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Piers Morgan Live
Sports and Cheating
Aired August 05, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE, welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world.
Tonight, A-Rod strikes out. The Yankee slugger slapped with an historic 211 game suspension in a doping scandal that now includes 12 other players. A-Rod is playing tonight against the White Sox and lots to say but dodges questions about his use of performance- enhancing drugs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX RODRIGUEZ, NEW YORK YANKEE: I'm sure there's been mistakes made along the way. We're here now. I'm a human being. I have had two hip surgeries, I've had two knee surgeries, I'm fighting for my life. I have to defend myself. If I don't defend myself, no one else will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: By mistakes he means cheating, of course.
Also caught on tape, three teens brutally beat a boy on a school bus. Did the driver do enough to stop the vicious attack? He joins me live to explain himself. That's coming up.
Plus we're looking at Ariel Castro's house of horrors in Cleveland on Wednesday. The bank that owns it will tear it down. But what's next for the women he held captive for a decade? We'll talk to Jaycee Dugard's therapist.
And how's this for hope and strength? Gina DeJesus, smiling and waving to crowds at the city's Puerto Rican Day Parade.
We begin, though, with a day of reckoning for Alex Rodriguez who for the Yankees had a hit in his first time up at bat tonight.
With me, Christine Brennan, "USA Today's" sports columnist and outside the stadium in Chicago, CNN national correspondent Jason Carroll.
Jason, I'll begin with you. But what is the mood down there? Because you had this big day where he's facing the suspension. There he is, marching out as a Yankee. Getting ahead very pleased for him. But the guy is a cheat, isn't he? What is he doing there? JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, you get a hit, you normally get cheered. But that was not the case for Alex Rodriguez. You can hear boos echoing throughout the stadium. People calling him a liar, calling him a cheat, saying, you're everything that's wrong with baseball. This while he was all up at bat.
And Rodriguez basically expected to get some of that type of response, even before this game started, though.
You know, there were some fans who were out there, Piers, greeting him. He was signing autographs, but, you know, this has been a very emotionally trying time for Alex Rodriguez, that's what he said before the game got underway, when he was dealing with the press.
He did dodge questions when he was specifically asked more than once if he had used performance-enhancing drugs. He said he wanted this legal process to sort of play itself out. He wasn't going to talk about that now, but what he did talk about the emotional toll this has taken on him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODRIGUEZ: The last seven months has been a nightmare. It's been -- probably the worst time of my life for sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Jason, we know -- we know that --
CARROLL: Major League Baseball is not holding back --
(CROSSTALK)
CARROLL: Go ahead, Piers.
MORGAN: I mean, 12 other players have also been suspended today. Why is A-Rod being singled out for what seems to be special punishment?
CARROLL: Well, I think it's the nature of what Major League Baseball is alleging here. And when you look at the statement they released today for the first time you really get a sense of what's the type of evidence they have against him. And you can hear it in part of their statements. I can read part of it to you. It says that the suspension is based on his use and possession of numerous forms of prohibited performance enhancing substances, including testosterone and human growth hormone over the course of multiple years.
And in addition to that, Piers, the statement then goes on to say that Rodriguez attempted to cover up the violations and in addition to that, to obstruct their investigation. So you have to believe that that's why Rodriguez's punishment is so much stronger than the other dozen players are facing.
MORGAN: Jason Carroll, thank you very much, indeed. Even with today's announcement the saga is far from over. Rodriguez has of course vowed to continue his fight. But we're now going to talk to Christine Brennan.
Christine, I mean, isn't he just Lance Armstrong in a Yankee shirt, is it?
(LAUGHTER)
CHRISTINE BRENNAN, SPORTS COLUMNIST, USA TODAY: It's a great way to describe. Absolutely. Caught the same way, Piers, with documents and e-mails and evidence, not with a drug test. And a man who's lied continually, and now here he is, the ultimate disgrace for himself, really, in the long run and for the game and for kids watching, that here he is on the day that he receives the longest suspension of the baseball steroids era, A-Rod is now playing. Starting a game in Chicago.
And it's -- I have no sympathy for him, he's one of the worst cheats, probably one of the worst cheats ever in baseball in terms of steroids era and he deserves this long suspension that he got today.
MORGAN: See, what I can't understand, Christine, is what the hell he's doing walking out for the Yankees today. I can't understand why the process allows him to. I can't understand why the Yankees haven't just benched him. Where is their integrity in all of this?
BRENNAN: Well, the Yankees really didn't want him around as we know. There were hopes from the Yankees and from the stalwarts and commissioner's office and in Major League Baseball that he be kicked out for life.
But baseball owners, Piers, and the union are starting to get along, and that's what we saw with these other guys all taking their suspensions. A-Rod wouldn't go along with that, which is a shame, except you can understand it basically would be a lifetime ban. He'll be 40 in 2015 and that would be the time that he'd be coming back if he took this.
