart girl, but what confuses me is, she had enough decorum on these media interviews to be calm, and you know, a lot of people would argue, Dr. Drew, that it`s scary being on live television.
So, I think Rachel knew very well what she was engaging in when she disrespected the court. And I think that that second day she came back and she was much calmer in the court, I think friends or family said, Rachel, you`re looking like a fool on national television, you need to show more respect.
And as far as Ms. Shahrazad said, this is how many of us present, I don`t know if she`s talking about black people, but I don`t -- black people don`t go in a court of law and present themselves the way Rachel Jeantel did. It was a total disrespect and she came off as not credible.
ALI: You don`t know what black people do.
PINSKY: Samantha.
SCHACHER: Let`s remember --
WRIGHT: I know, you`re the ambassador of blacks. I got it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Samantha -- hey, hey, ladies.
SCHACHER: Let`s remember, though, that Rachel also had nine hours of deposition with don west and had been talking with him and not too pleasant conversation since March. So, let`s take that into consideration as well.
WRIGHT: That`s still not an excuse.
PINSKY: And on "NANCY GRACE", Vinnie Politan asked Rachel to respond to what Juror B-37 said about her that she was not credible or truthful as a witness. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: If you were placed in my shoes and that happened to you, and you have a grown attorney attacking you and you were out in the media, would you feel comfortable in my place?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, a chance to respond here.
ALI: Well, it`s very difficult for any black person to sit in a room full of 99 percent of white people and be able to, you know, maintain your composure and answer questions. The only reason I`m not scared of y`all is because I have the truth. But it`s very difficult to sit up around a bunch of white people and be able to talk and explain yourself, because y`all put so much pressure on us, 24-hour stress. That`s what we live in this country. It affects our vascular system --
WRIGHT: OK, right.
ALI: It affects our renal system, our nerves. It`s very difficult for us to be here.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali -- hang on a second --
WRIGHT: Since I`m a black person --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: You`ll get a chance here. Crystal`s next, then Mark. But, Ms. Ali, I don`t stress you out. Come on, now. You`re part of the family here.
You`re stressing me out. I heard a rumor you`re not going to be with us tomorrow. That`s stressing my out! My coronaries are hardening --
ALI: This is my last night --
PINSKY: Come on, now. You`re speaking for a lot of people. This is it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t go.
ALI: This is my last night, but I`ll still be talking. I was talking before I got here.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Crystal, you go.
WRIGHT: OK, yes. Dr. Drew, I mean, I`m another black person on this panel, and you just allowed Shahrazad go off on this rant that all black people are afraid of white people, afraid to be in rooms with white people.
Now, Shahrazad, come on, you`re better than that. You`re really --
ALI: You`re not afraid because you want to be white.
WRIGHT: No, I wake up every morning and I`m naturally black like you, sweetie. We`re black women together, so I think it`s time for you to --
ALI: And you`re disappointed.
WRIGHT: I`m sorry you`re disappointed, but stop lumping us all in a black box and calling us cookies and things like that. That`s really bad.
PINSKY: Don`t even open that door.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I say something?
PINSKY: Jane, take it home again. I`m against the clock again.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: An environmental crisis that is going to bring us all together as earthlings, because we are destroying our planet. And once we realize --
PINSKY: We`ll bond together.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- that the rising seas, we will come together as earthlings --
PINSKY: Mark, I`m sorry. Jane, I have to stop you. Mark, I promised you a second go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what we need!
EIGLARSH: I just -- it`s hard for me to help contribute to the solution when Ms. Ali comes up with some of those remarks, which are entirely divisive. I just can`t.
PINSKY: Next, they may be -- thank you, panel -- the most outspoken, controversial guests to appear, Ms. Ali, Frank Taaffe together again in the next block.
And later, what if the races had been reversed would it have gone this far?
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI: Every history book in this country is a lie. Everything that has been written about who did what --
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: She lied. She`s a liar! She lies!
ALI: -- who invented what is a lie. We do not get recognition or credit for anything we have contributed to this country --
TAAFFE: It`s the 13th Amendment --
ALI: S, don`t talk about the lies because y`all are the biggest liars on the planet.
