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Florida Sinkhole Swallows Buildings; Whitey Bulger Found Guilty

Aired August 12, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Big breaking news out of Boston today. A jury has found James "Whitey" Bulger guilty. This jury in Boston in the last hour or so has convicted the former crime boss guilty of 31 out of the 32 federal counts he faced including racketeering, conspiracy and involvement with a number of murders.

Deborah Feyerick was inside that courtroom. She joins us now live in Boston.

Let's just begin with that initial reaction, Deb, when that verdict came down. Family members were in there. Obviously, Whitey Bulger was in there. What happened?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Whitey Bulger was in there. He walked in as he did every day, looked for family members who usually sit in the front row. Only his niece was there.

He turned, sat very stoically. He watched as the judge read the verdict privately to herself. And then he stood as that verdict was read. He was found guilty of 31 of the 32 counts, including racketeering, extortion, money laundering, and weapons charges.

But what was so fascinating was when it came time to go over the 19 murders, for some of the families, there was finally a sense of justice. For other family members, there was not. The jury found that evidence showed that he was involved in at least 11 of the murders. That was a unanimous decision they had to return.

But in seven of the murders, they said there simply wasn't enough evidence to show that Bulger had either acted on his own, was a co- conspirator, or aided and abetted. What's so fascinating is that testimony was government's eyewitnesses, his former henchmen who testified that Bulger had a role in this and Bulger had a role in that.

Apparently, the jury did not believe all of that testimony from these convicted felons. Seven family members did not get any sort of resolution. And one in the case of the Debra Davis, the 26-year-old girlfriend of Bulger's crime partner, the jury couldn't make any finding at all. They simply couldn't find unanimously whether, in fact, Bulger was involved or not involved.

You had this really strange sense in that courtroom as some of the family members clenched their fists and, yes, yes, and others simply bowed their head and looked at their laps and began to cry. It was so emotional, Brooke. It was something just looking at those who got justice and those who didn't and just sitting there almost stunned as really many of the family members were, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes. You mentioned Debbie Davis. She was one of the few who the jury couldn't find any kind of evidentiary connection between James "Whitey" Bulger and that death. As you mentioned, we heard from her brother, Steven Davis, just a few minutes ago outside that courthouse. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN DAVIS, BROTHER OF ALLEGED BULGER VICTIM: She knows I'm a fighter. In the end of this, I will be the last man standing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Steven Davis having a tough time finding words. Deborah Feyerick is with me, Ashleigh Banfield as well.

Ashleigh, I think, really to your point, Deborah's reporting that of these 19 killings, they found that he had a role in 11, but families such as the Davises not getting that that justice that they so badly craved.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. And you know what? You can feel in his DNA what he's been suffering through. And he was hoping for the resolution to that, that justice. It never goes away. You never get closure. But justice goes a long way to easing some of that torture that these family members go through.

And, you know, when he could speak to the press, Brooke, he said it isn't over. I'm going stateside. I'm going to the state level to see if I can get a state murder prosecution. And he might. Here's the problem. If this jury came to no finding, then there's a pretty good chance that the evidence in his sister's death is frayed and old and memories are gone and witnesses are dead.

That is often the case with these very old prosecutions. Sometimes, you can get that conviction and sometimes you just can't.

BALDWIN: Ashleigh Banfield, Deborah Feyerick, thank you both very much.

I want to bring in Sunny Hostin, Danny Cevallos.

And let me -- Danny, let me begin with you, springboard off of Ashleigh's point about this sense of justice and maybe being able to prosecute this on the state level. I know Oklahoma and Florida specifically may want to bring charges against him. You know, these are states with the death penalty. How likely is that, Danny?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's up to each individual state. They operate -- there is no double jeopardy prohibition because the federal government and the state governments are separate sovereigns for purposes of these charges. So if they decide to, they are not bound in any way by the federal -- by the federal court's decision here. They can choose to prosecute him under their own separate law. So whether or not they will or not is entirely up to them. They can choose to do so. The family may find justice in another state for that reason.

BALDWIN: Sunny, as we pointed out, you know, in watching this trial play out for the last two months there in Boston, we know that Whitey Bulger himself never testified. There is a possibility -- we now know that sentencing hearing date is September 13. What would be to Whitey Bulger's and his team's advantage to have him speak during that time?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He's looking at by my count life in prison.