So this is purely ego, purely a man trying to make more money, understandable, from his end, although, again, I mean, he is such a terrible cheat. The volumes of evidence, and for those who might be saying, Piers, how do we know for sure? He was trying, as of yesterday, to broker a deal. If he didn't cheat, why would he be trying to broker a deal?
He didn't get his way, so now he gets to keep playing. But I agree, the Yankees could have sat him down and that's a shame that they didn't.
MORGAN: And, Christine, just talk about sport generally and cheating. Because we're seeing athletics riddled with cheats, a lot of sprinters recently exposed again for drugs. Some of the fastest men in the world. We've seen the baseball players now, we know. We've seen all sorts of cheats popping up in all sorts of different disciplines. The two sports we've seen moderately protected, golf and tennis, seemed they've got their act together. But why you can't the other sports and the authorities that run them do what is happening in tennis and golf?
BRENNAN: Actually, today, Piers, this is a great day for baseball. They're actually starting to do that. This drug bust of this proportion shows that. Baseball is so late to the party, the Olympic sports and -- that would be tennis, too. Golf actually has been very late to the game as well. And we're not sure they're catching all their cheaters.
But the Olympic sports, if you look at this, 1972, is when the Olympic Games started drug testing. And then it was 32 years later, 2004, when baseball, Major League Baseball started to really test its players. That's because mostly of the union, the baseball union, it's incredibly strong and I think it answers a lot of your questions.
The union has fought the owners tooth and nail. Finally the union is starting to see the validity of going with the good guys in baseball. Hopefully the majority who are still not taking drugs and get the bad guys, but for all these years the union has sided with the A-Rods of the world and the Ryan Brauns, and that has really pushed baseball back and makes it very late to getting into this -- into the steroid game in a big way.
MORGAN: Christine, stay with me. I want to bring in now Donny Deutsch to talk about, I guess, the branding, the reputational damage here, to A-Rod, to the Yankees, and to Major League Baseball.
What's your take on it?
DONNY DEUTSCH, CHAIRMAN, DEUTSCH INC.: All the above. First of all, as I watched him with all the sports figures, and all the people we've seen fall from grace, he is the most delusional and unappealing I have ever seen. To sit there and say he's fighting for his life. No, you're fighting for $100 million and you're fighting against the truth which, as Christine pointed out, it has been very well documented. This is not an innocent guy.
And to say that, you know, this is a nightmare, this is a man detached from reality. And, you know, as far as a Yankee fan, I don't want to see him in a baseball uniform. I was actually really disappointed in the Yankees. You know, this is also not a guy at the peak of his career. This is a guy who is coming off hip surgery.
MORGAN: And not even been playing that well. Right?
DEUTSCH: And has not been playing that well. And, you know, why the Yankees couldn't make a statement to their fans, and have them sit on the bench. So you want to come back to baseball, you're at the end of the bench.
So, I, as a guy, who's managed businesses, who watch corporations, am really, really shocked the way he behaved. MORGAN: I totally agree. And, Christine, I mean, obviously A- Rod was this wonder kid, he was going to be the great new future, ironically. He was going to come in to clean up the reputation of baseball after all the other cheats. And it turns out he's the biggest cheat of them all.
What happens now with baseball? You said they're cleaning it up, but A-Rod's done, dusting, gone, I guess, but now what? We have to trust again that the next wonder kid is going to be clean?
BRENNAN: I don't know that we can ever trust again. And that -- that is a shame. Piers. I think the bottom line is for any baseball fan who believes that this is over, that is just not the case. This is the beginning of the steroids era in baseball.
The Olympics, as we talked a few moments ago, Piers, the Olympics has a 32-year head start in terms of drug testing on Major League Baseball. And the Olympics still has a steroids problem and it's still catching cheaters.
So baseball fans, get used to it, batten down the hatches. This is going to be another three decades at least of this kind of thing because reality is there's more money, as Donny knows, of course. There's way more money in baseball --
MORGAN: Well, listen --
(CROSSTALK)
BRENNAN: -- than there is in the Olympic Games.
MORGAN: The problem, Donny, isn't it, it's big, big business now in all these sports, whether it's cycling or athletics or whether it's baseball, whatever. To me, the only way you deal with this properly is you say right, first offense, you're out for two years, whatever it is, you do it again, as A-Rod has done. Lifetime ban, mandatory. It's all over.
DEUTSCH: It's not a baseball problem, it's a culture problem. We have the biggest hedge fund right now being indicted for insider trading. We have teachers who fake kids' scores so they can make more money on their bonuses. We have kids taking SAT classes for their kids. We have the media that lionizes criminals and cheating whether it's "Breaking Bad", whether it's "The Sopranos," and we are a culture now -- I don't want to say celebrates breaking the rules, but certainly does not look down on it.