TAAFFE: Trayvon was going back to whoop the (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you stop interviewing for a FOX gig for a second and let somebody else talk?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For us to label people and race bait, I have a problem with that! It should be the soul of America who is hurting because Trayvon represents all of our children, black children and white children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Love the way Penny said that. My co-host, of course, Samantha Schacher, and our panel.
Joining us now is George Zimmerman`s friend, outspoken supporter, you know him as Frank Taaffe. Nancy knows him just as Taaffe.
And attorney and Sirius XM Radio host Jenny Hutt. She joins us as well.
Things got heated on the show last night on the show. Emotions are still running high. But, Ms. Ali and Frank, you two, I need to be able to hear you guys, our viewers need to be able to hear you, so please, don`t go on top of each other, all right?
Start that as a ground rule, everybody?
TAAFFE: I`ll try.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali?
TAAFFE: Yes, I`ll try.
ALI: Maybe. Maybe.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, I give you the floor first. Do you have anything you`d like to say as a follow-on to last night?
ALI: Well, I think that sometimes when you`re trying to get a point out, it gets a little excited, and I know sometimes I get a little excited. But I`m really trying to explain something. I always try to come out and defend black men. They are the original man, the maker, the owner, the cream of the planet earth, God of the universe.
We have a good man, but a lot of times in the media, the black man is always set up to be the worst guy on the earth and be bad, and he`s not bad. He`s good.
PINSKY: OK. Now --
TAAFFE: But here, I`ve got something for you.
PINSKY: Frank --
TAAFFE: I`ve got you something tonight, OK?
PINSKY: Please don`t say anything derogatory, Frank.
TAAFFE: Take a chew on this.
PINSKY: Frank, do you hear me?
TAAFFE: No, no, no, I`ve got a fact here.
PINSKY: OK, but I --
TAAFFE: Crystal brought it up earlier in the show --
PINSKY: But, Frank, it doesn`t make certain --
TAAFFE: That we really need to --
PINSKY: You`re going to talk about the black-on-black violence? What are you going to talk about? I want to know what it is first before you go there. Your wording.
TAAFFE: No, she brought up a case about the family values, the core family.
PINSKY: OK, go. OK.
TAAFFE: That today in American society, three out of every four African-American babies are born out of wedlock, and it was a very valid point that she made.
PINSKY: OK, I want to bring Crystal back.
TAAFFE: And it goes back to, you know, we talk about incarceration --
PINSKY: Yes?
TAAFFE: -- and the fact that according to the FBI, African-Americans make up 12 percent of our population, yet 50 percent of all violent crimes are committed by young black males, and that`s a fact, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: OK, Frank.
TAAFFE: And it all --
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: That`s what y`all say.
TAAFFE: -- interwoven with the facts of the poor family.
SCHACHER: Instead of using facts to further each other`s points --
TAAFFE: No, that`s what the FBI said.
SCHACHER: I`m not saying it`s not a fact.
TAAFFE: I didn`t say it!
SCHACHER: Frank, I`m not saying it`s not a fact. Instead of using facts to further each other`s points, and isn`t it ignorant for me to say that why can`t we try to better ourselves and look past all this racial tension and try to come up with a better America, a more evolved America?
PINSKY: Well, because --
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: I can answer that for you, Crystal. Crystal, I`m going to answer it for you.
PINSKY: I want crystal to respond -- hang on.
TAAFFE: Every time we`ve reached across the aisle --
PINSKY: Hang on, Frank. I want to have Crystal respond to this. And, Crystal, I`m going to frame it in a way that maybe Ms. Ali will even like. Ms. Ali carries in her heart the trauma of 400 years. Is it possible that`s being transmitted still through these family systems? And if so, how do we heal that?
Because what Frank is saying, you would probably agree with factually. I would say as a clinician, that`s a problem that needs to be healed, not even so much a social problem. I see it as an issue of trauma and family systems. You tell me, Crystal.
WRIGHT: OK, yes, I agree with a lot of what you said, Dr. Drew. I think there are two things, and I agree with what Samantha said and Frank, and I agree with everybody tonight on some point.