He's already 83 years old. And so you would think that perhaps a judge would perhaps give him some leniency if he spoke and atoned for his crime. And that's usually why a defendant speaks. But this defendant in particular, given all of the allegations, given the convictions of 31 out of 32 counts, I suspect his fate has already been written.

So, you know, will he speak? Will he not? I don't know that if he speaks, it will help him. I will say this. What we will be seeing, I think, at the sentencing are all these family members talking about what these crimes have done to their family.

And I think that is really what the judge will be listening for, because we know that these families, Brooke, were in the courtroom almost every day, some of them. And as we just mentioned, some of them feel that they didn't get justice.

BALDWIN: Right. Sunny and Danny, thank you very much.

I'm actually just getting word Whitey Bulger's attorney is speaking now. Here he is outside the federal courthouse. Let's listen to that.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

HANK BRENNAN, ATTORNEY FOR WHITEY BULGER: We thought we were going to expose a little bit of government corruption. Little did we think that the government would expose more corruption than we ever could have.

During that time from the bottom all the way to the top, you saw the government bring out witnesses that had deals. Life. Money. And so at some point, hopefully this case is the beginning where people reflect a little bit on our government, ask our government questions about what happened and why, and look into why it's still going on today.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

J.W. CARNEY JR., ATTORNEY FOR WHITEY BULGER: Jim Bulger was very pleased at how the trial went and even pleased by the outcome. I don't think he expected that nine times the jury would come back and say not guilty or not proven. It was important to him that the government corruption be exposed and important to him that people see firsthand the deals that the government was able to make with certain people.

With that, as what he was looking for from a trial, he's very pleased.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Didn't he call it a sham? (OFF-MIKE)

CARNEY: He has a strong feeling that he should have been able to present his defense.

But presenting his immunity defense was only one of his goals in this trial. It's rare that you can achieve all of your goals. And so the fact that he was able to highlight the corruption that he was in the middle of, as well as the corrupt, obscene deals made with certain witnesses should be something that informs all the citizens about what happens behind the scenes in a federal prosecution.

QUESTION: There was no finding in the killing of Debra Davis, no finding. What do you conclude from that? If Bulger didn't kill Debra Davis or if there's no finding in that regard, what do you think happened?

Hank?

BRENNAN: Jay Carney and I were very pleased at the diligence of the jury, how they paid such attention throughout the trial, even some of the parts of the trial that were difficult and sometimes even boring.

The amount of time they spent reflecting in deliberation shows that this jury was the best group of people to ultimately make the decision regarding the verdict. The government pinned their hopes on these predicate offenses in many cases upon witnesses who we thought had an absolute lack of credibility, an extraordinary motive to lie, and were not guides that a reasonable person could follow to help find a conviction.

To ask a public or a jury to trust in whole witnesses that had such promises and inducements and such motives to lie, in some ways that's reflected itself in the verdict.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

BALDWIN: This has been fascinating because we have been listening to the defense co-counsel who obviously have been defending James Whitey Bulger through this whole thing.

And to hear the one word that jumped out at me, saying that he is pleased, he is pleased with the jury's finding is absolutely fascinating. They have found him guilty on 31 of the 32 counts he was facing. I want to bring in another voice. She knows a lot about Whitey Bulger. Phyllis Karas is on the phone. She authored the book "Brutal: The Untold Story of My Life Inside Whitey Bulger's Irish Mob," also wrote two other books about him, including her latest, "Where Is Whitey?"

So, Phyllis, just when you heard guilty on those major, major counts, your reaction?

PHYLLIS KARAS, AUTHOR: Well, it was just a relief to think that the jury believed these witnesses and that, you know, 11 out of 19, they proved the murders. That was extraordinary.

I hoped that that was exactly what was going to happen. When Kevin and I wrote the book "Brutal," it was mainly three murders that he discussed in the book, which was the Arthur "Bucky" Barrett and John McIntyre and Deborah Hussey. And all three of those did come through as proven. That was kind of a relief to me that they believed Kevin Weeks' testimony on that.

As far as Debra Davis, I think there is so much belief that it was Stevie Flemmi that did the murder, that that was almost to be expected. The whole thing has been heartbreaking for these victims to be in this court every day and hear these gruesome details. We depicted all those -- three of those murders in the book. It was painful to write it, never mind these victims to have to hear about their family, the families of these victims.

But it is a relief he was convicted of 11 of 19 of those, that he will absolutely be going to jail for the rest of his life unless they decide to try him in, you know, Florida, where there's a death penalty. But at this point, there's a sense of relief that it's almost over.