And we act shocked when -- whether it's baseball, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's teaching. And I -- we have become a nation -- I don't want to say this blanketly, but where cheating is somewhat -- as long as you don't get caught, it's OK.
MORGAN: Right. And so, Christine, I've had a lot of people say to me, about A-Rod, people that like baseball, the trouble is, it's more fun when they hit big homeruns. That's why we like Maguire, Bonds and A-Rod, is they may be taking drugs, but they whack it out of the park. Well, you know, once you're into that mindset, anything goes, doesn't it?
BRENNAN: And yes, that is true. It's an unfortunate mindset. I think most of the nation showed when they turned on Lance Armstrong overnight. Millions of people did back on January that there is another side to that story. But it's really about the kids. We have a steroid epidemic in terms of high school kids and boys and girls, girl athletes as well as boy athletes, in this country. 1.5 million kids, according to the Hooton Foundation.
Wonderful foundation, people should look up their Web site. 1.5 million kids on steroids in this country. Where do they get the idea to do it? From the A-Rods of the world. And that's why we absolutely, in my mind, have to keep trying to catch these guys.
MORGAN: I completely agree. I have three teenage sons, and they respond to what these sporting heroes do, they copy them, they embrace the ethos --
DEUTSCH: Well, you know, that's not --
MORGAN: -- and the culture. Now this guy, I want to show you the front page, Donny, of the "New York Post." You would have seen this this morning.
DEUTSCH: Yes.
MORGAN: This is what I think, just go.
DEUTSCH: By the way, if you talk to 95 percent of New Yorkers they would say the same thing. And I also don't believe the average kid is just completely swayed by an athlete. Parents have the ability to step in. But this guy, this is a despicable guy. This is a guy -- I mean, I don't want to go too far on this because obviously he didn't kill anybody, but this is a guy who is just a liar again and again and again.
The ultimate non-teammate, because he's disgracing that uniform.
MORGAN: Right.
DEUTSCH: And I really shame on the Yankees, shame on the Yankees. That guy made a statement. He did not have to be out there tonight.
MORGAN: I completely agree. The Yankees should have shown integrity and benched him tonight. And he shouldn't be playing again.
It's over for you, A-Rod, as it was for Lance Armstrong. Cheats cannot be allowed to prosper.
Christine Brennan, unfortunately, you and I, I'm sure, will talk about another sport, another great athletic legend maybe, or whatever it may, football legend, and it will go on until the authorities slap down such monstrous fines and punishments that these guys don't want to do it anymore.
Christine and Donny, thank you both very much.
BRENNAN: Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Sad day for sport again.
Coming next, caught on tape. A violent attack on a school bus, three boys reigning down, blows another child. But did the drive do enough to stop it? Well, I'll talk to him, the bus driver, that's coming next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Breaking news tonight out of Pennsylvania. A gunman has killed two people and wounded at least four others at a town hall meeting. It happened in Saylorsburg, which is about 75 miles north of Philadelphia. Authorities say the shooting erupted about 7:30 p.m. The suspect is in custody, but no word on a motive.
Now to the vicious attack on a Florida school bus that was caught on tape. Three teens brutally beating a young boy, the driver calls the dispatcher asking for help. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JOHN MOODY, BUS DRIVER: You got to get somebody out here, quick, quick, quick. They're about to beat this boy to death. Please get somebody here quick. And they're still doing it. There's nothing I can do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: What the driver didn't do is step in and stop the attack, and many people believe he should have intervened. The boy was left with a broken arm. He's lucky his injuries weren't far worse. Joining me now in his first live interview is the bus driver, John Moody, along with his attorney, Frank McDermott. Welcome to both of you.
Mr. Moody, it's a horrible video to watch. I'm sure it's a horrible thing for you to observe as THE bus driver. For those of you who think you should have intervened and done something to help the boy physically, what is your response?
MOODY: Well, my response to that is, it's been policy that bus drivers do not jump in the middle of a fight. And me jumping in the middle of that fight with three boys, it would have been more dangerous for other students on the bus as far as myself. It's just no telling what might have happened.
MORGAN: Right. I mean, I hope you don't mind me saying, you're 64 years old, and these were three pretty strapping 15-year-old teenagers all clearly with a propensity for quite extreme violence. And so when I saw it, I understood completely why you wouldn't want to get involved.
Do you believe with hindsight you could have done anything else than what you did? MOODY: In hindsight, I followed policy. I radioed in, got on the dispatchers. It was so noisy on the bus, they could barely hear me and I could barely hear them. But we finally got help out, and it was just one of those things that it just happened, shouldn't have happened, but it happened.
MORGAN: How do you feel personally, when you look at this video again. And it's so awful. Do you feel any sense of guilt or responsibility, notwithstanding the rules, obviously. And notwithstanding the fact that at 64, you shouldn't be expected to jump in? But how do you feel personally about what happened?