We need to look at each other as individuals, Shahrazad, and we also need to look at -- like Frank said -- the ills that are dragging down black Americans.
And, Dr. Drew, I don`t think it`s emotional. I think we need to call it what it is. We need to encourage young, black men to get married and take responsibility for the love of their life, because we`re all products of parents, I guarantee you. Shahrazad, Frank, Samantha, Dr. Drew and me.
PINSKY: OK, got to interrupt.
WRIGHT: And if we`re not products of parents, we learned along the way because people told us that certain behavior was not acceptable.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
WRIGHT: So, it`s not acceptable, like Frank said, to have out of wedlock births. It`s just not.
PINSKY: Got it. Jenny, you`ve been doing jumping jacks. Hang on, Frank.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: -- because I feel like nobody really listens to one another. So, the first thing that Miss Ali had said was that Black men are good men. I kind of feel like, if Frank had just said, listen, Miss Ali, you`re right, Black men are inherently good men, just like all men are inherently good men. It would have a whole different tone --
FRANK TAAFFE, ZIMMERMAN DEFENDER: Yes, I agree.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR No, they`re not. All men are not good.
HUTT: This behavior that recognizes what --
TAAFFE: O.J. wasn`t.
HUTT: -- anyone is saying, I feel like.
(LAUGHTER)
HUTT: And to crystal`s point, frankly, emotions are often at the root and the base of everything we as human beings do.
PINSKY: Yes, yes. Miss Ali, go ahead.
HUTT: You can`t deny that.
PINSKY: I agree, jenny. Miss Ali.
ALI: Yes. Well, I think we have to look at the root of the problem of our broken families. If somebody`s ancestors had not drug us here, destroyed our families, tore our babies from our breasts, destroyed our men, and even today, if you want to have the Black man so bad --
TAAFFE: Hey, let it go, let it go --
ALI: -- level the playing field and allow him to compete for a job.
TAAFFE: Let it go, man.
PINSKY: OK, Frank.
TAAFFE: Open the heart and let the peace and healing start --
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: Y`all don`t have no peace and healing!
PINSKY: Frank, how do we do that? Frank, I want to give you, you of all people, give us some way that people can do that. It`s not like hey, a magic wand and people feel traumas go away. How do we -- it`s a very complex issue, frank, so how do you do it?
TAAFFE: OK. Acceptance is the answer today to all our problems, Dr. Drew. And, we`ve got to realize we, as human beings, we have no control over other people, places, or things. So, if we accept what`s right --
ALI: Oh, yes, you do.
TAAFFE: -- in us first, we might start accepting what`s right in other people.
PINSKY: OK. I think -- Miss Ali, he said something profound. Again, the delivery, you might miss it if you`re not careful, but he said accountability for what`s in our own hearts first. Do you agree with that, Miss Ali?
ALI: Well, I`m not in total disagreement with that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I know that.
ALI: You always want to shut us out --
PINSKY: I don`t want to shut you out, Miss Ali. I want you to come back tomorrow!
(CROSSTALK)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Miss Ali, what do you need to heal? Miss Ali, what do you need to heal and start giving people more of the benefit of the doubt that`s not just from the Black community? What do you need to heal?
ALI: Well, first of all, there is no benefit and doubt. Doubt creates suspicion and distrust, so I don`t know who made that up about the benefit of the doubt. There`s no benefit of the doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: Here`s the solution. I`m going to give you the solution.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s all listen.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Ali first, then Frank, you`re going to take me home. Go ahead, Miss Ali. The solution.
ALI: The solution to the problem, the solution to the problem between Black and White in America, and it`s not going to be one that anybody likes, the solution is separation. We`re going to have to separate. We can`t get along in peace.
SCHACHER: Oh, wow.
PINSKY: Miss Ali, you`re breaking my heart. You`re breaking my heart.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Frank, take me home. I hope.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Frank?
WRIGHT: Martin Luther King died for us to realize the promise of equality. Martin Luther King died --
ALI: Martin Luther King didn`t die for that. Martin Luther King died because one of y`all killed him.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Easy, Frank. Take us home.
TAAFFE: OK, I`ll be gentle.