BALDWIN: That's right, Florida, possibly Oklahoma as well. We will see what happens on the state level, Phyllis.

(CROSSTALK)

KARAS: Especially with the Wheeler case, which they did prove.

BALDWIN: Exactly. Exactly.

But bigger picture, can you just remind all of us -- I remember when the story broke, remember he was found. The FBI put the big billboard up of the girlfriend, Santa Monica there. There they were with hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash stashed in this apartment. Now here we are. What is the legacy? What is his imprint, if you will, on just this world that he lived in?

(CROSSTALK)

KARAS: There's still so many questions. There were always so many -- hard to believe he was in Santa Monica all those years when he had spent so many of his years of his life setting up to be on the run. When we wrote "Where's Whitey?" we kind of went into what Kevin really thought he would be doing for all those years. To think he was sitting in an apartment in Santa Monica with the money hidden in the walls and the books that had been written about him in his bookcases, it just sounds so hard to believe. But that's the story. And that seems to be what has actually happened.

But I think it was a shock. When I got the phone call that he had been found, I could not believe it, especially when he was found two days after we published a book called "Where's Whitey?"

BALDWIN: Incredible. Incredible.

KARAS: There's still questions and there will always be questions that are probably not going to ever be answered about exactly how he survived on the run so long and exactly what went on all those years in Boston.

BALDWIN: The chapters have not been finished being written yet. As we know, he has a sentencing hearing in November. We will see what twists and turns that may take.

Phyllis Karas, thanks so much, again, your book, "Brutal: The Untold Story of My Life Inside Whitey Bulger's Irish Mob." Thank you.

Coming up next, totally switching gears. Taking you to Florida here. Swallowed up by the earth. Look at this, aerial footage of a 60-foot sinkhole ripped apart a resort near Walt Disney World, this whole condo complex. We just got video showing some of the walls crumbling. We will share that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Some absolutely terrifying moments for dozens of guests at a resort near Florida's Disney World. Watch this. A giant sinkhole 60- feet wide just opened up under this resort. You have one of the three-story buildings just began to collapse, sending guests scrambling to safety.

Just about three dozen people were able to make it out before this building crumbled and, amazingly, no injuries reported.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGGIE GHAMRY, WITNESS: One person had to break out of a window because the door frame collapsed. Him and his wife and an infant, he had to break the window just so that they could escape. Then there were windows breaking everywhere. One of the security guards ran up and was evacuating people, barging into their rooms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Maggie Ghamry, there she was. She was at this resort or in the area when the hole opened up. She's joining me now on the phone from Orlando. And also joining me, Chad Myers, because I want you to talk to Maggie and also explain what's going on with Florida. But we will get to that in a minute.

Maggie, I understand you weren't actually in the building that collapsed, but you were next door. What did you see and hear?

GHAMRY: Actually, we were in the building. We were in 104, room 104, building 104, so the side that collapsed completely. Our room is underground more than 50 feet.

We were in the kiddie pool. I had my purse inside. I left to go grab some Chinese food. And walking back into our room that's when all the banging and all the windows started to explode. I ran back with the Chinese friend. I told my friend and her kids to jump into the front seat, because I thought somebody was firing a gun, or breaking in a window, there was an altercation.

So we hightailed it with all the kids just sitting in the front seat to the security guard. I told him I think building 104 is -- there's a crime being committed. They said, no. Yes, ma'am, we have got some maintenance on the site. The building is collapsing.

And, of course, we were in disbelief. And we raced back to see if we could salvage any of our belongings. We had arrived today -- or just yesterday at 5:00.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Maggie, I don't know if anybody out there knows this. I didn't know this until I read it today, 17 claims of sinkholes per day in Florida over the past 10 years.

I owned a home two miles, two miles from where this collapsed about three or four years ago. I sold it. But I don't have it anymore. I never realized how much sink was going on in Florida. Did they tell you when you checked in, you know -- you know how there's always a sign, if a fire, go here, if a tornado, go here. Was there any kind of a sign that said if a sinkhole, go here?

GHAMRY: You know, no. There was plenty mention of a timeshare presentation, but no warnings for sinkholes. I never even knew what it meant to be a sinkhole. I have heard of it. But I never understood the phenomenon in full until yesterday.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Where are you right now?

GHAMRY: We're actually at the clubhouse of this resort. We're still being funneled through the system. We still don't have a place to stay. I went from a two-bedroom villa...