MOODY: I took it really personal. I had many sleepless nights, I had nightmares, couldn't sleep, it was just terrible. Looking at that, it was like I was looking at a bad dream. And it was just -- I'm feeling it now, it's just a terrible thing to watch that happen.
MORGAN: There is a comment here from the Gulfport police chief, Robert Vincent, which I want to play.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT VINCENT, GULFPORT POLICE CHIEF: There was clearly an opportunity for him to intervene and/or check on the welfare of the children in -- or the child in this case, and he didn't make any effort to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: What is your reaction to what the police chief said there?
MOODY: Well, I - I didn't want to move the kid. I didn't want to move him because he might have been injured, and I was trying my best to get some help out there on the radio. As far as moving the kid, intervening, I just -- I couldn't do it. Couldn't move him.
MORGAN: But there seems, Mr. Moody, to be a lot of attention on you and your supposed inaction. Not enough attention, in my view, on these three horrible little thugs who were doing the beating up. Do you feel that the attention is skewed here in the wrong place? Should we be focusing on what these three little barbarians did?
MOODY: Well, I think it's more on me because I didn't do what people thought I should have done.
MORGAN: But do you feel that's fair. Is that fair that you're getting all the flack when these kids, these thugs, are seen on camera trying to kill this kid?
MOODY: I don't think it's fair, no.
FRANK MCDERMOTT, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN MOODY: Not fair.
MOODY: Not fair.
MORGAN: Yes, Mr. McDermott, you're the attorney for Mr. Moody.
MCDERMOTT: Yes, sir.
MORGAN: It does seem to be an odd disparity, although they've been caught, these kids, and they've been charged and so on. All the attention today is on what your client supposedly didn't do. In my view, there's not enough attention on what these thugs were doing.
MCDERMOTT: Well, that and also, I mean, what could he have done? I invite the Gulfport Police Chief to give us a re-enactment of what could have done. Children would have been put in huge danger had he tried to physically intervene. Policy says don't touch a child, and he acted calmly, in a very stressful situation by calling dispatch.
And a lot of attention needs to go to the administrators at this school, who were aware of the situation. Mr. Moody was blind to what was going on, these three -- two of these individuals, two of the attackers had tried to sell this victim drugs. The victim told school authorities, and it was a pressure cooker there, which Mr. Moody had no way of knowing, and school officials let these two boys back on the bus -- or let them on the bus. And Mr. Moody had no idea what happened at the school. And like I said, it was a pressure cooker, and there nothing he could have done. He followed school policy.
MORGAN: All right, Mr. Moody, final question for you. Will you carry on, driving buses in light of what's happened here?
MOODY: I retired, Piers, I retired. At 18 years was enough.
MORGAN: This was the final straw for you, was it?
MOODY: Yes, yes, it was a big straw too.
MORGAN: Well, as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Moody, you did nothing wrong at all, and the blame should be attached to the thugs that did the beating. And I appreciate you coming on the show tonight. I wanted to say that to you face to face. I think the flack you're getting is ridiculous. You're a 64-year-old man, and you should not be expected to deal with these hoodlums. But I'm glad the authorities have caught up with them.
Thank you both very much indeed for joining us.
MCDERMOTT: Thank you.
MOODY: Thank you very much. Thank you.
MORGAN: Coming up next, the latest on the most recent terror warnings from al Qaeda. What was in the message intercepted from al Qaeda's leader?
Plus, what really happened in the deadly attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi? Erin Burnett will join me with a preview of her investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MORGAN: Tonight, new details on the terror threat that's triggered the closing of nearly two dozen U.S. embassies and consulates and has U.S. officials on edge. It's prompted by an intercepted message from al Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the second in command in Yemen. Al-Zawahiri's message is, quote, "do something."
Also alarming officials, the recent prison breaks in Pakistan, Iraq and Libya (INAUDIBLE) hundreds of terrorists. It raises a specter on the last attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi. And Erin Burnett takes a closer look at that in a special, "THE TRUTH ABOUT BENGHAZI," which airs tomorrow night at 10:00. And Erin, very timely your investigation. What are the key takeaways we can look forward to seeing tomorrow?
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": Well, first of all, what you're seeing right now with all these embassy closures, is definitely related to what we saw and what we didn't see in terms of a reaction in Benghazi. That they want to avoid this happening again. Quick to mention al Qaeda, quick to say, look, we know the when but we don't know the where, so we're going to close things down. You're seeing reaction now, the changes. But --
MORGAN: Is it an overreaction because of what happened before Benghazi and indeed before 9/11? Are they basically saying, we have to look like we're doing everything we can?
BURNETT: In a sense -- depends on who you ask. Some people say yes, it is an over reaction because you're telling al Qaeda basically, look. You don't actually have to do anything, and we're going to close all these embassies down. Plus, what happens once the window of warning is over, right? What do you do?