PINSKY: Thank you.
TAAFFE: Miss Ali, don`t set us back 400 years, OK? You know, it`s one day at a time here, OK, as we all trudge the road towards happy destiny. Amen.
PINSKY: You`re using some interesting language, Frank. We`ll have to talk later, I`m just saying. But another thing, Miss Ali, I remind you, you said in 40 years, we`re going to be genetically all so diverse we`re not going to know who`s us and who`s them anymore. We started this conversation there.
ALI: That`s right.
PINSKY: So, I think separating us, I`m not sure. That just breaks my heart. Thank you, panel.
Next up, we have a DR. DREW exclusive. She testified that she heard Trayvon crying for help. What does she say now after the verdict?
And later, if Black George Zimmerman had seen a White Trayvon Martin that night, what might have happened? "Behavior Bureau" addresses that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAYNE SURDYKA, ZIMMERMAN`S FORMER NEIGHBOR: Oh, my god! I see someone killed laying on the grass. Oh, my God! I want to know what happened. Why would this man just shoot him? It`s right outside my window. I mean, like two feet away from me. Oh, my God, why would somebody kill someone like that? I can`t look. I mean, the officer`s shining the light on the person. He killed someone! Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, God!
I mean, they`re looking at the person that`s dead. (CRYING)
Well, in my opinion, I truly believe, especially the second yell for help that was like, you know, a yelp. It was excruciating. I really felt like it was a boy`s voice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Jayne Surdyka was in her apartment when she heard the cries for help the night Trayvon martin was killed. She is here speaking for the first time since she swore on the stand that it was the teen, himself, heard yelling on her 911 call.
Joining us also is Jane`s attorney, Derek Brett, and we also have attorney, Jenny Hutt and Mark Eiglarsh. Jane, let me just ask sort of general question here, how has this trial affected you, let`s say, emotionally and your life?
SURDYKA: Well, I can say it`s affected me in every way. You know, going through that, something you would never dream of looking out your window and seeing someone be murdered. The anxiety, how I go through it in my mind. You know, I look at it this way -- every day I look outside my living room, if I go upstairs and I`m in my bedroom, I`m looking out at that courtyard.
And every time I look out there, I`m thinking there was, you know, the dead teenager laying right there on the ground.
PINSKY: And I`m sure you`ve sort of thought this through in your own mind a hundred times and other people have asked you, but what makes you sure it was Trayvon`s voice?
SURDYKA: Well, like I said, to hear it on the tape I think that many people have, but actually being right there in person, having that window open, having them ten feet from my window. I mean, I taught physical education in school. You know, I`ve heard young boys` voices, and there wasn`t a doubt in my mind that that was a teenage boy that`s yelling for his, you know, his last words, "help."
PINSKY: Mark, you have a question.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes, Jayne, I`m sorry that you had to go through this, but I have a question for you. You know, I always argue with jurors, tell them that there`s a difference between believability and accuracy.
I have no doubt that you believe and will to your dying day that that was Trayvon yelling, but did you watch Jonathan Good`s testimony, who was equally certain that it was the person on the bottom, Zimmerman, yelling for help, or else if it was Trayvon, it would have been boomeranging off the building. So, he was certain.
And then about seven or eight more people from Zimmerman`s side said it was Trayvon. Do you have any concerns about your belief at this point?
SURDYKA: No, I don`t. I think it`s maybe just --
(CROSSTALK)
DEREK BRETT, ATTORNEY FOR JAYNE SURDYKA: Dr. Drew, can I cut in here?
PINSKY: I don`t know who that is.
SURDYKA: Go ahead.
PINSKY: Derek, is that you.
SURDYKA: That`s Derek.
BRETT: Drew?
PINSKY: Derek, yes please.
BRETT: Drew, this is Derek.
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.
BRETT: Let me say this, this is not the forum to actually second guess this woman`s thoughts, perceptions, and emotions.
EIGLARSH: I asked her a question. What are you speaking --
BRETT: Regardless of whether or not -- excuse me. Excuse me.