(CROSSTALK)

MYERS: Is the city like booked? You can't even get a hotel room to stay in and go to Disney?

GHAMRY: No.

Actually, last night, we got into a hotel room about 4:00 in the morning. And the hot water wasn't working. We were checked out this morning by 11:00. Now we went to Red Cross. They gave us a card for food and clothing, but it's not activated yet. Now we have itemized all of our belongings that were destroyed.

And we're waiting to see where they're going to put us, on this resort or at another resort. We were told these villas are kind of bottom of the barrel of this resort, that anything we get will be an upgrade.

BALDWIN: Oh, no.

GHAMRY: But, unfortunately -- yes. Unfortunately there's a lot of frustrated folks here with their kids and elderly parents. It's just pretty unbelievable.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: They need to bring Mickey and Cinderella and Ariel all to you all.

Maggie, we wish you well. We hope you can salvage some of this time with you and your family.

Chad, I guess back to you. We have been reporting these stories. Why do they keep happening in Florida? What is it about the terrain?

MYERS: Below Florida is a layer of limestone. That's a rock. But the acid rain that's going through the soil into the limestone is dissolving the lime, dissolving the calcium. When that happens you get a bridge under the house or the road, whatever it might be.

When this acid rains through and gets into this limestone there becomes a hollow under here. When that hollow begins thin enough, everything falls in. That's where the sinkhole happened. There have been some sinkholes on property of Disney. There is not on Disney proper. A couple miles to the west.

Here's downtown Disney right there. The sinkhole may be four or five miles west of there in Lake County, the Summer Bay resort right through here. My house was three miles southeast of there. If you look at that -- look at that. Look at that right there. Those were all old sinkholes. Look at Disney. It's a pretty good piece of property. There are some sinkholes. But this is a more sandy soil. Back out to the west just a few miles, a clay soil.

So the sinkholes are out there, the very volatile ones. Things do sink in Florida. But if it goes down a foot a week, that's OK. It goes down eight feet in an hour, that's the ones you really have to get away from, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Gosh. You feel for her and those kids in the kiddie pool with their Chinese food and here comes a sinkhole. Chad, thank you very much.

MYERS: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Coming up after the break, we have just secured an interview with the brother who is standing outside of that Boston federal courthouse who was very emotional, very choked up and trying to find the words. It was his sister who the jury couldn't find a connection, couldn't find evidence as far as whether or not Whitey Bulger had killed her. He will join me live from Boston, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news here.

As we have learned today, James "Whitey" Bulger, mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger found guilty of 31 of the 32 counts he -- and part of all of this, he was accused of killing 19 people. The jury today ruled he was linked to killing 11 of them. Not included in that 11 is a woman by the name of Debbie Davis.

Her brother Steven Davis is joining me live in Boston to walk through what I'm sure, sir, has been an emotional day for you.

Steven, if you can, just tell me, how are you doing?

DAVIS: A little upsetting. A little upsetting.

But I'm just trying to figure out how the N.F., which was no finding, what that means. The final verdict on it, I didn't like it, because I don't understand it, because everything else was guilty, you know, and not guilty.

And then my sister's case came up and that was no finding. And it's a hard -- it's hard to digest with all the years since '81. I have been looking for answers, searching for answers, and I come out with an N.F. And it's not good enough. I mean, personally, in my heart, I do not believe that he physically murdered her. But I do believe he conspired or was partnership with that murder. And I feel the same way I did back in '81. I have no justice no -- I don't know.

BALDWIN: Mr. Davis, if I may just jump in, and so everyone sort of understands your sister's story, so from what I understand, she was -- she was a teenager. She was 17 when she met. And did she begin dating one of Whitey Bulger's associates and then some years later, just disappeared?

DAVIS: Yes.

And that's the feelings I'm dealing with over the years. And I guess, if I don't get resolution to this whole thing, I feel I'm going to take that to the grave. And I don't feel I deserve to do that. I put up a big fight for justice, for answers, or some people say closure.

I don't believe in closure. But I believe that I deserve more than an N.F. And I'm disappointed. And I do want to say that I do not believe, I don't care who gets mad at me for what I believe and what I feel, because I went through the whole case from the beginning. I don't believe that he hands-on physically murdered her.

I believe he had no problem with talking about the 18 or 19 murders. But he -- I don't believe he murdered Deborah Hussey. (CROSSTALK)