But that being said, I talked to the Adam Schiff, congressman in the House Intelligence committee today. He said the chatter they feel was - exceeded that, but before they saw at Benghazi and was similar to what they saw --
MORGAN: And also, you can't deny the level of intelligence here, where they have actually intercepted messages from al Zawahiri, the head of al Qaeda. (INAUDIBLE) in Yemen, ordered them to do something. These are the two top players, arguably, in al Qaeda, directly in contact, planning something big.
BURNETT: And that's what intelligence sources are saying. That this was more specific, this was not just a general, we're angry, we're upset, we want people around the world to be motivated to our cause, that this was much more specific.
They feel that it was -- and some people speculated, oh, this could mean there's a chemical attack or an unconventional attack, that's why they had to shut everything down. Because it wouldn't be caught by traditional measures - dog-sniffing - or dogs that could sniff bombs or machines. And they're saying, no, they don't think it was chemical, but obviously at this point, a lot of it is classified. So we don't know. MORGAN: Let's get to the Benghazi investigation. You got an interview with Geoff Porter. He was the man that briefed Ambassador Stevens -- obviously was killed that night -- on security. Let's watch a clip from that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Why was manpower so lacking in Benghazi?
GEOFF PORTER, PRESIDENT, NORTH AFRICA RISK CONSULTING: We're essentially talking about a CIA mission in Benghazi. Whose information -- the purpose was to collect information, to collect weapons, potentially. And they may have deliberately wanted to keep a low security profile.
BURNETT: So, because they didn't understand, they just underestimated the threat?
PORTER: That's right. But I think one of the problems in Benghazi at the time was there were so many different violent nonstate actors, armed groups, that the U.S. couldn't identify the threat. They couldn't distinguish which was a group threatening the United States' interest and which was simply a violent nonstate actor pursuing its own agenda. So, there was a real deficit of understanding, a real lack of situational awareness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, this sort confirms my sense about the Benghazi thing. It was just general chaos and disinformation and a lack of real understanding of what was going on on the ground.
BURNETT: Exactly. And that's leading into it. Of course, on the other end, there was what did they do about it, which is a separate issue. But leading in, this is exactly what happened. They couldn't tell one group from another. I mean, you'll see in the documentary, earlier in the morning, when Chris Stevens was there, he had seen men across the street from the compound taking cell phone pictures. He reported it to local police, but he went ahead with his schedule because you -- you don't know. It could be nothing. It could be something.
And as Jeff Porter who briefed him said, it was a situation where probably nothing would go wrong, but if it did, it would be catastrophic. And you'll hear General Hayden, former head of the CIA, Wesley Clark -- all of them talk about this.
You know, General Hayden goes so far as to say when he was talking to John King (ph) that he thinks there isn't a single person involved who doesn't have regrets about what they did and why they did it.
MORGAN: Of course -- of course, the key thing is what happens next to prevent it from happening again. And we are seeing in real time the -- the very extreme action that the American administration is now taking to try and prevent another Benghazi, aren't we? BURNETT: We -- we absolutely are. And -- and of course, and that goes to using the words Al Qaeda, because you know, that night when -- we'll go through exactly what happened, you know, in the situation room, when the president was briefed, when the White House and the Pentagon got that e-mail from the state department saying, this Islamic group, Ansar Al Sharia has claimed credit.
And yet, of course, as we all know, it took a very long time before that became the formal message out of this administration. So we'll talk about exactly why that happened and why there was that delay and -- and who knew what when.
It's just a part of what we worked on.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: And -- and in the end, where do you see the culpability?
BURNETT: You know, it goes in a few places. And I think there is some culpability on the administration. This was a White House that was aggressively running for re-election on a message of -- we have defeated Al Qaeda.
It's on the run. You know, I was standing in the board of Northern Mali last summer.
MORGAN: And I remember.
BURNETT: That night, the president gave, said it was at a fundraiser. And he Al Qaeda's on the run. And we were standing there instead (ph) on our program. It doesn't feel that way where we are right now.
So we definitely had a message. But in terms of a concerted cover-up and in trying to -- to mislead people. that seems to be taking a little bit too far.
But there are some real complaints about how they handled it that seemed very fair. But then you have the Republicans who have politicized this, when you're talking about people's lives.
And you know...
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: I mean, everyone -- everyone criticized (ph), haven't they, in the end...
BURNETT: Yes...
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: ...and on both sides and has been the problem. Your very moving interviews with some of the relatives of those who lost their lives and that really, I think, brings the human side here away from the politics. It's a very powerful investigation. It's called "The Truth about Benghazi," Erin Burnett, airs tomorrow at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Good to see you.
BURNETT: Good to see, Piers.
MORGAN: And looking so blooming, if I may say so.
BURNETT: Isn't that a nice way to put it?
MORGAN: Very blooming.
BURNETT: I'm rather large.
MORGAN: So blooming. You're blooming. Erin Burnett, good to see you.