EIGLARSH: Wait, wait, wait. Why are you talking? I asked her a question. I asked her a fair question --
BRETT: -- on that evening. There`ve been enough -- there`s been enough finger-pointing in this entire episode. She has --
EIGLARSH: No one`s pointing a finger at her.
BRETT: Don West and Mark O`Mara --
EIGLARSH: She doesn`t need your protection.
BRETT: -- did an artful job of --
PINSKY: all right. OK. Let`s move on.
BRETT: You know what? Apparently, she does.
PINSKY: We`ll get off that. That`s fine. We`ll get off that issue. Jayne, did the not guilty verdict surprise you?
SURDYKA: Does it surprise me?
EIGLARSH: What was that?
PINSKY: Did it surprise you?
SURDYKA: Yes, and the reason would be, you know, I just think of a young teenager going to the store and walking home, and he never made it home. You know, that`s how I kind of look at the whole case.
PINSKY: Yes, sad. It`s just so sad when you just put it in those basic terms. Samantha, you have a question for Jane?
SCHACHER: First of all, thank you so much for being here, Jane.
SURDYKA: You`re welcome.
SCHACHER: My question to you is how has your neighborhood changed? Do you still live in that same neighborhood?
PINSKY: Good question.
SURDYKA: I do, and like I said, you know, every day, my view out of my living room and bedroom is to look out at that courtyard, and it`s just so hard to forget that, you know, that`s where he had died. It`s very quiet right now. I mean, I have to say, the Sanford police have been great in, you know, coming there and making sure that there`s not any trouble, which is really the opposite of the way it was in the very beginning.
(CROSSTALK)
SURDYKA: And that`s why I had to get Derek. And Derek, maybe you could tell the people just how horrible it was and getting notes on my door and that, so forth.
PINSKY: You`re welcome to do so, Derek, if you need to.
HUTT: So, my question also --
(CROSSTALK)
BRETT: This was quite a traumatic experience from the get-go when Jayne first contacted me. This was -- the trauma was already there. And we heard it in the dispatch recording. But since the dispatch recording, since Jayne contacted me in April of last year and all the way through to the present day, the trauma persists.
You as a psychotherapist understand how long-lasting this type of episode is. And unlike maybe some in our society, Jayne`s not desensitized to violence, violence occurring right in front of her on that particular evening. This continues to afflict her. Her coming on here today is almost a catharsis.
She`s already been thrust into the limelight, so she felt the need to actually come on to your show, express herself as a means of building toward, just like many others who are involved in this case, building toward healing.
PINSKY: Mark.
EIGLARSH Yes, I have a question, Jayne. Were you aware of George Zimmerman being the neighborhood watch guy and were you OK with that in light of all the burglaries and other crimes affecting the neighborhood?
SURDYKA: At that point, I had lived there four years, and I used to maybe in the beginning go to the meetings, but I didn`t after that. I had never met him, had no idea who were the neighborhood watch people. You know, like, if I had seen him walking in the neighborhood, I would wonder who he was, because I had no idea that he was somebody that was, you know, summoned to watch our neighborhood, so, I wouldn`t know.
PINSKY: Well, Jayne, thank you for being here. We do appreciate it. We certainly do not want to amplify or revivify this trauma for you. I hope this is hopeful to speak out. I`m an internist, not a psychotherapist, but be that as it may, I hope this is an experience that will help you rather than hurt you.
Thank you, guys. Next up, if Trayvon Martin had been White and George Zimmerman black, would it ever have come to this? That is coming up on the "Behavior Bureau."
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the our on "HLN After Dark," you know Ryan, I just spoke with Rachel Jeantel on "The Nancy Grace Show," and we`ve got to show it to our jury tonight.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right, because the bold question tonight, is Rachel right? Our 12 members of our in-studio jury and also our six ladies up front, just like in the Zimmerman trial, have a very tough question to answer tonight.
POLITAN: It`s always good to have six ladies in the front row, right?
SMITH: Exactly.
POLITAN: That`s coming up top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for the "Behavior Bureau." Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. What if Trayvon had been White, George Black? Take a look at this photo illustration that has gone viral. Would things have been different if this were, in fact, the case? Joining us, forensic clinical psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, psychologist, Brenda Wade, author of "Power Choices," Miss Ali returns, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part."