BURNETT: All right, good to see you, Piers.
Coming next, the long road ahead for Ariel Castro's former captives, held prison over a decade. How can they rebuild their lives? I'll talk to the experts coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Ariel Castro's family today moving items out of the house of the man they call the monster of Cleveland. His fate is sealed. He'll spend the rest of his life behind bars.
And on Wednesday, his house of horrors will be destroyed forever, leveled to the ground. The three women that Ariel Castro help prisoner there -- a long journey to recovery is only beginning.
With me now, Dr. Frank Ochberg. He's their psychiatrist who testified for the prosecution at Castro's sentencing.
How important is it, Frank Ochberg, do you think to have this house of horrors torn to pieces for -- for the victims in particular?
DR. FRANK OCHBERG, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think it's a good move. Tim McGinty is the Cuyahoga county prosecutor. And I really got to know him and to love him in the course of this.
He wants to tear that down. I think the act of tearing it down is -- is something that's aggressive. It's -- and it also is changing that neighborhood.
And the neighbors are going to appreciate it. Whatever is done is going to be done there with taste. It's going to add value. It's going to take away a symbol and a reminder of something that we really want to forget.
MORGAN: I want to play you a clip from Michelle Knight, who spoke very movingly on Friday -- one of the three girls who was obviously kidnapped. This is what she said with Ariel Castro...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KNIGHT (ph): With the guidance of God, I will prevail and help others that suffered at the hands of others. Writing this statement gave -- gave me the strength to be a stronger woman.
After 11 years, I am finally being heard. And it's liberating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: It seemed very brave, didn't it? Michelle Knight there, first one to go to court, to make the statement in public. The other two girls decided not to do that. What did you make of -- of her performance and what she said?
OCHBERG: Piers, I was right there. I was eight feet away from her when she said it. She was flanked by women who were twice as large as she is physically.
But she's as big as all outdoors. I -- I found myself applauding spontaneously. I don't know if it was right to do that as a psychiatrist, a doctor in a courtroom.
But it was electrifying. And -- and I think she does something to and noble this tough -- robbed (ph), from being treated less than a human being in so many ways, to asserting humanity, dignity.
And Piers, she did so much for the others in that household. I don't know if all your -- if all your viewers understand. She delivered that baby.
MORGAN: Yes.
OCHBERG: The baby wasn't breathing. She breathed life into that baby. And she was the only one who had an idea of what needed to be done. And she did it all.
MORGAN: And there was a sense I felt in that courtroom, very dramatic scenes, when you were watching it live, Ariel Castro was diminishing before our very eyes, all that fake power that he had wielded over these three young women, disintegrating with every word that Michelle Knight said. She was almost reclaiming, if you like, the power.
OCHBERG: Well, she was. And when it was his turn to speak, it was really unbelievable. I think his lawyers were astounded that he rambled on, and he tried to make light of what he had done to -- to claim that there was harmony in that household.
And Piers, there are a lot of men like him. They don't capture other women and hold them there for a decade. But they hold their families hostage.
I think a lot of our viewers tonight are -- are feeling, would you recognize me? I've gone through this. I've been captured by a brutal father or stepfather or an uncle. And I can't tell my story. So these survivors -- they're telling a story. I -- I would estimate we're talking about millions of women and of men, boys.
Boys are subjected to this as well.
MORGAN: No, I absolutely agree. Frank, thank...
OCHBERG: Well...
MORGAN: ...thank you very much indeed for joining me, sir.
They spent a decade as prisoners. But what's next for Castro's former captives? Joining me now is psychologist Rebecca Bailey, personal therapist to kidnappings of other (ph), Jaycee Dugard and co- author of "Safe Kids, Smart Parents: What Parents Need to Do to Keep Their Children Safe."
Welcome to you, Rebecca Bailey. What do you think of -- particularly of what Michelle Knight said on Friday, in terms of being liberated by this?
How realistic is it that these three young women can be liberated in the near future?
REBECCA BAILEY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well -- well, I absolutely believe that they can be liberated. It's going to be a slow process. Her strength, her willingness to sit there and speak the way she did was just amazing and fabulous.
And for each one of the victims that go through situations like this, it's really an individualized decision as to whether they want to sit in the court with the person or not.
But what I saw for her was that tremendous courage you were both just talking about as well.
MORGAN: People have -- some people have suggested, perhaps very unfairly, but this was an example of the much vaunted Stockholm syndrome. Now, one of the reasons that these three women didn't collaborate earlier to break three is that they had a kind of weird hold to Castro, that he wielded above them and they responded to. What is your take on that?
BAILEY: You know, I think the Stockholm syndrome has -- has been overplayed on some levels. Jaycee Dugard is the one that taught me the most about how offensive for many victims it can be to consider that they actually fall in love with their captors.
It's an adaptation process. Now, certainly, there are components that we all understand that are in the so -called Stockholm syndrome. But really, that's so important to remember that people do what they need to do to survive, and to call it love, anything like a -- a maternal healthy or paternal healthy relationship is erroneous.
So that's -- that's my -- my input on that. MORGAN: Dr. Bailey, from -- from all your work with Jaycee Dugard there and many others, what is the -- the best advice you could give these three young women from Cleveland as they try and get back to normality in their lives?
BAILEY: Absolutely, to not let their past define them. There's going to be a period where the -- the focus is on them with press and media, et cetera. But to be able to go forward and let their life unfold in front of them, without carrying that with them, and that goes for that little girl Jocelyn (ph) as well.
We have to allow her to be OK. And hopefully, they have built a community around them of supporters that can help keep that goal in mind.
They -- they need to not let themselves be held back in the past. They've got a lot of grieving, a lot of work to go through but at their own pace, in their own way.
MORGAN: Well, to Rebecca Bailey, thank you very much indeed.
BAILEY: Thank you so much for having me.
MORGAN: Coming next, my exclusive interview with Elise Jordan. She's a widow of journalist, Michael Hastings, on her husband's life and work.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Michael Hastings was a brilliant young journalist whose life was cut currently short in a car crash in June. Michael joined me on the show last year.
It was his last appearance on the show. As you'll see, he was as passionate as ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASTINGS: I think there's many other reasons that Tray (ph) should have resigned besides who he's sleeping with, that's not his -- his wife. But -- but I just want to make a point here that the larger point that I've been making is that essentially, the media has played a role in protecting David Petraeus and promoting David Petraeus and mythologizing David Petraeus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Well, the people have spoken out about his life and death. But for the first time, we're going to hear now from his widow, Elise Jordan. She joins me exclusively.
Elise, good to see you.
ELISE JORDAN, MICHAEL HASTINGS' WIDOW: Thanks for having me.
MORGAN: You've been a regular on the show as well as well as Michael and incredibly sad, incredibly tragic. How are you, first of all?
JORDAN: Taking it day by day. I was blessed to have the time with him that I had. So I feel very lucky for that, and you know, just taking it day by day.
MORGAN: There have been, as there always are in these situations, wild conspiracy theories that he was chasing some hot story. Maybe connected to that is his late night car crash in Los Angeles, other theories, too.
Do you subscribe to any of this? Do you have any idea really what may have happened?
JORDAN: No, I have no doubt that he was pursuing a hot story. He always had at least five hot stories going. That was -- that was Michael.
So -- and he also -- there -- there will be published his profile of John Brennan (ph) in an upcoming issue of "Rolling Stone" probably in a couple weeks. But right now, the -- the LAPD still has an active investigation.
I don't really have anything to add. I -- you know, my gut here is that it was just a really tragic accident. And I'm very unlucky and the world was very unlucky.
MORGAN: He was a real one off. I mean, he -- the passion he brought that night on the show -- the (ph) tip (ph) of (ph) the (ph) show is only half of it. He ripped into Petraeus and all those defending him and so on.
It was very much his template. He was a passionate man, wasn't he?
JORDAN: Well, he loved -- you know, he loved to always challenge conventional wisdom. And that's what I think, you know, there was so much controversy surrounding the personal article.
And if people actually really read the article, it's less about, you know, the quotes here and there than it is the entire narrative that he brought together, which was challenging the narrative, the counterinsurgency was working in Afghanistan. And so with the publication of that article, you can really see where the trajectory of the Afghan war changed.
And he really made -- had such an impact.
MORGAN: Well, a (ph) huge impact. The "New York Times" after he died published an obituary which cast a bit of doubt on Michael's reporting. And you sprang to his defense, I thought in a magnificent way.
You wrote to the "New York Times" demanding that they retract some of these comments because you thought it was very unfair. Tell me about that. JORDAN: Well, it's absolutely ridiculous and totally classless. And I think that the "New York Times" just had a real -- has a real problem sometimes when other people get scoops in recognizing the contributions of other journalists.
And the obituary writer had bothered to go back and read the report, she would see that what she put out there actually was factually inaccurate. And so I definitely, I still feel very strongly that that should -- we should have a retraction, that clearly, the "New York Times" management can't step up to the plate and admit they made a mistake.
MORGAN: Yes, it was a pretty shocking behavior, I thought, in (ph) the "New York Times." They should just (ph) stomach (ph) as you were right and they were wrong.
And turning to the general news agenda since Michael's death, he'd love all this, wouldn't he? The NSA, Edward Snowden, and even all the chatter now, the intrusions (ph) -- this was right up his -- his wheelhouse?
JORDAN: No, I mean, absolutely. There isn't a more contentious time for national security reporters than right -- right now. I mean, there is --- the Obama administration has an ethic crackdown on national security reporters.
They're, you know, risking going to prison if they don't reveal their sources. They have, you know, launched investigations on war whistleblowers in the previous three administrations combined.