Miss Ali, you`ve been talking about this all along. Would it have made a difference? I hope you saw that picture.
ALI: I have, and I`m not sure if that would have made a difference. It would have still depended upon that particular community. Was that an all-Black community? Was it an all-White? Was it a mixed community? See, Black men have always been feared in this country. It`s something that has been made up. You talk about mythology, now, that`s a myth that he`s somebody to be afraid of.
And our men don`t need head start. And I`m not against children. Our men need equal opportunity in the business and marketplace. They need to be able to excel in something more than the NFL and the NBA.
PINSKY: OK.
ALI: They need other work opportunities.
PINSKY: All right. Brenda.
ALI: Until they get that, we`re going to continue that --
PINSKY: Miss Ali, Brenda is nodding her head. Put that picture up if you could again. Now, I looked at that picture, Brenda, and I have a stranger (ph), I felt sympathy -- more sympathy for Zimmerman as a Black man. I had this weird reaction. I don`t know if anybody else felt that. But go ahead, Brenda, respond.
BRENDA WADE, PH.D., AUTHOR, "POWER CHOICES": Yes, You know, we`ve been talking, Drew, for quite a while now about racism and prejudice in America, and I want to say that I don`t think racism and prejudice are the problem. I think the problem is ignorance. It was Mahatma Gandhi that said prejudice is the bastard child of ignorance. So, I don`t want to beat up on the child.
I want to deal with the parent. The parent is ignorance. And I think we need to really examine our history, number one. The history explains why we`re still stuck today having these kinds of conversations. We also need to look, number two -- this is something I say over and over in all the classes and seminars I teach -- when we learn better, we do better. We have a lot to learn from this case.
PINSKY: Yes, we do, indeed. And Robi and Cheryl, I want you to respond across the commercial break. I`ve got to take a break. If you have a question for the "Behavior Bureau," go ahead and tweet us @DRDREWHLN, #behaviorbureau. Up with your response, Cheryl and Robi, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host. Robi and Cheryl, I wanted to give you guys a chance to respond to that photo. Robi, you first.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it was interesting. When I saw it, I was like, I certainly can see where people indulge in racial profiling, because we see so many crimes where they show Black people committing crimes that it somehow gets ensconced in our psyche, oh, it`s just another Black man committing a crime.
And I do think the answer is through education, because of course, that assumption is not accurate or fair, but it was a very powerful image. I thought it was quite brilliant, actually.
PINSKY: Cheryl.
CHERYL ARUTT, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with Robi that I think it was a powerful image. I think it was evocative and it could cause some people to really get in touch with their own feelings about would they feel differently? Would they feel more sympathy for one or the other if the races were reversed? But we need to remember just how painful this is and what an opportunity this is to really talk about these things, because we do tend to be blind to ways that we ourselves are privileged.
Privilege tends to be invisible, and discrimination tends to be painfully obvious to the people on the receiving end, but we don`t see it. I mean, even if you think like what color Band-Aids come in, you know, how many White people notice that it doesn`t match some people`s skin? I mean, these are simple kinds of things, but there are many, many things like this.
WADE: And this is a very important comment, because what you`re saying about privilege being invisible is part of the education.
PINSKY: I`ve got to interrupt because I`ve got 15 seconds. I want to give Miss Ali the last 15 seconds. Go. Fifteen seconds, Miss Ali.
ALI: Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Drew, for allowing me this opportunity to tell the truth about the condition of my people and what can be done to help us. And also, it`s not the color of Band-Aids that give us a problem, miss, it is the color of God. Why is God white when most of the people on the Earth is Black?
PINSKY: Thank you, ladies. I`ve got to go.
ALI: Answer that! That`s racism right there.
PINSKY: "Last Call" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Thank you, my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Thanks for getting my back and staying with me through this whole thing. I really appreciate it. Great job. Thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time. Can somebody tell me how much time I have left? Ten seconds. Samantha. I want to say, great job. Really. I -- this is a tough show to navigate and you stood there and had my back and I appreciate it.
SCHACHER: Absolutely.
PINSKY: "After Dark" starts right now.
END