And so definitely, there was a climate of I feel like fear, of it made their job a -- it made Michael's job a whole lot more difficult. But it also motivated him more than ever to go out there and tell the truth and then, you know, challenge authority and to try and (ph) call for more transparency in government.
MORGAN: For those who pour (ph) scorn on that kind of investigative journalist and as many do, you know. It's -- it's a lonely business. What is it like to be married to somebody that was right in the thick of that?
I mean, it must be dramatic and occasionally pretty scary and all the other things that go with it?
JORDAN: Well, it made life really exciting. And it was just wonderful to be with such a passionate person who really cared so much. And you know, he cared so much for telling the stories that other people didn't want to tell.
And he always said they're like to choose a big target. If you're going to go after someone, you don't go after the grunt in the field. You choose your target big.
And that was what he felt was the -- you know, the fair way to go about his writing. MORGAN: There's a -- a paperback come out of the book actually that he was onto promote last on -- I -- I spoke to him, the operators, were wild and terrifying inside story of America's war in Afghanistan. Tell me about the book.
JORDAN: It's a really wonderful book. And to me, I think it will be remembered as the best narrative non-fiction of kind of this decade and these decades of war (ph) because it tells -- it is a story of when he went on the embed (ph) with General McChrystal. But it's much more than that.
It shows that the in-fighting (ph) in Washington, the disconnect between the guys on the ground who are fighting the way and the policymakers back in Washington who are completely disconnected from it.
MORGAN: When you look at, as I say, all the current stories and stuff, where do you think Michael would have drawn the line between what should be in the public domain and what shouldn't be, in terms of where you decide what's in the national interest to keep quiet and to publish?
JORDAN: Well, Michael -- I mean, he was a pretty big believer in radical transparency overall. But you know, in his previous commentary on Wikileaks, for example, you know, he is -- he was a supporter of Julian Assange.
But he felt that the redaction should have been taken more seriously and that mistakes were made and had they have been more careful in just secure (ph) -- and that's, you know, the heavy burden of these whistleblowers, if they're going to do it and if they're going to make a big statement, if they are going to, you know, release highly classified documents, it has to be absolutely perfect.
MORGAN: You a Yankees fan?
JORDAN: I'm not really but...
MORGAN: Because you're a New Yorker, right?
JORDAN: Now, I live in New York. But I'm a Mississippi girl. So I like the Braves.
MORGAN: Do you have a view on A-Rod, who's playing tonight? Not playing very well apparently but he has tonight and a hundred and $75,000 after being exposed as a cheat.
JORDAN: I don't think he really cares anymore. I think he could just care less. And you know, at this point, he's made a ton of money. He's -- set some records.
He feels like, oh, my legacy is set in another way. I could care less.
MORGAN: What would Michael have thought of him, do you think? Not a lot, I suspect. JORDAN: Yes, I don't think that he was really at the top of Michael's list of concerns in life. But you know, Michael was a believer in fairness.
And you know, I don't think he would have really approved of A- Rod necessarily but (ph)...
MORGAN: Were you surprised by the -- the incredible outpouring of attention that Michael's death got -- the tributes and accolades that came in (ph)?
JORDAN: Well, I think it's a real testament to his legacy and what he stood for, and you know, how -- what a passionate supporter he was of liberty, of human rights, of freedom, of the right to -- of the right to free speech. And so I was definitely -- meant so much to me, all the lovely thing that people -- and your tribute, thank you so much for that, too.
MORGAN: I just thought he was -- he is an incredible life force. I loved the passion that he brought to his journalism. I thought he was a brave and courageous man.
And it's -- it's just desperately sad -- I mean, sad for us, everyone in the media...
JORDAN: Yes.
MORGAN: ...and the viewers watching, who enjoyed him, particularly for you obviously. It was an honor. He was working with BuzzFeed amongst other people towards the end.
And to honor his legacy, they credited Michael Hastings' national security reporting fellowship in his honor. That's quite something.
JORDAN: I know. I'm so -- the BuzzFeed could not be more wonderful and more supportive. And I'm just -- I feel so blessed that Michael was a part of the BuzzFeed family and that they are still thinking of me and doing, you know, wonderful gestures like this to solidify his legacy as a premiere reporter, (inaudible).
MORGAN: Well, that's entirely what he was. And you're right to feel very proud of him. Elise, thank you so much...
JORDAN: Thank you.
MORGAN: ...for coming in. The paperback of "The Operators: A Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in Afghanistan" by the late great Michael Hastings. It's available now. It's good to see you.
JORDAN: Thanks.
MORGAN: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MORGAN: Tomorrow night, an extraordinary woman on a historic mission. Sarah Thomas is hoping to be the first BURNETT NFL official. There's a good chance she'll make it happen.
That story is much more than about sport. I'll talk to her tomorrow night. But that's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.
